XSF Discussion - 2018-05-04

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  253. winfried GDPR
  254. jonasw in 2 hours?
  255. winfried (oops did I do it wrong?)
  256. jonasw my last information was 1300 CEST
  257. jonasw (a.k.a. 1100Z, so maybe timezone confusion?)
  258. winfried probably... feel I am living in a different zone right now ;-)
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  260. winfried "Date of Next: 2018/05/04 11:00 UTC" - I am not totally crazy ;-)
  261. jonasw oh oops
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  263. jonasw welp
  264. Kev 11:00Z is in two hours (just under)
  265. winfried From the mail from pep.
  266. jonasw right
  267. jonasw ah
  268. jonasw now I’m super confused
  269. jonasw and I *do* have UTC timestamps in MUCs.
  270. winfried so am I
  271. jonasw I don’t seem to be awake
  272. Kev It's 09:07Z at the moment.
  273. jonasw 09:06:09 winfried> "Date of Next: 2018/05/04 11:00 UTC" - I am not totally crazy ;-)
  274. jonasw so yes, GDPR in 2h
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  276. winfried is fixing timezone bug in his mind
  277. jonasw echo 'Etc/Utc' | ssh winfried 'sudo tee /etc/localtime'
  278. winfried dives into a mild jetlag, Amsterdam is not in UTC
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  286. winfried I know where it is coming from: I always regard myself as the center of the world. :-D
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  296. winfried will be back at 11:00 UTC ;-)
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  298. jonasw gl
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  355. winfried second attempt ;-)
  356. jonasw riiight, and I managed to entirely forget about this in the meantime :)
  357. jonasw I’m goood
  358. jonasw pep., Ge0rG, GDPR in 0
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  360. pep. !
  361. pep. Same, I did also entirely forget
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  363. pep. So, what's up for today
  364. winfried When updating the WiKi, I came across a question (is MAM 6.1a or 6.1b)
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  367. winfried I want to discuss briefly how we handle existing specs
  368. pep. I think we settled on MAM is opt-in?
  369. pep. And that should be fixed in the XEP/clients
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  372. jonasw (clients)
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  374. winfried pep.: correct, but, if i recall correctly, the reason for it was that MAM is not 'naturally' part of the package when you are communicating
  375. pep. We won't go as far as to prompt the user when he decides to enable MAM right? I mean from the server. « Hey you're enabling MAM, here is what happens no: [..] »
  376. winfried pep.: exact
  377. pep. noa*
  378. pep. *nao
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  380. pep. I'm not sure if we should go this road
  381. winfried but just enabling MAM rather is requesting a service in sense of art 6.1b then an opt-in in the sense of art 6.1a
  382. Ge0rG sorry I'm late.
  383. winfried welcome, Ge0rG
  384. jonasw winfried, is it? I’d say it’s kinda 6.1a
  385. jonasw is it very relevant?
  386. jonasw (which of it it is)
  387. winfried yes, 6.1a has quite tight regulations (art. 7)
  388. winfried 6.1b not
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  390. jonasw winfried, Art 7 should be no problem for enabling MAM
  391. winfried And the server operator should prove the client has asked the question, kind of hard
  392. jonasw winfried, that was one of my original questions in the whole GDPR-in-XMPP discussion
  393. jonasw who is liable if the client didn’t properly ask?
  394. jonasw is it the client developer? or can the server operator rely on the client asking properly and blame the client if it didn’t?
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  397. pep. yeah and we haven't answered this really. Not that I'm qualified to
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  399. winfried we can avoid that problem altogether if it is 6.1b, what is rather appropriate IMHO because enabling MAM is requesting a storage service
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  401. jonasw I’m not convinced though that this is any type of contract
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  403. winfried jonasw: what is your doubt?
  404. jonasw it may be my IANAL, but when I think contract, I think more formal than ticking a box in a UI
  405. jonasw with terms & conditions I can read and am aware of etc.
