XSF Discussion - 2018-04-26

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  252. edhelas damn
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  270. edhelas just had to restart nginx …
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  278. pep. reload*
  279. pep. Don't restart for nothing
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  282. edhelas yeah that is what I didn't understood
  283. edhelas reload didn't worked
  284. edhelas I have to check
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  370. winfried GDPR meeting?
  371. pep. Give me a minute!
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  373. winfried only one?
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  379. Dave Cridland Do the minutes from the GDPR meetings conform to the GDPR?
  380. pep. !
  381. pep. Dave Cridland, I only report public discussions, so I assume so
  382. pep. Maybe mailman could put a few more disclaimers when subscribing though
  383. winfried Dave Cridland: of course not, the biggest leaks are at the plumbers house!
  384. jonasw I’m there, just a sec
  385. jonasw .
  386. jonasw now I’m there
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  390. winfried Ge0rG present?
  391. winfried is not waiting for GeOrG and banging the gafel
  392. jonasw \o/
  393. pep. okay
  394. winfried We did a splendid job on metadata last time, most of it is 1 to 1 applicable to [stanza|user provided] content too
  395. pep. yep
  396. winfried The only thing that needs a bit of consideration IMHO is MAM
  397. jonasw why?
  398. pep. I thought we already settled on that
  399. pep. Apart from the TODO items
  400. winfried all processing is done under article 6.1b / 49.1b except for MAM, when using your own archive, it is 6.1a (consent) and the storage at somebody else should be a case of 6.1f (legitimate interest of third party)
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  403. winfried are you still there?
  404. pep. I agree for 6.1a for own archives, and I see the logic for 6.1f, but that goes against what we said no?
  405. jonasw I’m still there
  406. pep. That messages sent to a recipient are this under this recipient's consent
  407. jonasw I don’t see why other peoples archive isn’t covered by "messages sent to other users are subject to policies those users agreed to"
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  410. winfried jonasw: good point
  411. pep. winfried, I fear it's not only MAM we'd have to treat differently if we went that way
  412. winfried that is indeed a result of consciously transfering the data to the other entity
  413. winfried so, indeed skip the 6.1f part (and from the table, plz put it in the minutes)
  414. pep. ok
  415. winfried So, left is: ensure 6.1a is taken care of in MAM, aka, consent and of by default...
  416. winfried ... and possibility to withdraw consent
  417. pep. Right
  418. winfried and that one was already on the technical ToDO ;-)
  419. pep. "Right to erasure" is already more or less implemented right?
  420. jonasw pep., depends
  421. pep. Maybe I'm skipping steps
  422. jonasw there’s no way to truncate MAM via protocol currently.
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  425. jonasw Holger argued that it’s requested so rarely that it isn’t needed to encode in protocol and manual handling is entirely feasible
  426. pep. jonasw, hmm, ok, I was thinking about the entire account
  427. jonasw pep., that’s truncation
  428. jonasw or do you mean non-MAM content, too?
  429. pep. everything
  430. jonasw right
  431. jonasw we don’t have that
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  433. jonasw but that’s probably okay-ish to defer to manual operator intervention at this stage.
  434. pep. When you request account deletion, what's being deleted?
  435. Holger jonasw: Actually I just mentioned it's requested rarely without argueing for anything :-)
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  438. Holger jonasw: I wouldn't mind such a feature at all, esp. if we manage to keep it simple.
  439. jonasw Holger, sorry, lost in translation :(
  440. pep. I don't think prosody keeps anything does it?
  441. winfried Truncating an entire account and truncating your MAM should be possible separate form each other
  442. jonasw winfried, agreed
  443. pep. winfried, sure
  444. jonasw pep., I’m rather sure that prosody won’t delete HTTP upload-ed files
  445. jonasw Holger, my idea was something like a disco#info feature + <iq><mam-truncate/></iq>, which simply drops all of your MAM archive.
  446. winfried jonasw: good point
  447. jonasw I suggest that we put together a list of user data which is currently commonly held as a guideline for operators
  448. jonasw - HTTP Uploaded files - MAM contents - Offline messages (if separate from MAM) - Roster - XML Private Storage - PEP
  449. winfried jonasw: yes, can also be an important part for an EULA
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  451. Holger jonasw: Sounds good to me. But people *will* want more features for sure, so maybe we should clarify right from the start whether or not we'll resist adding them.
