XSF Discussion - 2018-05-14

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  210. jonasw

    marmistrz, well, the XSF can’t and won’t give you legal advice on that matter

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  212. jonasw

    we will work on a guideline of things you should definitely look into, and a few non-legal opinions on things

  213. jonasw

    but that’s in no way legal advice

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  484. jonasw

    Ge0rG, any news on your schedule w.r.t. GDPR meeting?

  485. jonasw

    (tomorrow, 12:30 CEST)

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  487. Ge0rG

    Can't do tomorrow 12:30 (lunch break)

  488. jonasw

    Ge0rG, winfried, pep., what would work for you instead?

  489. pep.

    any, not later on friday as usual

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  491. Ge0rG

    I've got some time after the 25th.

  492. Ge0rG

    Sorry, not funny.

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  495. winfried

    Ge0rG: any way we can keep you involved while not attending the meetings, or is your schedule too packed for that too?

  496. winfried

    (BTW, I do like the 25th pun)

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  499. Ge0rG

    winfried: my problem is that I'm fully booked on a project that just began today, so I need to be available on short notice. I can't schedule anything for the next days, except Friday and *maybe* Thursday.

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  501. winfried

    jonasw pep. Ge0rG I propose we will meet tomorrow without Ge0rG and friday in full? (both 12:30 CEST)

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  503. Ge0rG

    It might work for me at 11:30 or 13:30 tomorrow, but I can't say for sure.

  504. winfried

    both 11:30 and 13:00 tomorrow wfm

  505. Ge0rG

    But please don't nail me on either.

  506. Ge0rG

    Just saying that it won't work at 1230 for sure.

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  508. winfried

    Ge0rG: I understand, won't nail you for it

  509. jonasw

    winfried, pep., I’m fully available except Thursday and late Friday

  510. Ge0rG

    Except maybe with NIN.

  511. jonasw

    so 1130 CEST would workforme tomorrow

  512. jonasw

    or 1330 CEST, I think I’d prefer the latter slightly

  513. Ge0rG

    Or is it NIИ?

  514. winfried

    Ge0rG: NIИ, that is a youth memory!

  515. winfried

    jonasw: would friday 1330 CEST work for you or is that to late?

  516. jonasw

    winfried, that would work

  517. winfried

    jonasw: oops, meant to ask 12:30 on friday , but 13:30 would work for me too ;-)

  518. jonasw

    winfried, 1330 works better than 1230 on friday, I think :)

  519. winfried

    pep.: would tomorrow at 13:30 CEST AND friday at 13:30 fit you? Ge0rG may then attend tomorrow and friday for sure (correct Ge0rG ?)

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  525. Ge0rG

    winfried: besides of the music, I also loved the Quake1 ammunition...

  526. Ge0rG

    winfried: I can't promise it 100% yet, sorry.

  527. winfried

    Ge0rG: sorry, I am from the wulfenstein era ;-)

  528. Ge0rG

    winfried: "Mein Leben!"

  529. jonasw

    my new portable digital audio player unfortunately cannot run doom anymore

  530. jonasw

    not enough colors (1 bit color depth)

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  532. Ge0rG

    https://op-co.de/vr3/files/doom.gif - I had doom running on my first Linux PDA.

  533. jonasw

    that’s more than one bit ;-)

  534. Ge0rG

    Last modified 2004-01-31 18:48. Wow, that's less than I thought it'd be.

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  536. jonasw

    (granted, people *did* run doom on black/white LCD TI Voyage 200 calculators by tricking the display into displaying 2 bit grayscale or something)

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  559. edhelas


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  564. winfried

    edhelas: there we go again...

  565. Zash


  566. edhelas

    > That said, I think that main problem with Jabber is lack of a single entity pushing it. So it'll naturally lose fight against corporation with billion-dollar marketing budgets. With Matrix it might be better.

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  568. edhelas


  569. edhelas

    let's built a decentralized network, but handled by a single entity :-°

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  581. daniel

    Wait the performance of the matrix server is so bad that had to disable presence?

  582. Ge0rG

    Where can I find old versions of XEP-0045 (which define the GC1 behavior)

  583. daniel

    Is this for real 😂

  584. Wiktor

    maybe that's just me but I think they have a point, Arathorn is very active both on social media, and getting publicity (French government case), they operate like a corporation but Matrix is still federated (anyone can run the instance etc.)

