XSF Discussion - 2018-05-03

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  47. moparisthebest

    are there other ways of connecting to xmpp servers besides rfc-style starttls, bosh, websocket, and xep-0368 style direct TLS ?

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  84. moparisthebest

    https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/627 https://burtrum.org/hacx/

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  159. jonasw

    can XEP-0114 components send presence probes?

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  208. mrdoctorwho

    jonasw, yes

  209. jonasw

    mrdoctorwho, cool :)

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  225. Maranda

    moparisthebest, I suppose this would count as bosh as well https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0252.html

  226. Maranda has script syntax for JSON

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  228. Maranda

    unused useless whatever

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  284. Maranda

    5223 would be the defacto standard for _xmpps-client or is that still considered legacy?

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  288. lovetox

    i dont think so

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  290. lovetox

    was it not that back in time people thought nobody is going to use it anymore in the future

  291. lovetox

    and now it seems it comes back

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  293. lovetox

    oh you mean the port?

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  298. Maranda

    I mean the port yes, since there's a srv record for it one wonders if there's a registered standard port, or if we're gonna reuse legacy ssl port out of assumption lovetox

  299. lovetox

    Gajim uses 5223 if there is no srv record

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  369. moparisthebest

    There is no standard port in xep368

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  393. debacle

    I hope this "marketing question" is right here: Why does https://xmpp.org/ bring the slogan "The most secure messaging standard" in focus? There are many things to say about XMPP, and it's not bad on security, but still: Is this the most relevant single thing marketing should focus on?

  394. MattJ

    debacle, have a suggestion for an alternative?

  395. jonasw

    (speaking of marketing, shouldn’t there be a board meeting soon-ish?)

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  398. MattJ

    In 40 minutes

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  402. debacle

    MattJ, I don't have an alternative, but would probably highlight universality of XMPP (IM, IoT, group communication/social, VoIP), in contrast to a specific use case. Marketing people would probably object to blurring the focus in that way :~)

  403. Holger

    And open federation.

  404. debacle

    But "most secure messaging standard" doesn't sound really compelling to me.

  405. debacle

    Even if it is (were) true.

  406. Holger

    No idea how to pour this into a marketing phrase but would do we pay our marketing department for!

  407. MattJ

    XMPP is a protocol standard, not an open federation

  408. MattJ

    See how it's complicated? :)

  409. jonasw

    remind me, which marketing department again?

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  411. Holger

    An especially secure standard?

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  413. Ge0rG

    Who are we even marketing XMPP to?

  414. MattJ

    debacle just became our marketing department

  415. jonasw


  416. MattJ

    as being the only person to bring this up since the site was created

  417. Holger

    I was thinking exactly the same though :-)

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  419. Holger

    (But I won't join the department.)

  420. jonasw

    as if you had a choice

  421. Holger


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  425. Holger

    The subtitle is better-fitting though, I think. "Battle-tested. Independent. Privacy-focused."

  426. pep.


  427. pep.

    Also I second Ge0rG's question, "Who are we even marketing XMPP to?"

  428. jonasw

    raise the subtitle to main title?

  429. Seve/SouL wishes XMPP beig THE messaging standard :)

  430. moparisthebest

    How about "XMPP, screw walled gardens"

  431. jonasw


  432. MattJ

    moparisthebest, again - WhatsApp was XMPP based, Facebook managed an XMPP walled garden for some time, and so on...

  433. moparisthebest

    yea the who really matters, a business wants something different than privacy focused individual looking to replace LATEST_APP

  434. MattJ

    xmpp.org is for developers, IMHO

  435. jonasw

    I tend to agree

  436. pep.

    MattJ, that's what I would think. What do the statistics say?

