XSF Discussion - 2018-05-02

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  84. moparisthebest in a xep xml, is there a way to do this:
  85. moparisthebest Reference: [&xep0368;]
  86. moparisthebest for a protoxep ?
  87. moparisthebest like a 'this xep'
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  203. jonasw moparisthebest, just write "this xep"?
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  233. Maranda 😆
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  237. jonasw moparisthebest, I’ve seen your draft -- are you on a mission to make Zash incredibly sad?
  238. flow moar context pls?
  239. jonasw flow, https://github.com/moparisthebest/xeps/commit/364a577a30e1d42d6fb169e596921befc2c16873
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  242. Maranda stopped at "MUST use HTTPS"
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  251. flow quite a dance for an xmpp connectiono
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  262. lovetox So this is like POSH but with added connection infos
  263. lovetox though what is the use case
  264. lovetox ?
  265. lovetox is there a use case where we cant put these infos into srv entrys?
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  267. jonasw lovetox, not sure if one can resolve SRV from within a web client
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  270. pep. https://www.w3.org/TR/raw-sockets/
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  302. Dave Cridland moparisthebest, I'm going to need a crapload of reasons why this proposal isn't duplicating DOH etc.
  303. jonasw DOH?
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  306. daniel Because nobody supports DNS over http🙄
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  308. daniel I see your point though
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  310. jonasw moparisthebest, have you seen https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0156.html#http ?
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  316. Wiktor jonasw: for discovering domain name and port an extension to XEP 0156 would be IMHO sufficient, but as far as I can see moparisthebest wants something that could contain info about SNI/ALPN to be used as well as public key pins, etc.
  317. jonasw uh
  318. jonasw that doesn’t make sense to me
  319. jonasw but I bet there’s a rationale
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  323. Wiktor especially that public key pinning is being withdrawn from browsers...
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  326. ralphm Well, yeah. The problem with HPKP *in the browser*, is that if at a point in time, the wrong header was received by the browser, there is no way to undo this, except for waiting until that header's expiry. Besides the actual owner of the website messing up, the other issue is with somebody hijacking your website in some way, if only temporary, and issuing cripling headers.
  327. ralphm Of course, for mobile apps, this is different. There, you still have the option to issue a new version of your app.
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  330. Ge0rG apps should just do cert pinning
  331. Wiktor ralphm: yes, but the xeo that moparisthebest is authoring would be more similar to hpkp in the browser (as I guess xmpp clients would not ship with this list and would not update the list as servers change their pins)
  332. ralphm Ge0rG: please explain how you handle cert expiry. Unless you meant public key pinning, in which case I will ask: how do you handle revocation in case your secret key is compromised?
  333. Wiktor Ge0rG: cert pinning can be more dangerous than key pinning, in case someone revokes your cert you're out of options, see https://scotthelme.co.uk/the-power-to-revoke-lies-with-the-ca/
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  335. ralphm Wiktor: I think HPKP definitely has merit, so if you can mitigate the above by having some way to recover from faulty headers, yay!
  336. Ge0rG ralphm: indeed I'm using "cert pinning" as a loosely defined term for pinning either the SPKI, the certificate or the CA cert.
  337. Ge0rG ralphm: which of those should be taken, I'd decide on a case-by-case basis
  338. Wiktor ralphm: well, it's just a very sharp blade, if you take extra care then sure, but I wouldn't recommend it lightly
  339. Ge0rG ralphm: I think it's not too far-fetched to have a long-living self-signed cert for an app and to roll out a new app version in case of compromise.
  340. Wiktor Ge0rG: new app version? that'd tightly couple client to server, for centralized service such as Signal this is OK but for XMPP all clients would need to be upgraded... unless I'm missing something in this design :)
  341. ralphm I agree that rolling out a new app is the easier way, but using HPKP in this particular case makes it more seamless to the user. Having to tell your user to upgrade, is a) painful, b) not trivial if you depended on the certificate/key to deliver a notice to the app.
