XSF Discussion - 2018-05-07

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  135. edhelas hello everyone
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  137. edhelas I've implemented xep-0153 this weekend, quite simple, I was wondering what is the recommended XEP for handling avatars (with xep-0084) ?
  138. jonasw XEP-0084 is preferred, but XEP-0153 required for backward compatibility and MUCs
  139. edhelas okay
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  152. daniel Publish your own with pep, provide read access for vCard avatars and let your server do the conversion
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  157. lovetox daniel, what do you mean with "provide read access"
  158. lovetox how would i do this from a client
  159. jonasw lovetox, if you don’t find an avatar in PEP, try vcard transparently
  160. lovetox ah, only read support, i get it
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  162. lovetox i do it the other way around, read/write vcard, only read for 0084 (for servers that dont support conversion
  163. daniel I mean technically you don't _try_ because both are pushed to you. Either via pep or via hash in vCard
  164. daniel So you pretty much know ahead
  165. daniel But yes
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  168. jonasw I don’t think we rely on pep notifications to work
  169. jonasw we use it to build a local cache, but when asked for an avatar && we haven’t seen a pep notification, we’ll still try
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  172. daniel I wouldn't consider it good practice to fire 300 avatar request on launch
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  175. daniel I rather rely on pep
  176. daniel Which is kinda working OK most of the time
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  179. lovetox displaying a avatar is not so critical that i would start requesting it
  180. lovetox different story with a omemo key for example 🙂
  181. jonasw daniel, avatars aren’t requested until in-view, so there’s some time for pep to fill the gaps
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  525. pep. When is the next gdpr event again. If it was today I'm sorry I'm sick in bed. I don't know about tomorrow..
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  530. jonasw pep.: next is tomorrow, 12:30 CEST
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  632. SaltyBones gdpr event?
  633. MattJ *GDPR Party
  634. MattJ General Data Protection Rave
  635. MattJ SaltyBones, there have been a series of meetings discussing the impact of GDPR on XMPP operators
  636. Zash Groovy Drunken Party Rave
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  645. SaltyBones oh cool
  646. SaltyBones that's a great idea I hope the results are documented somewhere? :D
  647. MattJ They are
  648. MattJ https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR
  649. SaltyBones <3
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  665. moparisthebest so that page says "The GDPR is applicable to anyone offering services from EU, or to EU citizens, paid or non-paid and to anyone explicitly targeting EU inhabitants. "
  666. moparisthebest which directly contradicts https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/reform/rules-business-and-organisations/application-regulation/who-does-data-protection-law-apply_en
  667. moparisthebest which says "Provided your company doesn't specifically target its services at individuals in the EU, it is not subject to the rules of the GDPR."
  668. moparisthebest right?
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  670. moparisthebest cc pep. jonasw winfried ^
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  793. Holger The first link on https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/jabber-trademark/whats-required.html ("actual license language") is dead, FWIW.
  794. Zash RIP
  795. Zash guesses https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/jabber-trademark/trademark-license-agreement.html
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  799. moparisthebest but as far as anyone knows right now, there is no actual document from cisco granting that, at least last time I talked to peter he said he would look for it
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  804. Holger moparisthebest: So the last sentence on https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/jabber-trademark/background is wrong?
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  808. Neustradamus A lot of links are dead since the XMPP.org server crash
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  810. Zash Wasn't there a giant issue collecting them all?
  811. moparisthebest Holger, so if you read it, it was a trial agreement for 12 months, at which time they would make another agreement
  812. moparisthebest that other agreement either 1) never happened or 2) no one knows where it is
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  814. moparisthebest peter said he would look for it, I haven't followed up
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  816. moparisthebest oh right, and after the 12 months JINC was supposed to transfer the trademark to the JSF, which obviously never happened, right?
  817. Holger moparisthebest: Can't find any of this in https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_License_Agreement.pdf but whatever.
  818. moparisthebest Holger, https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_Enforcement_Agreement.pdf section 3. Term and Termination
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  826. Holger So the Enforcement Agreement supersedes the License Agreement?
  827. moparisthebest it came after?
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  829. Holger It's not about a different topic (using the trademark vs. administering it)?
  830. moparisthebest I'm not a lawyer, it's just clear https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_Enforcement_Agreement.pdf is no longer in effect right?