  437. MattJ

    I think by the time an end user reaches xmpp.org, we've lost them :)

  438. moparisthebest

    "XMPP, screw walled gardens, unless you want to build a walled garden with XMPP, but then you should be ashamed because you are a bad, bad person"

  439. moparisthebest

    got a bit unweildy there

  440. jonasw


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  442. jonasw

    MattJ, buuuut... what page would an end-user reach instead? :)

  443. pep.

    I vote for moparisthebest as marketing

  444. MattJ

    jonasw, doesn't currently exist

  445. pep.


  446. Holger

    jonasw: The app store page.

  447. jonasw


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  449. Ge0rG

    "XMPP, come to us and get lost!"

  450. Kev

    Nothing fundamentally wrong with building unfederated or not publicly federated systems with XMPP.

  451. Holger

    Ge0rG: lol, very nice.

  452. Zash

    XMPP - The Standard

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  454. Kev

    "XMPP. Standards are good, and we have many to choose from"

  455. Seve/SouL

    Zash, exactly

  456. Ge0rG

    I think we need something user-friendly at jabber.org

  457. pep.

    Ge0rG, what are you waiting for

  458. pep.

    I don't think xmpp.org should worry about this though

  459. jonasw

    +w on jabber.org probably

  460. Ge0rG

    pep.: I'm waiting for some more volunteers to start together the Jabber Software Foundation.

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  462. Zash

    Ge0rG: If you want it done, you better do it yourself.

  463. Ge0rG

    Zash: I tend to agree, except for the bus factor

  464. jonasw

    starting a "foundation" all by oneself is a bit weird unless you have a few M$currency...

  465. pep.

    I say if you want traction you'd better build a service rather than a front to redirect to tons of different clients

  466. jonasw

    Ge0rG, ssss the bus-factor among the XSF members!

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  468. jonasw

    pep., oddly enough, Ge0rG already offers a service :)

  469. pep.

    jonasw, I know

  470. jonasw

    so maybe he’s at the next step?

  471. Ge0rG

    I'm offering a service, a client and consulting.

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  474. moparisthebest

    proposed jabber.org slogan: "Jabber, use the name XMPP instead unless you have a team of lawyer's to rival Cisco"

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  476. Ge0rG

    That trademark was the single most community-hurting thing in Jabber™ history.

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  478. pep.

    You mean apart from lack of money and manpower

  479. Ge0rG

    pep.: no.

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  481. Ge0rG

    pep.: money and manpower are optional if you have some dedication and no trademark trouble

  482. jonasw

    manpower is never optional.

  483. jonasw

    but dedication usually implies manpower

  484. pep.

    money can buy manpower

  485. Ge0rG

    money can buy trademarks.

  486. pep.

    we need money!

  487. Seve/SouL

    Just call it Zimpy, the chat

  488. pep.

    money and marketing!

  489. jonasw

    the long-term plan would be to (a) have good clients, (b) rebrand everything to FancyNewName once the clients are ready

  490. pep.

    Here, I just saved us

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  492. Ge0rG

    jonasw: said the author of Jabber™Cat

  493. MattJ


  494. pep.


  495. jonasw

    Ge0rG, the "Cat" is the important part, not the "Jabber"

  496. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I suggest you rename it to SchrödingersCat then.

  497. jonasw

    unwieldy and un-google-able

  498. Ge0rG


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  500. jonasw


  501. Ge0rG


  502. jonasw

    (I fear we’re now going through the same iterations I went through before settling on Jabber™Cat)

  503. jonasw

    (note that JabberCat wasn’t my first choice)

  504. Ge0rG

    > GitHub - skylerto/chat-cat: A chat application written in Node.js. There must be some kind of Rule 34 for Node.js

  505. jonasw


  506. Ge0rG

    I'm still fed up with my "mbsync must have some way to do imap idle" research results

  507. moparisthebest

    I have an idea, and I understand it might be controversial, but why don't we come up with a neat 4 letter acronym? What about XMPP ? :P

  508. jonasw

    moparisthebest, do you know of any sucessful general-population application which uses a four-letter acronym?