  342. Ge0rG Wiktor: I'm only talking of apps that are bound to a given service. For other (xmpp-style) apps, I've written https://github.com/ge0rg/MemorizingTrustManager
  343. Ge0rG ralphm: right. with sufficient planning, you can have a fallback pin in the app, too ;)
  344. Wiktor got it
  345. jonasw Ge0rG, I’d have a backup cert in a secure store which the app already trusts. if cert A is comprimised, I roll out cert B on the services. App would distrust cert A once it has seen cert B in the wild.
  346. jonasw then I’ve got some time to roll out an update with cert B as primary and a new cert C as backup.
  347. ralphm jonasw: that is more or less exactly HPKP
  348. Ge0rG There is an easy solution: don't lose your private keys :P
  349. ralphm Ge0rG: thanks for your theoretical insight
  350. Ge0rG ralphm: I'm full of those. Ask me for more any time
  351. jonasw Ge0rG, ah, damn, so simple a plan! pity that *I* didn’t think of that. Maybe make that an RFC, it’s genious :)
  352. ralphm :facepalm:
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  492. jonasw I wonder whether we want a way to signal in-band that an account has been deleted.
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  495. jonasw example use-case: user A registers at foreign biboumi instance B, joins a channel and sets it to persistent. account of user A gets deleted. biboumi will forever be in that channel for no use
  496. jonasw idea: send <presence type="unavailable"><deleted/></presence> in response to presence probes.
  497. MattJ type="error" <gone/>
  498. MattJ Already in the RFC
  499. jonasw MattJ, oh
  500. jonasw did I say something?
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  509. Holger But biboumi won't actively contact the JID and hence not receive that stanza error, right?
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  519. Holger Oh "in response to presence probes". biboumi generates presence probes?
  520. Zash Should servers send out that to bookmarked rooms or something?
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  525. Zash Would sorta fit with the move towards account based groupchats
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  532. jonasw Holger, yeah, biboumi would have to poll or do something similar
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  534. Holger That could also help affiliation list entries and nickname registrations and stuff like that.
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  540. jonasw (or require presence subscription)
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  589. moparisthebest Dave Cridland, DOH is only provided by a few providers and is easily blocked, plus SRV records can't contain sni/alpn info
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  592. moparisthebest the entire point of this is to be censorship resistant, I haven't gotten down to use cases and such yet
  593. moparisthebest it also supports domain fronting and such
  594. Zash Use Tor?
  595. moparisthebest I hear china is pretty good at blocking tor
  596. jonasw I don’t think this makes a lot of sense in general use-cases.
  597. jonasw china is pretty good at blocking a lot of stuff, even if running via VPN.
  598. Zash You can't crypto your way out of *blocking*
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  600. moparisthebest you can to a point
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  602. Zash And is blocking equal to censorship?
  603. moparisthebest yes? it's designed to get around blocking
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  607. moparisthebest and application code should be able to use the exact same logic as for xep-0368 (and kinda-posh) except a single https call instead of DNS queries
  608. moparisthebest it's a total hack that shouldn't exist, you can thank oppressive regimes
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  611. Dave Cridland I don't follow why this is more resistent than DOH etc.
  612. moparisthebest Dave Cridland, because each xmpp server runs their own
  613. moparisthebest it's federated
  614. Dave Cridland So you just block the XMPP server IP as a whole?
  615. moparisthebest then the operator spins up another xmpp server someplace else
  616. Zash Calling everything censorship annoys me. :(
  617. moparisthebest also you can use tricks to make it not look like an XMPP server
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  619. moparisthebest (you could inspect IP + User-Agent requesting this document and lie to russian govt with a 404)
  620. moparisthebest plus it supports domain fronting (send sni someunrelatedservice.com) and nothing else currently does
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  624. Ge0rG Chinese VPN detection is based on traffic patterns, so even if you tunnel through https, they'll throttle you into oblivion
  625. moparisthebest xmpp runs pretty well on slow connections doesn't it?
