XSF Discussion - 2018-05-18

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  113. lovetox

    we have a list in gajim source with servers

  114. lovetox

    its says that everyone that wants to be added should follow the instructions

  115. lovetox

    on http://xmpp.org/services/register.shtml

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  117. lovetox

    this thing seems not to exist anymore, was there a list of servers somewhere on xmpp.org where people could add their server?

  118. lovetox

    if yes, where is it now

  119. jonasw

    I think that has moved to xmpp.net

  120. lovetox

    oh lol right on the front page

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  124. lovetox

    pitty its not recorded if the server support IBR or not

  125. jonasw


  126. jonasw

    you might wanna filter for features anyways

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  133. Ge0rG

    Is https://xmpp.net/register.php still the right method?

  134. jonasw

    except that nobody maintains the list

  135. jonasw

    I don’t have the permissions, and I think it’s possible that nobody knows how

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  142. Ge0rG

    stpeter does?

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  251. jonasw

    lovetox, 06:15:19 jonasw> fugata, didn‘t you start to compile a list of IBR-supporting servers with good XEP support? 08:11:04 fugata> I did 08:12:19 fugata> jonasw: I also created uptime accounts for them and sent the credentials to Daniel; they're all on status.conversations.im now IIRC 08:21:22 fugata> jonasw: http://paste.debian.net/1025196/

  252. daniel

    The compliance tester will also start checking for ibr but with the recommendation to just use ibr oob redirection

  253. Zash

    Is that a recommendation?

  254. daniel

    Zash: IMHO yes. Because it's easier to to spam protection

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  256. Zash

    But at what cost!

  257. Zash

    Worse UX and you make Ge0rG sad.

  258. daniel

    The thing is with a 'powerful tool' you can't just test for ibr. That will force ops to blindly enable ibr and open the gates for spam. So the compliance tester will probably recommend oob. But if you want to diverge from that that's fine as well

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  261. jonasw

    daniel, maybe it’s better to then just not test for IBR

  262. jonasw

    or make the data only available on request, but not on the overview

  263. daniel

    jonasw: but it's also important to have that information so people like lovetox can compile their list

  264. jonasw

    like a JSON file

  265. jonasw

    but not in the HTML table

  266. jonasw

    to prevent "need to have it all green!!!" people from blindly enabling IBR

  267. Zash


  268. Zash

    So much that.

  269. jonasw

    a JSON file would also be useful to automatically fetch on client installation/startup *cough*

  270. daniel

    Yeah that's why I'm not blindly enabling the test. Maybe we can just exclude it from the ranking or something

  271. jonasw

    I’d prefer excluding it from the table and having a hidden-ish JSON file with that data included.

  272. daniel

    And no a json file is probably not a good idea. Because people who compile lists should take other factors into account as well

  273. lovetox

    json would be nice

  274. lovetox

    i would not fetch it, but would pull it into the source from time to time

  275. daniel

    Like uptime as provided by the status thing and do they have a privecy statement

  276. jonasw

    ideally, we can soon-ish test for privacy statements automatedly (ping pep.)

  277. daniel

    Or 'is it run on a raspie in somebody's basement'

  278. pep.


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  280. lovetox

    hm maybe we could pull it automatically but only if the user starts account wizard

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  282. pep.

    I'd rather not pull it automatically, but update the client every so often

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  285. daniel

    pep.: what do you test for?

  286. daniel

    For the privacy statement

  287. pep.

    I assume jonasw is talking about EULA

  288. jonasw

    pep., yes, I am

  289. jonasw

    daniel, a server would expose a stream feature and a pre-auth way to query key parts of the privacy statement as well as an URL to the full text

  290. jonasw

    so that clients can show that in-band when registering

  291. jonasw

    pep., BTW, what is blocking the work on the XEP?

  292. jonasw

    anything I can help with?

  293. pep.

    Time, and knowledge

  294. jonasw

    what knowledge?

  295. pep.


  296. pep.

    Xmpp in general, what to use and how, why

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  298. jonasw

    okay, so, maybe we can split the work here

  299. jonasw

    you could write up what the thing should do, and I fill in the protocol gaps

  300. pep.


  301. jonasw

    alternatively, I can advise you on how the protocol could look, whatever works for you

  302. pep.

    I'll try to come up with a list of requirements

  303. jonasw

    that’d be great

  304. jonasw

    I’d love it if we could make it til next council meeting

  305. jonasw

    if we manage to get the text ready by monday, I could give a draft impl a shot in prosody

  306. jonasw

    and aioxmpp

  307. jonasw

    (since aioxmpp can’t do pre-auth IQs yet, that’ll be the more tricky part :))

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  340. Ge0rG

    For clients that don't support IBR data-forms / email, we obviously need a multi-state enum for what kind of IBR is supported!