  509. pep.


  510. pep.

    ah it's not

  511. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: we still haven't recovered from the last time we attempted that rebranding

  512. pep.


  513. moparisthebest

    jonasw, IMAP, HTTP ?

  514. Ge0rG

    But yeah, Ex-MP-Pee is awesome.

  515. jonasw

    moparisthebest, those are protocols, not applications

  516. jonasw

    the applications are "E-mail" and "The web" on one layer of abstraction, or "Outlook"/"Gmail", "Firefox"/"Chrome"/"Internet" on another

  517. moparisthebest

    well I mean no application is named XMPP is it?

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  519. jonasw

    this isn’t about naming the protocol

  520. jonasw

    it’s about naming the IM network

  521. jonasw

    or ecosystem

  522. jonasw

    or how you wanna call it

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  524. MattJ

    "Let me send you an SMTP with the document when I get to the office"

  525. jonasw


  526. Ge0rG

    MattJ: can't you send me an IMAP instead?

  527. MattJ

    Ge0rG, sorry, I only JMAP

  528. MattJ


  529. MattJ

    I knew someone had to have done it

  530. Ge0rG

    but "submit" is not a PC word

  531. moparisthebest

    I just feel like it's about 20 years late for a rebranding

  532. moparisthebest

    but oh well

  533. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: To the Time Machine!

  534. MattJ

    Ge0rG, maybe why http://trojita.flaska.net/draft-imap-sendmail-00.html :)

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  540. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: I think there is much irony in how the JSF rebranded itself into something that doesn't do ecosystem maintenance any more, a long time ago, while burning the original name with trademark complexity

  541. jonasw

    moparisthebest, WhatsApp took XMPP, rebranded it to WhatsApp and was quite succesful at it

  542. jonasw

    I don’t see why a dedicated community of XMPP developers couldn’t do the same, but with federation.

  543. MattJ

    +1 to this

  544. pep.


  545. moparisthebest

    I don't think it was the name, I think it was the money

  546. MattJ


  547. Zash

    Ge0rG: Well, Jabber Inc was involved somehow, then got bought by Cisco..

  548. Ge0rG

    jonasw: because there is a lack of a dedicated developer community, SV startup funding and the trademark name is burned.

  549. MattJ

    "dedicated community of XMPP developers" would totally fail :)

  550. jonasw

    moparisthebest, it wouldn’t have succeeded with a crappy name like XMPP.

  551. MattJ

    Because we're terrible at everything except making protocols and writing code (and some might argue we're not too good at those things either ;) )

  552. pep.

    aren't we a dedicated community of developers already?

  553. pep.

    maybe not that dedicated

  554. jonasw

    pep., yeah, that’s the issue

  555. Ge0rG

    MattJ: the one thing we excel at is bike shedding. If life gives you lemons, make lemonade - so what should we do?

  556. Ge0rG

    Maybe go into politics?

  557. pep.

    jonasw, please free me from $dayjob

  558. jonasw

    actually, I am not really allowed in this discussion as per the "no discussions unless an XMPP related commit in the last 24 hours". and I haven’t been allowed for weeks now.

  559. jonasw

    Ge0rG, :D

  560. jonasw

    (I /wish/ I was allowed, but among the masterthesis, a bunch of private stuff going on and the job, there isn’t much time left.)

  561. pep.

    jonasw, I don't think that's an issue specific to XMPP anyway

  562. jonasw

    it’s an issue specific to FLOSS

  563. pep.


  564. jonasw

    and right now there aren’t any serious non-FLOSS federating IM products

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  566. moparisthebest

    I still think it's all about money

  567. moparisthebest

    you can push any crap product given enough money

  568. Zash

    Marketing budget!

