XSF Discussion - 2018-04-30

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  256. pep. crap, gdpr meeting today
  257. pep. doing minutes
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  268. pep. dropping this here for later, did we forget about pubsub re right to erasure. Deletion is already in the protocol (right?), but we did mention PEP
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  274. pep. jonasw, no progress on the xep template? (for the minutes)
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  291. jonasw gdpr in 7, winfried, pep., Ge0rg
  292. Ge0rG 👍
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  294. jonasw pep.: I have something uncommitted locally, still need to figure out who has to approve such a change
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  298. pep. Ok
  299. Guus has left
  300. pep. !
  301. Ge0rG ¡
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  303. winfried !
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  306. pep. Right, this time I'm starting minutes right now.
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  308. winfried bangs a gavel ;-)
  309. jonasw .
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  311. winfried I didn't had time to process minutes of meeting 9 yet, but I did do 8
  312. pep. That's my fault
  313. jonasw has left
  314. winfried Not here to blame
  315. jonasw where are we at?
  316. pep. Right to erasure, a few technical TODOs
  317. pep. And then maybe Q2
  318. pep. As I asked above, did we forgot to mention pubsub?
  319. pep. Re right to erasure
  320. Ge0rG pep.: what kind of pubsub?
  321. pep. not PEP
  322. pep. Any
  323. winfried Pubsub is not in our list of processing personal data
  324. winfried it does (potentially) generate interesting metadata
  325. Ge0rG winfried: it's also "user data", probably
  326. edhelas dependes if they are public pubsub nodes or private ones no ?
  327. pep. -xep 223
  328. pep. bunneh!
  329. jonasw pep., in any case, pubsub *does* allow deletion
  330. jonasw via protocol
  331. pep. jonasw, yes, but just as we mentioned PEP I thought we could mention it as well
  332. jonasw either by retracting individual items or by deleting or truncating the whole node
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  334. Ge0rG edhelas: yes, private ones are interesting in GDPR context
  335. Ge0rG because public data is public
  336. edhelas what about exporting ?
  337. Ge0rG exporting what to where?
  338. jonasw Ge0rG, probably the right to get a zipfile with all your data?
  339. winfried plz one question at the time, edhelas ;-)
  340. pep. yeah, we should also answer this question, at some point
  341. pep. For any kind of data
  342. pep. (edhelas do you have a hl on pubsub btw?)
  343. winfried jonasw: is there any place except the logfiles where the stored data can't be obtained in a machine readable format?
  344. jonasw winfried, probably not
  345. pep. Technically everything is done via XMPP right?
  346. edhelas pep. no I don't, just having the room open
  347. jonasw winfried, except maybe archives where you don’t have access anymore for some reason.
  348. pep. We could "export" stuff via xmpp
  349. jonasw like MUC-MAM
  350. pep. "just" need a client that supports every single XEP :-°
  351. pep. gajim?
  352. Ge0rG jonasw: even when you do have access, you can't delete from MUC-MAM
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  355. jonasw Ge0rG, we’re on export now, not on deletion.
  356. Ge0rG Aren't they sufficiently related to better treat both at once?
  357. winfried I see two issues raised here: 1 pubsub allows a private form, that is not just 6.1b (implied consent, as used almost everywhere) but also explicit consent, 6.1a as in MAM
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  359. winfried 2 deletion is not everywhere part of the protocol and needs to be added
  360. pep. winfried, for 2., we have TODOs
  361. winfried ( jonasw that is a question for the template too)
  362. pep. Maybe not *everything* yet
  363. winfried pep.: correct, 2 is already in the todo
  364. pep. Though I think we've covered that pretty much last time
  365. winfried I guess PubSub can be handled as a combination of MAM and everything else
  366. winfried BTW: see table https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR/Table I don't talk about issues to solve anymore but resolutions
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  371. pep. What do we do about export then. There's no need for anything particular in the protocol as it's already there.
  372. jonasw winfried, do we need to add deletion to the protocol for sure? AFAIK it would be sufficient to have a way for operators to conveniently delete data.
