XSF Discussion - 2018-04-30

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  256. pep.

    crap, gdpr meeting today

  257. pep. doing minutes

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  268. pep.

    dropping this here for later, did we forget about pubsub re right to erasure. Deletion is already in the protocol (right?), but we did mention PEP

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  274. pep.

    jonasw, no progress on the xep template? (for the minutes)

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  291. jonasw

    gdpr in 7, winfried, pep., Ge0rg

  292. Ge0rG


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  294. jonasw

    pep.: I have something uncommitted locally, still need to figure out who has to approve such a change

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  300. pep.


  301. Ge0rG


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  303. winfried


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  306. pep.

    Right, this time I'm starting minutes right now.

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  308. winfried bangs a gavel ;-)

  309. jonasw


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  311. winfried

    I didn't had time to process minutes of meeting 9 yet, but I did do 8

  312. pep.

    That's my fault

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  314. winfried

    Not here to blame

  315. jonasw

    where are we at?

  316. pep.

    Right to erasure, a few technical TODOs

  317. pep.

    And then maybe Q2

  318. pep.

    As I asked above, did we forgot to mention pubsub?

  319. pep.

    Re right to erasure

  320. Ge0rG

    pep.: what kind of pubsub?

  321. pep.

    not PEP

  322. pep.


  323. winfried

    Pubsub is not in our list of processing personal data

  324. winfried

    it does (potentially) generate interesting metadata

  325. Ge0rG

    winfried: it's also "user data", probably

  326. edhelas

    dependes if they are public pubsub nodes or private ones no ?

  327. pep.

    -xep 223

  328. pep.


  329. jonasw

    pep., in any case, pubsub *does* allow deletion

  330. jonasw

    via protocol

  331. pep.

    jonasw, yes, but just as we mentioned PEP I thought we could mention it as well

  332. jonasw

    either by retracting individual items or by deleting or truncating the whole node

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  334. Ge0rG

    edhelas: yes, private ones are interesting in GDPR context

  335. Ge0rG

    because public data is public

  336. edhelas

    what about exporting ?

  337. Ge0rG

    exporting what to where?

  338. jonasw

    Ge0rG, probably the right to get a zipfile with all your data?

  339. winfried

    plz one question at the time, edhelas ;-)

  340. pep.

    yeah, we should also answer this question, at some point

  341. pep.

    For any kind of data

  342. pep.

    (edhelas do you have a hl on pubsub btw?)

  343. winfried

    jonasw: is there any place except the logfiles where the stored data can't be obtained in a machine readable format?

  344. jonasw

    winfried, probably not

  345. pep.

    Technically everything is done via XMPP right?

  346. edhelas

    pep. no I don't, just having the room open

  347. jonasw

    winfried, except maybe archives where you don’t have access anymore for some reason.

  348. pep.

    We could "export" stuff via xmpp

  349. jonasw

    like MUC-MAM

  350. pep.

    "just" need a client that supports every single XEP :-°

  351. pep.


  352. Ge0rG

    jonasw: even when you do have access, you can't delete from MUC-MAM

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  355. jonasw

    Ge0rG, we’re on export now, not on deletion.

  356. Ge0rG

    Aren't they sufficiently related to better treat both at once?

  357. winfried

    I see two issues raised here: 1 pubsub allows a private form, that is not just 6.1b (implied consent, as used almost everywhere) but also explicit consent, 6.1a as in MAM

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  359. winfried

    2 deletion is not everywhere part of the protocol and needs to be added

  360. pep.

    winfried, for 2., we have TODOs

  361. winfried

    ( jonasw that is a question for the template too)

  362. pep.

    Maybe not *everything* yet

  363. winfried

    pep.: correct, 2 is already in the todo

  364. pep.

    Though I think we've covered that pretty much last time

  365. winfried

    I guess PubSub can be handled as a combination of MAM and everything else

  366. winfried

    BTW: see table https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR/Table I don't talk about issues to solve anymore but resolutions

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  371. pep.

    What do we do about export then. There's no need for anything particular in the protocol as it's already there.

  372. jonasw

    winfried, do we need to add deletion to the protocol for sure? AFAIK it would be sufficient to have a way for operators to conveniently delete data.