  585. goffi

    catching a bit conversation on standard@ after a while, for the record I'm strongly willing/needing a deletion mechanism for file sharing (I'm not using HTTP upload, but would be nice to make it generic enough so it can be used by HTTP upload). I was planing to use ad-hoc commands for that, and propose a XEP after testing on the field.

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  587. Zash

    What came first, Jabber Inc. or the JSF?

  588. Ge0rG

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/ only goes back to 1.16 :(

  589. edhelas

    daniel you don't have performance problems anymore if you remove the heavy features

  590. daniel

    I mean honestly I want to like matrix. And I actually hope they will succeed. They do some (non technical) things a lot better than the jabber community or the xsf

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  592. daniel

    But from all I hear their stack is just polished shit just as xmpp is

  593. Zash


  594. Zash

    It'd be nice if they had learned from XMPP, but from what I can see, they're following the exact same path.

  595. daniel

    Yeah Marketing fundraising to employ full time people. Their way of extending the standard that you basically have to submit a PR for the spec, the implementation in the server and the client at the same time

  596. Zash

    I'm sure Jabber was just as cool back when there was one client, one server, transports were all the rage and Jabber Inc. wasn't bought by Cisco yet.

  597. Zash

    Just wait until there are more than one of independently developed servers and clients, it'll be exactly the same as XMPP.

  598. daniel

    Rumor has that they are actively discouraging new server implementations

  599. goffi

    Zash: that's one of the main issue I have with matrix (with their initial aggressivity with XMPP), it's all controlled by one company and a few people.

  600. Zash

    Wasn't the excuse for the reference server being slow "but we're rewriting it in rust!!!"

  601. Holger


  602. Zash


  603. Holger

    Yeah their server story looks like a desaster.

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  605. Zash

    But otoh, Jabber was started as an open source project, not as/by a company with a marketing budget.

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  607. Zash

    > List of acquisitions by Cisco Systems (redirect from Jabber, Inc.) Heh

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  609. edhelas

    2019, Cisco is buying Matrix.inc

  610. Zash

    What about going through the IETF and having a (Software|Standards) Foundation?

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  615. daniel

    I mean in a way it's interesting to see how their approach pans out in the next 5-10 years

  616. daniel

    If it's still a somewhat open standard in 10 years that you could federate with their approach might have been proven more effective

  617. daniel

    I don't think there is anything inherently bad with a single company providing the reference implementation. As long as you always have the *option* of forking while still federation

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  620. daniel


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  629. winfried

    I think the real problem is the difference between an open chat application like Matrix and an ecosystem like XMPP. Getting started is *much* harder in the ecosystem, but in the long run you want an ecosystem not just one implementation.

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  631. Zash

    winfried: Doesn't that depend somewhat on who "you" are, and what their goals are?

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  633. Andrew Nenakhov

    Matrix uniformity comes from it's relative obscurity. Once it will have multiple implementations, it'll be absolutely same as XMPP.

  634. moparisthebest

    except without the specs/documentation ?

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  636. Wiktor

    moparisthebest: you mean that https://matrix.org/docs/spec/ ?

  637. Andrew Nenakhov

    And of course they are less obsessed with this crypto bullshit

  638. daniel

    Are they?

  639. moparisthebest

    didn't they develop OLM themselves?

  640. winfried

    Zash: don't think so, when maintaining a system for a longer time then 5-7 years, you want an ecosystem, not just one application. Up to that point funding, acquiring technology/knowledge etc is easier when you use a monolithic code base. Once you are up to your first big overhaul, you get your regrets. No matter who you are and what your goal is....

  641. pep.

    What about some projects applying for MOSS funding

  642. pep.

    Xmpp projects

  643. Zash

    winfried: I mean like, a company wanting ultimate control, do they want an ecosystem? Or like, Signal.

  644. lnj has joined

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  647. winfried

    Zash: If I want ultimate control, I can still use the XMPP ecosystem as codebase. In matter of fact, I expect most XMPP deployments are exactly like that!

  648. MattJ


  649. dwd has left

  650. MattJ

    Is it me or is the xmpp.org website slow?

