-
moparisthebest
are there other ways of connecting to xmpp servers besides rfc-style starttls, bosh, websocket, and xep-0368 style direct TLS ?
-
moparisthebest
https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/627 https://burtrum.org/hacx/
-
jonasw
can XEP-0114 components send presence probes?
-
mrdoctorwho
jonasw, yes
-
jonasw
mrdoctorwho, cool :)
-
Maranda
moparisthebest, I suppose this would count as bosh as well https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0252.html
- Maranda has script syntax for JSON
-
Maranda
unused useless whatever
-
Maranda
5223 would be the defacto standard for _xmpps-client or is that still considered legacy?
-
lovetox
i dont think so
-
lovetox
was it not that back in time people thought nobody is going to use it anymore in the future
-
lovetox
and now it seems it comes back
-
lovetox
oh you mean the port?
-
Maranda
I mean the port yes, since there's a srv record for it one wonders if there's a registered standard port, or if we're gonna reuse legacy ssl port out of assumption lovetox
-
lovetox
Gajim uses 5223 if there is no srv record
-
moparisthebest
There is no standard port in xep368
-
debacle
I hope this "marketing question" is right here: Why does https://xmpp.org/ bring the slogan "The most secure messaging standard" in focus? There are many things to say about XMPP, and it's not bad on security, but still: Is this the most relevant single thing marketing should focus on?
-
MattJ
debacle, have a suggestion for an alternative?
-
jonasw
(speaking of marketing, shouldn’t there be a board meeting soon-ish?)
-
MattJ
In 40 minutes
-
debacle
MattJ, I don't have an alternative, but would probably highlight universality of XMPP (IM, IoT, group communication/social, VoIP), in contrast to a specific use case. Marketing people would probably object to blurring the focus in that way :~)
-
Holger
And open federation.
-
debacle
But "most secure messaging standard" doesn't sound really compelling to me.
-
debacle
Even if it is (were) true.
-
Holger
No idea how to pour this into a marketing phrase but would do we pay our marketing department for!
-
MattJ
XMPP is a protocol standard, not an open federation
-
MattJ
See how it's complicated? :)
-
jonasw
remind me, which marketing department again?
-
Holger
An especially secure standard?
-
Ge0rG
Who are we even marketing XMPP to?
-
MattJ
debacle just became our marketing department
-
jonasw
boohahaha
-
MattJ
as being the only person to bring this up since the site was created
-
Holger
I was thinking exactly the same though :-)
-
Holger
(But I won't join the department.)
-
jonasw
as if you had a choice
-
Holger
:-)
-
Holger
The subtitle is better-fitting though, I think. "Battle-tested. Independent. Privacy-focused."
-
pep.
agreed.
-
pep.
Also I second Ge0rG's question, "Who are we even marketing XMPP to?"
-
jonasw
raise the subtitle to main title?
- Seve/SouL wishes XMPP beig THE messaging standard :)
-
moparisthebest
How about "XMPP, screw walled gardens"
-
jonasw
hah
-
MattJ
moparisthebest, again - WhatsApp was XMPP based, Facebook managed an XMPP walled garden for some time, and so on...
-
moparisthebest
yea the who really matters, a business wants something different than privacy focused individual looking to replace LATEST_APP
-
MattJ
xmpp.org is for developers, IMHO
-
jonasw
I tend to agree
-
pep.
MattJ, that's what I would think. What do the statistics say?
-
MattJ
I think by the time an end user reaches xmpp.org, we've lost them :)
-
moparisthebest
"XMPP, screw walled gardens, unless you want to build a walled garden with XMPP, but then you should be ashamed because you are a bad, bad person"
-
moparisthebest
got a bit unweildy there
-
jonasw
:D
-
jonasw
MattJ, buuuut... what page would an end-user reach instead? :)
-
pep.
I vote for moparisthebest as marketing
-
MattJ
jonasw, doesn't currently exist
-
pep.
clients.html?
-
Holger
jonasw: The app store page.
-
jonasw
:<
-
Ge0rG
"XMPP, come to us and get lost!"
-
Kev
Nothing fundamentally wrong with building unfederated or not publicly federated systems with XMPP.
-
Holger
Ge0rG: lol, very nice.
-
Zash
XMPP - The Standard
-
Kev
"XMPP. Standards are good, and we have many to choose from"
-
Seve/SouL
Zash, exactly
-
Ge0rG
I think we need something user-friendly at jabber.org
-
pep.
