XSF Discussion - 2018-05-14

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  210. jonasw marmistrz, well, the XSF can’t and won’t give you legal advice on that matter
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  212. jonasw we will work on a guideline of things you should definitely look into, and a few non-legal opinions on things
  213. jonasw but that’s in no way legal advice
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  484. jonasw Ge0rG, any news on your schedule w.r.t. GDPR meeting?
  485. jonasw (tomorrow, 12:30 CEST)
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  487. Ge0rG Can't do tomorrow 12:30 (lunch break)
  488. jonasw Ge0rG, winfried, pep., what would work for you instead?
  489. pep. any, not later on friday as usual
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  491. Ge0rG I've got some time after the 25th.
  492. Ge0rG Sorry, not funny.
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  495. winfried Ge0rG: any way we can keep you involved while not attending the meetings, or is your schedule too packed for that too?
  496. winfried (BTW, I do like the 25th pun)
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  499. Ge0rG winfried: my problem is that I'm fully booked on a project that just began today, so I need to be available on short notice. I can't schedule anything for the next days, except Friday and *maybe* Thursday.
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  501. winfried jonasw pep. Ge0rG I propose we will meet tomorrow without Ge0rG and friday in full? (both 12:30 CEST)
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  503. Ge0rG It might work for me at 11:30 or 13:30 tomorrow, but I can't say for sure.
  504. winfried both 11:30 and 13:00 tomorrow wfm
  505. Ge0rG But please don't nail me on either.
  506. Ge0rG Just saying that it won't work at 1230 for sure.
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  508. winfried Ge0rG: I understand, won't nail you for it
  509. jonasw winfried, pep., I’m fully available except Thursday and late Friday
  510. Ge0rG Except maybe with NIN.
  511. jonasw so 1130 CEST would workforme tomorrow
  512. jonasw or 1330 CEST, I think I’d prefer the latter slightly
  513. Ge0rG Or is it NIИ?
  514. winfried Ge0rG: NIИ, that is a youth memory!
  515. winfried jonasw: would friday 1330 CEST work for you or is that to late?
  516. jonasw winfried, that would work
  517. winfried jonasw: oops, meant to ask 12:30 on friday , but 13:30 would work for me too ;-)
  518. jonasw winfried, 1330 works better than 1230 on friday, I think :)
  519. winfried pep.: would tomorrow at 13:30 CEST AND friday at 13:30 fit you? Ge0rG may then attend tomorrow and friday for sure (correct Ge0rG ?)
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  525. Ge0rG winfried: besides of the music, I also loved the Quake1 ammunition...
  526. Ge0rG winfried: I can't promise it 100% yet, sorry.
  527. winfried Ge0rG: sorry, I am from the wulfenstein era ;-)
  528. Ge0rG winfried: "Mein Leben!"
  529. jonasw my new portable digital audio player unfortunately cannot run doom anymore
  530. jonasw not enough colors (1 bit color depth)
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  532. Ge0rG https://op-co.de/vr3/files/doom.gif - I had doom running on my first Linux PDA.
  533. jonasw that’s more than one bit ;-)
  534. Ge0rG Last modified 2004-01-31 18:48. Wow, that's less than I thought it'd be.
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  536. jonasw (granted, people *did* run doom on black/white LCD TI Voyage 200 calculators by tricking the display into displaying 2 bit grayscale or something)
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  559. edhelas https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17063761
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  564. winfried edhelas: there we go again...
  565. Zash ZZzzz...
  566. edhelas > That said, I think that main problem with Jabber is lack of a single entity pushing it. So it'll naturally lose fight against corporation with billion-dollar marketing budgets. With Matrix it might be better.
  567. Dave Cridland has left
  568. edhelas :D
  569. edhelas let's built a decentralized network, but handled by a single entity :-°
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  581. daniel Wait the performance of the matrix server is so bad that had to disable presence?
  582. Ge0rG Where can I find old versions of XEP-0045 (which define the GC1 behavior)
  583. daniel Is this for real 😂
  584. Wiktor maybe that's just me but I think they have a point, Arathorn is very active both on social media, and getting publicity (French government case), they operate like a corporation but Matrix is still federated (anyone can run the instance etc.)
