XSF Discussion - 2018-04-23

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  391. daniel Can a muc member revoke their own membership?
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  395. jonasw probably not?
  396. daniel I don't find anything specific related to that in the xep. Maybe some servers just allow the admin command if the removed user matches user who runs the query
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  398. Zash Isn't membership editing limited to the owner(s)?
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  401. daniel Yes that's what I meant. Maybe some specific implementations allow that if the member you want to edit is the requesting member
  402. daniel But it's certainly not explicitly mentioned in the xep
  403. winfried Well, that may be a GDPR issue... :-(
  404. Ge0rG daniel: that's only half a step away from allowing members to make themselves an owner ;)
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  406. jonasw winfried, not sure. the owner is responsible for the members list.
  407. jonasw much of this might boil down to the question whether users have the right to have their data deleted from other peoples data.
  408. Zash An exception for members leaving the group makes sense
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  410. jonasw like, my roster is *my* data, are you allowed to force me/my server operator to delete your JID from my data?
  411. winfried jonasw: storage and membership are two different processings
  412. jonasw winfried, where’s the difference?
  413. Zash jonasw: That doesn't happen tho
  414. jonasw Zash, what doesn’t happen?
  415. Zash Just updating the subscription state to none
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  417. pep. Zash: yeah makes sense, there could be an exception for that
  418. winfried jonasw: showing membership, relaying messages, storing messages
  419. jonasw Zash, I think somebody argued that even storing PII like the JID could be an issue.
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  425. Zash Group creator storing other people's jids?
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  427. winfried jonasw Ge0rG pep. if you are able look at the document I send to the members list before the meeting of 12:30, it would be very helpful
  428. Zash Ge0rG: Easy MUC leaving ?
  429. jonasw winfried, I don’t see a document on the members list
  430. jonasw are you subscribed?
  431. Zash I saw it
  432. jonasw meh, restarting my MUA
  433. jonasw there it is!
  434. Ge0rG jonasw: Akonadi FTW!
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  436. jonasw Ge0rG, indeed. akonadictl restart and 5s later it’s on order. jokes aside, it has some weird troubles with switching networks while the notebook is suspended :/
  437. pep. .odt aww, you're going to force me to use the big guns
  438. winfried Zash: yes, storing a JID as MUC owner is a 'processing' in the context of the GDPR, but it not a very problematic processing
  439. jonasw pep., I can put a .pdf somewhere
  440. pep. Nah I have libreoffice it's fine
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  442. pep. I just never use it
  443. Zash No .txt? :)
  444. winfried sorry about that, I just wanted to go to bed after working 14 hours straight yesterday and didn't want to figure out how I would be able to put that table in the Wiki (what I would have preferred)
  445. jonasw wiki tables are a PITA indeed
  446. jonasw maybe Zash can apply some pandoc magic to convert this to mediawiki markup?
  447. winfried :-D be my guest!
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  449. Zash Pandoc probably reads odt, so sure
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  457. daniel we don't have to make that about gdpr. but if clients tend to show the entire member list (not just the currently joined users) we should give users the ability to actually 'leave' a muc
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  459. jonasw daniel, indeed
  460. pep. daniel: agreed
  461. Zash There being three or so separate lists is fun too
  462. jonasw three separate lists?
  463. daniel owner, members admins
  464. Ge0rG winfried: awesome table, looks good to me
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  466. jonasw I can’t parse the table.
  467. jonasw speaking of which, I might not be very useful in todays meeting.
  468. pep. I'm on my phone with nothing installed for that ATM (still in bed :-°)
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  470. jonasw pep., I can upload you a pdf, as I said
  471. pep. It can wait that I get on the laptop
  472. jonasw pep., https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/GDPR-table.pdf
  473. pep. Unless..
  474. jonasw pep., but I won’t let you :>
  475. winfried jonasw: mentally parse?
  476. jonasw winfried, yeah
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  479. jonasw not your fault though, I’m tired and exhausted for unrelated reasons.
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  481. winfried jonasw: any amount of coffee that would resolve the issue?