  452. jonasw - HTTP Uploaded files - MAM contents - Offline messages (if separate from MAM) - Roster - XML Private Storage - PEP - Ephemerally cached stuff (last presence stanza)
  453. Holger jonasw: Because if we end up with more features anyway, we might want different syntax from the start.
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  456. jonasw Holger, sure, this isn’t the place for that though :)
  457. Ge0rG Sorry I'm late, had an unexpected appointment
  458. winfried Ge0rG: welcome
  459. Ge0rG Good progress you've made today
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  461. Ge0rG There are some other prosody todos like actually deleting MAM after N days even if the user didn't log in
  462. winfried jonasw Holger, the list should be writen as baseline, but if a server operator wishes to do other processings, it should be added to the list (and have its own legal stuff)
  463. Ge0rG And probably also deleting the files from their http upload, both after N days and on account deletion
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  466. Ge0rG mod_gdpr_timer anyone?
  467. winfried Lets not focus on one implementation and its bug list ;-)
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  469. pep. People doing http-upload usually keep track of who uploads what?
  470. pep. Is this a thing?
  471. jonasw pep., no, it’s not :)
  472. jonasw and that’s probably the problem :)
  473. pep. hehe
  474. winfried yeah, that one is needed for deleting it....
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  476. pep. Another TODO
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  478. jonasw is there a specified maximum time an operator can take for deleting data after receiving the request?
  479. winfried yes
  480. pep. jonasw, for the "what data do you have on me request" I think it's a month,
  481. pep. I'm not sure about deletion
  482. winfried is reading the bible again
  483. jonasw if it’s like 7 days, operators could just go with the natural http upload expiry they might have
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  485. Ge0rG pep.: you can extend the time by sending back a whiny response how hard is it to gather all the data ;)
  486. pep. jonasw, you mean "natural expiry" of "none"?
  487. pep. :)
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  489. Ge0rG jonasw: what happens with the things the user uploads things while their request is pending?
  490. pep. Ge0rG, but then you'd have to explain that to the ICO? :P
  491. Ge0rG jonasw: what happens with the things the user uploads while their request is pending?
  492. winfried my bible says: "deletion without unreasonable delay", at least within a month :-D
  493. jonasw is "uh, we don’t track who owns which file so we have to rely on normal expiry" a reasonable delay? :)
  494. pep. :P
  495. winfried jonasw: LOL! I guess not
  496. pep. In doubt, ask for consent!
  497. Ge0rG jonasw: just replace all http uploaded files with a goatse overlayed with "no consent"
  498. jonasw *all*?
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  500. jonasw even those of other users?
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  502. Ge0rG yeah, you can't know for sure
  503. winfried todo: write a XEP that asks all other users on consent when one user requests deletion of HTTP-upload content :-D
  504. Ge0rG winfried: sounds like the blockchain approach
  505. pep. What was that potential XEP again? http-uplod slot that wouldn't expire
  506. pep. For avatars and whatnots
  507. winfried But HTTP-upload deletion needs to be covered too, unfortunately
  508. winfried jonasw: to return to the question if expiry will be enough here: only if it expires *fast*
  509. jonasw what’s "fast"?
  510. jonasw 1h? 1d? 7d? 30d?
  511. winfried jonasw: I would say 7d
  512. jonasw ok
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  515. winfried But from a legal point of view, real deletion would be better (and more flexible)
  516. pep. yes
  517. winfried So do we want to add deletion to HTTP-file upload?
  518. pep. Also prevent trolls from uploading stuff when they've requested deletion
  519. jonasw winfried, I’m not sure if it should be added to the protocol.
  520. pep. winfried, where does it say "deletion without unreasonable delay" exactly?
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  522. pep. Do we want an EULA XEP + informational GDPR XEP?
  523. winfried art 17.1
  524. pep. Or do we want to change others
  525. jonasw and if so, it needs to be thought out because the HTTP server and the XMPP server may not be the same entity. but it should be mentioned in the HTTP Upload XEP that implementations must allow the operator to delete all files of an individual user as well as individual files.
