Ge0rGNobody does it. Maybe most client developers don't care about UX, nor about corporate use cases
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jonaswI feel that org setup is more of a server side thing?
Ge0rGServer developers don't care about corporate either.
jonaswI think the ignite folks do
Ge0rGBut that doesn't matter because the client UX sucks
jonaswreminds me to make things even harder for clients by specifying the IBR flow for ToS
jonasweven though I’m inclined to simply say "ToS setups where consent is required before signing up are not supported by this XEP, but may be handled by a future specification"
Zash"use a web form or something"
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Ge0rGjonasw: so what you are trying to invent has no value over web forms but compatibility issues?
ZashAs opposed to everything else
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jonaswGe0rG, it has; for GDPR, you don’t need consent anyways :)
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jonaswconsent-requiring services will need that, but that’s #notmydepartment right now
jonasw(but the spec can be extended to support that, so that’s good)
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jonaswKev, MattJ, can some of you help me with an issue on jabber.org?✎
jonaswKev, MattJ, can some of you help me with an issue on jabber.org (the xmpp service)? ✏
MattJNot sure if I'll be able, but shall if I can - what's up?
jonaswthere’s a room with an invalid JID on conference.jabber.org: @conference.jabber.org (yes, with empty node part)
Seve/SouLI think Anu touches an interesting point and I have to agree with him on the specific idea he mentioned. Discord, for instance, does a very similar thing. Where you create a 'server' (I think they call it that way) and you can create as many as MUCs you want under that 'server'. Do we have a way in XMPP to do this? Like a top level node where you add MUCs under it? Maybe with MIX this is possible?
jonaswit would be great if that room could be nuked, MattJ
Ge0rGjonasw: don't forget prosody-modules and two days of surfing the web to find out which versions of which modules are needed
jonaswGe0rG, MUC is luckily built-in :)
Ge0rGSeve/SouL: I've argued for a long time that we need a two-click server deployment that integrates with LDAP, has all the nice modules... and a usable web client
jonaswGe0rG, do that!
jonaswdon’t argue, make it
jonaswthat being said, I think I mentioned that Guus is doing things in that direction. not only with a web client, but with WebRTC conference things
Seve/SouLjonasw, haha, no no. I mean, unless you want to have this component for every user x)
They call it a server but it's just like the root.
Let's say we join Discord. I create a 'server' called XSF. And under it, I create offtopic, board, council, etc.. and everybody that joins the XSF 'server' can check the list of MUCs I've created for the XSF.
jonaswbut nobody is looking in that direction for some reasn.
Ge0rGjonasw: but it's real work. Work for people who are more skilled in Lua and mercurial
jonaswSeve/SouL, you mean like a separate MUC namespace for each user?
Seve/SouLAll of that, is under the same service
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Ge0rGjonasw: I'm looking for corporate clients who would ask for that. None found so far
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jonaswSeve/SouL, this won’t be possible with MIX either, and I’m not sure if it makes sense at all. A corporate deployment would have a domain anyways and host their services under that domain.
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Seve/SouLHmm, I didn't have companies in mind now, but imagine a large company. They would have an xmpp server, and each department would create their own MUCs inside the department's namespace. Like: IT namespace> Frontend dev, Backend dev, DevOps, etc
Ge0rGSeve/SouL: that's great. Except that's not how large companies work
MattJSeve/SouL, you can have as many MUC domains as you like
Ge0rGSeve/SouL: today's bigcorp want a cloud-based / private-cloud deployment that's fully integrated into their CMDB and AD and stuff
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MattJWhich just about any XMPP server provides
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Ge0rGMattJ: are you speaking of AD integration or of "as many MUC domains as you like"
MattJBoth
jonasw(conference.jabber.org really could use some cleasing)
Seve/SouLI understand what you say MattJ.
But I think it would be interesting to explore that feature, as Anu said Slack works that way and Discord too.
Of course they have this feature because they provide this service, and this feature maybe would not be useful for someone using XMPP just to talk with friends, but...
Ge0rGMattJ: so you can write the instructions to set up a prosody for modern clients, including AD integration and a web client, on a napkin?