  651. jonasw

    I think it might be you

  652. Zash


  653. jonasw

    loads fine here

  654. forensic58 has left

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  656. Zash

    MattJ: You've just gotten spoiled by how blazing fast the new prosody.im site is ;)

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  659. Link Mauve

    About 1.8s here for prosody.im’s home page. :p

  660. rtq3 has joined

  661. MattJ

    Hmm, the link to compliance suites on https://xmpp.org/extensions/ is outdated

  662. MattJ

    Links to XEP-0375 instead of XEP-0387

  663. forensic58 has joined

  664. jonasw

    MattJ, PRs welcome!

  665. MattJ

    I'm looking for the page

  666. Dave Cridland has left

  667. jonasw

    MattJ, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/content/pages/extensions.md

  668. MattJ

    PR in

  669. marmistrz has left

  670. Ge0rG

    So, I'm still looking for JEP-0045, version 0.4

  671. Zash


  672. Valerian has left

  673. Ge0rG

    And no, the git log doesn't go back *this* far.

  674. Ge0rG

    Zash: do you know the URL?

  675. Zash


  676. Zash


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  681. Ge0rG

    I'm not sure why but "jabber groupchat history" leads to completely unrelated results.

  682. Zash


  683. Zash

    That seems to be as far back as it goes

  684. jubalh has joined

  685. Ge0rG

    Zash: you are awesome, thanks!

  686. matlag has joined

  687. Zash

    I'm sure I've seen the "Groupchat 1.0" protocol somewhere too, but where?

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  692. Zash

    Seems /attic didn't exist back then

  693. MattJ

    Ge0rG, have you seen https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2002-September/001485.html ?

  694. j.r has joined

  695. MattJ

    (not entirely sure what your current mission is, but seems like it's related...)

  696. Neustradamus

    MattJ: There are tickets here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues

  697. Zash

    Neustradamus: Too slow: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/436

  698. Neustradamus

    -> for https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/398

  699. Neustradamus

    SamWhited: ^^

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  704. Neustradamus

    Any news for the XEP diff tool? https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/412

  705. Zash

    Ge0rG: Hmm https://web.archive.org/web/20000617033408/http://docs.jabber.org:80/

  706. Ge0rG

    MattJ: thanks, that's another useful pointer

  707. MattJ

    In particular this message from that thread: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2002-September/001499.html

  708. MattJ

    which I'm sure you'll print, stick to the wall and throw darts at

  709. goffi has left

  710. jonasw

    ohmygot mcversion="2"

  711. Zash

    https://web.archive.org/web/20000823073740/http://docs.jabber.org:80/jpg/chgc.html Well what have we here

  712. jonasw

    ohmygod mcversion="2"

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  716. MattJ

    !praise Zash

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  719. Neustradamus

    I see that the redirection of docs.jabber.org is missing

  720. Zash

    https://web.archive.org/web/20000919185743/http://docs.jabber.org:80/jpg/x273.html examples!

  721. Zash

    The real spec!

  722. rtq3 has left

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  724. edhelas

    so simple

  725. Zash

    Ge0rG: Looks like the origin of the direct invite namespace https://web.archive.org/web/20020214222508/http://docs.jabber.org:80/draft-proto/html/conferencing.html

  726. jonasw

    <message type="groupchat" from="act3@gc.denmark"> <body>Hamlet has arrived.</body> </message>

  727. jonasw


  728. jonasw

    a precedent for messages from the bare MUC JID :)

  729. Ge0rG

    jonasw: yeah.

  730. Zash

    <iq type='get' to='roomname@server'> <enter xmlns='jabber:iq:conference'/> </iq>

  731. edhelas

    jonasw that would be nice indeed, introducing each participant by all his familly name, relations and positions

  732. jonasw

    > get > enter

  733. MattJ

    jonasw, that's why most clients still support those messages (and it's handy)

  734. jonasw


  735. MattJ


  736. jonasw

    for new clients it isn’t that obvious ;-)

  737. jonasw

    *hint hint*

  738. Kev

    M-Link certainly sends messages from the room's bare JID.

  739. Ge0rG

    Messages from a MUC bare JID are often used for CAPTCHAs and other entrance impediments.

  740. Kev

    So-called "System messages". I hadn't realised those were folklore at this point.

