XSF Discussion - 2018-05-15

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  128. jonasw MattJ, Ge0rG, to be fair, the "worst" I did XMPP-wise was on that plastic router with 64 MiB of RAM. I used libstrophe/libcouplet there (despite a lua runtime available; I didn’t want to get into building libexpat for that system; when I was going to crosscompile, I could also simply crosscompile my C application).
  129. jonasw the SASL handshake still took considerable time on that system :)
  130. jonasw (one really wants PLAIN on really constrained systems)
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  183. Ge0rG I'm not sure I can even fit TLS into the ESP
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  187. ibikk MattJ, GeOrg: regarding home automation and mqtt: once I was fed up with openhab I hacked something which connects mqtt, some scripts and rules and a xmpp "command line interface". Maybe someone is interested? I'd have to document and upload it...
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  193. Ge0rG ibikk: that's great but I want an Android app, so OpenHab is rather practical for that.
  194. Ge0rG What I hate about it is that it consumes gigabytes of RAM and that there is no way to abstract multiple identical multi-item controllers as entities
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  199. ibikk the openhab app was OK, but I didn't want to expose openhab to the internet or use an VPN, therefore I did this xmpp command line, which in some aspects is far more powerful than openhab. also 'scripts' is misleading. it is a python app and provides scripts (have to be explicitly called by user) and (automatic) rules/controllers.
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  201. ibikk in my home network there also is a browser interface.
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  204. Ge0rG There is a subcommunity of people claiming that XMPP is awesome for IoT. I want to see that in practice.
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  221. ibikk I do not. mqtt seems fine.
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  225. Ge0rG ibikk: MQTT is okay for a small fleet of devices, but I want to have something where a device can bundle its API spec in a machine-readable way, like "I'm an RGBW controller and I support one HSV channel and one brightness channel and a global power switch"
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  228. jonasw Ge0rG, there is a bearssl implementation.
  229. Ge0rG is there also a bearxmpp?
  230. Ge0rG and a bearxmppiot?
  231. jonasw I think hooking up libcouplet with that shouldn’t be too hard.
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  234. Ge0rG jonasw: and then we are still lacking all of the IoT infrastructure that purportedly puts XMPP above MQTT for IoT.
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  237. jonasw maybe
  238. Ge0rG jonasw: feel free to prove me wrong.
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  240. Ge0rG Right now I'm convinced that XMPP-IoT is overhyped to a degree that's actually harmful for IoT over XMPP
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  243. jonasw I haven’t followed the work actual IoT people do
  244. jonasw I just do my own stuff with some pubsub and IQs
  245. jonasw that was easy enough to do with libcouplet and sleek and aioxmpp
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  252. ibikk Ge0rG: I think people have proposed how to do something like this using mqtt? It does not fit my needs however. My devices don't even talk mqtt themselves.
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  276. Ge0rG winfried: what was the scheduled appointment time again?
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  278. jonasw Ge0rG, 1230 CEST
  279. Ge0rG Alright, thanks.
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  282. MattJ Ge0rG, have you looked at Home Assistant? OpenHAB was a bit too heavy for me
  283. Ge0rG MattJ: that looks very interesting, thanks
  284. Ge0rG And it's not running node.js, despite being hosted on .io
  285. MattJ Indeed
  286. Ge0rG "Learn how Hass.io can turn your Raspberry Pi into the ultimate home automation hub" - Hass is the German word for "hate". So appropriate.
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  288. MattJ They have an MQTT mode where the device posts its configuration
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  291. MattJ Ge0rG, https://www.home-assistant.io/docs/mqtt/discovery/
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  294. Ge0rG <node_id> (Optional): ID of the node providing the topic. <object_id>: The ID of the device. This is only to allow for separate topics for each device and is not used for the entity_id. node_id, object_id, entity_id... This looks like Designed by the XSF™
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  297. MattJ :)
  298. Ge0rG I'm not sure why they need multiple topics for a single switch (set and state), if they could just have one that is read and written to and retained.