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MattJMost likely, yes
MattJAnd if you ask why not already done - everyone has a different set of requirements
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MattJYou may think it, but not every organisation uses AD, or needs/wants a web client
jonaswSeve/SouL, I agree that a hosted thing which allowed to easily add a domain, have a tickoption "[ ] Federate with other servers" and otherwise just deploys a modern XMPP server would be great, but time & money
jonaswI doubt that one can write down the instructions for integrating with LDAP on a napkin.
jonaswpicking auth_ldap vs. auth_ldap2 is a non-trivial choice to start with :)
Ge0rGMattJ: I know how complex it is to set up a prosody instance for non-commercial users, with less strict requirements. And it won't fit on a napkin.
MattJjonasw, Prosody's LDAP module was designed to work with no-to-minimal configuration a typical Debian/Ubuntu LDAP setup
MattJWhat I'm saying though is that there is no "standard set-up" (for anything)
MattJEveryone has their own requirements and stuff they want to configure, including Ge0rG
jonaswthere is no standard LDAP setup, from what I can tell :)
jonaswbut maybe that’s just me
MattJThere is not, but there are many. The one that Debian tries to encourage you into is one
MattJIf anyone thinks that enterprise deployment of any integrated software fits on the back of the napkin, they're plainly wrong
MattJThe reason things like Slack succeed is precisely because they tend to bypass all that in the beginning
jonaswyeah
Ge0rGMattJ: then people realize how expensive Slack is and want a single-click deployment. And end up with Mattermost
jonaswor rocket.chat
jonaswMattJ, any luck with the MUC nuking?
Ge0rGMattJ: there are some requirements that you can't argue are optional, like 0198, carbons and MAM
MattJI haven't used Mattermost, but I don't find rocket.chat very high quality software
jonaswMattJ, still it replaced XMPP at the company I work for.
jonaswbecause of -- among others -- rich text messages (beyond markdown-ish things) for integrated services...
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Guus(I was mentioned here, but can't find the mention in recent history)
Guus(or my client is acting up)
jonaswGuus, I was talking about the webrtc-conference-integration work you are doing
MattJjonasw, I don't seem able to access the server, so... no
jonaswMattJ, aw, pity
jonaswI’ll try annoying folks in iteam@
Guusah, yeah. We have Jitsi Meet as an Openfire plugin.
MattJTechnically iteam doesn't manage jabber.org, but there is, umm, significant overlap...
jonaswyupp :)
jonasw(checked the volunteers site on jabber.org, found half of iteam there :))
jonaswso now I’m abusing the better signal/noise ratio in that room for my cause!
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jonaswon a different but related note: I launched https://muclumbus.jabbercat.org/ into public beta today. It’s a replacement for http://search.wensley.org.uk/ . criticism, improvement suggestions, bug reports etc. welcome✎
jonaswon a different but related note: I launched https://muclumbus.jabbercat.org/ into public beta today. It’s a replacement for http://search.wensley.org.uk/ , so it’s a "search engine" and listing service for public MUCs . criticism, improvement suggestions, bug reports etc. welcome ✏
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Wiktorreplacement? ha! hardly... no comic sans! just kidding of course, looks very professional, will it provide a JSON endpoint?
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jonaswWiktor, thanks, and yes, some type of JSON endpoint which allows to enumerate rooms is on the TODO list
jonaswgotta run now though
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Wiktorgreat, see ya
Ge0rGLync is now appending ads to the "missed messages" email. Ads for the Lync mobile app.
goffijonasw: great ! Is there a way to query this by XMPP ?
Ge0rGjonasw: how comes there is no info about many MUCs?
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Ge0rGjonasw: it's also missing the room name from disco#info :(
Ge0rGsomething like "Name (<jid>)" in the first line?
Ge0rGI know it's the localpart in 99% of the cases, but I have an agenda to change that.
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Andrew NenakhovI think we'll be ready to show a working prototype of proper groupchat replacement this week
Andrew NenakhovWith client that will support it too
muppethjonasw for servers/rooms supporting muc vcard would be nice to include that in the room stats.
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Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: that reminds me of the promises the ejabberd team made back then instead of implementing XEP-0198.
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HolgerGe0rG will never forget that.
Andrew NenakhovYes, we replaced those too and implemented them in forked ejabberd
Andrew NenakhovJust not supported in clients yet
Ge0rGHolger: feel free to provide me with a bettter example of XMPP vaporware. MIX doesn't count.
Andrew NenakhovGroupchat is a much easier problem.
Ge0rGExcept it's not.
KevIt's an easy problem. It's the solutions that are easy to get wrong :D
Andrew NenakhovIt is. You might join our group chat when now.
Andrew NenakhovI can send you invitation if you want
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HolgerGe0rG: They tried stuff and it failed, that's all. I still fail to see the drama.