  585. goffi catching a bit conversation on standard@ after a while, for the record I'm strongly willing/needing a deletion mechanism for file sharing (I'm not using HTTP upload, but would be nice to make it generic enough so it can be used by HTTP upload). I was planing to use ad-hoc commands for that, and propose a XEP after testing on the field.
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  587. Zash What came first, Jabber Inc. or the JSF?
  588. Ge0rG https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/ only goes back to 1.16 :(
  589. edhelas daniel you don't have performance problems anymore if you remove the heavy features
  590. daniel I mean honestly I want to like matrix. And I actually hope they will succeed. They do some (non technical) things a lot better than the jabber community or the xsf
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  592. daniel But from all I hear their stack is just polished shit just as xmpp is
  593. Zash Marketing?
  594. Zash It'd be nice if they had learned from XMPP, but from what I can see, they're following the exact same path.
  595. daniel Yeah Marketing fundraising to employ full time people. Their way of extending the standard that you basically have to submit a PR for the spec, the implementation in the server and the client at the same time
  596. Zash I'm sure Jabber was just as cool back when there was one client, one server, transports were all the rage and Jabber Inc. wasn't bought by Cisco yet.
  597. Zash Just wait until there are more than one of independently developed servers and clients, it'll be exactly the same as XMPP.
  598. daniel Rumor has that they are actively discouraging new server implementations
  599. goffi Zash: that's one of the main issue I have with matrix (with their initial aggressivity with XMPP), it's all controlled by one company and a few people.
  600. Zash Wasn't the excuse for the reference server being slow "but we're rewriting it in rust!!!"
  601. Holger Go!
  602. Zash Samesame
  603. Holger Yeah their server story looks like a desaster.
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  605. Zash But otoh, Jabber was started as an open source project, not as/by a company with a marketing budget.
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  607. Zash > List of acquisitions by Cisco Systems (redirect from Jabber, Inc.) Heh
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  609. edhelas 2019, Cisco is buying Matrix.inc
  610. Zash What about going through the IETF and having a (Software|Standards) Foundation?
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  615. daniel I mean in a way it's interesting to see how their approach pans out in the next 5-10 years
  616. daniel If it's still a somewhat open standard in 10 years that you could federate with their approach might have been proven more effective
  617. daniel I don't think there is anything inherently bad with a single company providing the reference implementation. As long as you always have the *option* of forking while still federation
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  620. daniel *federating
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  629. winfried I think the real problem is the difference between an open chat application like Matrix and an ecosystem like XMPP. Getting started is *much* harder in the ecosystem, but in the long run you want an ecosystem not just one implementation.
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  631. Zash winfried: Doesn't that depend somewhat on who "you" are, and what their goals are?
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  633. Andrew Nenakhov Matrix uniformity comes from it's relative obscurity. Once it will have multiple implementations, it'll be absolutely same as XMPP.
  634. moparisthebest except without the specs/documentation ?
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  636. Wiktor moparisthebest: you mean that https://matrix.org/docs/spec/ ?
  637. Andrew Nenakhov And of course they are less obsessed with this crypto bullshit
  638. daniel Are they?
  639. moparisthebest didn't they develop OLM themselves?
  640. winfried Zash: don't think so, when maintaining a system for a longer time then 5-7 years, you want an ecosystem, not just one application. Up to that point funding, acquiring technology/knowledge etc is easier when you use a monolithic code base. Once you are up to your first big overhaul, you get your regrets. No matter who you are and what your goal is....
  641. pep. What about some projects applying for MOSS funding
  642. pep. Xmpp projects
  643. Zash winfried: I mean like, a company wanting ultimate control, do they want an ecosystem? Or like, Signal.
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  647. winfried Zash: If I want ultimate control, I can still use the XMPP ecosystem as codebase. In matter of fact, I expect most XMPP deployments are exactly like that!
  648. MattJ .
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  650. MattJ Is it me or is the xmpp.org website slow?