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  527. jonasw pep., it’s safer to include such information in the relevant XEPs than having a another XEP which people must play attention to.
  528. pep. jonasw, hah, good point
  529. pep. (for both)
  530. jonasw maybe add a "Privacy Considerations" section.
  531. pep. Right
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  533. pep. Maybe that could be added into the template now
  534. winfried pep.: +1
  535. jonasw I think historically we had this in the Security Considerations
  536. jonasw but this is a separate thing IMO
  537. winfried jonasw: +1
  538. pep. Even if both are entangled, they're not exactly the same :x
  539. jonasw should that section be REQUIRED or RECOMMENDED?
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  541. jonasw I think having it REQUIRED is sane.
  542. winfried jonasw: yes, and maybe add some items to the template that help structuring and analyzing it
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  544. jonasw winfried, would be glad to do that if I get input on that
  545. pep. I would say RECOMMENDED, but I could see both
  546. winfried jonasw: I can help there
  547. pep. jonasw, oh, that's for the template, so XEP authors?
  548. jonasw pep., I think REQUIRED makes sense. Even if the section is just "no user data is collected, thus there are no considerations".
  549. pep. Then REQUIRED
  550. jonasw pep., yes.
  551. winfried jonasw: can we return to the HTTP upload for a moment? We should not change that XEP?
  552. jonasw winfried, I’m pretty sure we should change it
  553. pep. change what
  554. pep. exactly
  555. jonasw at least it should get a note that operators MUST have a way to delete all files of a user.
  556. pep. Can we not just update it
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  558. jonasw winfried, extending it with a flow which allows a user to IQ-request a URL where they can issue an HTTP DELETE to delete a file is another step I can see happening.
  559. jonasw pep., I’m not sure I understand
  560. pep. ok I'm just confused, nvm
  561. pep. jonasw, yes we'd need both I think
  562. winfried jonasw: should we open this discussion in the standards list?
  563. jubalh has joined
  564. pep. winfried, yes
  565. jonasw winfried, seems ok
  566. jonasw I’ll write the mail right now.
  567. pep. We'll need to open a few threads anyway :P
  568. winfried jonasw: thanks!
  569. pep. See TODOs
  570. pep. jonasw, PR then thread maybe?
  571. pep. Unless it's not exactly clear yet
  572. jonasw damn, I’m getting pulled away
  573. jonasw will do
  574. pep. cool
  575. winfried cool +1 ;-)
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  577. pep. I brought right to erasure to the table, but is it ok? What else is there to do on 1.1e
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  579. winfried pep.: it is totally ok
  580. pep. We haven't done server logs? remote components?
  581. winfried correct
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  583. winfried but server logs is clear cut: recommendation for server operators
  584. winfried remote components is covered by 6.1b and no need for extra measures (in line with the earlier decisions)
  585. pep. winfried, "recommendation for server operators", what do you mea
  586. pep. mean
  587. winfried pep.: we should mention to server operators what they should and should not do with the logs to stay within the GDPR
  588. pep. Ok, subject for next time then?
  589. pep. We should probably start opening threads for the TODOs and Technical TODOs
  590. pep. so we can see results quick
  591. winfried yes
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  593. winfried But I believe we have covered 1 by now!
  594. pep. I want a bit more details for server logs, for the minutes/wiki, but yeah
  595. pep. Lots of things to act on now
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  597. pep. See we can see for the XSF.
  598. pep. I guess it'll benefit from all we do for the other operators anyway. And then the wiki, maybe we just need to state during registration that it's all public?
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  600. pep. as PII, only keep email addresses are stored?
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  603. winfried pep.: Ge0rG mentioned this one http://www.privacy-regulation.eu/en/r49.htm
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  605. pep. winfried, yeah but I thought maybe we can dillute that a bit in guidelines
  606. winfried pep.: yes, agreed
  607. pep. Date of next maybe?
  608. winfried Looking at the time: ...
  609. winfried we need to check if 1 covers 2 fully
  610. winfried and then start all over again for 3 :-D
  611. pep. no as it's not only XMPP, for 2
  612. pep. wiki, mailing lists
  613. pep. Ah wait
  614. pep. That's 3
  615. winfried ;-)
  616. winfried And we need to polish the list of tasks and put names under it...