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HolgerGe0rG: And it's not like 0198 works well.
Ge0rGHolger: the drama is about to making empty promises for years about a feature that's really needed for mobile clients.
Ge0rGHolger: it's got its rough edges, but it works much better than not having it.
HolgerYeah, they've been busy with other stuff.
KevWho hasn't?
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Ge0rGBut I know I'm a highly controversial ultra progressive revoluzzer regarding XMPP support for mobile devices.
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Ge0rG...or reliable message delivery.
Andrew NenakhovActually, we do have progress on this front too.
Andrew Nenakhov;)
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: I'm curious to see your design
Andrew NenakhovOk
Andrew NenakhovGive me a minute
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Andrew NenakhovGe0rG, add xsf@xmppdev01.xabber.com to your contact list
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: what will happen then?
Andrew NenakhovYou'll be in our group chat
Andrew NenakhovBest accessed with Xabber for Web, https://web.xabber.com/develop/
Andrew NenakhovBut we've added backwards compatibility for old clients too.
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: I'm interested in the protocol design :)
Andrew NenakhovDocument is in Russian, will take some time to translate
Andrew NenakhovBut basic idea is simple
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Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: I can handle Russian
Andrew NenakhovMember sends message to jid of group chat, server resends it to other members
Ge0rGThat sounds like GC1 ;)
Andrew NenakhovFor old clients it adds line with name of sender, like,
GeOrG:
Whatever
Andrew Nenakhov> That sounds like GC1 ;)
I actually didn't find specification for that
Andrew NenakhovOnly mention in muc-0045
WiktorWhat is received by new clients? is there an extra xml?
Andrew NenakhovBut yeah, so far we didn't encounter anything that would be game breaking by this approach
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Andrew NenakhovWiktor, yes
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WiktorSounds interesting, and simple, also looking forward for the spec
Andrew NenakhovEvery message is accompanied by jid of sender, and his avatar hash
Andrew NenakhovServer also fetches username and avatar from members vCards
Andrew NenakhovUser can replace them
Andrew NenakhovAlso server sends a specially formatted presences so clients can differentiate group chats from regular contacts
Wiktorwhy wasn't resource part of JID reused as a nick? so that this group chat was somehow distinguished from 1:1 chats?
Andrew NenakhovBecause we didn't think it is necessary )
Wiktorgot it :)
Andrew NenakhovAnd also too many ears were fought on this issue
jonaswgoffi, re querying muclumbus via XMPP: not yet, but that’s on my todo
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: do you have a (Russian) spec you can share?
jonaswGe0rG, many MUCs don’t publish a description, that’s why there is no info
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jonaswGe0rG, regarding using the room name, many of the top 25 MUCs have a horrible room name (e.g. room name == description); I haven’t found a layout which makes that look nice. I have the data though.
goffijonasw: cool
jonaswmuppeth, could you be more specific regarding the vcard thing? I am reluctant adding third party images on the listing because of the huge potential for abuse.
Andrew NenakhovGe0rG, I can share it tomorrow if you don't mind. Too many dirt right now,
jonaswGe0rG, maybe ellipsizing the room name after 50 characters or something would, but meh.
Andrew NenakhovWe do a room name and separate jid. Jby default client is doing a slug of group name, but it can be redefined
Ge0rGjonasw: yeah, name, description and topic are handled in weird ways. I still think we should promote the name, and my favorite layout would be:
> Room Name (jid@domain)
> romm description (if different from room name)
jonaswthat looks awful, trust me
Ge0rGAndrew Nenakhov: slug-of-groupname is a great way.
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Ge0rGjonasw: one day you'll end up with uuid MUC JIDs.
jonaswthere are a few already :)
KevSwift generates those.
Ge0rGKev: for public MUCs as well?
KevOf course not :)
jonaswthis is luckily public MUCs only :)
jonaswGe0rG, hm, reverting to the current layout for room name == room description could work though
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Ge0rGjonasw: I agree with you that most people can't properly define the room name.
Ge0rGThere is a bunch of positive exceptions, though.
jonaswGe0rG, really bad is the case for kuketzblog, which has no description, but a string which should be the description as name
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jonaswKev, while you’re here, can you fix the room name for this room please?
jonaswit is equivalent to the subject
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Ge0rGI think it's symptomatic for the XSF to not be able to properly apply our own standards.
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KevI imagine it's someone using a client that's doing silly things.