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  359. jonasw

    what do you folks (especially Ge0rG) think of sending presence type="unavailable" or "error" when receiving groupchat messages from MUCs a client doesn’t know it is joined to?

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  363. Yagiza


  364. Ge0rG

    jonasw: what's wrong with message/error?

  365. jonasw

    Ge0rG, does that kick one from a MUC reliably?

  366. Yagiza

    Are there clients, with XEP-0371( https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0371.html ) implemented?

  367. jonasw

    Ge0rG, also, if we lost sync with the server, we *probably* were joined formerly, so leaving with an (potentially) confusing error shows intent more clearly...?

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  374. Ge0rG

    jonasw: I'm sure there are many painful corner cases we've not thought about ye

  375. Ge0rG


  376. jonasw

    okay, so just return a message error?

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  378. Ge0rG

    jonasw: we are talking about to=full, not to=bare, right?

  379. jonasw


  380. jonasw

    which to?

  381. jonasw

    that of the inbound groupchat message?

  382. Ge0rG


  383. jonasw

    sure, full jid

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  385. Ge0rG

    because there is spam with type=groupchat to=bare

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  387. Ge0rG

    and I don't want to leak presence to spammers

  388. Ge0rG

    jonasw: so when does a client know it's not joined to a MUC but still receives groupchat messages from there?

  389. Ge0rG

    right after a reconnect?

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  391. jonasw

    Ge0rG, I’d also listen for <x/> ...

  392. jonasw

    but good point

  393. jonasw

    it might leak presence :(

  394. jonasw

    Ge0rG, I was thinking of a "leave the MUC operation" getting lost in an s2s hiccup

  395. Ge0rG

    jonasw: how often do you leave MUCs?

  396. jonasw

    does that matter?

  397. Ge0rG

    jonasw: imagine the race condition between leaving a MUC and receiving messages, causing to leave the MUC again

  398. jonasw


  399. jonasw

    that race is a good point

  400. jonasw


  401. Ge0rG

    jonasw: and yes, it does matter.

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  403. jonasw

    don’t I receive a presence ACKing the leave?

  404. Ge0rG

    jonasw: how does that change anything?

  405. Ge0rG

    jonasw: are you going to put a timeout handler on the leave-presence?

  406. Ge0rG

    OMG, leaving the MUC timed out! I need to ... ?

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  408. Ge0rG

    ... </stream:stream>

  409. jonasw


  410. jonasw


  411. jonasw

    so closing that as wontfix

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  431. Link Mauve

    Btw, at https://xmpp.org/getting-started/ it might be useful to add a few notes about each server, just it being “popular” doesn’t mean people should use it blindly.

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  434. Link Mauve

    A few days ago someone started using xmpp.jp because it was the first one in this list, only to end up with 500ms of lag whenever they typed something in a MUC hosted in Europe.

  435. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: blasphemy!

  436. pep.

    Link Mauve: 230 here :p

  437. Link Mauve

    The only solution I could give them was to create an account elsewhere, with the very nice porting ability we all know…

  438. Ge0rG

    Our Holy Neutrality Rules forbid any kind of Provider Bias.

  439. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, ping goes two ways. :p

  440. daniel

    Why is the delay important?

  441. Ge0rG

    This is why we recommend Pidgin.

  442. Ge0rG

    daniel: in MUCs it is.

  443. Zash

    Who picked that list?

  444. Ge0rG

    I'm sure it's approved by Board.

  445. Link Mauve

    Actually it was even him (France) → xmpp.jp (Japan) → MUC (France) → xmpp.jp (Japan) → him (France).

  446. daniel

    Ge0rG: I got that we are talking about muc. But why is delay relevant?

  447. Link Mauve

    daniel, some clients don’t display messages instantly.

  448. Ge0rG

    daniel: because you see the delay between writing your message and its delivery

  449. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: some clients suck.

  450. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, indeed.

  451. pep.

    daniel: in this case I would argue it's not the delay. xmpp.jp is not really well know for its admin capabilities either (spam, not replying yo querier etc.)

  452. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, I’d even say most*. :p

  453. pep.

    Link Mauve: ^

  454. pep.


  455. daniel

    I mean on mobile you can easily have those kinds of delays as well

  456. Link Mauve

    pep., they replied once after I made the effort of writing in Japanese (and you helped me)!

  457. daniel

    Never bothered me

  458. Ge0rG

    daniel: "Never bothered me" is not a very good way to handle user problems.