  482. Maranda Lazy pep. it's past 10
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  484. jonasw winfried, I’m caffeine-free for several months now; also, no :)
  485. pep. Maranda: BST not CEST
  486. Maranda Pft then it's past nine still lazy
  487. Ge0rG took a 1000km trip last week to grab his coffee machine.
  488. jonasw that’s some serious dedication!
  489. jonasw or addiction.
  490. Maranda Indeed
  491. Maranda I think more the latter
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  493. Maranda But could be dedicated addiction
  494. Ge0rG I can stop any time I want!1!!
  495. Zash Why would you tho
  496. Maranda Or dedication to addiction
  497. pep. winfried: "how to safeguard on remote server?", that also came across last time, what falls on the recipient's consent exactly?
  498. Maranda Whichever sounds better
  499. pep. Can we clarify this during the meeting
  500. Ge0rG I think we don't need to ensure explicit consent to s2s delivery.
  501. winfried pep.: yes, please note questions like these, the thing is still subject to improvement
  502. winfried Ge0rG: agree, but *only* if no additional processing is done on the remote server :-(
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  504. Ge0rG winfried: technically, the remote server is subject to the GDPR because you forward it data from EU citizens, right? ;)
  505. Maranda looks at the calendar
  506. Maranda places a big red cross
  507. Ge0rG winfried: I wonder if we need contracts or in-band XML markup for that
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  509. Maranda puts enphasis on the red and big
  510. jonasw winfried, you wrote "implicit permission" for user metadata (presence) in grounds for processing; but isn’t approving a presence subscription explicit permission?
  511. jonasw Ge0rG, both
  512. Ge0rG jonasw: it's explicit approval but implicit data sharing permission, I'd say
  513. jonasw hmkay
  514. winfried Ge0rG: yes, I have the same line of thought, the question if it is subject to the GDPR is not settled yet, and probably not relevant at all
  515. winfried jonasw: yes, correct, plz take notes
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  517. winfried has to do some other job now
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  526. pep. And Maranda, it's not because you might have obligations that I also have to get up before 9 :p
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  528. Maranda Lazy
  529. Maranda Just lazy
  530. pep. Sure
  531. pep. I want my sleep!
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  626. jonasw j
  627. jonasw .
  628. jonasw GDPR in 2?
  629. winfried yes
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  632. jonasw winfried, what do you mean by "can we safeguard XY on remote server?"?
  633. jonasw do you mean "can we ensure that on remote server?"?
  634. winfried jonasw: ensure
  635. jonasw right
  636. winfried pep. Ge0rG present?
  637. pep. !
  638. Ge0rG hi there
  639. winfried *bangs* the gavel
  640. jonasw quick announcement: I’ll have a hard cutoff today at 13:30 CEST due to a meeting with my master thesis supervisor
  641. winfried jonasw: he can wait, this is more important :-D
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  644. jonasw I’ll tell him that, I bet he’ll be convinced ;-)
  645. winfried shall we from out the table I have build?
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  647. jonasw winfried, so, we’re plowing through Q1.1e today?
  648. jonasw seems good
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  650. winfried Any questions / amendments / additions
  651. winfried ?
  652. jonasw not right now
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  654. winfried Ok, then lets tackle the issues top to bottom ;-)
  655. jonasw let’s do that
  656. winfried We need to inform about the processing
  657. jonasw the EULA thing in the credentials row seems to be a technical TODO for the EULA-XEP
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  660. Ge0rG jonasw: EULA doesn't imply EULA XEP. Yet.
  661. winfried jonasw: what do you mean with "EULA-XEP"? A XEP containing a standardized EULA?
  662. pep. winfried, additions, what I asked this morning
  663. jonasw winfried, a XEP which defines how clients obtain the key points from a servers EULA. it would (in my mind) also contain *defaults* which apply to every xmpp server.
  664. jonasw (that would be among them)
  665. pep. Once the message hits s2s, is it on the recipient's consent, for whatever reason. Unless it's a service on the other end not a person
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  667. Ge0rG jonasw: did you check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P3P for overlaps?