Ge0rG, what are you waiting for
-
pep.
I don't think xmpp.org should worry about this though
-
jonasw
+w on jabber.org probably
-
Ge0rG
pep.: I'm waiting for some more volunteers to start together the Jabber Software Foundation.
-
Zash
Ge0rG: If you want it done, you better do it yourself.
-
Ge0rG
Zash: I tend to agree, except for the bus factor
-
jonasw
starting a "foundation" all by oneself is a bit weird unless you have a few M$currency...
-
pep.
I say if you want traction you'd better build a service rather than a front to redirect to tons of different clients
-
jonasw
Ge0rG, ssss the bus-factor among the XSF members!
-
jonasw
pep., oddly enough, Ge0rG already offers a service :)
-
pep.
jonasw, I know
-
jonasw
so maybe he’s at the next step?
-
Ge0rG
I'm offering a service, a client and consulting.
- pep. hands out badges to Ge0rG
-
moparisthebest
proposed jabber.org slogan: "Jabber, use the name XMPP instead unless you have a team of lawyer's to rival Cisco"
-
Ge0rG
That trademark was the single most community-hurting thing in Jabber™ history.
-
pep.
You mean apart from lack of money and manpower
-
Ge0rG
pep.: no.
-
Ge0rG
pep.: money and manpower are optional if you have some dedication and no trademark trouble
-
jonasw
manpower is never optional.
-
jonasw
but dedication usually implies manpower
-
pep.
money can buy manpower
-
Ge0rG
money can buy trademarks.
-
pep.
we need money!
-
Seve/SouL
Just call it Zimpy, the chat
-
pep.
money and marketing!
-
jonasw
the long-term plan would be to (a) have good clients, (b) rebrand everything to FancyNewName once the clients are ready
-
pep.
Here, I just saved us
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: said the author of Jabber™Cat
-
MattJ
Heh
-
pep.
:D
-
jonasw
Ge0rG, the "Cat" is the important part, not the "Jabber"
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: I suggest you rename it to SchrödingersCat then.
-
jonasw
unwieldy and un-google-able
-
Ge0rG
ChatCat
-
jonasw
trademarked
-
Ge0rG
CatChat?
-
jonasw
(I fear we’re now going through the same iterations I went through before settling on Jabber™Cat)
-
jonasw
(note that JabberCat wasn’t my first choice)
-
Ge0rG
> GitHub - skylerto/chat-cat: A chat application written in Node.js. There must be some kind of Rule 34 for Node.js
-
jonasw
lol
-
Ge0rG
I'm still fed up with my "mbsync must have some way to do imap idle" research results
-
moparisthebest
I have an idea, and I understand it might be controversial, but why don't we come up with a neat 4 letter acronym? What about XMPP ? :P
-
jonasw
moparisthebest, do you know of any sucessful general-population application which uses a four-letter acronym?
-
pep.
ping
-
pep.
ah it's not
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: we still haven't recovered from the last time we attempted that rebranding
-
pep.
hmm
-
moparisthebest
jonasw, IMAP, HTTP ?
-
Ge0rG
But yeah, Ex-MP-Pee is awesome.
-
jonasw
moparisthebest, those are protocols, not applications
-
jonasw
the applications are "E-mail" and "The web" on one layer of abstraction, or "Outlook"/"Gmail", "Firefox"/"Chrome"/"Internet" on another
-
moparisthebest
well I mean no application is named XMPP is it?
-
jonasw
this isn’t about naming the protocol
-
jonasw
it’s about naming the IM network
-
jonasw
or ecosystem
-
jonasw
or how you wanna call it
-
MattJ
"Let me send you an SMTP with the document when I get to the office"
-
jonasw
exactly
-
Ge0rG
MattJ: can't you send me an IMAP instead?
-
MattJ
Ge0rG, sorry, I only JMAP
-
MattJ
https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-kundrat-imap-submit-00.html
-
MattJ
I knew someone had to have done it
-
Ge0rG
but "submit" is not a PC word
-
moparisthebest
I just feel like it's about 20 years late for a rebranding
-
moparisthebest
but oh well
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: To the Time Machine!
-
MattJ
Ge0rG, maybe why http://trojita.flaska.net/draft-imap-sendmail-00.html :)
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: I think there is much irony in how the JSF rebranded itself into something that doesn't do ecosystem maintenance any more, a long time ago, while burning the original name with trademark complexity
-
jonasw
moparisthebest, WhatsApp took XMPP, rebranded it to WhatsApp and was quite succesful at it
-
jonasw
I don’t see why a dedicated community of XMPP developers couldn’t do the same, but with federation.