  406. pep. jonasw, that's what the EULA XEP is for right
  407. jonasw maybe
  408. pep. When I asked above « are we going to prompt the user when he decides to enable MAM, from the server », I had in mind some version of that
  409. winfried the eula xep is for the obligation to inform. And because the MAM (in case of a muc) may be hosted on an other server, it may be appropiate to include a link to the EULA in that question to...
  410. pep. Like, client issues MAM query, EULA kicks in and requests ticking a box, and MAM gets enabled only if accepted
  411. jonasw winfried, and then, wouldn’t the server operator still have to kinda prove that htere’s that contract with the user, in case of doubt?
  412. pep. I think the burden of proof is required anyway
  413. winfried pep.: using the service is enough burden of proof for a contract, not for 6.1a
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  415. pep. When the user creates an account, "please read terms & conditions. Here's what going to happen to your data [for X, Y reasons]. Are you ok with it?". This is what I'm picturing
  416. pep. I see
  417. winfried pep.: when going 6.1b, just informing is enough
  418. pep. Shall we allow for both in EULA then? 6.1b only (no ticking box), and 6.1a (ticking box, plus blocking operations)
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  420. winfried pep.: don't know if that is any help, you still need the infrastructure for the burden of proof of 6.1a
  421. pep. I think MAM would fall under 6.1b like jonasw. The operator can state in the terms, "If you enable [MAM], here is what will happen"
  422. winfried pep.: exactly
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  424. winfried Ge0rG: can you give your opinion on this? I propose we move on in the mean time...
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  427. pep. right
  428. winfried We have a list of XEPs that have potential deletion problems, should we check other (all?) XEPs for issues?
  429. jonasw winfried, have you followed the discussion on standards@?
  430. pep. HTTP-upload?
  431. jonasw I’d like somebody except me to reply to the last part of the thread.
  432. jonasw yeah
  433. winfried nope, didn't will look into it
  434. pep. jonasw, the part where people don't want to mix the XEP and laws?
  435. pep. protocol / laws*
  436. jonasw that, and the part with "better have a separate xep which discusses that"
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  439. pep. Yeah. well changes are still required in the XEP to allow deletion via the protocol anyway right? This doesn't have to be because of local laws
  440. MattJ Right, I think the two things are separate
  441. jonasw daniel is against a deletion flow AFAIK
  442. MattJ I'm not saying I'm in favour of deletion (or against), I just think it's a separate concern
  443. pep. yeah
  444. MattJ An out-of-protocol deletion would work just as well
  445. MattJ Meanwhile there may be a non-GDPR case where someone accidentally shares the wrong file/picture
  446. pep. Not so long ago a user asked on movim@ for that iirc
  447. jonasw hah, just the other day :>
  448. MattJ :)
  449. jonasw and that fun day when somebody posted very ... uhm ... interesting ... drawn content in prosody@
  450. MattJ I guess I somehow missed that
  451. winfried I will respond in standards and I will need some time here to think it over: there are lots of things at stake in that discussion
  452. pep. We'll need to clear this issue while we're asking for changes in lots of other XEPs
  453. Kev My uninformed take on this is that the GDPR shouldn't mean any need to change any protocols, but that having notes in specs saying "but consider this" is worthwhile.
  454. pep. Because the same question will appear over and over
  455. winfried It has also to do a bit with localization of the XMPP network and values around an open internet. And *every* technology is political and XMPP certainly is. But we must take that discussion to the standards list.
  456. Ge0rG winfried: sorry, got caught up in a business call
  457. Ge0rG feels ashamed and guilty
  458. pep. Ge0rG, pff
  459. winfried Ge0rG: expected sth like that
  460. winfried We have half an hour left now, can tick Q.2 there?
  461. winfried (can we)
  462. pep. Can we ?
  463. pep. is that Q1.2 rather than Q2?
  464. pep. I was still stuck in 1.1e in my minutes..
  465. winfried pep.: you are right.