  459. Zash

    "Wontfix: Works for me"

  460. Ge0rG is in full rant mode today.

  461. daniel

    Why is it a problem that other people read your messages 500ms after you typed them?

  462. Zash

    Patch (cables) welcome

  463. Link Mauve

    daniel, anyway, that was only an option, being known for hosting and protecting spammers, having no real good policy privacy, being hosted in a country downright hostile to its citizens, etc. could be other reasons for not using a server.

  464. Zash

    daniel: It gets weird if you see your own messages that long after you sent them

  465. daniel

    Zash: that I can get on board with. Very weird indeed

  466. daniel

    But fix your client

  467. Ge0rG

    I'm used to this latency from my own travel. And it sucks.

  468. Ge0rG

    daniel: fixing the client slightly reduces the weirdness.

  469. Ge0rG

    daniel: imagine mod_pastebin kicking in.

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  471. Zash

    Having something to indicate 'in flight' is probably fine, then updating it with whatever the MUC sends back

  472. Zash

    And adding the little green tick

  473. Ge0rG

    $ git blame ./content/pages/getting-started/_index.md|grep Pidgin 195fadcc content/pages/uses/getting-started.md (Guus der Kinderen 2017-01-17 12:36:13 +0100 23) * [Pidgin](http://pidgin.im/) (OS X, Windows & Linux)

  474. Ge0rG

    there it is.

  475. Link Mauve

    Or imagine participating in a fast-paced discussion and always getting your messages reordered.

  476. Zash

    Guus! What do you have to say for yourself?

  477. daniel

    Oh I should probably install mod_pastebin and find a nice solution for that

  478. Ge0rG

    Zash: that's how yaxim does it.

  479. daniel

    But that's probably only a couple of weird servers using that

  480. Ge0rG

    Zash: except for the well documented PITA of matching MUC reflections.

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  482. Guus


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  484. Guus

    (I have no clue what that is, by the way)

  485. Ge0rG

    Guus: Pidgin in https://xmpp.org/getting-started/

  486. Ge0rG

    Guus: it's all your fault!

  487. Link Mauve

    daniel, a possible other use is biboumi splitting messages if they would lead to IRC messages bigger than 512 bytes.

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  489. Guus

    nono, my evil twin's fault, as I already explained.

  490. Zash

    Or containing newlines

  491. Ge0rG

    Link Mauve: is biboumi honoring the message ID in that case already?

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  493. daniel

    i really wish biboumi would hide the splitting from the user

  494. Link Mauve

    Ge0rG, I don’t remember the resolution of that issue.

  495. Ge0rG

    Guus: it's your fault to allowing your evil twin access to your githubs

  496. Ge0rG

    daniel: please no.

  497. Guus

    He's not allowed, but does so anyway! that's the 'evil' in 'evil twin'.

  498. Zash

    Guus: From my perspective, the JID..i... is evil..

  499. Ge0rG

    daniel: next thing would be to join incoming messages from the same sender?

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  501. daniel

    is there any indication in irc that a message was split?

  502. Link Mauve

    daniel, exposing a different view from the rest of the participants, and then wondering why they reacted some way (generally kicking you) to your huge paste or multi-lines message, is not really better.

  503. Ge0rG

    daniel: no. it's just truncated

  504. Link Mauve

    daniel, no, IRC doesn’t split messages, the client (here biboumi) is expected to.

  505. Guus

    Ge0rG, feel free to fix 🙂

  506. Zash

    Nice UX. Bridges. Pick one.

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  508. Ge0rG

    Guus: Board has approved Pidgin. I'm out of that game now.

  509. Link Mauve

    Zash, exactly.

  510. Guus

    approve != need to be on getting started page

  511. Ge0rG

    If you want to see the world (of XMPP) burn, you are free to do so.

  512. Guus

    I explicitly created that page with the intent that it would be made better by others.

  513. daniel

    anyway i usually don't buy the 'but it doesn't work on my transports' argument

  514. daniel

    transports suck. the end

  515. daniel

    maybe the irc transport should expose the limit and have the xmpp client split it

  516. Ge0rG


  517. Zash

    There are errors for that, no?

  518. Zash

    MTU discovery!

  519. Ge0rG

    I hope you are cynical now.

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  526. daniel

    yeah i'm not really sure how to handle the irc situation besides dumbing xmpp down to the irc levels

  527. Zash

    daniel: that's basically what you need to do

  528. Zash

    otherwise the differences are going to hurt you

  529. daniel

    in which case you don't need xmpp in the first place but just use irc

  530. Ge0rG

    What's wrong with how it is now?

  531. Ge0rG

    Why are you trying to fix an imaginary problem?

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  533. Zash

    And why write for OS/2 when you can write for Windows and it works on both!

