lovetoxSo this is like POSH but with added connection infos
lovetoxthough what is the use case
lovetox?
lovetoxis there a use case where we cant put these infos into srv entrys?
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jonaswlovetox, not sure if one can resolve SRV from within a web client
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pep.https://www.w3.org/TR/raw-sockets/
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Dave Cridlandmoparisthebest, I'm going to need a crapload of reasons why this proposal isn't duplicating DOH etc.
jonaswDOH?
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danielBecause nobody supports DNS over http🙄
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danielI see your point though
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jonaswmoparisthebest, have you seen https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0156.html#http ?
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Wiktorjonasw: for discovering domain name and port an extension to XEP 0156 would be IMHO sufficient, but as far as I can see moparisthebest wants something that could contain info about SNI/ALPN to be used as well as public key pins, etc.
jonaswuh
jonaswthat doesn’t make sense to me
jonaswbut I bet there’s a rationale
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Wiktorespecially that public key pinning is being withdrawn from browsers...
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ralphmWell, yeah. The problem with HPKP *in the browser*, is that if at a point in time, the wrong header was received by the browser, there is no way to undo this, except for waiting until that header's expiry. Besides the actual owner of the website messing up, the other issue is with somebody hijacking your website in some way, if only temporary, and issuing cripling headers.
ralphmOf course, for mobile apps, this is different. There, you still have the option to issue a new version of your app.
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Ge0rGapps should just do cert pinning
Wiktorralphm: yes, but the xeo that moparisthebest is authoring would be more similar to hpkp in the browser (as I guess xmpp clients would not ship with this list and would not update the list as servers change their pins)
ralphmGe0rG: please explain how you handle cert expiry. Unless you meant public key pinning, in which case I will ask: how do you handle revocation in case your secret key is compromised?
WiktorGe0rG: cert pinning can be more dangerous than key pinning, in case someone revokes your cert you're out of options, see https://scotthelme.co.uk/the-power-to-revoke-lies-with-the-ca/
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ralphmWiktor: I think HPKP definitely has merit, so if you can mitigate the above by having some way to recover from faulty headers, yay!
Ge0rGralphm: indeed I'm using "cert pinning" as a loosely defined term for pinning either the SPKI, the certificate or the CA cert.
Ge0rGralphm: which of those should be taken, I'd decide on a case-by-case basis
Wiktorralphm: well, it's just a very sharp blade, if you take extra care then sure, but I wouldn't recommend it lightly
Ge0rGralphm: I think it's not too far-fetched to have a long-living self-signed cert for an app and to roll out a new app version in case of compromise.
WiktorGe0rG: new app version? that'd tightly couple client to server, for centralized service such as Signal this is OK but for XMPP all clients would need to be upgraded... unless I'm missing something in this design :)
ralphmI agree that rolling out a new app is the easier way, but using HPKP in this particular case makes it more seamless to the user. Having to tell your user to upgrade, is a) painful, b) not trivial if you depended on the certificate/key to deliver a notice to the app.
Ge0rGWiktor: I'm only talking of apps that are bound to a given service. For other (xmpp-style) apps, I've written https://github.com/ge0rg/MemorizingTrustManager
Ge0rGralphm: right. with sufficient planning, you can have a fallback pin in the app, too ;)
Wiktorgot it
jonaswGe0rG, I’d have a backup cert in a secure store which the app already trusts. if cert A is comprimised, I roll out cert B on the services. App would distrust cert A once it has seen cert B in the wild.
jonaswthen I’ve got some time to roll out an update with cert B as primary and a new cert C as backup.
ralphmjonasw: that is more or less exactly HPKP
Ge0rGThere is an easy solution: don't lose your private keys :P
ralphmGe0rG: thanks for your theoretical insight
Ge0rGralphm: I'm full of those. Ask me for more any time
jonaswGe0rG, ah, damn, so simple a plan! pity that *I* didn’t think of that. Maybe make that an RFC, it’s genious :)
ralphm:facepalm:
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jonaswI wonder whether we want a way to signal in-band that an account has been deleted.
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jonaswexample use-case: user A registers at foreign biboumi instance B, joins a channel and sets it to persistent. account of user A gets deleted. biboumi will forever be in that channel for no use
jonaswidea: send <presence type="unavailable"><deleted/></presence> in response to presence probes.
MattJtype="error" <gone/>
MattJAlready in the RFC
jonaswMattJ, oh
jonaswdid I say something?
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HolgerBut biboumi won't actively contact the JID and hence not receive that stanza error, right?
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HolgerOh "in response to presence probes". biboumi generates presence probes?
ZashShould servers send out that to bookmarked rooms or something?
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ZashWould sorta fit with the move towards account based groupchats
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jonaswHolger, yeah, biboumi would have to poll or do something similar
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HolgerThat could also help affiliation list entries and nickname registrations and stuff like that.
