XSF Discussion - 2018-05-24

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  83. Andrew Nenakhov Link Mauve, not quite MUC
  84. Andrew Nenakhov We call it simply group chat.
  85. Andrew Nenakhov Parts of it are already working.
  86. Seve/SouL Andrew Nenakhov, I think he is just asking for a MUC where people can join
  87. Seve/SouL Like him or me
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  89. Andrew Nenakhov Well... We won't run 0045 MUCs.
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  92. Andrew Nenakhov If you tell me your JIDs I can invite you to our prototype solution. It's backwards compatible with regular clients
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  95. jonasw why?
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  97. jonasw do we need Yet Another Groupchat Standard? aren’t three enough already?
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  100. jonasw (or four if you count DMUC)
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  114. Andrew Nenakhov jonasw, we are building the one that works.
  115. Andrew Nenakhov Holger, no.
  116. jonasw -xkcd 927
  117. Bunneh https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png
  118. jonasw if it’s compatible to existing clients, how does it solve the fundamental '45 issue (resource === nickname)?
  119. Andrew Nenakhov Yes yes. We don't cover everyone's use cases though.
  120. Steve Kille It is of course easier to hack something to solve your own specific problems, than to produce a general solution
  121. Andrew Nenakhov Just ours.
  122. Andrew Nenakhov It is compatible in different way. Existing clients will treat it like a standard contact in roster.
  123. jonasw that doesn’t sound
  124. jonasw that doesn’t sound at all like Group Chat 1.0
  125. Andrew Nenakhov Steve Kille, you see, once you try to do a universal standard for everyone's needs, people will flock immediately and start demanding to add this and that
  126. Andrew Nenakhov From what I understand it killed MIX before it was even born
  127. jonasw having 10 standards for a fundamental feature like chats between more than two people will kill XMPP though :)
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  129. Steve Kille jonasw: that is a key point
  130. jonasw I think the MIX split is doing much good here
  131. jonasw uh, Steve Kille, a thought which just crossed my mind: It would be *excellent* if each sub-feature in each XEP would be marked with who is responsible to implement it. like in my email: "User Client", "User Server", "MIX Component"
  132. jonasw this would give a very quick overview of the complexity of a MIX part for a given project
  133. Andrew Nenakhov Xmpp is already mostly dead.
  134. Steve Kille Making good choices as to what is in a universal standard and what is mandatory/optional is key. If you make it too thin, it is a problem because it does not solve necessary problems.
  135. jonasw I’d like to know for example what a client needs to do in order to benefit from MIX-ANON (it doesn’t necessarily need to *know* this is an ANON room, just the basic question "can I join a MIX-ANON room without doing additional things on the client side?")
  136. Steve Kille Let's start with the table you suggested.
  137. jonasw sure, one step at a time :)
  138. Steve Kille The way MIX-ANON has come out, it does not impact end user client at all. I was pleased that the split enabled this.
  139. jonasw Steve Kille, regarding your question about the PR: you can always start working on top of your working tree, even if I haven’t merged things yet
  140. Steve Kille Table will make this clear
  141. jonasw it shouldn’t lead to conflicts (if you don’t do version blocks; which you don’t need to, in general), and if it does I can resolve them
  142. Steve Kille jonasw: we need to synchronize, which is why I checked.
  143. jonasw this is great (about MIX-ANON)
  144. Steve Kille I'll bash on and do this after my bike ride to work
  145. jonasw but it’s indeed trivial, will merge it right away
  146. Steve Kille OK - so shall I add a new version number for the table (0.11.2)?
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  149. jonasw Steve Kille, you can, otherwise I will :)
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  151. jonasw (merged and pushed your editorial fixes)
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  409. ralphm set the topic to XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  410. ralphm bangs gavel
  411. MattJ May just be you and me though...
  412. ralphm Hmm
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  415. ralphm No Martin?
  416. Kev I'd like to note that, with an iteam hat on, I'm assuming Board has done due diligence with GDPR on our infrastructure, and will tell us if anything needs to change.
  417. Ge0rG There is a hugely important agendum pending, regarding the Board competence wrt. the GDPR XEP
  418. ralphm Ge0rG: while I agree on the importance of making sure everyone is ready for the GDPR, I don't think we should rush the XEP, if that's what you're getting at
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  420. Kev It's not.