  617. pep. Right
  618. winfried and report to the board
  619. winfried (and council)
  620. jonasw re
  621. jonasw sorry, I had to let an ISP technician in
  622. pep. Date of next? +1 no good for me
  623. pep. Next week I should be able to do any
  624. jonasw next week has my usual constraints
  625. alexis has left
  626. winfried apr 30 12:30 CEST?
  627. alexis has joined
  628. pep. worksforme
  629. jonasw should be able to
  630. winfried Ge0rG ^^^
  631. jubalh has joined
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  633. winfried pep.: I was still in the process op updating the table and processing your previous minutes.. will continue with that
  634. rtq3 has joined
  635. winfried Guess Ge0rG is afk again...
  636. winfried If write it down, pending objections from Ge0rG
  637. Dave Cridland has left
  638. jonasw yeah
  639. dwd has joined
  640. jonasw thanks all :)
  641. Alex has left
  642. jonasw we’re doing good progress here
  643. winfried jonasw: yeah, thank you too!
  644. Dave Cridland has left
  645. winfried the pieces are falling together nicely
  646. dwd has left
  647. dwd has joined
  648. pep. I'm running away, will confirm date of next if Ge0rG can't do, it should work for me anyway
  649. winfried yes, plz!
  650. winfried forgot to bang the gafel. *BANG*
  651. lovetox has left
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  653. jonasw winfried, will you provide me with a list of guiding questions I can put into the Privacy Considerations template sections
  654. jonasw winfried, will you provide me with a list of guiding questions I can put into the Privacy Considerations template section?
  655. Valerian has left
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  657. winfried jonasw: the bottom line is we want to know if anything is done that is not covered by 6.1b or 6.1a
  658. winfried lets try to make that one not too bureaucratic
  659. j.r has joined
  660. winfried Does the extension describe any processing that is not obvious to the user?
  661. winfried If so, does the extension mandate consent for it?
  662. winfried And if so, can the consent be retracted?
  663. dwd has left
  664. Ge0rG Sorry folks. I *think* I can make 30th 12:30
  665. Guus has left
  666. winfried and also: are there any additional risks, like profiling, analyzing sensitive data or automated decisions? If so, what measures are taken against that?
  667. winfried Ge0rG: then you will be with us at least in thought ;-)
  668. winfried Ge0rG: plz drop a not when you know more
  669. moparisthebest has left
  670. winfried s/not/note/
  671. winfried jonasw: enough to get started like this?
  672. Ge0rG winfried: I'll have to decide on short notice. The next week will be rather rough, I'm finally moving to the new house
  673. Dave Cridland has left
  674. winfried Ge0rG: congrats!
  675. winfried let us know, plz give us feedback in other ways otherwise!
  676. Ge0rG winfried: don't make it depend on me; ping me when you start and I'll try to be here
  677. dwd has joined
  678. Zash Do HTTP uploads count as message content?
  679. winfried Zash: yes, user provided content to be precise
  680. Valerian has left
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  682. Zash I saw mention of "legitimate interest" for the message receiver, I wondered if that covers uploaded content as well
  683. Ge0rG Zash: I think so, yes
  684. winfried Zash: we decided to abandon that line of thought, sending a message / file is just a transfer
  685. Zash The (currently at least) technical difference is that files are still hosted at the sender
  686. winfried Zash: yes, good point. But from a legal perspective there is no need to give the receiver based on 'legitimate interest' any rights to that. That would just open a legal minefield
  687. Guus has left
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  690. Zash It touches on a recent discussion about possibly re-hosting files at the receivers server, or providing a HTTP proxy, to provide some privacy protection to the receiver
  691. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  692. winfried Zash: the issue is the 'right to be forgotten': transferring data to a proxy or re-hosting it at the receivers server doesn't change that right, neither does the legitimate interest argument
  693. MattJ So if it wasn't hosted at the receiver's server, but the receiver downloaded it and kept it on their PC...?
  694. Zash I'm not sure what 'right to be forgotten' means exactly. I assume you can't ask service provider A to forget something and have provider B also forget about it.