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KevAlthough what the name *should* be, I have no idea.
jonasw"XSF Discussion"?
KevIndeed, that's what I set it to.
Ge0rG"XMPP Standards Foundation"
jonaswor that
Ge0rG"XMPP Discussion" would be a good one as well
Andrew Nenakhovjonasw, list of chats should say "XMPP discussion", and whatever yax.im part is not really important for users once they are in room
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Ge0rGjonasw: changed the xmpp@chat.yax.im name. When will it refresh?
Wiktorhmm... hiding jids in case there is name... it would look like google :)
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jonaswGe0rG, the about page tells you it takes something about one hour
jonaswWiktor, I’m considering hiding the JIDs in case there is a name, but then I’ll have to consider how to handle matches inside the JID in the search list
Wiktorpersonally I would move online users count closer to the name / description. On bigger screens it's hard to read the room name description and count without excessive eye movements :) maybe that's just me :)
Wiktorone way or another big 👍, this service is really good
jonaswthanks
jonaswregarding the online user positioning, I don’t think there’s a good way for that since this is a table :/
jonasw(and I don’t want to move the online count into the text field because it’ll be hard to discover it)
Wiktoryeah, I mean on mobile the data is compressed and it looks good, on laptop the important info (user count) is far away
jonaswon my laptop it’s fine
Ge0rGHave the number to the left
jonaswGe0rG, would have to trick CSS to make that happen
jonaswnot sure if browsers support that
Ge0rGjonasw: what about reordering the table items? Too easy?
jonaswGe0rG, not accessible
jonaswalthough, with a table it’d probably work
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jonaswthere doesn’t seem to be a way to do this with CSS, but I’ll look into how bad reversing the columns would be
Wiktordid I get this right that there is also planned "room language" to be displayed?
jonaswfollow https://github.com/processone/ejabberd/issues/2436 and https://issues.prosody.im/1149 :)
jonaswsure
jonaswI need to get back to work on my thesis now though
Wiktorgood luck :)
jonasw(which unfortunately isn’t "Enumerating chat rooms in a federated chat network")
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Ge0rGjonasw: you need a better thesis supervisor then.
jonaswGe0rG, dunno, I find "port this thing so that we can run it on a satellite which’ll be shot into space next year" fine, too
Ge0rGNobody can compete with satellites...
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jonasw(also, my supervisor is actually an XMPP fan)
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Ge0rGjonasw: I'm an xmpp fan as well, despite what I'm writing, and I'm a certified thesis supervisor. But I don't have satellites... 😒
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jonaswaww
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dwdI've just spent ten minutes debugging ahy this app isn't using SASL2.
dwdNo matter what I did, it kept using the urn:xmpp:sasl:1 namespace.
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jonaswthen you realized that that IS the SASL2 namespace?
jonaswwhile the other one would be urn:ietf:something?
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dwdjonasw, Exactly.
dwdjonasw, One day I'll figure out some non-trivial update to SASL2, so the namespace can align properly. :-)
KevUntil the next one.
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Ge0rGwhich will be the bugfix release.
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Ge0rGwhat about using `urn:xmpp:sasl2:1` instead?
Zashwhat about urn:xmpp:sasl2000
dwdGe0rG, Still a namespace change. No, I think it's doomed to be sasl:1 forever.
Ge0rG"Status: Experimental". Doesn't look very doomed to me.
Ge0rGI wouldn't be surprised if dwd turned out to be the (co)owner of all existing implementations.
edhelasactually XMPP is only made by dwd, everyone else in this chatroom are just multi
edhelasI have a question regarding 0045
jonaswwe all do
dwdGe0rG, Surevine is, I think, for now. Phil Roberts did one in Stanza.io, and I did one in Openfire. Neither's been pushed upstream, which I'd like to rectify.
edhelasmuc#roominfo_pubsub, it's not specified in the XEP where this is exposed when set, it would be nice to say that somewhere
dwd(Man there are times I want a +1 for '45, and jonasw, that was one of them)
jonaswedhelas, roominfo_pubsub is a disco#info form field
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edhelasah :D
edhelaslet me check that on ejabberd
dwdedhelas, I'd take that one with a pinch of, well, anything. I don't think it has sufficient semantics defined to be useful in an interoperable manner.
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jonaswGe0rG, your update to the xmpp@chat.yax.im room has propagated :)-
jonaswI don’t find it a good name still, though
Ge0rGjonasw: I still think it should be printed on a t-shirt.
