XSF Discussion - 2018-05-28

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06:54:17 jonasw would be great if somebody with power would set a room description for this room
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07:00:50 Seve/SouL Good morning
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07:04:50 Ge0rG jonasw: I've been asking that for years
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07:17:23 Seve/SouL MattJ, the email on the survey is requested to be able to match which member filled the survey, isn't it?
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07:17:59 Seve/SouL Would like to know where are you going to check that, because I think my information is outdated
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10:27:27 MattJ Seve/SouL, just leave a comment that it's you, it'll be fine (but maybe ask Alex to update your info too)
10:27:43 jonasw MattJ, I think you /do/ have the power, can you set a room description for this room please? :)
10:28:43 MattJ Done
10:28:52 jonasw nice :)
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11:00:23 goffi Hey, some people where asking about my work on file sharing using Jingle here, I've written a blog post about it: https://www.goffi.org/b/hGKs6B4wd8dsgNZd5MzQjN/file-sharing-landing-next-release-salut
11:00:29 goffi were*
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13:24:32 jonasw anybody knows an admin of jabber.org?
13:24:51 Ge0rG Kev? stpeter? Just guessing.
13:25:34 jonasw to whom it may concern: there is a MUC with the address '@conference.jabber.org' (yes, without localpart) in the disco#items result. you probably want to sort this out.
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13:26:02 Ge0rG jonasw: shouldn't it be 'conference.jabber.org' then? Prosody even allows joining the MUC domain.
13:26:13 Ge0rG Crazy shit, but not explicitly forbidden.
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13:26:48 jonasw Ge0rG, @conference.jabber.org is an invalid JID. asking what it "should be" then is futile. it should never have existed.
13:28:19 jonasw in any case it prevents aioxmpp from processing the disco#items result and I refuse to add a workaround for that.
13:29:20 Ge0rG jonasw: that's noble. I'm sure that will show 'em!
13:30:00 jonasw Ge0rG, *shrug*, the remainder of the list looks like auto-created arabic spam rooms
13:30:07 jonasw so I don’t worry too much about the loss of information.
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13:37:14 jonasw but then again, what’s a client lib to do in this case? you can’t give the broken JID to the application, because giving broken stuff to the application which it might later use to send things to which in turn would lead to errors/stream termination is bad. returning an error instead of even a part of the listing is bad. returning the incomplete listing (removing the entry with the broken JID) is bad.
13:37:42 jonasw currently I’m at option 2 (return an error instead of the disco#items response). option 3 would be viable, but I’m not sure if that messes with semantics too much
13:37:56 Zash Throw your hands in the air
13:38:07 jonasw did that already
13:38:13 jonasw to my face actually
13:38:21 jonasw didn’t help though
13:38:29 Ge0rG force your server to close down the s2s connection!
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13:38:38 Ge0rG ...via adhoc admin command
13:38:54 Ge0rG <--- lovetox has left the room (Stream closed by us: Improper 'from' attribute (invalid-from)) See, it works!
13:39:22 jonasw you know that I can’t check that because my client doesn’t show joins/leaves!
13:39:35 Zash jonasw, what do you do on invalid data in other cases?
13:39:46 jonasw Zash, return an error to the application instead of the response
13:39:56 Zash jonasw, do that then
13:39:59 jonasw that’s what I do
13:40:03 jonasw (option 2)
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13:40:46 Zash Ah, you said that, sorry, coffee hasn't kicked in yet
13:41:41 Zash Seems I'm ♪ doing what frozen things do - in summer!! ♫
13:41:53 jonasw melting?
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13:42:42 Zash Brain melting or something
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14:03:28 pep. goffi: thanks! Reading
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14:04:53 Zash Shouldn't the formtypes be here too https://xmpp.org/registrar/muc.html
14:05:48 jonasw Zash, forms are here: https://xmpp.org/registrar/formtypes.html
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14:06:32 jonasw but yes, the registry is incomplete and out of date
14:06:37 jonasw somebody™ needs to fix that
14:06:38 Zash Can't find a link from xep45 :|
14:07:43 Zash Hah
14:07:56 Zash It has `muc#maxhistoryfetch`
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14:08:19 Zash Prosody has `muc#roomconfig_historylength` and `muc#roomconfig_defaulthistorymessages`
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14:11:13 Zash And `muc#maxhistoryfetch` was added in 2012?
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14:16:53 Zash The others were added to prosody 2 months after?!
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14:40:37 Zash Looks like a mess
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18:27:10 Zash Hey what should happen if you have a password-protected MUC and someone queries MAM?
18:27:23 Zash Also, does anyone actually use passwords?
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18:27:29 Zash Also, does anyone actually use passwords in MUC?
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18:34:44 Ge0rG I do
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18:46:38 jonasw ytho
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18:47:51 Zash Why what?
18:48:01 jonasw use passwords in muc
18:48:50 Zash Indeed
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19:01:10 Ge0rG Because passwords work better than member lists
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20:27:38 Andrew Nenakhov Passwords in mucs are one of MUCs deadly sins.
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20:52:31 Seve/SouL How can I get in touch with Alex, please?
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20:54:42 Seve/SouL I will check the mailing lists and see if I can get his email
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22:37:12 dwd A MUC password isn't a password; it's an out-of-band invitation mechanism.
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23:44:36 Anu It might sound odd but it may be beneficial for adoption for xmpp to take the best ideas from slack
23:44:54 Anu It’s what people use and expect
23:45:49 Zash Take the best ideas from all the things
23:46:21 Anu If there is a tool that is heavily used, it saves the need to retrain
23:46:41 Anu Part of the friction for non enterprise xmpp use is that you need to teach people how to use it
23:46:50 Zash Just remember that popularity does not mean quality or anything.
23:47:11 Anu Nope but it eases moving from one to another
23:47:22 Zash You might thing that, but I don't
23:47:27 Zash You might think that, but I don't
23:47:28 Anu Xmpp is the way it is because of that I’m clients in the 90s
23:47:43 Anu And irc
23:47:49 Zash If you try to be a clone of some other thing, you will forever be playing a game of catch-up
23:47:51 Anu Things people don’t use anymore
23:47:53 Zash You can't win that
23:48:26 Zash You can't make a clone clone be better.
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23:49:32 Zash You win by being different in some way that turned out to be even better.
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23:53:32 Anu Slack is an irc clone and even had an xmpp interface
23:53:37 Anu It’s winning for a reason
23:53:56 Zash Anu, any specific things we should be stealing? :)
23:54:23 Zash Nicer bot integration, buttons and stuff was discussed a while ago
23:57:02 Anu Org set up
23:57:17 Zash As an old console client irc user, I have no idea what Slack does and what parts are worth being "inspired by"
23:57:43 Anu You can create and org where users are isolated from outside
23:58:16 Anu And they can create their own channels inside, break out into adhoc group chats
23:58:26 Anu It’s why we use it
23:58:43 Zash And why can't you do that with XMPP?
23:59:43 Anu You “can”
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