  695. winfried MattJ: then it is transferred to the intended user, demanding deletion depends on the use of it by the receiver, personal use is not regulated, other use is subject to right to be forgotten
  696. winfried Zash: no, you have to ask both
  697. Zash winfried: Sounds like fun if you'd dropped something into a large groupchat :D
  698. winfried That is my job, and I love my work :-P
  699. Yagiza has joined
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  702. Zash .. to get more coffee
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  721. Ge0rG https://twitter.com/leinweber/status/989267343002951680
  722. Ge0rG We need that too!
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  744. nyco test
  745. nyco Test
  746. dwd has left
  747. Guus (it works)
  748. nyco is ready for the board meeting! 😉
  749. j.r has joined
  750. Guus congrats on the new job, Nyco!
  751. vanitasvitae has left
  752. Guus congrats on the new lap around the sun, Dave
  753. Guus I'm all out of congrats now.
  754. Kev I feel I deserve a congrats just for getting out of bed in the morning, frankly.
  755. jere has left
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  757. Guus Kev, you did not get my card?
  758. ralphm set the topic to XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  759. Kev Lost in the post, I fear.
  760. ralphm bangs gavel
  761. ralphm 0. Welcome and Agenda
  762. dwd has left
  763. Guus Bastards. It was not easy to find an appropriate one. Hallmark apparently does not have a card for every occasion after all...
  764. ralphm Hi! Who do we have, and do you have something for the agenda?
  765. Guus I'm here, nothing new for the agenda.
  766. ralphm Also congrats to all around.
  767. nyco well, we can revive cafepress? take a decision?
  768. MattJ Hey
  769. nyco has left
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  772. ralphm nyco: that's already on the agenda
  773. ralphm Anyway, Martin sent apologies.
  774. ralphm 1. Minute taker
  775. ralphm Who?
  776. Guus has left
  777. MattJ I'll do them
  778. Guus (I'm again pressed for time, sorry)
  779. Guus tx
  780. ralphm 2. Topics for Decisions
  781. ralphm I'll pull the Swag one here.
  782. ralphm nyco
  783. nyco so what's our decision I'd go for a try, let's say a few months, see how much time we spend, how much money we get, how good/bad press we have
  784. dwd has joined
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  786. MattJ I'm good with that
  787. Guus what does that look like?
  788. ralphm Who'd "manage" the "shop", including providing designs?
  789. ralphm I have never done something like this
  790. nyco I can lead, or someone does in which case I can help
  791. nyco the designs would only be the logo for the beginning
  792. ralphm And what is the Royalties thing?
  793. nyco I sent an email around that, could you read it?
  794. Guus I think we have an option to either pay upfront, or have a percentage deduced from our earnings (but not have upfront costs).
  795. dwd has left
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  797. Guus I'd prefer the latter for now, while we're experimenting. If only because it reduces the complexity of setting things up, I imagine.
  798. ralphm nyco: I did, and I didn't understand
  799. Dave Cridland I have various chunks of artwork around in EPS/SVG if anyone needs them.
  800. nyco sure
  801. ralphm (cause if I didn't read it, how would I know about Royalties?)
  802. nyco right ;-)
  803. ralphm Dave Cridland: same here
  804. MattJ ]
  805. nyco I think until a certain threshold, it is a % fee
  806. Dave Cridland has left
  807. ralphm Dave Cridland: like the little design I did for a potential Summit shirt. I also have the correct fonts
  808. nyco the markup is big, as always (like AppStores at 30%)
  809. MattJ nyco, oh, I thought from the email it was 10%?
  810. Guus Note that it is 10% of the _royalties_, which is _not_ equal to the sales volume.
  811. ralphm So like a t-shirt (tri-blend) seems to sell for $29.99. How much would we gain from this?
  812. Guus I don't know what amount of royalties we get for a sale.
  813. ralphm Guus: right, that's why I want to know what Royalties means
  814. Dave Cridland has left
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  816. nyco all right, so I thought I understood, which does not seem true anymore
  817. Guus From what I understood from that site (I browsed a little)
  818. Guus they have a base price for items
  819. nyco I understand we need to know+understand more about royalties before taking a decision, is that correct?