Ge0rGIt's a much better description of MUC than anything you'll find in '45
jonaswbut not a good descrition of the room
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Ge0rGjonasw: I might reconsider a more on topic name once the current name gets painted onto some official XSF property.
jonaswthere is official XSF property?
Ge0rGLike this MUC
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dwdjonasw, All the XEPs, for one thing.
jonaswright, for some reason I was picturing Ge0rG with a spray can in front of a house wall in my head
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jonaswSCHRÖDINGERS CHAT would be a cool tag
Ge0rGjonasw: and a black hoodie. And the only light comes from a MacBook screen
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jonaswitym the apple thing on the back side of the screen
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jonaswwhich you taped over with a matrix sticker
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Ge0rGjonasw: that, too
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Ge0rGAre we speaking of Matrix or of *the* Matrix, though? 🤔
jonaswthat one movie, of course
Ge0rGthose three movies which actually are just one movie?
Ge0rGIt's complicated™
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jonaswnah, the one movie where people always thing sequels exist
jonaswbut they’re wrong
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jonaswdo you folks think it would be good to add a specified disco#info/disco#items response (part) which allows things to discover anonymous ways to access MUCs?
jonaswI’m thinking e.g. a disco#info form field which gives the XMPP domain of a service which allows ANONYMOUS login and access to a room✎
jonaswI’m thinking e.g. a disco#info form field which gives the XMPP domain of a service which allows ANONYMOUS login and access to the room ✏
jonaswthat would allow to add a "join in browser" button e.g. for support MUCs where such a facility is available.
MattJYes yes yes
edhelaswell I think that Movim is now the first XMPP client to make use of muc#roominfo_pubsub /o/
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MattJedhelas, from which spec?
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edhelas0045
MattJHa, what... that's been in there since 2006?
edhelaslooks like :D
MattJBut there are no details on what it contains
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dwd(More or less what I said earlier)
dwdI suspect it was from the days of "LETS PUBSUB THIS PUB SUB THING!"
Ge0rGSo it's a reference to a pubsub node containing a list of the pubsub nodes associated with this MUC?
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dwdGe0rG, Well, that'd make it a collection node, and those are unfashionable now.
Ge0rGbecause nobody can figure out if it's an item of elements or a list of items of one element each?
edhelasfor me it's just pointing to a pubsub node
edhelasthat's it
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Ge0rGlook, ma! a pubsub node!
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edhelas:p
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Ge0rGSo who volunteered to re-do XEP-0357 with messages instead of pubsub, again?
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MattJGe0rG, I don't think XEP-0357 really does use pubsub
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HolgerWell I see no real problem with the PubSub-like syntax except that it misleads people to believe they could use a standard PubSub component to implement an app server.
Ge0rGIt's misleading and it's adding overhead to understanding the protocol
Ge0rGAnd it isn't even actual PubSub.
HolgerI agree, but the question is whether cleaning this up is worth the compat foo you run into.
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HolgerThen again the number of public app servers isn't too large I guess ...
Ge0rGHolger: who would use a public app server anyway?
HolgerEr what?
Ge0rGHolger: most clients are bound to use their specific one.
HolgerI meant app servers for publicly available clients.
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Ge0rGHolger: if the XMPP server component supports both protocols, there won't be any compat issues
Ge0rGHolger: client devs who start at zero just implement the simple protocol in their app server / clients and be done.
Ge0rGlegacy push installations remain as is
Ge0rGlegacy authors sick of the pseudo-pubsub switch to the new protocol on a separate host name.
Ge0rGBut yes, it's good enough™ and nothing will happen about the status quo.
Ge0rGat least it doesn't have a siacs namespace.
MattJIt will if someone cares enough to write up the new protocol
MattJIf they don't, then sure, it will stay the same because it's deployed and working
Ge0rGand working(*)
Ge0rGwalks himself out. It's way too hot to be ranting about things that are good enough™
HolgerI just think we have more pressing issues than this syntax weirdness but I won't stop anyone of course.
ZashRough consensus and running code?
HolgerGe0rG: I totally agree 0357 isn't good enough. It's not enough to implement working push notifications.
Ge0rGWhenever I start reading 0357, and I arrive at the first mention of 0060, my brain phases out.
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HolgerGe0rG: As for the syntax issue, you then need to decide whether to stick to (non-PubSub) IQs or rely on https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0357.html#sect-idm140285094926944 for error processing.