  373. pep.

    We might want to provide a tool (client) that does that, dump everything?

  374. jonasw

    pep., that’d be a technical todo. makes a lot of sense.

  375. pep.

    jonasw, as a first step maybe. On "big" deployments, handling that might be demanding?

  376. jonasw

    problem is, how to find all your data scattered across the different services?

  377. pep.

    (re deletion)

  378. jonasw

    think MUCs on different domains

  379. pep.

    do we have to handle that?

  380. jonasw


  381. Ge0rG

    interesting point.

  382. Ge0rG

    the same for pubsub

  383. pep.

    Unlike most email setup, we don't keep track of what you've sent

  384. winfried

    The idea of downloading is not to get a PDF like facebook sends, but to be able to migrate

  385. jonasw

    my understanding would be that each domain is its own operator and you’d have to ask them for your data...

  386. jonasw

    winfried, in that case, we’d also need ways to feed things back into the (presumably new) service.

  387. pep.

    jonasw, that's also what I would I thought. Now I don't know

  388. winfried

    I guess migration is makes most sense to do live from the network, not from a stored file

  389. jonasw

    which is currently not possible e.g. with MAM

  390. pep.

    The user is not especially aware of that

  391. jonasw

    winfried, agreed

  392. winfried

    jonasw: feeding back is funny enough not part of the GDPR

  393. Ge0rG

    the market will solve that *cough*

  394. jonasw

    pep., agreed, but your own operator can’t do anything about it -- unless they log every domain you ever interacted with. that seems like an undue burden and also an unfortunate accumulation of data.

  395. pep.

    for migration, can we not revive {xep moved}?

  396. pep.

    Zash, plz bring back bunneh

  397. jonasw

    pep., https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0283.html

  398. Ge0rG

    pep.: xep-0227

  399. jonasw

    oh neat

  400. pep.


  401. pep.


  402. jonasw

    Ge0rG, wat

  403. pep.

    so a combination of both?

  404. jonasw

    Ge0rG, that is for servers

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  406. Ge0rG

    pep.: moved is for when you change your JID. 227 is for when you move your domain to another hoster

  407. Ge0rG

    With the huge number of commercial XMPP domain hosters, this is a real problem.

  408. pep.

    Ge0rG, when you move your domain to another hoster you also change JIDs

  409. jonasw

    Ge0rG, buuut that is off-topic for user GDPR things

  410. jonasw

    pep., no

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  413. jonasw

    when you move your *domain* to another hoster, the domain stays the same.

  414. pep.

    ah, err

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  417. pep.

    227 also allow moving from one domain to another right? It doesn't care

  418. pep.

    It's just moving data between two XMPP servers

  419. jonasw

    pep., no, it preserves domains

  420. jonasw

    it does care, and it is off-topic to the end-user GDPR discussion.

  421. winfried is tired and in overflow mode. what are the demands of the GDPR here? AFAIK only being able to download in a machine readable format

  422. jonasw

    (unless I’m mistaken)

  423. pep.

    Ok less interesting than I thought then

  424. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I'd say that 227 qualifies as an "export format"

  425. jonasw

    Ge0rG, parts of it *maybe*

  426. Ge0rG

    jonasw: it's the best we have on that front

  427. jonasw

    (also, it needs to be updated. it expects plaintext passwords)

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  430. Ge0rG

    jonasw: you can get parts of your export in-band (MAM, PubSub - if you know the nodes); and you can use 227 for the whole of your account

  431. winfried

    Why don't we take the most minimalist approach: XMPP is a machine downloadable format (better documented then every thing else you will see), just use XMPP

  432. Ge0rG

    in theory

  433. Ge0rG

    winfried: what do you want to export that way?

  434. winfried

    My server stores my roster, MAM

  435. winfried

    I can be owner of pubsub nodes, I can always download those

  436. Ge0rG

    winfried: so you argue that you can get your roster and MAM data as an "export" just by querying them in-band?

  437. winfried

    Ge0rG: Correct

  438. Ge0rG

    winfried: that's great.

  439. pep.

    Ge0rG, that's also what I thought when I mentioned an "export tool" (a client)

  440. Ge0rG

    I'd say we need to list all the data types and their respective means of export.