  534. Zash

    Transports are tricky

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  554. pep.

    gdpr meeting in 10

  555. jonasw


  556. Ge0rG

    I'm available until 1400 CEST

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  560. winfried


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  564. winfried

    GDPR meeting

  565. pep.


  566. pep.


  567. winfried bangs a gavel

  568. jonasw


  569. winfried

    I updated the wiki, though not to the extend I wish to.

  570. winfried

    most important addition, for everybody to take a look at: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR#Roles_and_responsibilities

  571. pep.


  572. jonasw reads

  573. SaltyBones has left

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  575. winfried

    I also checked in my bible the point I have been making about export only necessarily under 6.1a, not under 6.1b: I was incorrect, 6.1b is also included, so we have to provide an export facility

  576. jonasw

    if technically feasible, right?(

  577. pep.

    winfried, "Data Processor: can be several, e.g. the internet hoster of the XMPP server operator", not sure I get this

  578. pep.


  579. pep.

    I would have thought, for c2s, data processor is the controller, and for s2s, depends

  580. pep.

    Not sure what the ISP has to do here

  581. winfried

    Well, I host an XMPP server at my provider

  582. marmistrz has left

  583. winfried

    then I am controller: I decide what and how

  584. winfried

    But I rent a rig at my ISP, so my ISP is responsible for a part of the processing

  585. winfried

    (doing it)

  586. winfried

    NB: this is the classical example of a controller-processor relation.

  587. pep.

    Right, can we also maybe add an example on this line that's more xmpp-related. alongside the ISP

  588. jonasw

    do we have to disclose processors?

  589. winfried

    jonasw: yes

  590. jonasw

    pep., using google/android push stuff would be a processor relationship.

  591. jonasw

    (I think)

  592. pep.

    Roster management component?

  593. pep.

    Or is it a third-party?

  594. jonasw

    first, it’s a piece of software

  595. jonasw

    the question is under whose control it runs

  596. jonasw

    if you run it on another machine you (as the server operator) control, it’s still under your control

  597. pep.

    Say it's not the same person as the xmpp server admin

  598. jonasw

    and thus not a processor

  599. jonasw

    in that case, processor would probably be appropriate?

  600. pep.

    Well, you can be both controller and processor

  601. Ge0rG has left

  602. Ge0rG

    jonasw [13:38]: > do we have to disclose processors? Isn't the small business exception relevant here?

  603. pep.

    If you do everything yourself you'd be both

  604. jonasw

    Ge0rG, I don’t know, is it and where is that exception defined?

  605. pep.

    art. 30

  606. pep.


  607. jonasw

    (I am still not convinced that we’re not under 9.1 by the way)

  608. forensic58 has joined

  609. jonasw

    (at least with storage…)

  610. daniel has left

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  612. winfried

    Ge0rG: 30.5 is only for incidental processing, not structural

  613. winfried

    And if it is your core business, I guess it is structural

  614. jonasw


  615. Ge0rG

    processing of personal data isn't core business for an xmpp server

  616. jonasw

    then what is?

  617. jonasw

    (considering that storage is subset of processing)

  618. winfried

    Back to the controller-processor story: roster management is third party, because a controller-processor relation always is a contractual one

  619. Ge0rG

    Message delivery?

  620. winfried

    Ge0rG: Message delivery is also processing of personal data

  621. jonasw

    winfried, so what about google cloud push?

  622. pep.

    is external roster management something the user requests or something the operators sets up?

  623. jonasw

    would that, too, be third party? because there is no contract?

  624. winfried

    jonasw: yes

  625. winfried

    other point: does google use it only to provide a service or does it also analyze it for google's own purposes?

  626. forensic58 has left

  627. pep.

    That we won't know, but I want to assume the latter

  628. winfried

    In the latter case the data subject must have given explicit consent

  629. winfried

    and that is a big problem with the current mobile ecosystem

  630. Ge0rG

    so as the developer you accept Google's ToS and have to require consent from your users

  631. edhelas has left

  632. winfried

    Ge0rG: that is part of the ToS of Google? (never checked that)

  633. Ge0rG

    winfried: dunno.

  634. pep.

    Hmm, I guess that's one of the reasons for https://gafam.laquadrature.net/ against Google. That everything that is done on your device is somewhat tracked via a unique id

  635. Ge0rG


  636. pep.

    and you can't opt-out

  637. pep.

    I guess the dev should warn their users

  638. winfried

    yes, I expect https://noyb.eu/ to take it on in the EU

  639. pep.

    And maybe allow for a way to opt-out of push?

  640. Dave Cridland has left

  641. winfried

    pep. : and loose an important part of the functionality?