  831. Holger Maybe, but I thought you were saying nothing is in effect.
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  834. moparisthebest I don't know, it all seems very questionable though
  835. moparisthebest I'd kind of wager no one currently at cisco knows anything about it
  836. Holger Legal stuff always feels fragile to me.
  837. Zash It is
  838. Zash It's code that runs on PEOPLE
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  841. moparisthebest I feel like the XSF should probably look into it and answer these questions before handing out any more sublicenses or recommending using the term
  842. moparisthebest is there an official way to pester the board about this? :)
  843. Zash Haxxor the Trello?
  844. moparisthebest hmm seems easier to just crash the next board meeting
  845. moparisthebest if I happen to be lurking at the same time
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  848. moparisthebest Holger, it says it 'conteplates the grant to the JSF by JINC of a perpetual royalty-free license to use the jabber trademark'
  849. moparisthebest and it's no longer in effect
  850. moparisthebest seems to me unless there is another agreement the JSF lost that license after a year?
  851. moparisthebest again who knows, I'm a programmer, meh
  852. moparisthebest OH wait I think I get it
  853. moparisthebest https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_License_Agreement.pdf allows the JSF to *use* the trademark, it explicitly says it is NOT allowed to sublicense it
  854. moparisthebest then https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_Enforcement_Agreement.pdf allows sublicensing for a trial period of 12 months
  855. moparisthebest is that right?
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  857. Ge0rG moparisthebest: IIRC that trial is automatically converted into a full license after the year
  858. moparisthebest Ge0rG, where does it say that?
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  860. moparisthebest Upon termination of this Agreement other than in connection with the transfer of the ownership of the mark to the JSF, JINC shall again become soley responsible for administration of the mark.
  861. moparisthebest that's section 3 of https://xmpp.org/docs/Trademark_Enforcement_Agreement.pdf
  862. moparisthebest so I think we can all agree the ownership did not transfer right?
  863. Ge0rG moparisthebest: I've read through all of these documents last year, and I wanted to make the sub license process easier. I failed on stpeter
  864. moparisthebest which I think means that agreement is no longer in effect
  865. Ge0rG moparisthebest: but my reading is that the xsf is actually legally allowed to sublicense
  866. moparisthebest as I read it, XSF has no right at all to sub license, after May 2nd, 2004
  867. moparisthebest where Ge0rG ? not saying you are wrong, just that I don't see that part
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  875. Ge0rG moparisthebest: stpeter will know
  876. moparisthebest we talked about it in here, he said he'd look for the next agreement
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  879. moparisthebest but in the meantime, handing out sublicenses based on "we think someone has the contract in a filing cabinet" is pretty shaky
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  885. Ge0rG moparisthebest: that's a Board topic. I tried it multiple times and failed, but with different questions
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  887. winfried moparisthebest: old question, three ways you can be subject to the GDPR: 1) you are EU based 2) you target EU citizens 3) you collect on a large scale (millions) data on EU citizens
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  889. Zash Ge0rG for board?!
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  894. moparisthebest winfried, so the xmpp wiki is wrong, you aren't subject if you provide services to EU citizens as long as you aren't specifically targetting them?
  895. moparisthebest that would be good to correct, as then it wouldn't affect basically any xmpp servers outside EU
  896. moparisthebest Ge0rG, I agree with you re: board topic, maybe an email to members@ would get it on their radar? idk
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  903. winfried moparisthebest: if you aren't targeting them and AND you don't collect on a large scale data on them, then it wouldn't affect you. Thanks for pointing out the issue with the wiki!
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  908. moparisthebest that's great news for small friends+family xmpp servers
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  923. SamWhited If it's a small friends+family server it doesn't matter anyways unless you think your friends or family are likely to file a complaint about your handling of their data.
  924. moparisthebest well I've given random xmpp devs accounts to test stuff
  925. moparisthebest I don't really want to even consider GDPR there, turns out I don't have to, which is good
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  928. SamWhited You probably don't either way unless you're worried that they'll ask you to delete your data, you'll say no, and then they'll report you.
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  930. winfried SamWhited: personal use is not subject to the GDPR, and the GDPR is *way* more relaxed to small scale data processing. If your name is Google, Facebook or Palantir, you should worry.
  931. SamWhited Right, but not if you're hosting a server for friends and family and a few random devs.
  932. winfried SamWhited: exactly
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  961. Ge0rG SamWhited: family and friends are exempt, unless you take money
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