  299. Ge0rG and embedding the full path of that into the config kind of defeats the purpose
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  302. MattJ The API has to handle many different kinds of devices, many APIs separate command and state, because in reality they are different
  303. Ge0rG right. Devices that react to "ON" and then set the HSV state to "0,0,100" or somesuch.
  304. Ge0rG It's awesome how fast you end up with a huge complexity overhead.
  305. MattJ Indeed
  306. jonasw also, sometimes setting might not work
  307. jonasw for example if the device is offline
  308. jonasw and you’d normally want to be able to detect that
  309. jonasw (or if it is slow or something)
  310. MattJ Yeah, the state essentially doubles as an ack for any command
  311. jonasw it’s common in commanding systems actually
  312. MattJ Also in Home Assistant it's generally optional anyway, if it's absent then the UI just assumes the state is whatever was requested, instantly (which obviously has downsides)
  313. Ge0rG Right.
  314. Ge0rG I see where this is going.
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  318. MattJ FWIW I consider XMPP suitable for higher-level IoT stuff, but not for device<->controller comms, unless the devices are powerful enough
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  320. Ge0rG MattJ: my devices are sufficiently powerful.
  321. MattJ I consider most of the IoT XEPs to be over-engineered though
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  324. MattJ Then XEP-0060 them and enjoy
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  326. Ge0rG the hass discovery looks like a nice trade-off between complexity and comfort.
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  337. Ge0rG The Converse.js on http://www.xmpp-iot.org is great. You have to click it away after Every. Freaking. Click.
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  364. pep. When was the last gdpr meeting again, the one with all of us
  365. pep. 0504?
  366. Ge0rG pep.: I could tell you, but I need to gain consent from all attendees first.
  367. pep. yeah that sounds about right
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  369. pep. Ge0rG, shut up :p
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  374. Ge0rG pep.: do you want to make use of your right to Erasure?
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  379. pep. let me gdpr the hell out of you. *goes and create a yax.im account*
  380. Ge0rG Damn. You win this round.
  381. Ge0rG goes looking for yax.im's power plug
  382. pep. hmm no there was nothing on 0504
  383. pep. last one with all of us seems to be 0430
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  385. pep. Or my logs are lying to me
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  396. pep. Ok I'm sending something for the minutes, 11 (& 12 that was cancelled)
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  401. pep. Ge0rG, jonasw, winfried, meeting in ~10min
  402. winfried (Y)
  403. Ge0rG I'm on the run right now, can't promise anything
  404. pep. k
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  409. pep. !
  410. winfried t -2 ;-)
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  412. jonasw 🙋‍
  413. Ge0rG Okay, so I'm in the expected lunch break, but I'm alone so I can focus on the GDPR.
  414. winfried great
  415. winfried lets recapp
  416. pep. There's a question (quotes) I added in the minutes, that I think we didn't really focus on
  417. pep. I don't know if we can answer it by ourselves though
  418. winfried pep.: can you repeat the question(s) here?
  419. pep. Do we have to find all the data scattered across all different services, re export/deletion
  420. pep. "all different services", meaning not ours
  421. Ge0rG We'd have to monitor all the services a user uses and how
  422. winfried pep.: from a legal perspective not: the data is transferred and not 'our' responsibility anymore
  423. pep. Ge0rG, I'm not saying it'd be easy or even fun, just asking from a legal standpoint
  424. pep. winfried, k
  425. winfried still thinking it would be fun ;-)
  426. pep. Ok, so what's left
  427. Ge0rG winfried: that's too easy for an answer. If we are the controller, we are probably still responsible, aren't we?
  428. Ge0rG What if Facebook "transfers" the data from Facebook EU Inc. to Facebook USA?
  429. winfried Ge0rG: IF we are controller yes, but there is no controller - processor situation but a transfer between two controllers
  430. winfried Ge0rG: FB EU -> FB US is transfer between two controllers, in the FB case that is not covered by 6.1b, so it has to be 6.1a
  431. Ge0rG winfried: so we are controllers, but the other servers are controllers too?
  432. winfried Ge0rG: yes... that was one of the first premises we started with ;-)
  433. Ge0rG winfried: I've always seen that as "controllers of our users' friends' data"
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  435. Ge0rG Which is not the same thing
  436. winfried what difference do you see (I am still digesting that one)
  437. pep. Ge0rG, that would make the s2s server a processor, but then how do you say you're not liable for what the contact does with MAM
  438. jonasw I think with Ge0rGs interpretation we can argue that after the transfer the data is at the recipients control and the handling of the data is owned by the recipent, thus the recipient is responsible for all things GDPR and whether the senders privacy preferences are matched is a matter of trust between recipient and sender.
  439. Ge0rG winfried: remote PubSub is data that a user's server transmits to a different server (controller?) on behalf of the user. Now does the remote server need to obtain consent from the user?