  373. pep. We might want to provide a tool (client) that does that, dump everything?
  374. jonasw pep., that’d be a technical todo. makes a lot of sense.
  375. pep. jonasw, as a first step maybe. On "big" deployments, handling that might be demanding?
  376. jonasw problem is, how to find all your data scattered across the different services?
  377. pep. (re deletion)
  378. jonasw think MUCs on different domains
  379. pep. do we have to handle that?
  380. jonasw dunno
  381. Ge0rG interesting point.
  382. Ge0rG the same for pubsub
  383. pep. Unlike most email setup, we don't keep track of what you've sent
  384. winfried The idea of downloading is not to get a PDF like facebook sends, but to be able to migrate
  385. jonasw my understanding would be that each domain is its own operator and you’d have to ask them for your data...
  386. jonasw winfried, in that case, we’d also need ways to feed things back into the (presumably new) service.
  387. pep. jonasw, that's also what I would I thought. Now I don't know
  388. winfried I guess migration is makes most sense to do live from the network, not from a stored file
  389. jonasw which is currently not possible e.g. with MAM
  390. pep. The user is not especially aware of that
  391. jonasw winfried, agreed
  392. winfried jonasw: feeding back is funny enough not part of the GDPR
  393. Ge0rG the market will solve that *cough*
  394. jonasw pep., agreed, but your own operator can’t do anything about it -- unless they log every domain you ever interacted with. that seems like an undue burden and also an unfortunate accumulation of data.
  395. pep. for migration, can we not revive {xep moved}?
  396. pep. Zash, plz bring back bunneh
  397. jonasw pep., https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0283.html
  398. Ge0rG pep.: xep-0227
  399. jonasw oh neat
  400. pep. oh
  401. pep. interesting
  402. jonasw Ge0rG, wat
  403. pep. so a combination of both?
  404. jonasw Ge0rG, that is for servers
  405. daniel has joined
  406. Ge0rG pep.: moved is for when you change your JID. 227 is for when you move your domain to another hoster
  407. Ge0rG With the huge number of commercial XMPP domain hosters, this is a real problem.
  408. pep. Ge0rG, when you move your domain to another hoster you also change JIDs
  409. jonasw Ge0rG, buuut that is off-topic for user GDPR things
  410. jonasw pep., no
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  413. jonasw when you move your *domain* to another hoster, the domain stays the same.
  414. pep. ah, err
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  417. pep. 227 also allow moving from one domain to another right? It doesn't care
  418. pep. It's just moving data between two XMPP servers
  419. jonasw pep., no, it preserves domains
  420. jonasw it does care, and it is off-topic to the end-user GDPR discussion.
  421. winfried is tired and in overflow mode. what are the demands of the GDPR here? AFAIK only being able to download in a machine readable format
  422. jonasw (unless I’m mistaken)
  423. pep. Ok less interesting than I thought then
  424. Ge0rG jonasw: I'd say that 227 qualifies as an "export format"
  425. jonasw Ge0rG, parts of it *maybe*
  426. Ge0rG jonasw: it's the best we have on that front
  427. jonasw (also, it needs to be updated. it expects plaintext passwords)
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  430. Ge0rG jonasw: you can get parts of your export in-band (MAM, PubSub - if you know the nodes); and you can use 227 for the whole of your account
  431. winfried Why don't we take the most minimalist approach: XMPP is a machine downloadable format (better documented then every thing else you will see), just use XMPP
  432. Ge0rG in theory
  433. Ge0rG winfried: what do you want to export that way?
  434. winfried My server stores my roster, MAM
  435. winfried I can be owner of pubsub nodes, I can always download those
  436. Ge0rG winfried: so you argue that you can get your roster and MAM data as an "export" just by querying them in-band?
