XSF Discussion - 2018-05-25

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  211. jonasw not that I knew
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  295. winfried GDPR in +3
  296. jonasw uh, lunch in +0
  297. winfried same here ;-)
  298. Wiktor vanitasvitae: what do you mean by Mastodon? do you want to promote social services based on the nefarious HTTP protocol, while we have some based on XMPP? :)
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  300. jonasw I’m kinda there nevertheless, winfried
  301. jonasw pep., Ge0rG, GDPR in +0
  302. Ge0rG wut?
  303. Ge0rG -ECOFFEE
  304. Ge0rG The GDPR is active now. There is nothing more we can do, anyway.
  305. jonasw we can run in circles panicin
  306. winfried send every user a mail they have to give permission!
  307. Ge0rG I don't know my users' emails. I need to create an xmpp bot to ask them for addresses first.
  308. winfried Ge0rG: GO!
  309. jonasw I can let muchopper do that
  310. Ge0rG No, not Go. Erlang!
  311. Ge0rG jonasw: MUC-PM everyone for consent!
  312. jonasw do I interpret this correctly that tehre’s not going to be an actual meeting now?
  313. Ge0rG It looks like we are all here. Let's meet!
  314. winfried bangs the gavel, lets talk business
  315. winfried what is on the list today?
  316. Ge0rG looks at the chair.
  317. Ge0rG winfried: what is on the list today?
  318. winfried :-D
  319. Ge0rG There is a "TBD" proto-XEP
  320. Ge0rG There is technical work in the context of consent.
  321. Ge0rG My personal opinion is that I'm not doing any consent-requiring data processing, so I don't need explicit consent nor any kind of XEPs to support it.
  322. winfried Lets talk the consent XEP first
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  324. Ge0rG There is merit in having a formalized way to link to ToS and similar policy documents.
  325. Ge0rG At least it's better than something like https://yaxim.org/blog/2018/05/24/updated-yax-dot-im-policies/
  326. winfried Ge0rG: first of all: it is not only about consent, but also about informing users about the privacy statement and changes in it
  327. winfried other jurisdictions or other deployments *may* have the need for consent
  328. jonasw I plan to extend the ProtoXEP with an IBR integration proprosal and write a draft prosody module which implements the Ad-Hoc flow this weekend
  329. Ge0rG winfried: good point. Is there a legal obligation to inform users about ToS changes that do not require explicit consent?
  330. Ge0rG jonasw: also don't forget to submit yaxim PRs :P
  331. jonasw Ge0rG, you wish
  332. winfried Ge0rG: yes, there is
  333. winfried consent is article 6.1a + article 7, informing is article 12
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  335. winfried I feel the XEP should cover both use cases
  336. jonasw it does, I hope
  337. Ge0rG > When requested by the data subject, the information may be provided orally Yay.
  338. jonasw when I have the draft impl in prosody for the Ad-Hoc flow, I can make a demo video
  339. winfried (haven't checked the latest version, but it should)
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  341. winfried Anything else on the ToS-XEP?
  342. Ge0rG winfried: I've skimmed §12 but I don't see anything about pushing updates to users
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  348. winfried Ge0rG: it say right at the start "appropriate measures" (own translation from dutch), that includes informing about changes...
  349. winfried Ge0rG: at least, that is where is case-law has been heading
  350. winfried but you are right, when skimming it, I don't see it explicitly stated
  351. pep. !
  352. winfried hi pep. !
  353. pep. Sorry I even missed the start
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  355. winfried I propose to move on to the informal TBD XEP I submitted
  356. winfried The XSF seems te be a bit reluctant to give legal advice (what I kind of understand)
  357. pep. Well if we can't give some kind of guidance this meetings were somewhat pointless, no
  358. pep. I mean from the XSF point of view
  359. pep. The ToS XEP is coming out which is good, but it doesn't cover everything
  360. winfried so I proposed, here in the MUC and on standards@ to write a XEP with general privacy considerations and best practices and to keep hard legal stuff out of the XSF but on personal title
  361. jonasw that doesn’t seem like a bad idea
  362. pep. Where do you want to make the split between privacy considerations and legal stuff
  363. winfried pep.: you can say: check what jurisdiction you are in, you can't say: if A or B, you are under the GDPR. You can say: check your retention policy in MAM, you can't say: to be GDPR compliant you have to default it to 0.