  441. winfried

    I don't see why we should do more here

  442. pep.

    What's the exact requirement here

  443. pep.

    Do we have to provide a format that can be used by other servers

  444. winfried

    Ge0rG: yes, if we need to do anything more here, then it would be such a list

  445. Ge0rG

    winfried: if we want to export the data in a way that allows uploading it into another hoster, we are left with 227.

  446. pep.

    That's article 20 right?

  447. jonasw

    (227 is maybe a good start, but not a silver bullet to this; it isn’t suited to transfer between different JIDs, due to deep references to the original JID)

  448. winfried

    pep.: looking in my bible for the exact requirement

  449. pep.

    "in a structured, commonly used and machine-readable format and have the right to transmit those data to another controller"

  450. winfried

    pep.: yes, art 20

  451. pep.

    20.2, "shall have the right to have the personal data transmitted directly from one controller to another, where technically feasible."

  452. winfried

    Look also at this: https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-68/

  453. pep.


  454. winfried

    20.1a is also interesting, that would mean only mam and pubsub needs to be transferable

  455. pep.

    transferable how

  456. pep.

    They already are, to the client

  457. winfried

    pep.: yes, 20.2 would be needed too

  458. pep.

    20.2 is s2s transfers yes

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  461. jonasw

    winfried, roster, too

  462. jonasw

    regarding 20.2, I think as long as we don’t have a XEP for that, it’s not technically feasible

  463. winfried

    jonasw: do we store roster under 6.1a or 6.1b?

  464. pep.

    jonasw, we could start from 227

  465. winfried

    jonasw: btw, transfering your roster would be a great thing to offer

  466. pep.

    Transferring anything really

  467. pep.

    Being able to move servers with the click of a button would be great

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  470. winfried

    So make an up to date version of 227 that allows transfer of one user?

  471. pep.

    That's more or less what's asked, no? "where technically feasible"

  472. winfried

    What kind of auth mechanism would that take?

  473. jonasw

    I’d probably rather build on top of XEP-0238 (Moved)

  474. ThibG has joined

  475. Ge0rG

    yeah, if we remove the "manual approval needed" from 0238, it'd be great.

  476. pep.

    jonasw, I think we need both

  477. pep.

    Ge0rG, yes!

  478. Ge0rG

    I planned to dump that into standards@ for a year now

  479. pep.

    go go

  480. jonasw

    I don’t want to get into technical details here.

  481. pep.

    So, technical TODO?

  482. jonasw


  483. pep.

    Look into 227/283

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  485. jonasw

    ok, what’s next?

  486. pep.

    I think that's about the end of 1.1e?

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  488. winfried

    do we have to check the technical ToDo on deletion?

  489. pep.

    check how?

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  491. winfried

    pep.: good question... ;-)

  492. jonasw

    what do you mean exactly?

  493. winfried

    From the minutes (9): Data that will need to be deleted on Right to Erasure (17.1) request: - MAM contents - Offline messages (if separate from MAM) - Roster - XML Private Storage - PEP - other custom processing?

  494. winfried

    Should we add anything to that list

  495. pep.


  496. jonasw

    winfried, HTTP Upload?

  497. pep.

    private pubsub

  498. pep.

    and http-upload yes

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  501. pep.

    Plus I mentioned that in the TODOs below..

  502. winfried

    PubSud does delete, so private should too, right?

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  504. pep.

    jonasw, server-side stored files then. because it's possibly not just http-upload

  505. pep.

    winfried, yes yes

  506. winfried

    But maybe we should expand that list to XEPs and RFC's that need deletion...

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  508. pep.

    I just think that should be mentioned as well

  509. winfried

    pep.: agree

  510. pep.

    This list is not just for those where it's not implemented

  511. winfried

    Maybe we / somebody should make a list where deletion may be applicable and check where it is implemented and where not...

  512. jonasw

    I gotta run in 5

  513. jonasw

    date of next?

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  516. winfried

    +1 +2 or +4

  517. jonasw

    days, I presume

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  519. jonasw

    not sure if I can make +1 due to the holiday

  520. jonasw

    +2 is not an option since it’s wednesday

  521. jonasw

    +4 could work

  522. pep.

    can do

  523. pep.

    ah wait

  524. jonasw

    Ge0rG, ^

  525. pep.