  421. Ge0rG There is also a meta-agendum regarding the process for XEPs that are neither technical nor processual, but rather legal.
  422. Kev The XEP was presented to Council. I don't believe Council has competence to be the approving body for such a XEP.
  423. MattJ I don't think there should be any process for XEPs that are legal, because... we don't have legal XEPs
  424. Kev So the question is what to do about it that Board is happy with.
  425. MattJ We're not an organisation that gives law advice
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  427. Kev If Board is happy to be the approving body, we make a chance to XEP1 that allows an Informational XEP to be approved by Board.
  428. ralphm Kev: I understand that part, and I agree with MattJ
  429. ralphm I think stpeter's suggestion has some merit in that regard
  430. Kev If Board doesn't feel they have, or are able to acquire, competence here, then we probably communicate back that the XSF isn't the place for this XEP before any more work goes into it.
  431. Kev The central point being that I (strongly) feel that Council isn't the right place to approve a XEP giving advince on complying with the GDPR, whether that is "legal advice" or not.
  432. MattJ Agreed - but neither is the Board. And in that case, it means the XSF as an organisation is not
  433. ralphm I don't feel comfortable with the abstract on behalf of the XSF, either. It currently says: “This informational XEP provides information on deploying XMPP in way that is compliant with the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) of the European Union.”
  434. Kev (Other options are Board reviewing it and assuring Council that it is fine to publish from a legal perspective, and that Council should only review technical content, or changing the XEP such that it's not trying to give GDPR advince)
  435. Kev MattJ: I think the Board saying "No can do" is a reasonable outcome, if that's what Board feels. I'm just concerned that Council can't judge this (and, even if it's not legal advice, Council can't make the call on whether it's legal advice).
  436. ralphm I wouldn't be confortable as Council either, I agree
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  438. ralphm The thing with the GDPR is that, for example, you should not store more information than needed. This can vary quite a bit depending on the nature of a particular deployment.
  439. Kev Board have the option to get legal advice on it.
  440. Kev Council don't have that sort of authority :)
  441. MattJ I think there are a few options
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  443. MattJ - Trim it down until it's not GDPR-specific, and we're comfortable that it's nowhere near being taken as legal advice
  444. MattJ - Consult a (presumably costly) third-party to make us comfortable with it (and possibly aid in the editorial process)
  445. MattJ - Don't publish it
  446. MattJ (under the XSF)
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  448. MattJ The author(s) can still do what they like with it
  449. MattJ Winfried has stated that #1 is not feasible, because it contains some very GDPR-specific statements, and presumably removing those may undermine the purpose of the document
  450. MattJ #2 is not feasible because of our financial situation, in my opinion
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  452. winfried Mind if I join in?
  453. MattJ Please do!
  454. Kev Please do.
  455. ralphm Having a list of what's a reasonable minimum to store to be able to provide a particular service would be useful. I'm curious myself about the ability to take notice of Privacy Policies.
  456. winfried Short, I am on the move
  457. ralphm (let alone explicit consent for certain processing)
  458. winfried The issue is liability
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  460. winfried Don't know to what extent the xsf is liable for xeps but we can limited it by presenting it as an opinion of the xsf in stead of guidelines
  461. ralphm And things like advise on the proper protection of the data you store, but I believe that GDPR doesn't require certain types of encryption (e.g. Encryption at Rest), but you need to ensure it is protected adequately.
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  464. MattJ If someone (small independent service operator, large commercial operator) gets fined for being in violation of the GDPR but followed everything in our XEP, I can see how they may try to turn to the XSF for recompense
  465. ralphm winfried: I personally wouldn't want to go anywhere near providing an opinion as the XSF. At most I'd record best practices and points of attention. For the rest defer to experts.
  466. MattJ Whether they would actually have a case or not, I have no idea
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  468. ralphm Say you run a public server hosting MUC rooms only. Each of the rooms are created by the owner of the server, but everybody is free to join them. How can you provide a proper Privacy Policy, how do you collect and process what data, and why? What can you do if someone requests removal?
  469. ralphm There's so much there.
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  471. MattJ I think there is room for an Informational "Privacy Considerations for XMPP Server Operators" XEP
  472. ralphm Agreed, and I think *that* would be in scope for the Council just fine.