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  669. jonasw no
  670. Ge0rG pep.: I claim it's fair game to tell your users that whatever you send to a remote server is subject to that server's ToS
  671. pep. Ge0rG, but they wouldn't know what server, would they
  672. pep. I mean
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  674. pep. I can, you can, my mom doesn't
  675. pep. I can, you can, my mom doesn't know
  676. jonasw with the EULA XEP it *would* be possible to have your client show you that ToS.
  677. Ge0rG pep.: by sending a message to mark@facebook.com your messages are subject to facebook ToS.
  678. pep. Ge0rG, but in her client it's written "Mark"
  679. jonasw but I think it’s even more fair game (and less critical) to say that "a message you send to someone is handled like the recipient wants, not like you want"
  680. Ge0rG pep.: show me a client that doesn't expose the JID of newly added users
  681. pep. jonasw, I agree with that, not sure how to expose it to users
  682. pep. Ge0rG, ok, now explain that to users
  683. jonasw pep., I think that’s common sense.
  684. jonasw Ge0rG, once we’re at the point of invitation URLs we might get rid of most of that. I wouldn’t rely on that.
  685. pep. Explain to users that's it's 2 different things, localpart and domain, and not just one thing
  686. Ge0rG jonasw: I disagree
  687. pep. I agree with jonasw
  688. jonasw fight!
  689. Ge0rG "somebody who claims to be called jonas wants to add you to their contacts. [yes] [no] [wtf is jonas]"
  690. vanitasvitae has joined
  691. Ge0rG now stop bike-shedding please.
  692. Ge0rG we've got real business to accomplish here.
  693. pep. Just for completeness, "Hey foo, I gave your details to bar, he's going to add you" *foo receives a contact request from _bar_* [yes] [no]
  694. pep. back to 1.1e?
  695. winfried takes my eyes of the chatwindow and sees a catfight upon return
  696. jonasw :D
  697. jonasw meows innocently
  698. lnj has joined
  699. jonasw so what do we have?
  700. winfried I propose to postpone this discussion and start a top: informing the user upon account creation
  701. SamWhited has left
  702. jonasw +1
  703. winfried that doesn't need a EULA-XEP
  704. Ge0rG winfried: maybe it does, if the user does IBR
  705. winfried but a standard/model EULA may come in here handy
  706. winfried Ge0rG: isn't IBR evil and banned?
  707. jonasw yeah
  708. jonasw no, IBR isn’t banned
  709. jonasw it’s even getting developed
  710. jonasw see XEP—0401 for example.
  711. pep. And maybe in a not-so-distant future clients will support data forms
  712. winfried OK
  713. Ge0rG So there are different things we might understand under "EULA XEP": - a template for writing server EULAs - a protocol for informing the client about the EULA URL - a protocol for informing the client about specific EULA details - an s2s protocol to let remote users know of your EULAs
  714. la|r|ma has joined
  715. jonasw in my mind it’s a mix of the first and the third point
  716. winfried Ge0rG: +1
  717. pep. Ge0rG, I was kind of including all the above
  718. jonasw yeah, kinda all of those actually
  719. pep. Maybe less focused on s2s at first, but that was mentioned a few times
  720. ThibG has joined
  721. winfried Will that be 1 XEP or 4?
  722. jonasw do we need to figure out the formalities of that XEP in this meeting?
  723. Ge0rG strictly speaking, we don't need any of those, except #2 for IBR
  724. pep. I think the direction is good
  725. winfried Ge0rG: +1
  726. Ge0rG So I suggest we skip out the EULA topic
  727. Zash Template / guidelines for writing an EULA sounds like an informal XEP if anything
  728. Ge0rG Zash: 👍
  729. SamWhited has joined
  730. pep. Ge0rG, the s2s thing, how do you do that without a XEP?