  466. winfried I think 1.1e is about done by now
  467. pep. k, I'm not really clear on the boundaries of 1.1e, I have also mixed that with 1.2 certainly
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  469. winfried and the discussion @standards certainly is 1.3 ;-)
  470. pep. Right
  471. Ge0rG winfried: regarding the consent. I think it's technically not feasible (and neither legally reasonable) to ask for explicit consent for passing data from the user to other servers/third parties, for when the user tries to communicate with those third parties
  472. Ge0rG So "by using this server to communicate with third parties you agree that data will be passed to third parties" is IMHO a good trade-off
  473. winfried Ge0rG: agree
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  475. jonasw Ge0rG, the consent thing was about local MAM though
  476. winfried pep.: plz put that sentence of Ge0rG in the minutes, we need it ;-)
  477. pep. winfried, we already had something similar, but yes
  478. Ge0rG jonasw: re local MAM the question is interesting.
  479. Ge0rG my position is that the client needs to inform the user that by enabling MAM, they will enable MAM.
  480. Ge0rG or rather, ask the user for consent to store data on the server.
  481. Ge0rG I've called out clients that silently auto-enable MAM before. Without success.
  482. lovetox But client doesnt know server policies, so how good is that consent?
  483. Ge0rG lovetox: did I hear "data-forms"?
  484. lovetox yes good idea, but then its not only the client anymore 🙂
  485. pep. Ge0rG, so that's 6.1a realm?
  486. pep. And some more XEP (or just EULA?) required for this, as I was asking above
  487. winfried pep.: I would say: that is still informing and 6.1b
  488. Ge0rG lovetox: the server has a kind of tri-state of MAM of (undefined, enabled, disabled). The client comes and silently enables MAM. Who's at fault?
  489. winfried all processing is odne to deliver the service the user requested, nothing more.
  490. lovetox What i want to say is, it would make sense for the server to communicate the policy on enable, or a xep that lets us retrieve those
  491. pep. ok
  492. Ge0rG I'm not sure how far we can put MAM in 6.1b land
  493. lovetox so we can really inform the user, not just say "we now going to store data somewhere, for some unkown time, and we dont know what will happen with it"
  494. winfried lovetox: correct
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  496. pep. ok, so what I've been asking above :P
  497. pep. slowly filling the gaps in the minutes
  498. winfried Ge0rG: what is your doubt? MAM is an archiving service and the user agrees to use that for that service, I would say that is 6.1b
  499. jonasw winfried, but the server would still have to prove that hte user agreed to that service, right?
  500. Kev jonasw: Surely that's part of the service agreement the user sigs up to?
  501. Kev *signs
  502. winfried jonasw: difficult wording there, when you decide yourself to start using a service, then you agree to the data processing that is inherent to that service
  503. pep. you have to know what kind of processing though
  504. pep. That'd have to be ack-ed before signing in
  505. winfried pep.: the information must be available and up to date (art 12 if I recall correctly)
  506. pep. Right
  507. winfried pep.: but for 6.1a it has to be acked on forhand, for 6.1b not
  508. pep. So in the IBR processus or similar, "This is what you are signing for. [Create]"
  509. winfried pep.: yes
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  511. pep. hmm, trying to summarize all this..
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  513. pep. date of next?
  514. winfried a hairy issue is what if a client enables MAM by default? And does it make a difference if the UI of the client suggest storage or if it suggests the absence of persistence? And who is liable then?
  515. pep. winfried, what jonasw was asking
  516. pep. 20:10:05 jonasw> winfried, that was one of my original questions in the whole GDPR-in-XMPP discussion 20:10:10 jonasw> who is liable if the client didn’t properly ask? 20:10:23 jonasw> is it the client developer? or can the server operator rely on the client asking properly and blame the client if it didn’t?
  517. winfried pep.: translated to what we know now...