  651. jonasw I think it might be you
  652. Zash 1.78s
  653. jonasw loads fine here
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  656. Zash MattJ: You've just gotten spoiled by how blazing fast the new prosody.im site is ;)
  657. efrit has joined
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  659. Link Mauve About 1.8s here for prosody.im’s home page. :p
  660. rtq3 has joined
  661. MattJ Hmm, the link to compliance suites on https://xmpp.org/extensions/ is outdated
  662. MattJ Links to XEP-0375 instead of XEP-0387
  663. forensic58 has joined
  664. jonasw MattJ, PRs welcome!
  665. MattJ I'm looking for the page
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  667. jonasw MattJ, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/content/pages/extensions.md
  668. MattJ PR in
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  670. Ge0rG So, I'm still looking for JEP-0045, version 0.4
  671. Zash archive.org?
  672. Valerian has left
  673. Ge0rG And no, the git log doesn't go back *this* far.
  674. Ge0rG Zash: do you know the URL?
  675. Zash duno
  676. Zash explore
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  681. Ge0rG I'm not sure why but "jabber groupchat history" leads to completely unrelated results.
  682. Zash https://web.archive.org/web/20021004130423/http://www.jabber.org:80/jeps/jep-0045.html
  683. Zash That seems to be as far back as it goes
  684. jubalh has joined
  685. Ge0rG Zash: you are awesome, thanks!
  686. matlag has joined
  687. Zash I'm sure I've seen the "Groupchat 1.0" protocol somewhere too, but where?
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  692. Zash Seems /attic didn't exist back then
  693. MattJ Ge0rG, have you seen https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2002-September/001485.html ?
  694. j.r has joined
  695. MattJ (not entirely sure what your current mission is, but seems like it's related...)
  696. Neustradamus MattJ: There are tickets here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues
  697. Zash Neustradamus: Too slow: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/436
  698. Neustradamus -> for https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/398
  699. Neustradamus SamWhited: ^^
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  704. Neustradamus Any news for the XEP diff tool? https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/412
  705. Zash Ge0rG: Hmm https://web.archive.org/web/20000617033408/http://docs.jabber.org:80/
  706. Ge0rG MattJ: thanks, that's another useful pointer
  707. MattJ In particular this message from that thread: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2002-September/001499.html
  708. MattJ which I'm sure you'll print, stick to the wall and throw darts at
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  710. jonasw ohmygot mcversion="2"
  711. Zash https://web.archive.org/web/20000823073740/http://docs.jabber.org:80/jpg/chgc.html Well what have we here
  712. jonasw ohmygod mcversion="2"
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  716. MattJ !praise Zash
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  719. Neustradamus I see that the redirection of docs.jabber.org is missing
  720. Zash https://web.archive.org/web/20000919185743/http://docs.jabber.org:80/jpg/x273.html examples!
  721. Zash The real spec!
  722. rtq3 has left
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  724. edhelas so simple
  725. Zash Ge0rG: Looks like the origin of the direct invite namespace https://web.archive.org/web/20020214222508/http://docs.jabber.org:80/draft-proto/html/conferencing.html
  726. jonasw <message type="groupchat" from="act3@gc.denmark"> <body>Hamlet has arrived.</body> </message>
  727. jonasw interesting
  728. jonasw a precedent for messages from the bare MUC JID :)
  729. Ge0rG jonasw: yeah.
  730. Zash <iq type='get' to='roomname@server'> <enter xmlns='jabber:iq:conference'/> </iq>
  731. edhelas jonasw that would be nice indeed, introducing each participant by all his familly name, relations and positions
  732. jonasw > get > enter
  733. MattJ jonasw, that's why most clients still support those messages (and it's handy)
  734. jonasw "still"
  735. MattJ Heh
  736. jonasw for new clients it isn’t that obvious ;-)
  737. jonasw *hint hint*
  738. Kev M-Link certainly sends messages from the room's bare JID.
  739. Ge0rG Messages from a MUC bare JID are often used for CAPTCHAs and other entrance impediments.
  740. Kev So-called "System messages". I hadn't realised those were folklore at this point.
  741. Zash Ge0rG: https://web.archive.org/web/20020207105531/http://www.pipetree.com:80/jabber/gc.html
  742. daniel has joined
  743. Zash How many groupchat protocols are there even?
  744. Zash 3 or 4 by 2002?
  745. Kev I think it was three wasn't it? gc, iq:gc and MUC.
  746. Kev But maybe I missed one.
  747. Zash "conferencing"?
  748. Zash Or is that what became MUC?
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  750. Ge0rG Zash, MattJ: thanks very much for your archeological support. Its result should hit standards@ any minute now.