  440. Ge0rG I'm explicitly not talking about data sent to other users.
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  442. winfried Ge0rG: no, that is still 6.1b, so no consent. But the remote server, when it falls under the jurisdiction of the GDPR, needs to publish its privacy policy
  443. Ge0rG winfried: and if it's in a third country?
  444. pep. then it's 49.1b, no consent required
  445. winfried pep.: thanks, you got the article number before me ;-)
  446. pep. Ah hmm, if that's not a controller that's different?
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  448. pep. Ah nvm
  449. Ge0rG winfried: great. Can we have that in the wiki, then?
  450. winfried yes pep. plz remind me ;-)
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  452. pep. So wait, that means.. transfer between controllers? Or what Ge0rG said?
  453. Ge0rG pep.: it is transfer between controllers
  454. Ge0rG And what I said
  455. pep. > Ge0rG> winfried: I've always seen that as "controllers of our users' friends' data"
  456. Ge0rG What did I say? And when?
  457. Ge0rG pep.: two different use cases. Messages sent to other users vs things we store on other servers.
  458. winfried Ge0rG: yes, good to distinguish between them
  459. Ge0rG pep.: if I send you a message, you become the owner on your server. If I publish a post on movim, I stay the owner
  460. pep. Ok, so what winfried said doesn'T apply to MAM?
  461. Ge0rG pep.: what kind of MAM?
  462. pep. 1:1
  463. winfried pep.: if it is my server archiving your messages in the conversation I had with you, then that MAM is my responsibility
  464. Ge0rG pep.: and what did winfried say?
  465. pep. winfried, yes that's what I thought until now, but you're all confusing me with words :p
  466. winfried I propose I try to write it down in clear wording in the Wiki, plz correct if that is still confusing/incorrect. agreed?
  467. pep. Ge0rG, so "Ge0rG> winfried: I've always seen that as "controllers of our users' friends' data"" < this is wrong?
  468. pep. Well..
  469. Ge0rG winfried: s/propose/volunteer/, right?
  470. pep. It's "not the interpretation we choose to think will be applied"
  471. winfried Ge0rG: yes
  472. Ge0rG pep. [12:57]: > Ge0rG, so "Ge0rG> winfried: I've always seen that as "controllers of our users' friends' data"" < this is wrong? This is true as well, for the remote copy of the message I sent to my friend
  473. winfried pep.: correct, but we can only discuss/check an interpretation if it is worded complete and clear
  474. Ge0rG We need to choose an interpretation anyway, and then hope we don't have to defend it in court
  475. Ge0rG It's better to have an interpretation that we can reasonably agree on than not to have any
  476. pep. sure
  477. winfried and there is an interesting subtle issue here: when becomes my message the responsibility of the receiving person?
  478. pep. Once it gets over s2s?
  479. winfried I will try to word as precise as I can so we can decide ...
  480. Ge0rG winfried: when the receiving person opted to use offline storage / MAM and the message arrives there?
  481. winfried :-D I see different opinions here
  482. winfried I tend to the pov of Ge0rG
  483. winfried as long as it is on the receivers server and not transferred to the receiver, the message is nobodies responsibility if we take s2s as border
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  485. winfried but let me think about that one a bid and let me word it in the wiki
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  487. pep. k
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  490. Ge0rG winfried: if the message is discarded, it doesn't matter. If it is stored, the recipient is the most logical person
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  492. winfried Ge0rG: correct
  493. pep. I'd like to see setups where there is no offline storage / MAM at all
  494. winfried Have you seen the pdf I posted to the members list? Is that the way to go for the consequences for server operators? (Q1.2)
  495. winfried (oops it was odg)
  496. winfried (silence)
  497. pep. yes, digesting all this
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  499. jonasw still sick :(
  500. jonasw I’m half-following
  501. winfried jonasw: :-( hope you get better soon!
  502. jonasw thanks
  503. Ge0rG I didn't see a PDF, but there was an .odg
  504. winfried :-D
  505. pep. The table?
  506. pep. So today is clarification day
  507. pep. How are we regarding things that can be sent to standards@ already
  508. winfried GDPR scheme.odg attached to a reply to minutes 10
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  514. pep. hmm, should we plan for next, doesn't seem to be really active today
  515. winfried Waiting for reactions... ;-)
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  517. Ge0rG winfried: waiting for the mail server? Forget it.