  473. Zash How would that be different from a GDPR-less GDPR XEP?
  474. ralphm Note that the example above is not arbitrary. There's some work to be done here. (Nod to Kev).
  475. MattJ Zash, it wouldn't, really
  476. MattJ But the current document has headings like "Is the GDPR appliccable to you?" - that's not something we can answer for anyone, that they can't just as easily get answered somewhere else
  477. ralphm Exactly.
  478. ralphm E.g. it depends on where the server operator is located.
  479. ralphm E.g. if you server is within the EU, I think the GDPR still applies even if all your users are not.
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  484. ralphm Well, I guess that's it then
  485. ralphm For the record, there was never really a meeting today.
  486. MattJ Indeed. A formal vote isn't possible with over half the Board absent
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  488. ralphm set the topic to XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  489. ralphm unbangs gavel
  490. MattJ But I think it's ok for the the council to not accept in the meantime, and for discussion to continue on the list
  491. ralphm (yes I can do that)
  492. ralphm MattJ: agreed
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  499. winfried ralphm MattJ thanks for discussing this, I will take this, I will think a bit about how to handle this. I personally don't mind putting my own head in the line of fire, so I may also publish parts of the GDPR work as a personal opinion, outside the structures of the XSF.
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  502. MattJ Sounds great - and also identify things we do need protocol features to support, such as the ToS/privacy stuff that was discussed
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  509. jonasw so, I am looking at muchopper (to index MUCs in XMPP) again. are MUC bare JIDs, Subjects and Descriptions in any way personal data under GDPR? I don’t think so from the definition of personal data in Art 4.1, but if someone disagrees, let me know.
  510. Ge0rG I know this is controversial, but I'd say that public MUCs are public.
  511. Zash > basically anything is this personal data?
  512. jonasw Ge0rG, indeed, I’m going to filter for MUCs which have the publicly listed flag enabled
  513. Ge0rG jonasw: you could index the other ones for stats, but hide JID and meta data.
  514. jonasw what type of stats?
  515. Zash occupant count?
  516. Ge0rG dunno. Average number of users in a MUC? Number of people who are not in every MUC that has "xmpp" in the name?
  517. jonasw Ge0rG, what would I use as key then in my database for those?
  518. jonasw HMAC(some-secret, mucjid)?
  519. Zash Better PBKDF2 with i>9000
  520. jonasw ELOAD
  521. Ge0rG jonasw: if some-secret isn't in the DB, that's ok.
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  525. jonasw I need to store the JID to be able to re-join after a restart
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  527. Zash Is a MUC JID personal data?
  528. jonasw I don’t feel like it is
  529. jonasw the domain part might be though
  530. Ge0rG I don't think either is.
  531. Ge0rG jonasw: you also need to store the JID to blacklist MUCs
  532. jonasw no
  533. Ge0rG Ah, right. HMAC is sufficient
  534. jonasw MUCs can blacklist muchopper by banning it’s JID
  535. jonasw MUCs can blacklist muchopper by banning its JID
  536. Ge0rG That, too.
  537. jonasw if a join fails due to a ban, data is purged
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  539. Zash How do you remember that someone does not want your cookies?!!!
  540. jonasw but for restoring state I’ll need the JID, so I’ll always have to store the JID
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  569. pep. Hmm, tbh the board discussion above seemed like one of our gdpr meetings, like beheaded chickens not really understanding what's happening
  570. MattJ As I said before all this started, that's the best that anyone can do right now :)
  571. Ge0rG pep.: is it possible that you and me were in different GDPR meetings?
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  584. ralphm jonasw: personal data is any data relating to a natural person on its own or in combination with other data. This includes all kinds of identifiers, including JIDs
  585. ralphm Ge0rG: for the purposes of the GDPR it doesn't matter if something is public or not
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  587. Kev ralphm: "It includes all kinds of identifiers, including JIDs" - but doesn't include all JIDs, correct?
  588. Zash A place someone goes to can imply interests which is personal info.
  589. ralphm Kev: JIDs leading to invidivuals
  590. Kev Right.
  591. ralphm so that includes the participant JID in MUC or proxyJID in MIX
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  594. Ge0rG ralphm: that's true. But I still wonder what kind of data processing can be made on data that was made public by its owners.