  364. winfried (Guess Ge0rG is on the phone)
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  366. Ge0rG winfried: no, but I agree so far
  367. Kev If the privacy XEP happens to be what's needed for the GDPR, and individuals want to blog/Twit/whatever "The XSF has published privacy recommendations. I think these are sufficient for GDPR compliance", that seems fine to me.
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  369. Kev Just so long as the XEP itself doesn't go near law.
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  374. winfried Kev:I agree the goal of the XEP should be to present an outline that brings an operator close to GDPR compliance, but you can't go all the way because there are some choice to make that have a legal component too. The exact line where 'performing a contract' (6.1b) is insufficient and consent (6.1a) is need for example. Or when a client can enable MAM by default and when not.
  375. Kev And this is why I'm not competent to review a GDPR XEP :)
  376. winfried ;-)
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  378. pep. (I'm boarding, will be back in a few)
  379. winfried Then my next question is: who is willing to put his name under the non-XSF document? I don't care to do so (am putting my head far deeper in the line of liability-fire on a daily basis)
  380. jonasw I’m not keen on that
  381. Kev winfried: Don't care to do so, or Don't care about doing so?
  382. Kev Opposite meanings :)
  383. winfried Kev: thanks... I perfectly willing to do so ;-)
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  387. winfried Kev: (here I miss one of the subtleties of the English language)
  388. winfried Ge0rG, pep. ?
  389. winfried The other question is: coordination of the informal XEP. I started something there, but I would like it to reflect the work done here and the involvement of all of you.
  390. Ge0rG winfried: I've put my head into the yax.im liability issues.
  391. Ge0rG and my name under.
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  394. winfried Ge0rG: so we co-create this informal document?
  395. Ge0rG winfried: I'm not sure whether you are talking about the proto-XEP now or about a non-XSF document of some kind (what exactly?)
  396. winfried Ge0rG: the liability issue is with the non-XSF document, for the proto-XEP I think we have to come up with a workflow
  397. pep. I guess that's why there is so few documents out there giving advice
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  399. winfried pep.: three reasons: nobody knows, lawyers who know make serious bugs right now and providing for free gives liability or other discussions...
  400. pep. winfried, what kind of liability is this really. "I've followed a guide on the internet and now I've got issues. I'm suing them because I'm an [ass]"
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  403. pep. If you really want legal advice, get legal advice :x
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  405. winfried pep.: I know of lawyers blogging all the time with legal advice, stating it as their own opinion. So I don't think the issue is too big
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  407. winfried pep.: but a bit of risk is always there
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  409. winfried (feel some lag on the line... hoping to finish Q1.3 with this)
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  411. pep. winfried, you can put my name in there as well fwiw
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  414. pep. Now where is that document going to be published
  415. Ge0rG winfried: I can imagine posting a blog post on my private blog with IANAL "advice" for XMPP operators.
  416. winfried Yes, I was also thinking of my site/blog (though that one is mainly in Dutch)
  417. winfried Which one is the most steady and best read?
  418. winfried And an interesting question: should we coordinate writing it on a XSF chatroom/mailinglist ;-)
  419. jonasw as long as you don’t get kicked out :)
  420. Kev winfried: I think it also matters where you are, when you give legal 'opinions'.
  421. Ge0rG winfried: I'm pretty sure there is no liability issue for the XSF if we use this MUC
  422. Ge0rG Kev: what kind of "where" do you mean?
  423. Ge0rG winfried: my blog is minimalistic, but pretty robust. it's probably a bit off-topic as it is highly technical. https://op-co.de/blog/posts/
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  426. Kev Ge0rG: In the US, etc.