  626. Zash Sure
  627. MattJ It can do. I'm not entirely certain how many standard implementations handle it
  628. MattJ e.g. I think some clients aggressively ping the server
  629. moparisthebest oh thought of another reason for this, telegram is handing different server blocks to different people based on region to make IP blocking harder
  630. moparisthebest and you can only do that if you can afford to run your own DNS network
  631. moparisthebest unless it's just a page on a web server in which case any tiny xmpp server can do it
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  634. Ge0rG how many IP blocks does a tiny xmpp server have, typically?
  635. jonasw hah
  636. Maranda 0
  637. jonasw something between 0 and 1 I guess
  638. Maranda as long as you don't take in account ipv6
  639. Ge0rG Maranda: how many non-consecutive IPv6 blocks do you have?
  640. Maranda ipv4 I got like 3 IPs, ipv6 one native, and one /48 tunneled.
  641. Ge0rG Maranda: 3 IPs from different ISPs?
  642. Maranda (on the xmpp server vps, but it does different stuff)
  643. alacer has left
  644. Maranda Nay?
  645. alacer has joined
  646. Ge0rG Maranda: how do you want to get around blocking with that?
  647. Maranda well they're non consecutive though
  648. jonasw "how many blocks with different rwhois do you have?" is probably the most reasonable question in this context ;-)
  649. Maranda the ipv4 addresses are all from different CIDRs
  650. Ge0rG I've got a dozen or so IPs from my core ISP, over two different CIDRs. And I could arrange for traffic redirects on two other ASNs, more if I involve friends.
  651. Maranda Ge0rG, I'm not sure neither I care about blocking I just answered your ip question btw
  652. moparisthebest Ge0rG, well if you could aws and such, a lot
  653. Ge0rG moparisthebest: do the moxie dance?
  654. moparisthebest regardless, way more than if you have to run your own distributed global dns network
  655. moparisthebest Ge0rG, that's the whole point yes
  656. jonasw I don’t see use in that, to be honest
  657. jonasw it will be way too complex for any server or client to implement *with actual benefit*
  658. Maranda gives an eerie stare at XEP-0357
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  663. moparisthebest jonasw, anything that implements 368 and http upload should be able to implement this with, ~20 lines of code max?
  664. jonasw moparisthebest, but there’s no benefit
  665. jonasw as Ge0rG said, you need quite a bit of resources (both time and money) to do the things which bring the benefit here
  666. moparisthebest jonasw, the benefit is evading blocks
  667. jonasw I am aware
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  670. Ge0rG you can't evade blocks if all you have is one IP address.
  671. jonasw yeah
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  673. moparisthebest you can if they don't know it's an xmpp server, and you can for a bit
  674. moparisthebest then you jump to a different xmpp server
  675. jonasw yeah, but, who has the time resources to actually do that
  676. moparisthebest plus right now even big xmpp servers can't do domain fronting etc without custom clients
  677. Dave Cridland has left
  678. moparisthebest this would enable that too
  679. Maranda well I added on lightwitch.org a xep 368 record for direct tls c2s on port 443, I played with port multiplexing a bit.
  680. Maranda :P
  681. jonasw yeah, 368 was simple and such, which is why it gained adoption really fast
  682. Maranda and noticed Conversation is actually using it.
  683. jonasw but this isn’t simple
  684. moparisthebest explain how it's any different?
  685. jonasw and it doesn’t bring any benefit without additional resources (time to hop IPs, and the actual IPs to hop to)
  686. Maranda jonasw, I'm not sure if I should consider implementing direct tls for s2s too...
  687. Kev has left
  688. moparisthebest jonasw, it does, domain fronting
  689. jonasw moparisthebest, where does that still work?
  690. jonasw I heard google and AWS kill you if you do that
  691. moparisthebest if you are a huge service like signal maybe
  692. Dave Cridland has left
  693. moparisthebest just as a future view, this is step 1 to censorship (blocking for Zash) proof xmpp
  694. moparisthebest other stuff we talked about is being able to keep your contact list/conversations and hop between any xmpp server you like at any time, even being able to be connected to multiple at the same time (clients would ignore jid and use a cryptographic identifier instead, servers would be unchanged)
  695. moparisthebest fun stuff
  696. Maranda has left
  697. moparisthebest oh also allowing contact's clients to route messages, the fun possibilities are endless
  698. jonasw that’s mostly stuff you talked about, which I personally find quite unneeded and overkill
  699. jonasw before venturing in that direction XMPP should get it’s basic sh*t together.