  820. Guus you can add your own markup
  821. sezuan has left
  822. Guus that's what you receive as 'royalties', and from which their fee is deduced.
  823. ralphm It seems that this is more informative: https://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/help/shop_services.aspx
  824. Guus https://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/sell/index.aspx?area=intro_money&page=intro_money
  825. ralphm So, for this meeting, I think we need to agree at least if we'd like to do something like this, and then evaluate which actual shop we'd like to use.
  826. Dave Cridland has left
  827. Dave Cridland https://www.cafepress.com/p/help-creating-selling-earning-money and https://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/help/pricing_policy.aspx seem to explain it.
  828. Guus Ralph, to be honest, as long as we're not spending money, I don't mind to much.
  829. ralphm E.g. I'm wary of this part: “n order to keep designs fresh and of high quality as we launch new products, styles, and printing technologies, solely for designs that you are selling through the CafePress Marketplace: (i) CafePress may automatically add your designs to additional products in the CafePress Marketplace; and (ii) in order to improve the printing quality, CafePress may automatically modify your designs (e.g., cleaning up JPG artifacting, adjusting colors for different printers and products, and adjusting design placement on products).”
  830. nyco that's correct, not only cafepress offers those kind of services
  831. vanitasvitae has joined
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  834. Guus Ralphm: I see no problem with that text you just quoted.
  835. nyco "CafePress may automatically add your designs to additional products in the CafePress Marketplace", what does this mean?
  836. Guus "if we sell new types of swag, we might automatically add these with your branding on it."
  837. Kev When they add a new product (now they sell garden fences), they can add your logo to garden fences and sell XSF garden fences.
  838. Dave Cridland nyco, You make a t-shirt, they do a mug.
  839. MattJ I'm guessing (but don't know) that it means you opt to sell a t-shirt, but they also offer a mug
  840. nyco I'll have to jump on another meeting at 16:00
  841. Dave Cridland has left
  842. ralphm So let's separate this: do we want to sell swag in a shop "like cafepress"?
  843. nyco yes
  844. ralphm I'm +1.
  845. Guus +1
  846. MattJ +1
  847. Kev Sounds at worst harmless to me, from the peanut gallery, too.
  848. ralphm Ok, decided we'd like to do this.
  849. nyco so I'll find alternatives to caferpress
  850. ralphm Then the second part is which shop. I read something about Cafepress "mailing checks". We don't have checks anymore in .nl, so I don't know how this works, but given that we are incorporated, I suppose that could still work?
  851. andy has left
  852. Guus I think we should OK whatever choice we make with our Treasurer.
  853. Dave Cridland has left
  854. Guus to verify that we can facilitate the way money exchanges, I mean.
  855. daniel has left
  856. ralphm Ok, nyco to find out. Let me know when I can help with designs
  857. nyco now...
  858. jjrh has left
  859. ralphm :-D
  860. ralphm 3.
  861. nyco send me what you got?
  862. ralphm 3. AOB
  863. Guus (no AOBs from me)
  864. ralphm We've got 4 minutes. Anything we need to do now?
  865. MattJ Survey
  866. nyco the next newsletter is getting readier everyday
  867. MattJ A couple of brief questions:
  868. ralphm nyco: yay
  869. MattJ we need to agree on the scope - should it be members-only, or open?
  870. Dave Cridland has left
  871. nyco currently, as it is today, the members
  872. Guus I have no strong preference there.
  873. ralphm Oh, I can report we gained github.com/xmpp. I've given control to intosi and Kev, and we can figure out what to do with this
  874. ralphm MattJ: let's go with members for now
  875. MattJ Ok
  876. nyco if we want to go broader, then we should grow our ambitions, make it wider, obey all the surveying rules, promote it in a proper way, have time to interpret and analyse the results, report to the board and members
  877. nyco I'd like we do such a survey soon
  878. MattJ Feel free to draft and prepare such :)
  879. Guus Did you have more questions, MattJ?
  880. nyco exactly
  881. MattJ Guus, I think that's it for now
  882. MattJ Should I just send it this week?
  883. MattJ to members@
  884. ralphm Yes
  885. Guus go for it.
  886. MattJ Ok!
  887. nyco yes, please, and thanks for this
  888. ralphm Thanks!