  731. pep. Same for 3. actually
  732. pep. But yes I agree the details of the XEP can be done outside this meeting
  733. Ge0rG pep.: my point is: we haven't yet established the need for any EULAs but the ones between a user and their server
  734. Zash Template / guidelines for writing an EULA sounds like an informational* XEP if anything
  735. winfried Summary to solve first block: template EULA + protocol for informing client of EULA URL for IBR
  736. Ge0rG pep.: and until there is a legal requirement to have remote EULA consent dialogs, we don't need an s2s EULA XEP
  737. pep. ok ok
  738. winfried correct? Then we can move to the second blob
  739. jonasw +1
  740. Ge0rG Otherwise we'll have to maintain a list of remote EULAs the user has accepted and block access to any other domains. Ain't that great?
  741. pep. Ge0rG, not saying it is, at all :/
  742. winfried Metadata in C2S context
  743. winfried I guess we need to inform server operators about the limits here
  744. Ge0rG winfried: good point.
  745. Ge0rG winfried: so we need a second document aimed at server operators outlining the limits
  746. pep. yep
  747. winfried yes
  748. jonasw yes
  749. SamWhited has left
  750. pep. Ok so 1.1e really is "come up with that document"
  751. winfried I guess we need also mention this in the EULA template
  752. winfried but do we need to communicate any standardized EULA clauses to the clients here or a link to the EULA?
  753. ludo has left
  754. winfried I guess maybe keep the link visible
  755. jonasw both is good
  756. winfried (and handle changes)
  757. jonasw wtih both I mean a combination of both
  758. jonasw that’s essentially whta the EULA-XEP originally was about
  759. winfried third Blob
  760. Zash eula { url, registered clauses ... }
  761. winfried Metadata in S2S context
  762. Ge0rG with standardized EULA clauses, we are really in the P3P territory and somebody should have a hard look at that prior work
  763. jonasw I think all the "how to ensure on remote servre" things can be answered with "not".
  764. jonasw Ge0rG, I’ll put that on my todo.
  765. jonasw but I can’t promise anything
  766. winfried Ge0rG: I don't know *how* standardized that has to be
  767. winfried But P3P sure is a good thing to look at
  768. Ge0rG winfried: me neither. I'd say that having a human-readable ToS template is a good first approximation for now
  769. winfried Ge0rG: +1
  770. marmistrz has left
  771. Ge0rG unless the current s2s blob makes us formalize enforceable s2s requirements
  772. Guus has left
  773. Ge0rG which I hope to avoid at any cost
  774. winfried jonasw: ensuring remote server, can't be done on a technical level
  775. jonasw winfried, exactly
  776. jonasw and on a legal level it’s at least questionable.
  777. winfried (if the data is readable, ik can leak)
  778. jonasw is it the responsibility of the service operator to ensure that all s2s peers comply?
  779. Ge0rG winfried: it's possible to enforce on a technical level that the claimed s2s server's policy matches the user's requirements
  780. Zash Is it not enough to say that communication with remote peers are up to them, the user consentend when they sent a remote-addressed stanz
  781. jonasw I’d even go as far as "sends any stanza to a user which is not themselves"
  782. Ge0rG I see three outcomes: - we can't / won't enforce any s2s behavior / compliance claims - every server needs to advertise whether they comply with GDPR - P3P style fine-grained formal description
  783. jonasw because even on the same server users might’ve opted in to MAM while you didn’t
  784. winfried I am in doubt now
  785. pep. jonasw, that could make sense
  786. winfried Ge0rG: first one, we may say: transfer is obvious to other server and part of the service the user requested, so leave it
  787. Ge0rG winfried: does that apply both to EU and thrid contries based servers?
  788. winfried but then we come in the realms of forwarding my mail to gmail
  789. winfried Ge0rG: yes
  790. Ge0rG does it need to be obvious to the user where the server is hosted?
  791. lnj has left
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  794. winfried Ge0rG: good question, don't have a definitive answer to that: transfer outside the EU needs to be mentioned in the EULA, but the legal demands for S2S inside the EU are the same as outside the EU (in the context we have now)
  795. winfried - "- every server needs to advertise whether they comply with GDPR" - that may not be needed, advertise 'no secondary use / profiling' would suffice!
