XSF Discussion - 2018-05-14

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07:29:01 jonasw marmistrz, well, the XSF can’t and won’t give you legal advice on that matter
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07:29:18 jonasw we will work on a guideline of things you should definitely look into, and a few non-legal opinions on things
07:29:23 jonasw but that’s in no way legal advice
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11:27:18 jonasw Ge0rG, any news on your schedule w.r.t. GDPR meeting?
11:27:22 jonasw (tomorrow, 12:30 CEST)
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11:29:22 Ge0rG Can't do tomorrow 12:30 (lunch break)
11:29:40 jonasw Ge0rG, winfried, pep., what would work for you instead?
11:31:52 pep. any, not later on friday as usual
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11:32:19 Ge0rG I've got some time after the 25th.
11:32:25 Ge0rG Sorry, not funny.
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11:35:24 winfried Ge0rG: any way we can keep you involved while not attending the meetings, or is your schedule too packed for that too?
11:35:41 winfried (BTW, I do like the 25th pun)
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11:39:00 Ge0rG winfried: my problem is that I'm fully booked on a project that just began today, so I need to be available on short notice. I can't schedule anything for the next days, except Friday and *maybe* Thursday.
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11:41:21 winfried jonasw pep. Ge0rG I propose we will meet tomorrow without Ge0rG and friday in full? (both 12:30 CEST)
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11:41:49 Ge0rG It might work for me at 11:30 or 13:30 tomorrow, but I can't say for sure.
11:42:34 winfried both 11:30 and 13:00 tomorrow wfm
11:43:17 Ge0rG But please don't nail me on either.
11:43:25 Ge0rG Just saying that it won't work at 1230 for sure.
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11:43:39 winfried Ge0rG: I understand, won't nail you for it
11:43:51 jonasw winfried, pep., I’m fully available except Thursday and late Friday
11:43:54 Ge0rG Except maybe with NIN.
11:43:56 jonasw so 1130 CEST would workforme tomorrow
11:44:04 jonasw or 1330 CEST, I think I’d prefer the latter slightly
11:44:31 Ge0rG Or is it NIИ?
11:45:11 winfried Ge0rG: NIИ, that is a youth memory!
11:45:53 winfried jonasw: would friday 1330 CEST work for you or is that to late?
11:46:19 jonasw winfried, that would work
11:47:33 winfried jonasw: oops, meant to ask 12:30 on friday , but 13:30 would work for me too ;-)
11:48:23 jonasw winfried, 1330 works better than 1230 on friday, I think :)
11:50:18 winfried pep.: would tomorrow at 13:30 CEST AND friday at 13:30 fit you? Ge0rG may then attend tomorrow and friday for sure (correct Ge0rG ?)
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11:52:30 Ge0rG winfried: besides of the music, I also loved the Quake1 ammunition...
11:52:55 Ge0rG winfried: I can't promise it 100% yet, sorry.
11:53:21 winfried Ge0rG: sorry, I am from the wulfenstein era ;-)
11:53:33 Ge0rG winfried: "Mein Leben!"
11:53:46 jonasw my new portable digital audio player unfortunately cannot run doom anymore
11:53:55 jonasw not enough colors (1 bit color depth)
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11:54:36 Ge0rG https://op-co.de/vr3/files/doom.gif - I had doom running on my first Linux PDA.
11:54:52 jonasw that’s more than one bit ;-)
11:54:53 Ge0rG Last modified 2004-01-31 18:48. Wow, that's less than I thought it'd be.
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11:55:50 jonasw (granted, people *did* run doom on black/white LCD TI Voyage 200 calculators by tricking the display into displaying 2 bit grayscale or something)
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12:26:10 edhelas https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17063761
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12:28:19 winfried edhelas: there we go again...
12:28:55 Zash ZZzzz...
12:29:15 edhelas > That said, I think that main problem with Jabber is lack of a single entity pushing it. So it'll naturally lose fight against corporation with billion-dollar marketing budgets. With Matrix it might be better.
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12:29:17 edhelas :D
12:29:39 edhelas let's built a decentralized network, but handled by a single entity :-°
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12:45:01 daniel Wait the performance of the matrix server is so bad that had to disable presence?
12:45:08 Ge0rG Where can I find old versions of XEP-0045 (which define the GC1 behavior)
12:45:08 daniel Is this for real 😂
12:45:12 Wiktor maybe that's just me but I think they have a point, Arathorn is very active both on social media, and getting publicity (French government case), they operate like a corporation but Matrix is still federated (anyone can run the instance etc.)