  642. pep.

    lose*, and yes

  643. Ge0rG

    https://developers.google.com/terms/ §7a

  644. winfried

    but yes, from a legal point of view that is the only way

  645. dwd has joined

  646. jonasw

    winfried, push isn’t *that* important. in many cases on android you can live without it.

  647. pep.

    I'm using the fdroid version of conversations, I survive :)

  648. jonasw


  649. pep.

    Ge0rG, so by using google APIs, all your users agree to Google's privacy policy?

  650. pep.

    Or I guess you have to get consent for that

  651. pep.


  652. jonasw

    the latter probably

  653. Ge0rG


  654. winfried

    From an XSF point of view I am afraid we must leave the app developers on their own here

  655. jonasw


  656. jonasw

    there’s no potential protocol development involved in that

  657. jonasw

    it’s between the app and the user

  658. winfried


  659. jjrh has left

  660. pep.

    I'll put that in the minutes still, so it's not forgotten

  661. jonasw

    not even the server side is much involved, it is just offering to act as a relay for the data to the google services. the app has to ensure that everything is in order for that. it sets that up explicitly.

  662. jonasw

    good idea

  663. pep.

    We can still warn client devs

  664. jonasw


  665. winfried

    +1 we have to

  666. Ge0rG

    do we have a template for tos/data protection policy?

  667. jonasw


  668. winfried

    Ge0rG: nope

  669. Ge0rG

    I need to write ToS for yax.im, and I hoped we'd have a template in place.

  670. winfried

    guess it is time to write one ;-)

  671. Ge0rG

    winfried: you volunteer?

  672. winfried

    Ge0rG: not on my own, but, ues

  673. winfried


  674. lskdjf has left

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  676. pep.

    So, as a mobile client dev wanting to allow for push, that would mean I would need to have the user opt-in really

  677. winfried

    I have taken notes to add to my GDPR in 5 steps scheme: contracts with processors mention push notifications

  678. j.r has left

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  680. winfried

    pep.: correct

  681. Neustradamus has left

  682. jonasw


  683. jubalh has joined

  684. winfried

    jonasw: ?

  685. jonasw

    is my location any type of sensitive data?

  686. pep.

    I'd say so

  687. winfried

    jonasw: not sensitive, but personal

  688. jonasw

    because there’s this weather app of the german weather service which has push notifications and maybe we can look at their ToS regarding that

  689. jonasw

    although we’d of course have to know what data is actually in the notifications to be sure that the personal data is in there

  690. jonasw

    and thus needs to be covered by their ToS

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  695. winfried

    jonasw: that is also an interesting issue: I know systems that only send pushes telling the app: log in, I have news for you, what is not very sensitive, except when the app is "the remember to take your HIV-medicine app"

  696. Dave Cridland has left

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  699. pep.

    I know daniel was working on push last weekend, maybe he has some info. I don't remember the details

  700. jonasw

    okay, in case of the warnwetter app (which I was talking about) it’s probably irrelevant because they anonymize the location to patches of 35x50km, if I’m reading this correctly, before transmitting it to the server at all.

  701. jonasw

    pep., for google push I think you can get away with a simple wakeup signal, but for iOS you have to actually send content IIRC

  702. dwd has joined

  703. daniel

    pep., winfried: github.com/inputmice/p2 has a very detailed write down of what gets send

  704. pep.

    daniel, thanks

  705. daniel

    On iOS that body is usually 'check you messages'

  706. daniel


  707. dwd has left

  708. winfried

    daniel: thanks, nice comprehensive overview

  709. jonasw


  710. jonasw

    so this only reveals to google when the same accounts receive messages

  711. jonasw

    which is probably okay

  712. pep.

    That still means the user agrees to the privacy policies

  713. pep.

    That's still valuable metadata

  714. winfried

    jonasw: depending, in some case metadata analysis can reveal sensitive information

  715. daniel

    But you can't trace this back to an account

  716. pep.


  717. daniel

    If you give me the hash I wouldn't know what User this correlates to

  718. daniel

    Neither me nor Google

  719. pep.

    You the push server?

  720. pep.


  721. daniel

    Well Google certainly not. But goggle couldn't ask me either because I don't know

  722. pep.

    Well google knows something has been sent to a particular device right

  723. daniel


  724. dwd has left

  725. pep.

    And what application triggered it

  726. alexis has joined

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  729. winfried

    daniel: am I correct that this is your privacy friendly setup and that other implementations may be less privacy friendly?

  730. jonasw


  731. Valerian has joined

  732. winfried

    Ok, so maybe we should list this as a best practice!