  518. jonasw why waiting for the email server?
  519. pep. winfried, you're talking about https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR/Table ?
  520. Ge0rG winfried> GDPR scheme.odg attached to a reply to minutes 10
  521. jonasw Ge0rG, it’s already been sent last week
  522. jonasw https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/bOy6D9sQg3BxiP0GYdDkXcUBcdfc3o2_Pi4PW-5zUdQ.png
  523. jonasw that’s a screen shot of it
  524. Ge0rG oh, I misread that as "10 minutes ago" and was looking for new replies.
  525. jonasw timestamp of the mail is 2018-05-08 11:56Z
  526. pep. oh
  527. Ge0rG yeah, had that open already.
  528. winfried jonasw: that is the first page
  529. jonasw there are more pages?
  530. jonasw ugh
  531. pep. winfried, "on a large scale", is this even important?
  532. jonasw I don’t know that tool
  533. Ge0rG Oh, there is a second page!
  534. jonasw I assumed when I scroll down and reach the end of a page there aren’t more pages :D
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  536. winfried jonasw: yeah bad UI
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  538. winfried pep.: not for the XSF context, but it helps asses server operators if they should to anything
  539. pep. hmm
  540. pep. I guess I should start working on that XEP quick
  541. pep. 10days to write it and get it council approved(tm)!
  542. winfried :-D
  543. pep. And just after that, deployed everywhere!
  544. jonasw noooot gonna happen
  545. jonasw unless you manage to submit it today :)
  546. pep. hmm
  547. pep. nope
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  549. winfried of you don't have your act together on the 25th in the Netherlands, you may get a warning and some more months to correct it :-P
  550. pep. cool
  551. pep. I guess they'll have to do that for a lot more people
  552. winfried any amendments to the scheme?
  553. Ge0rG in Austria you get a warning. Full stop.
  554. pep. winfried, template looks ok to me. Maybe alongside MAM specify offline storage
  555. mimi89999 has left
  556. pep. How do you even set offline storage available but not active by default
  557. Ge0rG winfried: step 5 might be "require consent for processing beyond the XSF template"
  558. winfried good points!
  559. winfried maybe split step 5 in two options: when using the XSF template (or equivalent) or when doing processing beyond that.
  560. pep. Zash, MattJ, is there a way to have offline storage stanby and do nothing atm?
  561. MattJ Hmm?
  562. pep. Have offline storage opt-in
  563. winfried Next meeting: friday 13:30 CEST
  564. pep. winfried, ok
  565. MattJ pep., not currently possible to configure per-user, if that's what you mean
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  567. pep. ok, I guess that also need changing in the protocol
  568. MattJ Totally possible, just not implemented
  569. pep. ah ok
  570. MattJ Well, M-Link uses ad-hoc commands for that
  571. MattJ Though a number of clients don't support them
  572. pep. Yeah so it's not specified
  573. ibikk has joined
  574. pep. -xep offline
  575. pep. Bunneh! where are you when I need you
  576. MattJ I always wanted a "user account configuration" XEP
  577. efrit has joined
  578. pep. There is IBR, in some ways
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  580. Ge0rG With data forms! And hookers!
  581. winfried pep.: do you summarize minutes again?
  582. pep. winfried, I'll try to do that yes :x
  583. winfried pep.: thanks!
  584. winfried then there is one thing left for me:
  585. winfried *bangs* the gavel
  586. winfried thanks once again guys!
  587. pep. Ge0rG, and jonasw ok with the date?
  588. jonasw thanks folks
  589. Ge0rG pep.: hope so
  590. jonasw pep., yes, still OK
  591. pep. k
  592. pep. Updated the date on the wiki
  593. winfried pep.: thanks!
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  620. edhelas winfried I'm telling it you here, I don't have OMEMO on my device, so please desactivate it with my JID
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  622. winfried Done, thank Daniel :-P
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  626. edhelas because I'm getting more and more like that I'm thinking of an automatic reply
  627. Holger edhelas: I could sell you <https://github.com/processone/ejabberd-contrib/tree/master/mod_deny_omemo> ...
  628. edhelas no it's more a client side feature
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  821. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: was there an update to hacx to put it onto the agenda again? Cc jonasw
  822. moparisthebest nope will get it out tonight if we don't have another unexpected area-wide power outage :)
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  824. jonasw Ge0rG, not that I knew
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