    I might be late

  526. pep.

    On friday

  527. jonasw

    +30min would be fine for me, too

  528. jonasw

    (that is, Fri 13:00 CEST

  529. pep.


  530. jonasw

    (that is, Fri 13:00 CEST)

  531. pep.

    That would work

  532. jonasw

    winfried, Ge0rG?

  533. Ge0rG

    probably a no from me for Thu

  534. pep.


  535. Ge0rG

    I have a probably-cancelled appointment on Fri.

  536. winfried

    Friday 13:00 CEST WFM

  537. Ge0rG

    Will have to phone-check with them

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  539. pep.

    Also heads up, 26? days until dday

  540. Ge0rG

    okay, can do on Fri

  541. pep.


  542. jonasw


  543. jonasw

    gotta run

  544. winfried

    Friday 13:00 CEST

  545. winfried

    jonasw: thanks!

  546. winfried bangs the gavel

  547. pep.

    Ok, minutes incoming

  548. winfried

    pep.: great!

  549. winfried

    Have some work to do, again...

  550. pep.

    https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/1/edit/zSeJf1fqWnhVVk6LEjM0Xg/9CRtkSfVga8dtSuc8oDxjtv4/ anything I missed?

  551. Guus has left

  552. pep.

    pff that markdown editor

  553. winfried

    mention recital 68

  554. pep.

    It doesn't want to split my quotes

  555. pep.


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  557. winfried

    Note: we are overshooting the GDPR requirements here, strictly only MAM and PubSun need to be transferable

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  559. pep.

    goffi, your jingle-ft component, is it only to put in relation two clients atm? Does it store anything on the server? I haven't had a look yet

  560. pep.

    winfried, isn't it any PII?

  561. pep.

    "shall have the right to receive the personal data"

  562. winfried

    pep.: No, only PII that is processed under 6.1a (see art 20.1a)

  563. pep.


  564. pep.

    ah right, as specified in 20.1a

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  566. goffi

    pep.: the component is for server side things, so it keep stuff and this can be shared with as much people as you want (based on a whitelist). In addition, there is also a P2P sharing which is not using the component.

  567. pep.

    Ok so there is server-side file storage involved

  568. goffi

    yes, and I plan to add file deletion before release.

  569. pep.

    Does your implementation keep track of who uploaded what

  570. pep.


  571. goffi

    yes it does

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  573. pep.

    Is that specified in the XEP(s) you used?

  574. pep.

    Do the XEPs even talk about server-side jingle

  575. winfried

    pep.: I think we should report / be open that we are overshooting on transfer

  576. pep.

    winfried, agreed, I'll add it

  577. goffi

    the XEP is for sharing file listing. Deletion is not specified, I'm planing to use ad-hoc commands for that.

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  579. winfried

    goffi: better should be a protocol for that (not overseeing its feasibility)

  580. goffi

    pep.: the XEP was done for P2P sharing between device, which is my second use case. I'm just using it in a component to have server file storage.

  581. pep.

    winfried, might be good to add a TODO for this as well

  582. winfried

    pep.: +1

  583. pep.

    goffi, sure. We're just looking at what needs to be done in the context of GDPR

  584. pep.

    For servers

  585. goffi

    winfried: I'm experimenting, and will propose protoXEP for each thing not implemented as soon as possible

  586. winfried

    goffi: great!

  587. pep.

    goffi, can I add that in the minutes? Saying you're looking into it?

  588. pep.

    I should also reference your previous thread on standards

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  590. goffi

    pep.: sure. I'm willing to write a blog post about that for weeks, but lacking time

  591. pep.

    cool :)

  592. goffi

    anyway I'll release an alpha version soon

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  597. pep.

    winfried, sending

  598. winfried

    pep.: thanks!

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    Apr 30 22:07:08 s2sin5f23e00 debug Received[s2sin_unauthed]: <starttls xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-tls'><required/></starttls> Apr 30 22:07:08 mod_s2s debug sending: <proceed xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-tls'>

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