-
MattJ
+1 to this
-
pep.
yeah
-
moparisthebest
I don't think it was the name, I think it was the money
-
MattJ
Except
-
Zash
Ge0rG: Well, Jabber Inc was involved somehow, then got bought by Cisco..
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: because there is a lack of a dedicated developer community, SV startup funding and the trademark name is burned.
-
MattJ
"dedicated community of XMPP developers" would totally fail :)
-
jonasw
moparisthebest, it wouldn’t have succeeded with a crappy name like XMPP.
-
MattJ
Because we're terrible at everything except making protocols and writing code (and some might argue we're not too good at those things either ;) )
-
pep.
aren't we a dedicated community of developers already?
-
pep.
maybe not that dedicated
-
jonasw
pep., yeah, that’s the issue
-
Ge0rG
MattJ: the one thing we excel at is bike shedding. If life gives you lemons, make lemonade - so what should we do?
-
Ge0rG
Maybe go into politics?
-
pep.
jonasw, please free me from $dayjob
-
jonasw
actually, I am not really allowed in this discussion as per the "no discussions unless an XMPP related commit in the last 24 hours". and I haven’t been allowed for weeks now.
-
jonasw
Ge0rG, :D
-
jonasw
(I /wish/ I was allowed, but among the masterthesis, a bunch of private stuff going on and the job, there isn’t much time left.)
-
pep.
jonasw, I don't think that's an issue specific to XMPP anyway
-
jonasw
it’s an issue specific to FLOSS
-
pep.
yes
-
jonasw
and right now there aren’t any serious non-FLOSS federating IM products
-
moparisthebest
I still think it's all about money
-
moparisthebest
you can push any crap product given enough money
-
Zash
Marketing budget!
-
moparisthebest
on the other hand, companies can't make money pushing an xmpp client, because it's not a walled garden
-
MattJ
Indeed it is
-
moparisthebest
pushing a federated xmpp client*
-
jonasw
I bet one of the first things a professional marketing person would say is "folks, you need a rebrand" ;-)
-
Holger
You can fail pushing a product with money but you can hardly succeed without.
-
moparisthebest
client-wise Conversations seems by far the most successful, but it's a big nothing compared to whatsapp for example
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: that's how they make money, right?
-
pep.
Holger, hah
-
moparisthebest
jonasw, their first thing would be 'you need to hire me, a professional marketing person'
-
moparisthebest
then since you'd expect them to do *something*, they'd probably pick something useless like that
-
jonasw
I think the name and design of a thing matters more than you’d think, but I’m afraid we have to agree to disagree here.
-
moparisthebest
to be fair I understand that means nothing at all to me and more than nothing to other people :)
-
moparisthebest
I've been using linux on the desktop since 2006 if that tells you something about my tastes
-
Guus
It's time for the weekly board meeting. Ralph sent his apologies. Who's here?
-
Guus
MattJ, Martin, Nyco?
-
MattJ
Hey
-
Guus
... this does not bode well.
-
nyco
Hello
-
nyco
test
-
nyco
we have the quorum
-
Guus
yey
-
MattJ
:)
- Guus bangs a gavel
-
Guus
0. Role Call and Agenda
-
Guus
we've established that we're here
-
Guus
The agenda will be taken from https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings as usual.
-
Guus
Does anyone want to add anything?
-
MattJ
Nothing here
-
Guus
1. Minute taker
-
Guus
Volunteers kindly line up in rows of 5
-
MattJ
*Rows of 0.5
-
MattJ
I'll do it
-
Guus
thank you
-
Guus
2. Topics for discussion
-
Guus
(none)
-
Guus
sorry, for _decision_ that is.
-
Guus
3. Reviewing the commitment list
-
Guus
3.1 The membership survey on priorities
-
Guus
Mattj, how is that coming along?
-
MattJ
It's fine... sorry, I should have sent it out but haven't yet
-
MattJ
I'll aim to do it later today
-
MattJ
Just need to draft a short email and send the link to members@
-
Guus
excellent
-
Guus
3.2 The online shop for selling swag
-
Guus
Nyco, I think you were going to do some further investigation, right?
-
Andrew Nenakhov
jonasw, > I don’t see why a dedicated community of XMPP developers couldn’t do the same, but with federation. Because too many XEPs are written by theoreticians who don't produce working implementations.