  427. Ge0rG Kev: is giving free "legal" "advise" on some blog while not being a lawyer an offense somewhere?
  428. Ge0rG asking for legal advise.
  429. jonasw I don’t feel I can contribute to this, so I’ll cut that meeting short for me, I have a tighter schedule for today
  430. winfried Ge0rG: it would be fully on-topic on my blog, but technically my blog is not very suited for longer reads https://www.tilanus.com/#weblog
  431. Kev I had heard that it was in the US, which is why IANAL is a thing. But that could be entirely ficticious. *shrug*.
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  434. winfried gives Ge0rG legal advise in a blog :-P
  435. winfried Ge0rG: and my blog is not very SEO
  436. pep. Not really sure what to do for my part either.
  437. winfried jonasw: ok... I would love of you can comment on a draft!
  438. winfried pep.: commenting on a draft would be the least!
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  440. Ge0rG winfried: your blog indeed is very strange ;)
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  443. winfried Ge0rG: yeah, still wondering of I should refactor my site...
  444. winfried and there are still over a dozen blogs that are not on my site yet!
  445. Ge0rG winfried: it looks like it's a javascript spa?
  446. winfried Ge0rG: yes.. wanted to expirement with some techniques
  447. jonasw winfried, commenting on the draft is surely a thing I can do
  448. winfried jonasw: great!
  449. winfried Ge0rG: can we create a collaborative editing document somewhere?
  450. winfried And we have to set a date for the next meeting
  451. winfried should we invite the XSF server operators to discuss Q2 with them?
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  455. winfried Guys: I have to leave in some minutes...
  456. winfried bangs the gavel and thinks about the old Buddhist discussion about whether a sound is a sound if nobody hears it
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  460. Seve/SouL That's deep.
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  466. pep. winfried: sure, same here I can comment. (Sorry my connection is really spotty)
  467. pep. I'll also try to comment on the ToS XEP today/this weekend
  468. pep. There's no planning for next?
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  487. winfried pep.: not yet
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  507. Ge0rG > Complaints have been filed against Facebook, Google, Instagram and WhatsApp within hours of the new GDPR data protection law taking effect. That should read "against Facebook, Google, Facebook and Facebook"
  508. Zash Spam spam spam eggs bacon and spam?
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  511. Link Mauve https://gafam.laquadrature.net/ is one such complaint, filed as a class action.
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  516. Zash So today is the day of the GDPRcalpyse?
  517. Link Mauve Finally. :)
  518. Dave Cridland Zash, Seems OK so far. If you want to continue to receive my replies, please click here.
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  521. Zash <{jabber:x​:form} type="submit">here</x>
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  575. winfried Ge0rG: are you aware of any other claims then those by NOYB and laquadrature?
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  578. winfried Link Mauve: My French fails on me there, is laquadrature.net preparing complaints or did they already file them?
  579. Ge0rG winfried: Max Schrems is actually the one I'm following the most
  580. Link Mauve They are filing it today, have been preparing for some months already.
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  584. winfried Ge0rG: yeah, NOYB got a *big* donation from me, hope that finally the android-spyware ecosystem gets taken down, it is a *real* problem in my work
  585. winfried Link Mauve: thanks!
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  900. Tobias Regarding GDPR, could I request my messages to be removed from an archive of a user I talked to on a remote server?
  901. Zash Sure you can. You can request anything from anyone! (I don't know the answer to the actual question.)
  902. Ge0rG Tobias: no
  903. Ge0rG Tobias: unless the remote user is a commercial entity
  904. tux has joined
  905. Tobias The user is not, but the server the user is on probably, not?
  906. Ge0rG Tobias: maybe, but the other server is storing data on behalf of that other user.
  907. Ge0rG Tobias: so they can argue they have a legitimate interest to store it to fullfil the xmpp service agreement to the user
  908. Tobias Ah...ok
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