  733. daniel

    > daniel: am I correct that this is your privacy friendly setup and that other implementations may be less privacy friendly? I don't know anything about other applications. But I guess you *could* design it in a way that reveals more information

  734. pep.

    winfried, agreed. There's still some metadata that gets passed to the push component and google that the user needs to be aware of

  735. Holger

    The data pushed to Google is "the app vendor is asking to wake the app", right?

  736. pep.

    I suppose yes

  737. winfried

    pep.: that is correct, but it makes the story far less critical, I can really think about only a few *very* sensitive applications where this really matters

  738. pep.

    The thing that bothers me here is https://developers.google.com/terms/#section_7_privacy_and_copyright_protection really

  739. pep.

    "By using our APIs, Google may use submitted information in accordance with our privacy policies."

  740. pep.

    So that means the user knows about this

  741. winfried

    pep.: correct

  742. pep.

    I assume it's similar for iOS

  743. forensic58 has joined

  744. winfried

    pep.: to be precise: here consent (6.1a) is needed, not only information

  745. pep.


  746. pep.

    daniel, I guess for this you can add that to the "first start guide"? (is there one in conversations I don't remember) "I want push stuff"

  747. lovetox has left

  748. pep.

    should we plan for next

  749. winfried


  750. lumi has left

  751. pep.

    I can't do monday this time

  752. winfried

    Tuesday or friday are possible for me

  753. jonasw

    same for me

  754. pep.

    Tue 12:30 CEST then?

  755. winfried


  756. pep.

    We'll get input from Ge0rG when he's available

  757. winfried

    yes, nice

  758. forensic58 has left

  759. winfried

    think we should try to move to the XSF policies next time

  760. jonasw


  761. marmistrz has left

  762. pep.

    I'm going to try and tackle EULA with jonasw this weekend. jonasw I won't be available most of tomorrow, already :/

  763. winfried

    pep.: I can do some work this weekend too, plz ping me

  764. pep.

    I think we have most of the requirements on the wiki already, I'll try to gather all that, and then we can talk protocol bricks

  765. jonasw

    pep., ah pity, I won’t be able most of sunday unfortunately.

  766. rion has joined

  767. jonasw

    pep., ah pity, I won’t be available most of sunday unfortunately.

  768. jonasw

    if that’s okay with you, I might just start a draft tomorrow

  769. pep.

    jonasw, ok, we'll see how tomorrow goes then

  770. pep.

    And tonight as well

  771. pep.


  772. winfried

    ;-) (y)

  773. jonasw

    tonight isn’t an option for me either, unfortunately

  774. pep.

    k, we'll try to get in touch then

  775. pep.

    going for lunch nao

  776. jubalh has left

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  781. pep.

    Minutes sent!

  782. jonasw


  783. alexis has left

  784. Ge0rG

    Tue 1230CEST +1

  785. Wiktor

    in topic of GDPR: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17099484

  786. alexis has joined

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  795. daniel

    > in the otherwise rational tech sector. 🤔

  796. jonasw

    if one believes these comments, the GDPR is going to clear the EU market and open up a lot of opportunities for startups ;-

  797. jonasw

    if one believes these comments, the GDPR is going to clear the EU market and open up a lot of opportunities for startups ;)

  798. forensic58 has joined

  799. MattJ

    I was thinking the same

  800. Ge0rG

    jonasw: for GDPR-compliant startups.

  801. jonasw

    Ge0rG, yeah

  802. Alex has joined

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  804. alexis has joined

  805. jonasw

    from one resource linked there, in the context of Article 9.1: > It’s important to also consider a seemingly innocuous data field like “hobbies” and what that might indicate about a person.

  806. jonasw


  807. moparisthebest has left

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  812. pep.

    Does it really depend on the type of field, or on the data. Because as a user I can put any kind of data I want in any field I want

  813. jonasw

    interesting question

  814. winfried

    jonasw: yes, I am involved in some apps for people with mental disabilities and there we constantly consider: how sensitive is this datafield / processing.

  815. dwd has left

  816. winfried

    pep.: it matters how structured the data is, the risks of a structured field are *much* bigger then the risks of a datafield that is used in an unforseen way...

  817. jubalh has joined

  818. pep.

    Sorry I don't get this

  819. pep.

    Does that mean as an operator I can say "it's not my fault" if the user doesn't use my form correctly?

  820. winfried

    If you have a field "are you gay? " (Y/N) then that data is quite risky, it can be abused in a fully automated way. If somebody types in the field "other remarks" "I sometimes fall in love on people of the same sex" then it is hard to analyse, profile, and abuse, certainly without human intervention.

  821. forensic58 has joined

  822. pep.