-
nyco
sorry, I did not dedicate time for this
-
Guus
(Andrew, would you mind waiting for 20 minutes with other discussions while we have our short meeting please?)
-
nyco
aaah, if we had threads...
-
Guus
nyco, can you do it before the next meeting?
-
Guus
threads?
-
nyco
difficult, but I can find time to draft something, don't expect elaborate study
-
nyco
is this acceptable?
-
Guus
iirc people were primarily interested in the price structure and a brief comparison with alternatives
-
Guus
I personally don't expect an elaborate study.
-
nyco
that's it
-
nyco
ok
-
MattJ
wfm
-
Guus
thanks
-
Guus
3.3 Collect info on the role/responsibilities of the XO
-
Guus
That one is assigned to Martin - I'm assuming no-one looked into this?
-
MattJ
I don't think so, no
-
Guus
4. Items for discussion
-
Guus
4.1 Fundraising/Financials
-
Guus
I've not done much more on that. The treasurer did send out an email earlier today that he's trying to follow up on this later this month.
-
Guus
'this' being an inventory of the state of our sponsors
-
Guus
or at least, that's how I interpreted his message.
-
Guus
I am happy for us to leave it at that, for now - but maybe someone wants to discuss something related?
-
MattJ
That's fine by me
-
nyco
not for me
-
Guus
nyco, it's not fine for you, or you don't want to discuss something related?
-
Guus
given no response, I'm assuming the latter.
-
Andrew Nenakhov
Guus, sorry.
-
nyco
ah 😉 I do not want to discuss this, sorry
-
Guus
ok 🙂
-
Guus
no worries Andrew
-
Guus
4.2: Search for XO.
-
Guus
let's first get clear what the roles/responsibilities for that officer are.
-
MattJ
Right
-
Guus
to bad Peter is not here, he might be able to shed some light on that.
-
Guus
I'll try to ping him
-
MattJ
He already said some time back he did almost nothing in that role
-
Guus
I wonder if there was something that he _should_ have been doing 🙂
-
MattJ
Our discussion led us to - maybe that position should be more active
-
Guus
or _could_
-
MattJ
which we'd need to define
-
MattJ
Finding somebody willing to do next to nothing shouldn't be too hard :)
-
nyco
it's the responsibility that might frighten
-
nyco
it's the little non-nothing to do
-
MattJ
also any ambiguity in responsibilities
-
MattJ
Also... 100% of the current Board is based in the EU I believe. That begs the question, must the ED be in the US?
-
Guus
ED will probably outlive the yearly board
-
MattJ
I'm guessing not, but it seems a bit strange to have a US org run almost entirely from Europe :)
-
nyco
United States of Europe 😉
-
Guus
That's more related to the location where we're incorporated (<- unsure of the exact english term for that), than the location of the ED, right?
-
nyco
USE
-
Guus
USEMINUSUK soon
-
MattJ
Guus, changing where the XSF is incorporated is a bit hard compared to anything else :)
-
MattJ
I don't currently have any reason to believe that a non-US ED is a problem
-
MattJ
Just curious though
-
Guus
I'm wondering why you bring that up in the first place
-
Guus
I've never given the nationality of any officer any thought at all.
-
Guus
which makes my curious as why you did, just now 🙂
-
MattJ
I see it being a problem with e.g. bank account access, for example
-
MattJ
I know you said we can put Alex on a plane, sure
-
Guus
That's more relevant to the role of Treasurer than ED, I think?
-
MattJ
But it seems a bit strange having a US organisation with nobody responsible for it actually located in the US
-
Guus
true, but officers change. I wonder that if we act on that now, we migth end up with a similar problem anyways in a year or so.
-
MattJ
I'm not proposing any action. Just it was a question that came to mind in the context of the ED search
-
Guus
ok
-
Guus
let's leave it at that for now then 🙂
-
Guus
5. AOBs
-
Guus
anyone?
-
MattJ
None here
-
nyco
none
-
Guus
6. Time of next
-
Guus
+1w is Ascension day (and Ralph already mentioned he'd not be able to make it)
-
Guus
shall we do +2w?
-
MattJ
I also may not be able to make next week
-
MattJ
So yes, let's skip
-
nyco
ok +2wx
-
Guus
ok
- Guus bangs gavel
-
Guus
thank you!
-
nyco
thx
-
MattJ
Minutes sent
-
Guus
Thank you