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  596. Kev Hmm. But a proxy JID in MIX is something that is assigned by the service, and doesn't identify the user, kinda.
  597. Kev It is an identifier for the user, yet doesn't identify the user, if that makes any sense at all.
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  599. ralphm Ge0rG: the XSF is forwarding your message to everyone in this room. That's processing. And for a specific, explict and legitimate purpose.
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  601. ralphm We are also storing logs.
  602. Kev I guess MIX proxy JIDs are actually quite similar to IPs.
  603. Kev So yeah, point withdrawn.
  604. ralphm Kev: it is a stable identifier for a natural person in the context of the MIX room. So yes, under the GDPR that is personal.
  605. Ge0rG ralphm: my question wasn't even about the xsf, but in that specific situation you could probably argue that the user gives consent by entering a public MUC and writing something
  606. Kev Yes, already talked myself around.
  607. ralphm Ge0rG: consent needs to be explicit and specific. In this case, you probably want a Privacy Policy to cover this use.
  608. ralphm We have voted on one in 2008. Can't find it right now.
  609. Kev Was probably lost in the Battle-Tested and Secure website update :)
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  611. ralphm Kev: privacy.shtml
  612. ralphm there's a copy here: https://web.archive.org/web/20120808002100/https://www.jabber.org/service-policy/
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  614. Kev You mean you've got it, or you'd like me to search on the server for it?
  615. Kev Ah, cool.
  616. ralphm And I have it in my gitorious clone of the xmpp repo
  617. Kev That's jabber.org's, though, not xmpp.org's?
  618. Kev Or is it so old it predates the split?
  619. ralphm well, haha: https://xmpp.org/2008/12/privacy-policy-approved/
  620. Kev Ah, no, loaded now. That's jabber.org's, not the XSF's.
  621. Ge0rG ralphm: I didn't see a consent dialog popup when joining this room for the first time.
  622. ralphm Kev: which seems to imply things I'm very curious about now.
  623. ralphm Ge0rG: yes, indeed
  624. ralphm but pizza
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  656. Zash ARGH!
  657. Zash I didn't reload the mail config?
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  662. jonasw :(
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  664. Zash "and nothing of value was lost" :P
  665. Zash Why does the mailman archive not show dates?
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  668. Zash Uh, does doing the member survey mean I agree to Googles privacy policy etc?
  669. jonasw probably
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  740. Ge0rG Just in time. https://yaxim.org/blog/2018/05/24/updated-yax-dot-im-policies/
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  748. Seve/SouL Congratulations, would be interesting if you get any message from one of your users regarding this, like requesting information, etc.
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  753. Wiktor ...or a nightmare letter: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/nightmare-letter-subject-access-request-under-gdpr-karbaliotis
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  755. jonasw meh, so apparently there’s no way to know whether a MUC wants to be listed publicly unless one has privileges over that MUC
  756. jonasw the #roominfo from distributed via disco#info doesn’t contain it, and the #roomconfig isn’t available to unprivileged users
  757. Wiktor isn't checking MUC server to see if the room is listed there sufficient?
  758. jonasw Wiktor, the list could be extremely long
  759. Zash Won't it *not* be in disco#items?
  760. jonasw Zash, I might have the MUC jid from another user or invite, and I need to know if the room wants to be publicly listed
  761. Wiktor jonasw: yep, but that's additional info for your bot :)
  762. marmistrz has left
  763. jonasw so... the only way to do that is by iterating MUC directories .. :/
  764. marmistrz has left
  765. Zash > :tag("feature", {var = get_hidden(event.room) and "muc_hidden" or "muc_public"}):up();
  766. jonasw ohh features
  767. jonasw right
  768. Zash Is this some magical thing only Prosody trunks MUC does?
  769. matlag has joined
  770. Zash jonasw: Oh I thought this was what you already checked?
  771. jonasw ejabberd also des it
  772. jonasw Zash, no, I looked at the #roominfo form
  773. Zash Ah, ok
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  846. pep. jonasw, Ge0rG, winfried, my presence my be spotty tomorrow I just recalled I'm taking a train. At that time I should be waiting for it (queueing) so I should be able to attend from the phone
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  900. vanitasvitae Is there an XMPP mastodon account? I was searching, but could not find one...
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