  796. winfried - "- P3P style fine-grained formal description " is in my opinion an overshoot (but that is an opion)
  797. Ge0rG winfried: so I suppose just covering the possibility of EU and third-country transfer in the EULA is sufficient?
  798. winfried Ge0rG: I *guess* so, would be interesting to take to court though...
  799. pep. hmm, can we come back to user-metadata C2S for a sec, I'm trying to find points to write down, but apart the TODO: document for server operators, I don't see much
  800. pep. The EULA XEP is also mentioned in every step concerning C2S for now
  801. winfried pep.: also publish a link to the EULA, needs to stay available + system for versioning the EULA...
  802. pep. I was hoping to include versioning into the XEP, not yet sure how/if really needed
  803. jonasw and notifying the user of changes
  804. pep. yeah that as well
  805. winfried But do we want to reside on the most minimal version of S2S: inform it can happen, don't ensure anything on the remote server
  806. lumi has left
  807. pep. Inform *s2s* can happen?
  808. Guus has left
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  811. winfried pep.: yes
  812. jonasw winfried, do we have a choice?
  813. winfried If it is obvious to the user it is handled by an other server with other legal status, it is ok like that, but we had that 'does my mother understand' catfight.. that is relevant here
  814. lnj has left
  815. pep. I'd be enclined to even say to the user "careful your messages may be considered differently once you send any stanza to a user which is not you", as jonasw mentioned above
  816. pep. So even C2S
  817. jonasw winfried, I don’t think we can make that obvious
  818. jonasw TLDs are not a safe indicator for that, IPs are a bit better, but not available to the client.
  819. pep. +1 to that ^
  820. jonasw unless it does SRV lookup for the service itself
  821. jonasw which may easily yield you a geo-located response with your closest entry ponit to the cluster
  822. jonasw so it would look as if it was EU from within the EU, but in fact the servers are partially outside the EU
  823. jonasw (DNS round-robin could case something similar with less fancy efforts)
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  827. winfried I don't think we need to handle inside EU and outside the EU differently here: both are allowed if it us needed the perform the servers the user requests
  828. jonasw TL;DR: we can’t really show that to the user and have to assume the worst.
  829. Andrew Nenakhov has left
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  831. winfried The issue is, do we need to tell the user if more is done with the data then is needed for performing the service the user requested?
  832. jonasw I don’t know.
  833. pep. I think we do, yes
  834. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  835. pep. Well legally I don't know
  836. Ge0rG winfried: I'd say we need something like "messages sent to users on other servers are subject to those servers data usage policies"
  837. Ge0rG + yadda yadda non-EU countries
  838. pep. + other user's settings?
  839. Andrew Nenakhov has left
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  841. winfried + & + +1 ;-)
  842. pep. wat wat
  843. Ge0rG pep.: two different statements, first about other users -> their archival config, second the above one
  844. Ge0rG I'll make an attempt at writing an EULA once I have the time. In a month or so
  845. jonasw s/to users on other servers/to other users/;s/to those servers data usage policies/to the policies the those users agreed to, which may be more liberal than the policies you agreed to/
  846. pep. you still have a month and 2 days before GDPR, you're safe
  847. pep. yes I'd prefer jonasw's version
  848. lnj has left
  849. pep. I don't know if that holds legally, but that's a bit more thorough
  850. jonasw I don’t either
  851. winfried So no need for a S2S EULA XEP?
  852. pep. If we have this kind of disclaimer I don't think so?
  853. mhterres has joined
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  855. pep. Though, we were at "metadata"
  856. pep. Not data, yet
  857. pep. But I guess that still holds
  858. winfried I would *like* to know it, but is it needed for the GDPR? I doubt it.
  859. winfried maybe write a XEP like that and advertise it as 'good practice'?
  860. pep. winfried, probably implicit consent with roster subscriptions, or user joining MUCs etc.
  861. Ge0rG pep.: I think everything said above also holds true for data
  862. pep. Ge0rG, same
  863. winfried Ge0rG: +1
  864. jonasw Ge0rG, +1
  865. pep. Do we go with Ge0rG or jonasw's version?