  518. MattJ What happens if you have a web-based consent form, but the user has some obscure browser that doesn't render the page correctly
  519. MattJ and maybe it has a bug that swaps the "I consent" and "I do not consent" button text
  520. winfried I think we can argue that if the client suggest immediate deletion but enables MAM silently the client is liable
  521. pep. MattJ, that's always been an issue? :x
  522. Kev winfried: But that the server presumably still had to say "If you enable MAM, we'll store X"?
  523. pep. GDPR is not changing anything here
  524. winfried Kev: yes it has to inform
  525. jonasw pep., but the analogy help with the "what if the client doesn’t do things right" question
  526. MattJ pep., but now the server owner is legally liable? :)
  527. jonasw date of next?
  528. winfried MattJ: about what consent form are you talking? I am right now trying to circumvent all consent forms!
  529. winfried Mo, Tue, Thu & Fri are possible for me
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  531. pep. Mon/Tue/Wed ok for me, the rest might be more difficult
  532. winfried Mon or Tue?
  533. pep. Actually.. I'll be in Karlsruhe with some other xsf people, so I can also do it from there :P
  534. pep. Assuming it's not *too* early (as I'll be in holidays ><)
  535. jonasw Mon is not possible
  536. jonasw Tue would work
  537. pep. Tue 12:30CEST?
  538. jonasw wfm
  539. pep. I'm in CEST next week btw, all week
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  541. jonasw Ge0rG?
  542. winfried wfm
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  547. winfried I will have to go, won't be waiting for Ge0rG
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  549. pep. okay
  550. pep. The minutes won't appear just right now but I'll try to do that quickly
  551. winfried pep.: thanks once more!
  552. winfried bangs a gavel, hoping Ge0rG hears it and confirms tuesday
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  554. Ge0rG next week I'm completely unavailable
  555. winfried :-( is there any way we can still get your input?
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  593. moparisthebest thanks MattJ ! so XEP-0368 is constructed the same way (same misunderstanding of requirements section) and I copied from there so this has been a long ongoing misunderstanding :)
  594. MattJ Heh, so it is... never noticed :)
  595. moparisthebest it even got all the way to Draft that way haha
  596. MattJ Yeah, surprised nobody else noticed
  597. MattJ It's documented here: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0143.html#sections-reqs
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  601. MattJ The technical stuff should be in "Use Cases", as e.g. "This is how a client should connect to the server" etc. etc.
  602. moparisthebest I *probably* copied an existing XEP back in 2015 but I couldn't even begin to guess
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  606. MattJ Take a look at https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0297.html#requirements for a simple example, or https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#requirements for an example that replaces an existing protocol (and discusses why)
  607. moparisthebest https://github.com/xsf/xeps#new-protoxeps should mention XEP-0143 I think
  608. moparisthebest again I can't recall but I don't exactly remember reading it
  609. jonasw moparisthebest, that README is for editors, not for authors
  610. moparisthebest ok, then there should be a readme/section for authors :)
  611. jonasw right on the top it says: > To submit a new proposal for consideration as a XEP, please read this page: https://xmpp.org/about/standards-process.html#submitting-a-xep
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  613. moparisthebest ah yes and then suggests the wrong way to do it
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  615. moparisthebest (email editors instead of pull request)
  616. jonasw that’s not wrong
  617. jonasw just old
  618. moparisthebest and both links https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-template.xml and https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/xsf-source-control/ is broken
  619. jonasw mailing the editors is still totally a fine thing to do
  620. jonasw moparisthebest, PRs against the website welcome
  621. moparisthebest I would just put the correct procedure at the top of the readme in the xeps repository
  622. jonasw why not both
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  624. moparisthebest yea and fix the website
  625. jonasw PRs welcome
  626. jonasw will be happy to review htem
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  639. pep. "By creating a post, you agree to Imgur's [Terms of Service] and [Privacy Policy]" What imgur.com has btw
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  641. jonasw wait until May 25th
  642. jonasw I’m still getting at least two mails per week from esrvices which have adapted their ToS/Privacy stuff
  643. jonasw and imgur didn’t do that yet
  644. jonasw so that may still be a WIP
  645. pep. yeah
  646. pep. I'm also getting spammed by policy updates
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  653. Ge0rG There is an easy solution to the GDPR now! https://gdpr-shield.io/
  654. moparisthebest ha I love it
  655. Ge0rG > We provide you with a JavaScript snippet that you'll paste into your site's existing HTML code > We'll check every user that visits your site and block access to users from the EU. This happens in the background and doesn't affect your site's speed for non-EU users