12:45:24 goffi catching a bit conversation on standard@ after a while, for the record I'm strongly willing/needing a deletion mechanism for file sharing (I'm not using HTTP upload, but would be nice to make it generic enough so it can be used by HTTP upload). I was planing to use ad-hoc commands for that, and propose a XEP after testing on the field.
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12:48:17 Zash What came first, Jabber Inc. or the JSF?
12:48:17 Ge0rG https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/ only goes back to 1.16 :(
12:48:32 edhelas daniel you don't have performance problems anymore if you remove the heavy features
12:53:27 daniel I mean honestly I want to like matrix. And I actually hope they will succeed. They do some (non technical) things a lot better than the jabber community or the xsf
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12:53:56 daniel But from all I hear their stack is just polished shit just as xmpp is
12:53:57 Zash Marketing?
12:54:31 Zash It'd be nice if they had learned from XMPP, but from what I can see, they're following the exact same path.
12:54:55 daniel Yeah Marketing fundraising to employ full time people. Their way of extending the standard that you basically have to submit a PR for the spec, the implementation in the server and the client at the same time
12:56:00 Zash I'm sure Jabber was just as cool back when there was one client, one server, transports were all the rage and Jabber Inc. wasn't bought by Cisco yet.
12:56:45 Zash Just wait until there are more than one of independently developed servers and clients, it'll be exactly the same as XMPP.
12:57:41 daniel Rumor has that they are actively discouraging new server implementations
12:58:11 goffi Zash: that's one of the main issue I have with matrix (with their initial aggressivity with XMPP), it's all controlled by one company and a few people.
12:58:24 Zash Wasn't the excuse for the reference server being slow "but we're rewriting it in rust!!!"
12:58:56 Holger Go!
12:59:11 Zash Samesame
12:59:50 Holger Yeah their server story looks like a desaster.
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13:00:55 Zash But otoh, Jabber was started as an open source project, not as/by a company with a marketing budget.
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13:01:40 Zash > List of acquisitions by Cisco Systems (redirect from Jabber, Inc.) Heh
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13:02:13 edhelas 2019, Cisco is buying Matrix.inc
13:04:02 Zash What about going through the IETF and having a (Software|Standards) Foundation?
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13:09:48 daniel I mean in a way it's interesting to see how their approach pans out in the next 5-10 years
13:10:30 daniel If it's still a somewhat open standard in 10 years that you could federate with their approach might have been proven more effective
13:11:26 daniel I don't think there is anything inherently bad with a single company providing the reference implementation. As long as you always have the *option* of forking while still federation
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13:11:35 daniel *federating
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13:16:33 winfried I think the real problem is the difference between an open chat application like Matrix and an ecosystem like XMPP. Getting started is *much* harder in the ecosystem, but in the long run you want an ecosystem not just one implementation.
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13:17:36 Zash winfried: Doesn't that depend somewhat on who "you" are, and what their goals are?
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13:20:44 Andrew Nenakhov Matrix uniformity comes from it's relative obscurity. Once it will have multiple implementations, it'll be absolutely same as XMPP.
13:21:09 moparisthebest except without the specs/documentation ?
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13:21:37 Wiktor moparisthebest: you mean that https://matrix.org/docs/spec/ ?
13:21:42 Andrew Nenakhov And of course they are less obsessed with this crypto bullshit
13:22:00 daniel Are they?
13:22:02 moparisthebest didn't they develop OLM themselves?
13:22:04 winfried Zash: don't think so, when maintaining a system for a longer time then 5-7 years, you want an ecosystem, not just one application. Up to that point funding, acquiring technology/knowledge etc is easier when you use a monolithic code base. Once you are up to your first big overhaul, you get your regrets. No matter who you are and what your goal is....
13:22:31 pep. What about some projects applying for MOSS funding
13:22:44 pep. Xmpp projects
13:23:02 Zash winfried: I mean like, a company wanting ultimate control, do they want an ecosystem? Or like, Signal.
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13:26:36 winfried Zash: If I want ultimate control, I can still use the XMPP ecosystem as codebase. In matter of fact, I expect most XMPP deployments are exactly like that!
13:30:20 MattJ .
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13:30:26 MattJ Is it me or is the xmpp.org website slow?