    OK, and then we fall under the grey area just like for xmpp messages

  823. winfried

    pep.: exactly

  824. pep.

    I'd certainly like to know about email spam filters

  825. winfried

    and that is why fb is *way* out of line by selling advertisement on probably "gay", "diabetic" etc...

  826. winfried

    pep.: yes, that is still a fascinating one.... don't know for sure where the limits are there.

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  839. moparisthebest

    I like that guy's blog generally but https://jacquesmattheij.com/gdpr-hysteria sums up to what every GDPR proponent says about it

  840. moparisthebest

    "Sure it's draconian the way it's written and easily abused by faceless bureaucrat's, but trust them, they are benevolent regulators!!!"

  841. Zash

    Is it just me or are the ones being hysteric over this mostly Americans?

  842. moparisthebest

    I guess that's fine coming from the EU where half the countries still have monarchy's and are used to being subjects

  843. moparisthebest

    which is why, yes, I'd expect most opposition comes from the USA

  844. dwd has left

  845. Link Mauve

    Zash, that’s also what I’ve seen, maybe because they’re more used than us with getting fucked by lawyers for anything and everything.

  846. Zash

    I saw some comment on HN stating that this is roughly a ^C^V of what Germany has had since the 70s-80s

  847. moparisthebest

    Link Mauve, yes, americans have a strong and healthy distrust of govt

  848. Link Mauve

    Zash, France too since 1978.

  849. moparisthebest

    our entire system is based on the premise that govt is bad, and we should protect against an oppresive govt

  850. Zash

    Sweden has had pretty good privacy laws too

  851. Link Mauve

    But you see, it’s inimaginable to expect companies to respect laws from forty years ago.

  852. Alex has left

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  854. Seve/SouL grabs popcorn.

  855. Tim has left

  856. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, yet your government is bad, and you don’t do anything about it. :(

  857. jonasw

    moparisthebest, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17100541 maybe that’s relevant

  858. Zash

    Seve/SouL: good idea, I might have some left from yesterday

  859. jonasw

    moparisthebest, also, for certain definitions of "healthy"

  860. Link Mauve

    You haven’t done anything in the past century even.

  861. jonasw

    (given your health care systems, I doubt that anything is healthy there *scnr*)

  862. Zash


  863. Zash

    Y'all should learn to extend your distrust to corporations too

  864. Link Mauve

    Meh, of course there is no English version of this page on Wikipedia… https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loi_informatique_et_libert%C3%A9s

  865. Zash

    Nor of https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personuppgiftslagen

  866. moparisthebest

    jonasw, yea I read that, and it makes sense, we have everything spelled out because we *don't* trust govt :P

  867. Link Mauve

    The GDPR “just” increases the powers of our regulation entity (the CNIL), and uniformises that over the entire EU.

  868. moparisthebest

    right, and it's easily abused by a bad regulator

  869. pep.

    tbh I'm not that trustful of my gvt either, maybe not for any good reason, just because trust is a big word

  870. moparisthebest

    which I think is the entire problem anyone has with it

  871. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, yet they are so underfunded that they only go for big fishes and known problems, which is an issue on its own.

  872. moparisthebest

    an issue I'd be afraid they'd solve with more fines :P

  873. Link Mauve

    Yay, finally!

  874. moparisthebest

    anyway that same guy has possibly my favorite blog post on the internet too so it was interesting to see him again https://jacquesmattheij.com/if-you-have-nothing-to-hide

  875. jubalh has left

  876. pep.

    nice article

  877. forensic58 has joined

  878. jubalh has joined

  879. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, I fully agree with this article; now why would giving the exact same information to a bunch of companies be any less bad than to some government registry?

  880. moparisthebest

    it's not, but the solution is to just, not give your data to a bunch of companies?

  881. moparisthebest

    once you give it, you lost control, all the legislation in the world can't wrench it back

  882. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, except for most people, the choice isn’t between giving all of their data to Facebook or not, it’s between talking with their friends and family or not.

  883. Link Mauve

    And it’s a pretty easy choice to make.

  884. jonasw

    don’t talk to your friends & family and have more free time \o/

  885. Link Mauve

    Exactly! \o/

  886. Zash

    See, easy!

  887. jonasw

    except, wait, that only works for introverts

  888. Zash

    More time for hacking on code!

  889. Zash

    Introverts of the world, unite! Separately, alone, in our homes.

  890. j.r has joined

  891. pep.

    > Link Mauve> And it’s a pretty easy choice to make. I definitely don't agree with this. It's a conscious choice you have to make

  892. moparisthebest

    facebook isn't the only way to talk to people

  893. forensic58 has left

  894. jonasw

    moparisthebest, you think?