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  753. jonasw oha
  754. jonasw this will help skip the time waiting for the raspberry pi to update
  755. jonasw > 33.7 kB/s 9min 42s
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  757. Ge0rG I can't see it yet.
  758. jonasw me neither
  759. jonasw but looking forward to it
  760. Ge0rG May 14 16:21:24 bender postfix/smtp[9754]: EC5C814540E1: to=<standards@xmpp.org>, relay=atlas.jabber.org[]:25, delay=3.1, delays=0.28/0.04/2.3/0.43, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as C40468FC)
  761. Ge0rG ,oO( Atlas Shrugged )
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  763. Zash shrug
  764. Zash https://web.archive.org/web/20020602221836/http://docs.jabber.org:80/draft-proto/html/sxpm.html Hah, neat
  765. jonasw Ge0rG, maybe it’s running an apt update on a raspberry pi and waits for the result before forwarding to introduce some random mixing delay
  766. Ge0rG jonasw: that would be some interesting interdependency.
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  783. Link Mauve “16:09:10 jonasw> a precedent for messages from the bare MUC JID :)”, mu-conference used to do that if some entity joined with a GC1.0 join.
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  796. Link Mauve Ge0rG, ooh, the line above the last participant was that null participant, not a ncurses bug!
  797. Link Mauve Thanks for making me notice that.
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  799. pep. Too many bugs..
  800. Zash 99 bugs in the code, take one down, patch it around, 103 bugs in the code
  801. pep. Zash: how is potato farming going
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  803. daniel Link Mauve: haven't you been at the meeting where we discussed doing the avater thing?
  804. pep. Congress?
  805. pep. At*
  806. daniel Yes
  807. rtq3 has left
  808. Zash pep.:
  809. daniel Zash:
  810. pep. daniel:
  811. Link Mauve daniel, I wasn’t expecting that to break.
  812. Link Mauve I was wrong.
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  878. Ge0rG Nasal Demons!
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  963. Ge0rG So, I want to use XMPP for my IoT. Who is the right person to give implementation advice?
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  970. jonasw depends on what IoT means
  971. jonasw I’m doing IoT-ish things with XMPP
  972. Zash Means whatever you want it to mean
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  986. Ge0rG I want to control multiple LED lighting controllers, get them automatically discovered by OpenHab, and just have to give them names.
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  1038. MattJ Ge0rG, the LED lighting controllers... are based on what?
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  1040. MattJ Mine hang off an Arduino, and you won't be XMPP'ing from those (unless you use one of the fancier models with Linux on)
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  1063. Ge0rG MattJ: esp8266
  1064. MattJ No sensible XMPPing on that either, although it runs Lua and I considered some very hacked port of a minimal subset of Prosody...
  1065. MattJ Once you factor into account that JIDs can be multiple KBs, there's no chance of a compliant implementation
  1066. Zash Prosody already doesn't normally work with that.
  1067. MattJ True :)
  1068. Zash Depending on who has the 3KB JID
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  1070. MattJ Ge0rG, in my case most things happen over MQTT, and I bridge to that from XMPP/whatever needs to. It's the simplest option
  1071. Ge0rG MattJ: I'm not going to use the Lua runtime, and I don't need 3KB JIDs on my LAN
  1072. MattJ Then you can probably manage some form of XMPP, if you're willing to cut corners
  1073. Link Mauve https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#example-216 shouldn’t this be in a pubsub#owner rather than in a pubsub namespace?
  1074. MattJ I mean, jonasw should be able to give you some tips for XMPP in constrained environments :)
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