13:31:19 jonasw I think it might be you
13:31:25 Zash 1.78s
13:31:26 jonasw loads fine here
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13:32:53 Zash MattJ: You've just gotten spoiled by how blazing fast the new prosody.im site is ;)
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13:35:36 Link Mauve About 1.8s here for prosody.im’s home page. :p
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13:36:39 MattJ Hmm, the link to compliance suites on https://xmpp.org/extensions/ is outdated
13:36:57 MattJ Links to XEP-0375 instead of XEP-0387
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13:37:35 jonasw MattJ, PRs welcome!
13:37:41 MattJ I'm looking for the page
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13:38:13 jonasw MattJ, https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/blob/master/content/pages/extensions.md
13:38:44 MattJ PR in
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13:41:09 Ge0rG So, I'm still looking for JEP-0045, version 0.4
13:41:19 Zash archive.org?
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13:41:41 Ge0rG And no, the git log doesn't go back *this* far.
13:41:52 Ge0rG Zash: do you know the URL?
13:42:29 Zash duno
13:42:33 Zash explore
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13:44:49 Ge0rG I'm not sure why but "jabber groupchat history" leads to completely unrelated results.
13:46:20 Zash https://web.archive.org/web/20021004130423/http://www.jabber.org:80/jeps/jep-0045.html
13:46:26 Zash That seems to be as far back as it goes
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13:46:54 Ge0rG Zash: you are awesome, thanks!
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13:47:15 Zash I'm sure I've seen the "Groupchat 1.0" protocol somewhere too, but where?
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13:49:18 Zash Seems /attic didn't exist back then
13:49:24 MattJ Ge0rG, have you seen https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2002-September/001485.html ?
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13:50:01 MattJ (not entirely sure what your current mission is, but seems like it's related...)
13:50:10 Neustradamus MattJ: There are tickets here: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues
13:50:46 Zash Neustradamus: Too slow: https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/436
13:50:59 Neustradamus -> for https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/398
13:51:36 Neustradamus SamWhited: ^^
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13:55:06 Neustradamus Any news for the XEP diff tool? https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/issues/412
13:55:49 Zash Ge0rG: Hmm https://web.archive.org/web/20000617033408/http://docs.jabber.org:80/
13:56:02 Ge0rG MattJ: thanks, that's another useful pointer
13:56:30 MattJ In particular this message from that thread: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2002-September/001499.html
13:56:43 MattJ which I'm sure you'll print, stick to the wall and throw darts at
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13:57:17 jonasw ohmygot mcversion="2"
13:57:19 Zash https://web.archive.org/web/20000823073740/http://docs.jabber.org:80/jpg/chgc.html Well what have we here
13:57:24 jonasw ohmygod mcversion="2"
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13:58:04 MattJ !praise Zash
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13:58:15 Neustradamus I see that the redirection of docs.jabber.org is missing
14:01:37 Zash https://web.archive.org/web/20000919185743/http://docs.jabber.org:80/jpg/x273.html examples!
14:01:42 Zash The real spec!
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14:06:27 edhelas so simple
14:07:27 Zash Ge0rG: Looks like the origin of the direct invite namespace https://web.archive.org/web/20020214222508/http://docs.jabber.org:80/draft-proto/html/conferencing.html
14:09:03 jonasw <message type="groupchat" from="act3@gc.denmark"> <body>Hamlet has arrived.</body> </message>
14:09:04 jonasw interesting
14:09:10 jonasw a precedent for messages from the bare MUC JID :)
14:09:16 Ge0rG jonasw: yeah.
14:09:39 Zash <iq type='get' to='roomname@server'> <enter xmlns='jabber:iq:conference'/> </iq>
14:09:56 edhelas jonasw that would be nice indeed, introducing each participant by all his familly name, relations and positions
14:10:33 jonasw > get > enter
14:11:33 MattJ jonasw, that's why most clients still support those messages (and it's handy)
14:12:18 jonasw "still"
14:12:24 MattJ Heh
14:12:25 jonasw for new clients it isn’t that obvious ;-)
14:12:34 jonasw *hint hint*
14:13:40 Kev M-Link certainly sends messages from the room's bare JID.
14:13:48 Ge0rG Messages from a MUC bare JID are often used for CAPTCHAs and other entrance impediments.
14:13:56 Kev So-called "System messages". I hadn't realised those were folklore at this point.
14:14:30 Zash Ge0rG: https://web.archive.org/web/20020207105531/http://www.pipetree.com:80/jabber/gc.html
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14:16:52 Zash How many groupchat protocols are there even?