  700. jonasw we’re still losing messages (#thanksomemo)
  701. Dave Cridland has left
  702. moparisthebest sure if you don't live in a place that is blocking secure chat apps this is entirely un-needed jonasw
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  704. jonasw moparisthebest, a place which is blocking secure chat apps will block XMPP too when the time has come
  705. Zash Yeah, can we get all our shit, put it in backpack, so it's together.
  706. moparisthebest not if we make it impossible to block with those changes?
  707. moparisthebest that is after all the entire point
  708. jonasw that won’t make it impossible.
  709. jonasw only harder
  710. moparisthebest you only have to make it hard enough so it's not worth trying
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  713. Zash moparisthebest: https://www.schneier.com/books/secrets_and_lies/pref.html this was a good read
  714. moparisthebest it looks like https, anyone can use any server, so as fast as you block them, new ones pop up and you interrupt no one
  715. Dave Cridland has left
  716. Zash I think you need to read it
  717. jonasw moparisthebest, it does not look like HTTPS
  718. jonasw it may look like HTTPS on the byte level
  719. jonasw but the chinese are very godo at blocking based on patterns
  720. jonasw you won’t stop /that/ with your fancy stuff
  721. jonasw (with patterns, I mean packet sizes and timings)
  722. moparisthebest so it looks like any modern interactive html5 app?
  723. jonasw moparisthebest, not quite
  724. jonasw take a look at their research.
  725. j.r has left
  726. jonasw they can detect e.g. Facebook quite certainly even through a VPN.
  727. Holger > being able to keep your contact list/conversations and hop between any xmpp server you like at any time, even being able to be connected to multiple at the same time (clients would ignore jid and use a cryptographic identifier instead, servers would be unchanged) Haha, sure. We fail at fixing avatars.
  728. moparisthebest Zash, I read this one https://www.schneier.com/books/data_and_goliath/
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  731. jonasw my thoughts exactly, Holger
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  733. moparisthebest that's just client-side changes though, you could make a version of conversations that did that today without anything extra required from servers
  734. moparisthebest it would even be backwards compatible with other clients, though not very friendly UI wise in them
  735. jonasw "just clients"
  736. jonasw because clients aren’t the main problem :)
  737. moparisthebest you specifically mentioned avatars which require all clients and all servers to change
  738. moparisthebest you'd agree changing a single client is easier right?
  739. Holger Well if we're just interested in a single client then the avatar issues become much easier to solve as well.
  740. Holger Whatever. Just implement it if it's so simple?
  741. moparisthebest I plan to
  742. Holger +1
  743. moparisthebest I don't really write specs without implementations
  744. moparisthebest usually the implementations come first, I think that makes me a bad programmer, oh well :)
  745. Zash I think you wanna write specs and implement at roughly the same time
  746. MattJ +1
  747. Zash Maybe think real hard about requirements first.
  748. Zash But all that goes out the window when you start implement anyways
  749. MattJ I don't think I've ever seen a pre-written spec survive an implementation unscathed
  750. Ge0rG > clients would ignore jid and use a cryptographic identifier instead Congratulations, you just combined the drawbacks of XMPP with the drawbacks of p2p systems and the drawbacks of mixnets
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  753. moparisthebest I looked at it the other way, benefits if p2p systems plus benefits of XMPP
  754. Ge0rG moparisthebest: what's the benefit of XMPP once you replace JID-based routing with crypto identifiers?
  755. Ge0rG Why not XEP-0174 over .onion nodes?
  756. Zash Why not normal xmpp over .onion?
  757. moparisthebest Ge0rG, routing is still jid-based, clients just collapse multiple JIDs using the same crypto identifier under one 'contact'
  758. moparisthebest and the benefit is still all the other things xmpp provides, one of the biggest being it's mobile-battery-friendly
  759. Ge0rG moparisthebest: how do you tell your buddies about your new JID if they also just switched JIDs because of blocking?