  895. jonasw

    tell that to my family

  896. jonasw

    (fwiw, I actually made that choice)

  897. Link Mauve

    pep., you don’t get this information, either before creating your account or during the time you’re using it, if you’re not looking for it.

  898. jonasw

    okay, that’s only true because facebook==whatsapp in my mind

  899. Link Mauve

    pep., the other day I went to some anime/game/cosplay convention, and every. single. person. asked me for my facebook account.

  900. Link Mauve

    For them it’s a no brainer.

  901. pep.

    Link Mauve, I agree you have to be looking for an out. That's not always obvious, you first have to understand what's wrong about it

  902. Link Mauve

    Everyone uses it, there is no price to pay to talk to those people, they don’t see any data being harvested, so it’s fine.

  903. moparisthebest

    everyone still has email right? 99% of people have SMS ?

  904. jonasw

    moparisthebest, yes, they have email

  905. jonasw

    but they don’t use it

  906. jonasw

    and SMS costs

  907. moparisthebest

    so they chose not to use it

  908. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, I don’t have SMS for instance. :p

  909. jonasw

    moparisthebest, yes, because facebook works

  910. Link Mauve

    I would get a JMP account if it was available in Europe.

  911. pep.

    And SMS is plain text right :(

  912. pep.

    I mean, no tls

  913. jonasw

    and no cat pics

  914. moparisthebest

    email and SMS also works?

  915. Link Mauve

    Yes, SMS is s/Facebook/your telco/ but the rest of the discussion is identical.

  916. ThibG has joined

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  918. moparisthebest

    and both support cat pics usually (well MMS)

  919. Zash

    At least telcos are federated .. amongst themselves

  920. Link Mauve

    Email is s/Facebook/Google/ so not much better either. :p

  921. MattJ

    Link Mauve, FWIW I have a friend who is not just oblivious like most people, but actually supports Facebook (and others) behaviour

  922. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, you’re very often looking for technical solution to social problems, it’s not necessarily a good way to address those.

  923. Link Mauve

    MattJ, yeah, those exist too.

  924. MattJ

    I never expected to meet one :(

  925. moparisthebest

    are legislative solutions to social problems a better way to address them Link Mauve ?

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  927. jonasw

    moparisthebest, isn’t that what legislation is all about?

  928. jonasw

    addressing social problems?

  929. moparisthebest

    isn't that what tech is all about? :P

  930. jonasw

    (also, MMS are even more expensive than SMS)

  931. Link Mauve

    (Depends on the country, in France both are free nowadays.)

  932. jonasw

    lucky you

  933. jonasw

    I pay 9ct per SMS, don’t wanna know what MMS would cost

  934. Link Mauve

    Oh wow, I used to pay 15ct until 2012.

  935. Link Mauve

    In addition to 15€ per month just to have this number.

  936. jonasw

    at least the number is free

  937. Link Mauve

    Afterwards I changed providers, and it became 0€ a month to have the number and unlimited SMS and MMS and two hours of calls and 50 MiB of data with cheap per-MiB overprice.

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  940. moparisthebest

    I used to pay $0.25 each way back in the day for SMS, but since probably 2005 they have been free

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  942. moparisthebest

    well up to 5000 for free or something, virtually unlimited, I have actual unlimited now though I try to just use jmp.chat

  943. winfried

    Link Mauve: at least here in the Netherlands telecom is *much* more regulated then the internet. My telco provider is not allowed to do with the data what facebook does

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  945. Link Mauve

    winfried, I think it’s the case in France too.

  946. Zash

    OTOH, telcos and ISPs are mandated to turn over data to the police if they ask.

  947. jonasw

    winfried, but legislation won’t solve anything!!kk

  948. Link Mauve

    But I’m really not sure, telecom is a domain I know almost nothing about.

  949. jonasw

    Link Mauve, ahaha

  950. Zash

    Depending on how normalized that got after that EU directive

  951. jonasw

    a paper related to graph analysis started with "or mobile call graphs which were sold as is common with telecommunictions providers"

  952. jonasw

    but granted this might not have been france

  953. winfried

    Zash: in then Netherlands even for that the laws are more stringent then for server operators!

  954. jonasw

    but it shows that it’s not as good as one might think

  955. Zash

    jonasw: Wasn't that in the news the other day? About US Telcos selling location data

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  1165. Ge0rG

    I remember when it was insanely cheap to pay 9¢/min of 9k6 mobile internet over IrDA to a phone

  1166. Maranda has left

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  1170. Ge0rG

    And then I used to sit together with nerds, log into IRC to chat with other nerds and brag about being part of the future to both sides.

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