  569. moparisthebest

    on the other hand, companies can't make money pushing an xmpp client, because it's not a walled garden

  570. MattJ

    Indeed it is

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  573. moparisthebest

    pushing a federated xmpp client*

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  576. jonasw

    I bet one of the first things a professional marketing person would say is "folks, you need a rebrand" ;-)

  577. Holger

    You can fail pushing a product with money but you can hardly succeed without.

  578. moparisthebest

    client-wise Conversations seems by far the most successful, but it's a big nothing compared to whatsapp for example

  579. Ge0rG

    jonasw: that's how they make money, right?

  580. pep.

    Holger, hah

  581. alexis has joined

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  583. moparisthebest

    jonasw, their first thing would be 'you need to hire me, a professional marketing person'

  584. alexis has left

  585. moparisthebest

    then since you'd expect them to do *something*, they'd probably pick something useless like that

  586. jonasw

    I think the name and design of a thing matters more than you’d think, but I’m afraid we have to agree to disagree here.

  587. Guus has left

  588. moparisthebest

    to be fair I understand that means nothing at all to me and more than nothing to other people :)

  589. moparisthebest

    I've been using linux on the desktop since 2006 if that tells you something about my tastes

  590. vanitasvitae has left

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  593. Guus

    It's time for the weekly board meeting. Ralph sent his apologies. Who's here?

  594. Guus

    MattJ, Martin, Nyco?

  595. MattJ


  596. Guus

    ... this does not bode well.

  597. nyco


  598. nyco


  599. nyco

    we have the quorum

  600. Guus


  601. MattJ


  602. Guus bangs a gavel

  603. Guus

    0. Role Call and Agenda

  604. Guus

    we've established that we're here

  605. Guus

    The agenda will be taken from https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings as usual.

  606. Guus

    Does anyone want to add anything?

  607. marmistrz has left

  608. MattJ

    Nothing here

  609. alexis has joined

  610. Guus

    1. Minute taker

  611. Guus

    Volunteers kindly line up in rows of 5

  612. MattJ

    *Rows of 0.5

  613. MattJ

    I'll do it

  614. Guus

    thank you

  615. Guus

    2. Topics for discussion

  616. Guus


  617. Guus

    sorry, for _decision_ that is.

  618. Guus

    3. Reviewing the commitment list

  619. Guus

    3.1 The membership survey on priorities

  620. Guus

    Mattj, how is that coming along?

  621. MattJ

    It's fine... sorry, I should have sent it out but haven't yet

  622. MattJ

    I'll aim to do it later today

  623. MattJ

    Just need to draft a short email and send the link to members@

  624. Guus


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  628. Guus

    3.2 The online shop for selling swag

  629. alacer has left

  630. Guus

    Nyco, I think you were going to do some further investigation, right?

  631. alacer has joined

  632. Andrew Nenakhov

    jonasw, > I don’t see why a dedicated community of XMPP developers couldn’t do the same, but with federation. Because too many XEPs are written by theoreticians who don't produce working implementations.

  633. nyco

    sorry, I did not dedicate time for this

  634. Guus

    (Andrew, would you mind waiting for 20 minutes with other discussions while we have our short meeting please?)

  635. nyco

    aaah, if we had threads...

  636. Guus

    nyco, can you do it before the next meeting?

  637. Guus


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  641. nyco

    difficult, but I can find time to draft something, don't expect elaborate study

  642. nyco

    is this acceptable?

  643. Guus

    iirc people were primarily interested in the price structure and a brief comparison with alternatives

  644. daniel has left

  645. Guus

    I personally don't expect an elaborate study.

  646. daniel has joined

  647. nyco

    that's it

  648. nyco


  649. MattJ


  650. Guus


  651. Guus

    3.3 Collect info on the role/responsibilities of the XO

  652. marmistrz has joined

  653. Guus

    That one is assigned to Martin - I'm assuming no-one looked into this?

  654. MattJ

    I don't think so, no

  655. Guus

    4. Items for discussion

  656. Guus

    4.1 Fundraising/Financials

  657. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  658. Guus

    I've not done much more on that. The treasurer did send out an email earlier today that he's trying to follow up on this later this month.