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jonasw(or require presence subscription)
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moparisthebestDave Cridland, DOH is only provided by a few providers and is easily blocked, plus SRV records can't contain sni/alpn info
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moparisthebestthe entire point of this is to be censorship resistant, I haven't gotten down to use cases and such yet
moparisthebestit also supports domain fronting and such
ZashUse Tor?
moparisthebestI hear china is pretty good at blocking tor
jonaswI don’t think this makes a lot of sense in general use-cases.
jonaswchina is pretty good at blocking a lot of stuff, even if running via VPN.
ZashYou can't crypto your way out of *blocking*
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moparisthebestyou can to a point
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ZashAnd is blocking equal to censorship?
moparisthebestyes? it's designed to get around blocking
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moparisthebestand application code should be able to use the exact same logic as for xep-0368 (and kinda-posh) except a single https call instead of DNS queries
moparisthebestit's a total hack that shouldn't exist, you can thank oppressive regimes
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Dave CridlandI don't follow why this is more resistent than DOH etc.
moparisthebestDave Cridland, because each xmpp server runs their own
moparisthebestit's federated
Dave CridlandSo you just block the XMPP server IP as a whole?
moparisthebestthen the operator spins up another xmpp server someplace else
ZashCalling everything censorship annoys me. :(
moparisthebestalso you can use tricks to make it not look like an XMPP server
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moparisthebest(you could inspect IP + User-Agent requesting this document and lie to russian govt with a 404)
moparisthebestplus it supports domain fronting (send sni someunrelatedservice.com) and nothing else currently does
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Ge0rGChinese VPN detection is based on traffic patterns, so even if you tunnel through https, they'll throttle you into oblivion
moparisthebestxmpp runs pretty well on slow connections doesn't it?
ZashSure
MattJIt can do. I'm not entirely certain how many standard implementations handle it
MattJe.g. I think some clients aggressively ping the server
moparisthebestoh thought of another reason for this, telegram is handing different server blocks to different people based on region to make IP blocking harder
moparisthebestand you can only do that if you can afford to run your own DNS network
moparisthebestunless it's just a page on a web server in which case any tiny xmpp server can do it
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Ge0rGhow many IP blocks does a tiny xmpp server have, typically?
jonaswhah
Maranda0
jonaswsomething between 0 and 1 I guess
Marandaas long as you don't take in account ipv6
Ge0rGMaranda: how many non-consecutive IPv6 blocks do you have?
Marandaipv4 I got like 3 IPs, ipv6 one native, and one /48 tunneled.
Ge0rGMaranda: 3 IPs from different ISPs?
Maranda(on the xmpp server vps, but it does different stuff)
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MarandaNay?
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Ge0rGMaranda: how do you want to get around blocking with that?
Marandawell they're non consecutive though
jonasw"how many blocks with different rwhois do you have?" is probably the most reasonable question in this context ;-)
Marandathe ipv4 addresses are all from different CIDRs
Ge0rGI've got a dozen or so IPs from my core ISP, over two different CIDRs. And I could arrange for traffic redirects on two other ASNs, more if I involve friends.
MarandaGe0rG, I'm not sure neither I care about blocking I just answered your ip question btw
moparisthebestGe0rG, well if you could aws and such, a lot
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: do the moxie dance?
moparisthebestregardless, way more than if you have to run your own distributed global dns network
moparisthebestGe0rG, that's the whole point yes
jonaswI don’t see use in that, to be honest
jonaswit will be way too complex for any server or client to implement *with actual benefit*
Marandagives an eerie stare at XEP-0357
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moparisthebestjonasw, anything that implements 368 and http upload should be able to implement this with, ~20 lines of code max?
jonaswmoparisthebest, but there’s no benefit
jonaswas Ge0rG said, you need quite a bit of resources (both time and money) to do the things which bring the benefit here
moparisthebestjonasw, the benefit is evading blocks
jonaswI am aware
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Ge0rGyou can't evade blocks if all you have is one IP address.
jonaswyeah
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moparisthebestyou can if they don't know it's an xmpp server, and you can for a bit
moparisthebestthen you jump to a different xmpp server
jonaswyeah, but, who has the time resources to actually do that
moparisthebestplus right now even big xmpp servers can't do domain fronting etc without custom clients
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moparisthebestthis would enable that too
Marandawell I added on lightwitch.org a xep 368 record for direct tls c2s on port 443, I played with port multiplexing a bit.
Maranda:P
jonaswyeah, 368 was simple and such, which is why it gained adoption really fast
Marandaand noticed Conversation is actually using it.
jonaswbut this isn’t simple
moparisthebestexplain how it's any different?
jonaswand it doesn’t bring any benefit without additional resources (time to hop IPs, and the actual IPs to hop to)
Marandajonasw, I'm not sure if I should consider implementing direct tls for s2s too...