  760. jonasw I don’t even want to think how that works with MAM queries
  761. jonasw or MUCs.
  762. jonasw or anything non-trivial really
  763. Ge0rG moparisthebest: you just invented a crypto-overlay network over XMPP.
  764. moparisthebest right that's exactly what it will be
  765. Ge0rG moparisthebest: but WHY?
  766. moparisthebest fun and censorship resistance? :P
  767. jonasw for certain definitions of fun
  768. jonasw not to kinkshame, but I’m not into that I think
  769. Ge0rG moparisthebest: it won't get you censorship resistance.
  770. Ge0rG moparisthebest: because once your server is censored, you have no way to find out the new identity of your friends
  771. moparisthebest I guess that is a problem if you both switch at the same time
  772. moparisthebest DHT over XMPP ?
  773. Ge0rG why use xmpp if you can have QUANTUM BLOCKCHAIN TECHNOLOGY!
  774. MattJ https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Secure_Distributed_JID_Discovery
  775. MattJ in particular https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Secure_Distributed_JID_Discovery#DHT_Based_Solution
  776. moparisthebest nice
  777. moparisthebest verification would be solved since the identifier is a cryptographic key anyway
  778. MattJ Discussion at https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2013-February/027036.html
  779. Ge0rG Open Problems: 1. How to prevent impersonating other users.
  780. moparisthebest solved by crypto already
  781. debacle has joined
  782. Ge0rG moparisthebest: Zooko called, and he wants his triangle back.
  783. moparisthebest that's a problem *there* because you want to prove a certain jid has a certain phone number
  784. moparisthebest my thing would only want to prove a certain jid has control of a certain cryptographic key, which of course is super easy to prove
  785. Ge0rG for certain values of "super easy"
  786. Ge0rG moparisthebest: my point is: the XMPP model is not suited for what you want.
  787. moparisthebest I don't know why you'd invent something else to give you everything XMPP does when you can just overlay it?
  788. Ge0rG moparisthebest: because you'll end up with a system that combines the drawbacks of xmpp with... we've been here already.
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  790. MattJ I'm on both sides :)
  791. jubalh has left
  792. MattJ If you're going to make such a system, using XMPP as a foundation buys you a lot
  793. MattJ It would of course be quite different to what we have today, I don't think sane interop can be expected
  794. Ge0rG I want to see a list of reasons, not some hand-waving of how great xmpp is.
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  797. Ge0rG Okay, thanks. That's a reasonable response.
  798. MattJ <-- fixing production issues
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  906. Maranda okay let's see if direct tls for s2s causes a meltdown...
  907. Maranda will need to restart the server anyways.
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  1031. jonasw is there any s2s implementation of it?
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  1039. moparisthebest jonasw, I think zinid said latest ejabberd supports it
  1040. moparisthebest plus metre
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  1199. Maranda Oh Metre does it?
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  1201. Maranda just finished implementing it in Metronome
  1202. Maranda tested it with ejabberd
  1203. Maranda let's see Metre
  1204. Maranda grabs dave.cridland.net :P
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  1207. moparisthebest Isn't metronome a prosody fork? How hard would it be to patch prosody the same way Maranda ?
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  1209. Maranda I'm not entirely sure, my knowledge of Prosody's codebase sort of stilled at around 0.9 tbh 🤣
  1210. Maranda But I suppose "not much"
  1211. moparisthebest Do you support SNI and alpn too ? (For outgoing connections?)
  1212. Maranda nay
  1213. moparisthebest Not even SNI? That's a must
  1214. Maranda moparisthebest, nai and luasec 0.5/0.6 which are the most common around don't support SNI anyways
  1215. Zash moparisthebest: No need, the unencrypted stream header has it.
  1216. moparisthebest 2005 called and wants it's TLS extensions implemented
  1217. Zash LuaSec has had SNI a long time FWIW
  1218. Maranda at least I'm sure LuaSec 0.5 doesn't support it
  1219. moparisthebest Just make sure you fall back on cert errors
  1220. Maranda lookies.
  1221. Maranda nope doesn't
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