  659. Guus

    'this' being an inventory of the state of our sponsors

  660. Guus

    or at least, that's how I interpreted his message.

  661. Guus

    I am happy for us to leave it at that, for now - but maybe someone wants to discuss something related?

  662. alexis has joined

  663. MattJ

    That's fine by me

  664. jubalh has left

  665. nyco

    not for me

  666. Guus

    nyco, it's not fine for you, or you don't want to discuss something related?

  667. Guus

    given no response, I'm assuming the latter.

  668. Andrew Nenakhov

    Guus, sorry.

  669. nyco

    ah 😉 I do not want to discuss this, sorry

  670. Guus

    ok 🙂

  671. Guus has left

  672. Guus

    no worries Andrew

  673. Guus

    4.2: Search for XO.

  674. Guus

    let's first get clear what the roles/responsibilities for that officer are.

  675. MattJ


  676. Guus

    to bad Peter is not here, he might be able to shed some light on that.

  677. Guus

    I'll try to ping him

  678. MattJ

    He already said some time back he did almost nothing in that role

  679. Guus

    I wonder if there was something that he _should_ have been doing 🙂

  680. MattJ

    Our discussion led us to - maybe that position should be more active

  681. Guus

    or _could_

  682. MattJ

    which we'd need to define

  683. Guus has left

  684. MattJ

    Finding somebody willing to do next to nothing shouldn't be too hard :)

  685. nyco

    it's the responsibility that might frighten

  686. nyco

    it's the little non-nothing to do

  687. MattJ

    also any ambiguity in responsibilities

  688. alexis has left

  689. MattJ

    Also... 100% of the current Board is based in the EU I believe. That begs the question, must the ED be in the US?

  690. Andrew Nenakhov has left

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  692. Guus

    ED will probably outlive the yearly board

  693. MattJ

    I'm guessing not, but it seems a bit strange to have a US org run almost entirely from Europe :)

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  695. nyco

    United States of Europe 😉

  696. Guus

    That's more related to the location where we're incorporated (<- unsure of the exact english term for that), than the location of the ED, right?

  697. nyco


  698. Guus


  699. MattJ

    Guus, changing where the XSF is incorporated is a bit hard compared to anything else :)

  700. jubalh has joined

  701. MattJ

    I don't currently have any reason to believe that a non-US ED is a problem

  702. MattJ

    Just curious though

  703. Guus

    I'm wondering why you bring that up in the first place

  704. Guus

    I've never given the nationality of any officer any thought at all.

  705. Guus

    which makes my curious as why you did, just now 🙂

  706. MattJ

    I see it being a problem with e.g. bank account access, for example

  707. MattJ

    I know you said we can put Alex on a plane, sure

  708. Guus

    That's more relevant to the role of Treasurer than ED, I think?

  709. MattJ

    But it seems a bit strange having a US organisation with nobody responsible for it actually located in the US

  710. Guus

    true, but officers change. I wonder that if we act on that now, we migth end up with a similar problem anyways in a year or so.

  711. MattJ

    I'm not proposing any action. Just it was a question that came to mind in the context of the ED search

  712. Guus has left

  713. Guus


  714. Guus

    let's leave it at that for now then 🙂

  715. Guus

    5. AOBs

  716. Guus


  717. MattJ

    None here

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  719. nyco


  720. Guus

    6. Time of next

  721. Guus

    +1w is Ascension day (and Ralph already mentioned he'd not be able to make it)

  722. Guus

    shall we do +2w?

  723. MattJ

    I also may not be able to make next week

  724. MattJ

    So yes, let's skip

  725. nyco

    ok +2wx

  726. Guus


  727. Guus bangs gavel

  728. Guus

    thank you!

  729. nyco


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  750. MattJ

    Minutes sent

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  754. Guus

    Thank you

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