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moparisthebestjonasw, it does, domain fronting
jonaswmoparisthebest, where does that still work?
jonaswI heard google and AWS kill you if you do that
moparisthebestif you are a huge service like signal maybe
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moparisthebestjust as a future view, this is step 1 to censorship (blocking for Zash) proof xmpp
moparisthebestother stuff we talked about is being able to keep your contact list/conversations and hop between any xmpp server you like at any time, even being able to be connected to multiple at the same time (clients would ignore jid and use a cryptographic identifier instead, servers would be unchanged)
moparisthebestfun stuff
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moparisthebestoh also allowing contact's clients to route messages, the fun possibilities are endless
jonaswthat’s mostly stuff you talked about, which I personally find quite unneeded and overkill
jonaswbefore venturing in that direction XMPP should get it’s basic sh*t together.
jonaswwe’re still losing messages (#thanksomemo)
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moparisthebestsure if you don't live in a place that is blocking secure chat apps this is entirely un-needed jonasw
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jonaswmoparisthebest, a place which is blocking secure chat apps will block XMPP too when the time has come
ZashYeah, can we get all our shit, put it in backpack, so it's together.
moparisthebestnot if we make it impossible to block with those changes?
moparisthebestthat is after all the entire point
jonaswthat won’t make it impossible.
jonaswonly harder
moparisthebestyou only have to make it hard enough so it's not worth trying
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Zashmoparisthebest: https://www.schneier.com/books/secrets_and_lies/pref.html this was a good read
moparisthebestit looks like https, anyone can use any server, so as fast as you block them, new ones pop up and you interrupt no one
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ZashI think you need to read it
jonaswmoparisthebest, it does not look like HTTPS
jonaswit may look like HTTPS on the byte level
jonaswbut the chinese are very godo at blocking based on patterns
jonaswyou won’t stop /that/ with your fancy stuff
jonasw(with patterns, I mean packet sizes and timings)
moparisthebestso it looks like any modern interactive html5 app?
jonaswmoparisthebest, not quite
jonaswtake a look at their research.
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jonaswthey can detect e.g. Facebook quite certainly even through a VPN.
Holger> being able to keep your contact list/conversations and hop between any xmpp server you like at any time, even being able to be connected to multiple at the same time (clients would ignore jid and use a cryptographic identifier instead, servers would be unchanged)
Haha, sure. We fail at fixing avatars.
moparisthebestZash, I read this one https://www.schneier.com/books/data_and_goliath/
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jonaswmy thoughts exactly, Holger
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moparisthebestthat's just client-side changes though, you could make a version of conversations that did that today without anything extra required from servers
moparisthebestit would even be backwards compatible with other clients, though not very friendly UI wise in them
jonasw"just clients"
jonaswbecause clients aren’t the main problem :)
moparisthebestyou specifically mentioned avatars which require all clients and all servers to change
moparisthebestyou'd agree changing a single client is easier right?
HolgerWell if we're just interested in a single client then the avatar issues become much easier to solve as well.
HolgerWhatever. Just implement it if it's so simple?
moparisthebestI plan to
Holger+1
moparisthebestI don't really write specs without implementations
moparisthebestusually the implementations come first, I think that makes me a bad programmer, oh well :)
ZashI think you wanna write specs and implement at roughly the same time
MattJ+1
ZashMaybe think real hard about requirements first.
ZashBut all that goes out the window when you start implement anyways
MattJI don't think I've ever seen a pre-written spec survive an implementation unscathed
Ge0rG> clients would ignore jid and use a cryptographic identifier instead
Congratulations, you just combined the drawbacks of XMPP with the drawbacks of p2p systems and the drawbacks of mixnets
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moparisthebestI looked at it the other way, benefits if p2p systems plus benefits of XMPP
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: what's the benefit of XMPP once you replace JID-based routing with crypto identifiers?
Ge0rGWhy not XEP-0174 over .onion nodes?
ZashWhy not normal xmpp over .onion?
moparisthebestGe0rG, routing is still jid-based, clients just collapse multiple JIDs using the same crypto identifier under one 'contact'
moparisthebestand the benefit is still all the other things xmpp provides, one of the biggest being it's mobile-battery-friendly
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: how do you tell your buddies about your new JID if they also just switched JIDs because of blocking?
jonaswI don’t even want to think how that works with MAM queries
jonaswor MUCs.
jonaswor anything non-trivial really
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: you just invented a crypto-overlay network over XMPP.
moparisthebestright that's exactly what it will be
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: but WHY?
moparisthebestfun and censorship resistance? :P
jonaswfor certain definitions of fun
jonaswnot to kinkshame, but I’m not into that I think
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: it won't get you censorship resistance.
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: because once your server is censored, you have no way to find out the new identity of your friends
moparisthebestI guess that is a problem if you both switch at the same time
moparisthebestDHT over XMPP ?
Ge0rGwhy use xmpp if you can have QUANTUM BLOCKCHAIN TECHNOLOGY!
XSF Discussion - 2018-05-02