  741. Zash

    Ge0rG: https://web.archive.org/web/20020207105531/http://www.pipetree.com:80/jabber/gc.html

  742. daniel has joined

  743. Zash

    How many groupchat protocols are there even?

  744. Zash

    3 or 4 by 2002?

  745. Kev

    I think it was three wasn't it? gc, iq:gc and MUC.

  746. Kev

    But maybe I missed one.

  747. Zash


  748. Zash

    Or is that what became MUC?

  749. j.r has joined

  750. Ge0rG

    Zash, MattJ: thanks very much for your archeological support. Its result should hit standards@ any minute now.

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  753. jonasw


  754. jonasw

    this will help skip the time waiting for the raspberry pi to update

  755. jonasw

    > 33.7 kB/s 9min 42s

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  757. Ge0rG

    I can't see it yet.

  758. jonasw

    me neither

  759. jonasw

    but looking forward to it

  760. Ge0rG

    May 14 16:21:24 bender postfix/smtp[9754]: EC5C814540E1: to=<standards@xmpp.org>, relay=atlas.jabber.org[]:25, delay=3.1, delays=0.28/0.04/2.3/0.43, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as C40468FC)

  761. Ge0rG

    ,oO( Atlas Shrugged )

  762. lovetox has left

  763. Zash shrug

  764. Zash

    https://web.archive.org/web/20020602221836/http://docs.jabber.org:80/draft-proto/html/sxpm.html Hah, neat

  765. jonasw

    Ge0rG, maybe it’s running an apt update on a raspberry pi and waits for the result before forwarding to introduce some random mixing delay

  766. Ge0rG

    jonasw: that would be some interesting interdependency.

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  783. Link Mauve

    “16:09:10 jonasw> a precedent for messages from the bare MUC JID :)”, mu-conference used to do that if some entity joined with a GC1.0 join.

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  796. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, ooh, the line above the last participant was that null participant, not a ncurses bug!

  797. Link Mauve

    Thanks for making me notice that.

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  799. pep.

    Too many bugs..

  800. Zash

    99 bugs in the code, take one down, patch it around, 103 bugs in the code

  801. pep.

    Zash: how is potato farming going

  802. dwd has left

  803. daniel

    Link Mauve: haven't you been at the meeting where we discussed doing the avater thing?

  804. pep.


  805. pep.


  806. daniel


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  809. daniel


  810. pep.


  811. Link Mauve

    daniel, I wasn’t expecting that to break.

  812. Link Mauve

    I was wrong.

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  878. Ge0rG

    Nasal Demons!

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  887. Alex

    memberbot is online for our Q2-2018 voting

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  963. Ge0rG

    So, I want to use XMPP for my IoT. Who is the right person to give implementation advice?

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  970. jonasw

    depends on what IoT means

  971. jonasw

    I’m doing IoT-ish things with XMPP

  972. Zash

    Means whatever you want it to mean

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  986. Ge0rG

    I want to control multiple LED lighting controllers, get them automatically discovered by OpenHab, and just have to give them names.

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  1038. MattJ

    Ge0rG, the LED lighting controllers... are based on what?

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  1040. MattJ

    Mine hang off an Arduino, and you won't be XMPP'ing from those (unless you use one of the fancier models with Linux on)

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  1063. Ge0rG

    MattJ: esp8266

  1064. MattJ

    No sensible XMPPing on that either, although it runs Lua and I considered some very hacked port of a minimal subset of Prosody...

  1065. MattJ

    Once you factor into account that JIDs can be multiple KBs, there's no chance of a compliant implementation

  1066. Zash

    Prosody already doesn't normally work with that.

  1067. MattJ

    True :)

  1068. Zash

    Depending on who has the 3KB JID

  1069. SamWhited has left

  1070. MattJ

    Ge0rG, in my case most things happen over MQTT, and I bridge to that from XMPP/whatever needs to. It's the simplest option

  1071. Ge0rG

    MattJ: I'm not going to use the Lua runtime, and I don't need 3KB JIDs on my LAN

  1072. MattJ

    Then you can probably manage some form of XMPP, if you're willing to cut corners

  1073. Link Mauve

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#example-216 shouldn’t this be in a pubsub#owner rather than in a pubsub namespace?

  1074. MattJ

    I mean, jonasw should be able to give you some tips for XMPP in constrained environments :)

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