  437. winfried Ge0rG: Correct
  438. Ge0rG winfried: that's great.
  439. pep. Ge0rG, that's also what I thought when I mentioned an "export tool" (a client)
  440. Ge0rG I'd say we need to list all the data types and their respective means of export.
  441. winfried I don't see why we should do more here
  442. pep. What's the exact requirement here
  443. pep. Do we have to provide a format that can be used by other servers
  444. winfried Ge0rG: yes, if we need to do anything more here, then it would be such a list
  445. Ge0rG winfried: if we want to export the data in a way that allows uploading it into another hoster, we are left with 227.
  446. pep. That's article 20 right?
  447. jonasw (227 is maybe a good start, but not a silver bullet to this; it isn’t suited to transfer between different JIDs, due to deep references to the original JID)
  448. winfried pep.: looking in my bible for the exact requirement
  449. pep. "in a structured, commonly used and machine-readable format and have the right to transmit those data to another controller"
  450. winfried pep.: yes, art 20
  451. pep. 20.2, "shall have the right to have the personal data transmitted directly from one controller to another, where technically feasible."
  452. winfried Look also at this: https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-68/
  453. pep. yes
  454. winfried 20.1a is also interesting, that would mean only mam and pubsub needs to be transferable
  455. pep. transferable how
  456. pep. They already are, to the client
  457. winfried pep.: yes, 20.2 would be needed too
  458. pep. 20.2 is s2s transfers yes
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  461. jonasw winfried, roster, too
  462. jonasw regarding 20.2, I think as long as we don’t have a XEP for that, it’s not technically feasible
  463. winfried jonasw: do we store roster under 6.1a or 6.1b?
  464. pep. jonasw, we could start from 227
  465. winfried jonasw: btw, transfering your roster would be a great thing to offer
  466. pep. Transferring anything really
  467. pep. Being able to move servers with the click of a button would be great
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  470. winfried So make an up to date version of 227 that allows transfer of one user?
  471. pep. That's more or less what's asked, no? "where technically feasible"
  472. winfried What kind of auth mechanism would that take?
  473. jonasw I’d probably rather build on top of XEP-0238 (Moved)
  474. ThibG has joined
  475. Ge0rG yeah, if we remove the "manual approval needed" from 0238, it'd be great.
  476. pep. jonasw, I think we need both
  477. pep. Ge0rG, yes!
  478. Ge0rG I planned to dump that into standards@ for a year now
  479. pep. go go
  480. jonasw I don’t want to get into technical details here.
  481. pep. So, technical TODO?
  482. jonasw yes
  483. pep. Look into 227/283
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  485. jonasw ok, what’s next?
  486. pep. I think that's about the end of 1.1e?
  487. vanitasvitae has left
  488. winfried do we have to check the technical ToDo on deletion?
  489. pep. check how?
  490. Guus has left
  491. winfried pep.: good question... ;-)
  492. jonasw what do you mean exactly?
  493. winfried From the minutes (9): Data that will need to be deleted on Right to Erasure (17.1) request: - MAM contents - Offline messages (if separate from MAM) - Roster - XML Private Storage - PEP - other custom processing?
  494. winfried Should we add anything to that list
  495. pep. 223?
  496. jonasw winfried, HTTP Upload?
  497. pep. private pubsub
  498. pep. and http-upload yes
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  501. pep. Plus I mentioned that in the TODOs below..
  502. winfried PubSud does delete, so private should too, right?
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  504. pep. jonasw, server-side stored files then. because it's possibly not just http-upload
  505. pep. winfried, yes yes
  506. winfried But maybe we should expand that list to XEPs and RFC's that need deletion...
  507. Steve Kille has joined
  508. pep. I just think that should be mentioned as well
  509. winfried pep.: agree
  510. pep. This list is not just for those where it's not implemented
  511. winfried Maybe we / somebody should make a list where deletion may be applicable and check where it is implemented and where not...
  512. jonasw I gotta run in 5
  513. jonasw date of next?