  889. ralphm 4. Date of Next
  890. MattJ Then that's all
  891. ralphm +1W
  892. MattJ wfm
  893. Guus wfm
  894. nyco yep
  895. nyco thx all!
  896. ralphm 5. Close
  897. MattJ Thanks
  898. ralphm Thanks!
  899. daniel has left
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  901. ralphm And more congrats were due.
  902. ralphm bangs gavel
  903. Guus congrats!
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  938. Ge0rG Now I want to have an "XSF" shaped garden fence
  939. daniel has left
  940. Guus I trust that you will appropriately motivate CafePress.com to add that to their collection.
  941. jjrh has left
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  943. Ge0rG Ah, the times when laser-cut XMPP stickers were the cool stuff.
  944. Guus ... showing your age ...
  945. Ge0rG Who needs laser-cut stickers if you can 3D printed garden fences.
  946. marmistrz has left
  947. Ge0rG I think we should do A/B testing of our brand by offering "Jabber" everything that we also offer "XMPP" of
  948. Dave Cridland has left
  949. Guus I don't know if we can use the Jabber trademark for swag.
  950. Ge0rG I wonder if the XSF needs a permission from the XSF to use the trademar. Peter will love the idea.
  951. jjrh has left
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  954. Ge0rG > Otherwise, the fee is $250.00 for use of the mark in connection with Jabber accessories or any use other than software or computer hardware
  955. daniel has left
  956. daniel has left
  957. Ge0rG I can't even find a mention of the 250$ fee in the license agreement.
  958. Ge0rG But I should stop now. I think everybody still remembers my contempt for the license situation from the last time I tried to fix it.
  959. jonasw where’s the license agreement?
  960. jonasw I thought we only had that declaration of intent
  961. Dave Cridland has left
  962. Ge0rG jonasw: https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/jabber-trademark/trademark-license-agreement.html
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  978. Ge0rG > The <tt>url</tt> attribute of the <tt>delete-slot</tt> element must refer to the GET URL for the file. The server replies with a URL which can be used by the client to delete the file Wait. What?
  979. Ge0rG jonasw: is there a reason why the server shouldn't just immediately delete?
  980. Dave Cridland has left
  981. jonasw Ge0rG, the XMPP server and the HTTP server might be on different machines.
  982. jonasw I can also imagine that we leave it up to the server whether the client has to DELETE or whether it deletes right away (indicated by lack of the <delete/> child). but I’m not sure there are use-cases for that.
  983. daniel has left
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  986. jonasw (it might be that it’s required to do that in some circumstances though, where DELETE can’t be authorized properly with a token; not sure if such scenarios exist)
  987. Ge0rG I can see how off-loading PUT makes sense, but what's wrong with having the XMPP server do whatever HTTP request?
  988. Dave Cridland has left
  989. jonasw I can see why XMPP servers might not want to have an HTTP client.
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  995. Zash jonasw: Can you have anything without a HTTP client these days? :/
  996. jonasw Zash, :(
  997. Ge0rG Does sed have an HTTP client?
  998. Ge0rG Or bash?
  999. Ge0rG jonasw: did you submit the bot to HN already?
  1000. jonasw bash, it would be trivial to do one (sockets)
  1001. jonasw sed, not
  1002. Ge0rG I've written a web *server* in bash, some twenty years ago.
  1003. jonasw Ge0rG, too lazy to get an account etc.
  1004. Ge0rG okay, maybe not quite 20. But it was at a time when dialup was the thing in Germany
  1005. Ge0rG jonasw: I'd create one for you, but I'm sure it'll be tainted as a sock puppet
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  1049. ralphm Somebody wrote an HTTP server in PostScript