  866. rion has joined
  867. jonasw if the "once you send it to the recipient, the recipient is responsible" holds, we’re good with it I think
  868. Ge0rG jonasw had the better polished wording
  869. pep. good
  870. winfried everything said here holds on the content too, except for MAM storage
  871. jonasw Δt=-6m
  872. pep. winfried, how does it not include MAM
  873. jonasw winfried, how’s MAM storage different?
  874. pep. Plan for next?
  875. winfried that one is legitimate interest of third party (maintaining a log)
  876. winfried (art 6.1f)
  877. Ge0rG winfried: with the receiver being the third party?
  878. pep. winfried, third-party as is recipient? That falls under "messages send to other users are subject to policies those users agreed to"
  879. winfried yes
  880. jonasw what pep. says
  881. pep. winfried, third-party as is recipient? That falls under "messages sent to other users are subject to policies those users agreed to"
  882. jonasw I gotta run in a few mins, plan for next?
  883. winfried jonasw: yes
  884. jonasw I don’t have time tomorrow or on Wed
  885. winfried thursday same time?
  886. jonasw Thu or Fri would work, usual time
  887. jonasw Thu 12:30 CEST
  888. pep. Thu same time worksforme
  889. jonasw Ge0rG, ^
  890. Valerian has left
  891. Ge0rG +1 on either
  892. jonasw it’s settled then
  893. jonasw anything else?
  894. winfried Thu 12:30 CEST
  895. winfried Good work again!
  896. pep. We've covered credentials, User metadata/data (C2S/S2S) then
  897. jonasw thanks all!
  898. jonasw heading out now
  899. winfried pep.: much applies to content to
  900. winfried jonasw: good luck!
  901. pep. yes, "data"
  902. pep. ah it's called content
  903. pep. ok
  904. pep. hmm, instead of "messages", we should say "Stanza" probably?
  905. winfried pep.: if you mail the logs, then I will try to update the schedule
  906. winfried pep.: +1
  907. pep. Or something that the end-user can undertand
  908. Zash I pandoc'd this https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR/Table if that's fine
  909. pep. instead of stanza
  910. winfried Zash: yes, that would be great!
  911. pep. Zash, nice
  912. SamWhited has joined
  913. winfried Any possibilities to add lines between the fields?
  914. winfried Zash: it *IS* great, thanks a lot!
  915. Zash I don't know, I'm not /that/ familiar with mediawiki syntax.
  916. winfried Zash: I will have look myself otherwise...
  917. Zash Please do, it's a wiki after all :)
  918. winfried Zash: :-D
  919. pep. Zash, do I include you in the participants? :)
  920. Zash pep.: Maybe a little? I barely follow this tho.
  921. pep. winfried, today's minutes compress well :P
  922. jubalh has joined
  923. winfried pep.: I also took some notes myself, but they are not objective ;-)
  924. SamWhited has left
  925. winfried Zash: lines added...
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  927. pep. winfried, https://bpaste.net/show/23e279a44f9e
  928. pep. I'm going to send this
  929. winfried pep.: great!
  930. daniel has left
  931. pep. I'll include a link to the table as well
  932. winfried pep.: missing the 'inform server operators' from the logs ;-)
  933. pep. at what point
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  935. winfried [12:53:14] <winfried> I guess we need to inform server operators about the limits here
  936. pep. I meant, where does that go
  937. pep. what limits
  938. moparisthebest has joined
  939. winfried It is about the limits of using art 6.1b and 49.1b
  940. pep. Also I should include Ge0rG's points on the EULA XEP
  941. pep. And that it won't be tackled during this meeting
  942. winfried so it is a limit to what processing can be handled with this EULA template
  943. pep. Right
  944. jere has joined
  945. winfried Have to go now, other business to attend...
  946. winfried thanks, pep.
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  1347. dwd That was an easy email to write. :-)
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  1353. Zash Impressive diversity in formulating your statements.
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  1355. dwd Repetition is a powerful argument of its own.
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  1366. jonasw lol
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  1405. Ge0rG I suppose everyone is free to pick their weapons
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