14:17:08 Zash 3 or 4 by 2002?
14:17:43 Kev I think it was three wasn't it? gc, iq:gc and MUC.
14:17:48 Kev But maybe I missed one.
14:18:24 Zash "conferencing"?
14:18:35 Zash Or is that what became MUC?
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14:21:47 Ge0rG Zash, MattJ: thanks very much for your archeological support. Its result should hit standards@ any minute now.
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14:23:35 jonasw oha
14:23:58 jonasw this will help skip the time waiting for the raspberry pi to update
14:24:07 jonasw > 33.7 kB/s 9min 42s
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14:24:12 Ge0rG I can't see it yet.
14:24:22 jonasw me neither
14:24:26 jonasw but looking forward to it
14:25:07 Ge0rG May 14 16:21:24 bender postfix/smtp[9754]: EC5C814540E1: to=<standards@xmpp.org>, relay=atlas.jabber.org[208.68.163.215]:25, delay=3.1, delays=0.28/0.04/2.3/0.43, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as C40468FC)
14:25:21 Ge0rG ,oO( Atlas Shrugged )
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14:25:31 Zash shrug
14:26:05 Zash https://web.archive.org/web/20020602221836/http://docs.jabber.org:80/draft-proto/html/sxpm.html Hah, neat
14:26:50 jonasw Ge0rG, maybe it’s running an apt update on a raspberry pi and waits for the result before forwarding to introduce some random mixing delay
14:27:30 Ge0rG jonasw: that would be some interesting interdependency.
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14:40:45 Link Mauve “16:09:10 jonasw> a precedent for messages from the bare MUC JID :)”, mu-conference used to do that if some entity joined with a GC1.0 join.
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15:04:29 Link Mauve Ge0rG, ooh, the line above the last participant was that null participant, not a ncurses bug!
15:04:36 Link Mauve Thanks for making me notice that.
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15:09:09 pep. Too many bugs..
15:09:53 Zash 99 bugs in the code, take one down, patch it around, 103 bugs in the code
15:10:09 pep. Zash: how is potato farming going
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15:10:45 daniel Link Mauve: haven't you been at the meeting where we discussed doing the avater thing?
15:11:02 pep. Congress?
15:11:16 pep. At*
15:11:30 daniel Yes
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15:12:35 Zash pep.:
15:13:03 daniel Zash:
15:15:04 pep. daniel:
15:16:11 Link Mauve daniel, I wasn’t expecting that to break.
15:16:41 Link Mauve I was wrong.
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16:48:06 Ge0rG Nasal Demons!
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17:03:20 Alex memberbot is online for our Q2-2018 voting
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19:06:09 Ge0rG So, I want to use XMPP for my IoT. Who is the right person to give implementation advice?
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19:16:44 jonasw depends on what IoT means
19:16:54 jonasw I’m doing IoT-ish things with XMPP
19:17:12 Zash Means whatever you want it to mean
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19:34:32 Ge0rG I want to control multiple LED lighting controllers, get them automatically discovered by OpenHab, and just have to give them names.
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21:19:02 MattJ Ge0rG, the LED lighting controllers... are based on what?
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21:19:59 MattJ Mine hang off an Arduino, and you won't be XMPP'ing from those (unless you use one of the fancier models with Linux on)
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21:39:46 Ge0rG MattJ: esp8266
21:40:31 MattJ No sensible XMPPing on that either, although it runs Lua and I considered some very hacked port of a minimal subset of Prosody...
21:41:47 MattJ Once you factor into account that JIDs can be multiple KBs, there's no chance of a compliant implementation
21:42:37 Zash Prosody already doesn't normally work with that.
21:43:43 MattJ True :)
21:44:19 Zash Depending on who has the 3KB JID
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21:44:52 MattJ Ge0rG, in my case most things happen over MQTT, and I bridge to that from XMPP/whatever needs to. It's the simplest option
21:45:04 Ge0rG MattJ: I'm not going to use the Lua runtime, and I don't need 3KB JIDs on my LAN
21:45:44 MattJ Then you can probably manage some form of XMPP, if you're willing to cut corners
21:46:11 Link Mauve https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#example-216 shouldn’t this be in a pubsub#owner rather than in a pubsub namespace?
21:46:17 MattJ I mean, jonasw should be able to give you some tips for XMPP in constrained environments :)
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