  656. Ge0rG This!
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  659. MattJ <stream:stream><script...
  660. moparisthebest Or just put a "EU citizens not allowed" disclaimer in your TOS, that's what I did in the motd of my IRC server for German citizens
  661. Ge0rG moparisthebest: I'd say that doesn't qualify
  662. moparisthebest Why not?
  663. moparisthebest How could I be liable if you illegally use my service in violation of my terms?
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  665. Ge0rG moparisthebest: I'd say you need to explicitly block the EU IPs
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  667. moparisthebest Why?
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  674. Wiktor Does it really apply to moparisthebest's IRC server? I guess he doesn't collect any personal info there.
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  676. moparisthebest I think similar should work everywhere even if you do collect PII
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  678. Wiktor Yeah but irc doesn't need your personal data and by design it's a public forum.
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  681. jonasw but most nickservs operate using email adrseses
  682. jonasw which are PII
  683. Ge0rG And IPs. You need those against spambots!
  684. Wiktor A similar thread was recently here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16661323
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  698. Wiktor > Provided your company doesn't specifically target its services at individuals in the EU, it is not subject to the rules of the GDPR. Source: https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/reform/rules-business-and-organisations/application-regulation/who-does-data-protection-law-apply_en
  699. moparisthebest interesting
  700. Wiktor I think a ToS like moparisthebest would strongly signal it does not target EU.
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  703. Ge0rG Wiktor: I think that "specifically targeting" are weasel words that need to be checked by courts.
  704. Wiktor Sure, I'm not your lawyer, but I wouldn't panic if I was moparisthebest :)
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  706. Ge0rG Why, you can't panic often enough.
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  708. moparisthebest EU citizens are forbidden from using this IRC server - This is specified so the GDPR does not apply: https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/reform/rules-business-and-organisations/application-regulation/who-does-data-protection-law-apply_en
  709. moparisthebest added that to my motd, done and done, GDPR is easy!
  710. MattJ I really don't think it works like that :)
  711. Ge0rG MattJ: I might have said the same thing before, without convincing anybody.
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  714. moparisthebest no one is going to sue me for that anyway, but if they do, I think 'they were forbidden from using my server' is a pretty strong argument
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  716. moparisthebest also 'go *&@! yourself I'm not flying to the EU to appear in court' is pretty good too
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  729. pep. re gdpr-shield, I was going to ask what if I disable JS, but in that case I probably won't have access to the website anyway :)
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  732. Ge0rG pep.: websites on .io require JS, didn't you know?
  733. pep. yeah I know
  734. pep. That's why I corrected myself
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  739. Wiktor > This won't apply to every U.S. business — just the ones that are knowingly, and actively, conducting business in the EU. In this vein, EU courts have the discretionary ability to determine if a U.S. company was purposely collecting EU resident data and subverting GDPR compliance. So, in some cases, the inadvertent collection of personal data will be forgiven if it is found to have been occasional and "unlikely to result in a risk to the rights and freedoms of natural persons." Source: https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/2007530-how-the-eu-can-fine-us-companies-for-violating-gdpr
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  870. moparisthebest does anyone know if any servers implement bcc from here? https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0033.html#addr-type
  871. Zash https://hg.prosody.im/prosody-modules/file/f66a08f208ad/mod_addressing/mod_addressing.lua#l19
  872. moparisthebest thanks
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