  1050. Ge0rG It's what's running on HP LaserJets, right?
  1051. ralphm Not sure
  1052. jonasw haha
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  1055. ralphm jonasw: http://www.pugo.org/project/pshttpd/
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  1057. SamWhited That's horrifying…
  1058. jonasw you are aware of the atrocity I did? https://github.com/horazont/xmpp-echo-bot/
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  1060. jonasw (it’s not as harmless as it looks like from the URL…)
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  1096. Lance jonasw: I am simultaneously appalled and in awe. wow
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  1123. moparisthebest same Lance , nice work jonasw :)
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  1204. jonasw thanks :D
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  1206. jonasw that was the kind of reaction I was going for, Lance
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  1249. Ge0rG Lance: that'd be a great testimony for the README, if you are okay with it
  1250. Lance of course :)
  1251. Ge0rG I'd do a PR, but I don't know the Canonical Order of Testimonials
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  1253. jonasw good point
  1254. jonasw Lance, where, if any, should I link to at your name?
  1255. Ge0rG That, too.
  1256. Ge0rG jonasw didn't ask me that question...
  1257. alexis has joined
  1258. Lance github.com/legastero works
  1259. Nekit has joined
  1260. Ge0rG https://lance.im/ looks like a prosody 404
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  1262. Zash Neat
  1263. rtq3 has left
  1264. Lance as it should
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  1266. jonasw Ge0rG, sure, but I knew where I could link, I don’t know for Lance
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  1270. jonasw published
  1271. Maranda It's behind joo.
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  1311. moparisthebest did anyone post this before? ew https://matrix.org/blog/2018/04/26/matrix-and-riot-confirmed-as-the-basis-for-frances-secure-instant-messenger-app/
  1312. moparisthebest it's amazing what millions of dollars of investor money can buy
  1313. jjrh Geez
  1314. UsL sad..
  1315. jjrh I mean I guess good for them.
  1316. jjrh Is the matrix standard even finalized yet?
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  1332. jjrh nah guess not - it's r0.3.0 and it's a 'living standard'
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  1335. Wiktor interesting comments w.r.t. Matrix as a standard: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16933736
  1336. Zash Define interesting
  1337. Wiktor Zash: adj. Arousing or holding the attention; absorbing
  1338. UsL : D
  1339. Wiktor this comment seems to claim the protocol is highly unstable: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16935012
  1340. moparisthebest who cares if the protocol is unstable if 1 company is producing all the servers and clients?
  1341. Zash Their spec pages do too
  1342. Wiktor moparisthebest: I guess not the French government ;)
  1343. moparisthebest also, no way anyone in france's govt even knows what a 'protocol' is
  1344. moparisthebest all they know is they want a fancy chat app
  1345. Wiktor *encrypted* fancy chat app
  1346. Wiktor encrypted sells nowadays ;)
  1347. Maranda They know enough to be willing to put spyware in your router firmware to satisfy music recording firms against piracy.
  1348. Maranda 🤨
  1349. moparisthebest that sounds horrifying
  1350. moparisthebest but I'm guessing they still don't know, only that music industry said it will 'save the music industry'
  1351. Zash moparisthebest: Yeah, they'll be in exactly the situation they claim to have avoided once another implementation becomes popular enoguh.
  1352. moparisthebest Zash, well worse if there are no standardized protocols or consensus, but yes
  1353. daniel has left
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  1357. Zash > Alternatives like Prosody's XMPP server implementation dropped websocket support in favor of BOSH years ago I don't even.
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  1359. Maranda :O
  1360. Maranda :O
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  1362. moparisthebest where is that from?
  1363. Maranda wonders what to do next now that Lua Garbage Collector is happy.
  1364. Zash Second-to-top comment on that HN thread
  1365. Zash https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16933736
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  1367. Maranda I should find myself something costructive to do.
  1368. Maranda Maybe going to bed falls in that department.
  1369. Maranda :P
  1370. Zash Agh, all links go to the top post! This one https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16935094
  1371. fippo zash: lets blame lance for that!
  1372. jjrh I mean in theory going with at open protocol with a open client/server is better than paying IBM or whoever a bunch of money for a solution that sucks and can't be improved internally.
  1373. jjrh On the other hand if they went with XMPP they would have multiple vendors who would compete on RFP's
  1374. Zash Huh?
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  1376. Zash Isn't the point of RFPs to draft them tailored to a specific vendor?
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  1382. jjrh er probably used that wrong - I mean when the government wants a new feature or whatever multiple companies are going to be sending in bids.
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