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  516. winfried +1 +2 or +4
  517. jonasw days, I presume
  518. Dave Cridland has left
  519. jonasw not sure if I can make +1 due to the holiday
  520. jonasw +2 is not an option since it’s wednesday
  521. jonasw +4 could work
  522. pep. can do
  523. pep. ah wait
  524. jonasw Ge0rG, ^
  525. pep. I might be late
  526. pep. On friday
  527. jonasw +30min would be fine for me, too
  528. jonasw (that is, Fri 13:00 CEST
  529. pep. k
  530. jonasw (that is, Fri 13:00 CEST)
  531. pep. That would work
  532. jonasw winfried, Ge0rG?
  533. Ge0rG probably a no from me for Thu
  534. pep. friday
  535. Ge0rG I have a probably-cancelled appointment on Fri.
  536. winfried Friday 13:00 CEST WFM
  537. Ge0rG Will have to phone-check with them
  538. Guus has left
  539. pep. Also heads up, 26? days until dday
  540. Ge0rG okay, can do on Fri
  541. pep. okay
  542. jonasw ack
  543. jonasw gotta run
  544. winfried Friday 13:00 CEST
  545. winfried jonasw: thanks!
  546. winfried bangs the gavel
  547. pep. Ok, minutes incoming
  548. winfried pep.: great!
  549. winfried Have some work to do, again...
  550. pep. https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/1/edit/zSeJf1fqWnhVVk6LEjM0Xg/9CRtkSfVga8dtSuc8oDxjtv4/ anything I missed?
  551. Guus has left
  552. pep. pff that markdown editor
  553. winfried mention recital 68
  554. pep. It doesn't want to split my quotes
  555. pep. ok
  556. goffi has joined
  557. winfried Note: we are overshooting the GDPR requirements here, strictly only MAM and PubSun need to be transferable
  558. Guus has left
  559. pep. goffi, your jingle-ft component, is it only to put in relation two clients atm? Does it store anything on the server? I haven't had a look yet
  560. pep. winfried, isn't it any PII?
  561. pep. "shall have the right to receive the personal data"
  562. winfried pep.: No, only PII that is processed under 6.1a (see art 20.1a)
  563. pep. oh
  564. pep. ah right, as specified in 20.1a
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  566. goffi pep.: the component is for server side things, so it keep stuff and this can be shared with as much people as you want (based on a whitelist). In addition, there is also a P2P sharing which is not using the component.
  567. pep. Ok so there is server-side file storage involved
  568. goffi yes, and I plan to add file deletion before release.
  569. pep. Does your implementation keep track of who uploaded what
  570. pep. cool
  571. goffi yes it does
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  573. pep. Is that specified in the XEP(s) you used?
  574. pep. Do the XEPs even talk about server-side jingle
  575. winfried pep.: I think we should report / be open that we are overshooting on transfer
  576. pep. winfried, agreed, I'll add it
  577. goffi the XEP is for sharing file listing. Deletion is not specified, I'm planing to use ad-hoc commands for that.
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  579. winfried goffi: better should be a protocol for that (not overseeing its feasibility)
  580. goffi pep.: the XEP was done for P2P sharing between device, which is my second use case. I'm just using it in a component to have server file storage.
  581. pep. winfried, might be good to add a TODO for this as well
  582. winfried pep.: +1
  583. pep. goffi, sure. We're just looking at what needs to be done in the context of GDPR
  584. pep. For servers
  585. goffi winfried: I'm experimenting, and will propose protoXEP for each thing not implemented as soon as possible
  586. winfried goffi: great!
  587. pep. goffi, can I add that in the minutes? Saying you're looking into it?
  588. pep. I should also reference your previous thread on standards
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  590. goffi pep.: sure. I'm willing to write a blog post about that for weeks, but lacking time
  591. pep. cool :)
  592. goffi anyway I'll release an alpha version soon
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  597. pep. winfried, sending
  598. winfried pep.: thanks!
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  1105. Maranda Apr 30 22:07:08 s2sin5f23e00 debug Received[s2sin_unauthed]: <starttls xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-tls'><required/></starttls> Apr 30 22:07:08 mod_s2s debug sending: <proceed xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-tls'>
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