Ge0rGUnfortunately, that first mention is in §1 Introduction.
HolgerYes that §1 'Note:' is insane.
MattJGe0rG, in the simple-protocol world, what would your next steps be? How would you implement your app server?
HolgerGe0rG: Purging that 'Note:' would be a good first step IMO.
ZashPubSub supports added payloads in the notification, at least for a <body>
Ge0rGMattJ: I don't understand the current XEP enough to make proper suggestions.
Ge0rGProbably actually implementing the protocol will improve my understanding enough to pinpoint the issues other develoeprs are highlighting for a year or so.
Ge0rG> The full process for enabling notifications requires initializing two separate push services: between the App Client and App Server, and between the App Server and the user's XMPP server.
The XEP isn't actually helpful in making its point, either.
Ge0rGThe Note in §5 is even more absurd than the one in §1
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Ge0rGI need IBR to provision the push service node? What?
Holger"possible, but not required"
HolgerYes I'd ditch that sentence too.
Ge0rGHolger: please send PRs
HolgerYaxim needs to register with push.yax.im somehow. That's all.
HolgerThe XEP doesn't tell you how because no need for standardization.
HolgerChatSecure uses some REST calls, Conversations some ad-hoc commands.
HolgerNobody uses IBR, AFAIK :-)
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Ge0rGHolger: somebody needs to streamline that XEP, then.
HolgerYup.
HolgerI offered to maintain it back when Lance quit.
Ge0rGHolger: what happened next?
HolgerKev took over -> less work for me -> Holger happy!
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Seve/SouLSeve happy to see Holger happy
Ge0rGKev: XEP-0357 sucks big time. Please fix.
Ge0rGHolger: you still could send strategic PRs.
ZashNot enough happiness to go around apparently
HolgerProbably happier community because I would've suggested adding business rules and whatnot. While I think the general consensus is rather to keep things unspecified in order to not loose flexibility.
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Ge0rGLike.. PubSub and IBR
Ge0rG> It is NOT RECOMMENDED to allow in-band modification of push notification content settings. Such operations SHOULD be done out-of-band to prevent privilege escalation.
What?
Ge0rGHolger: business rules would be great.
HolgerGe0rG: Forget that configuration stuff. Should also be ditched. It's per-account rather than per-device and the idea seems to be that *users* configure things.
HolgerNobody implements this.
Ge0rGSo the XEP creates a smoke-screen of distractions for how to do irrelevant stuff, is using an overengineered protocol for the parts that it *does* specify, and is lacking a description of how to be applied properly?
Ge0rGAm I missing something?
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danielYeah the xep is a lot harder to understand than to implement
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danielYou can write an app server and the client code in a few hours
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danielBut it's pretty bad at communicating what you have to do
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danielI don't _mind_ the overhead of pubsub. It actually allows you to reuse parts of your library which was probably the reason it does use pubsub Syntax
danielBut it's really distracting and leads you on the wrong path
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Ge0rGdaniel: you mean it allows you to reuse parts of your *pubsub library*, provided you have one?
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Ge0rGdaniel: as a client developer who implemented it, maybe you can provide some strategic PRs to the XEP to make it less horrible?
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danielwell after three years of trying to get the business rules in and failing i don't really feal like it tbh
danielso my general recommendation to new comers is just to ignore the fact that it uses pubsub *syntax*
Ge0rGdaniel: what was the issue with the business rules?
Ge0rGIt can't be *that* hard to get a PR merged?
Ge0rGis naive today.
danielwell if we had a mailinglist / forum / archive that would be searchable it'd be really easy to dig up those threads
Ge0rGDate: Tue, 16 Feb 2016 13:32:16 +0100
From: Daniel Gultsch <daniel@gultsch.de>
To: XMPP Standards <standards@xmpp.org>
Subject: [Standards] XEP-0357: Push Notifications is missing business rules section
Ge0rGI don't see any refuseniks on that thread
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MattJFrom reading that, it appears to say that every message added to the archive should generate a push? (i.e. almost every chat message)
MattJIs it meant to imply that's only for when the client is offline?
Ge0rGMattJ: that implies the question what "offline" exactly means.
Ge0rGI think we can agree that we need a push when the client is in 0198 hibernated state. But what if our server stack hasn't noticed a client hibernation event yet?
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MattJI've been thinking about pinging more aggressively after an "important" stanza was sent to a client
MattJi.e. after an important stanza is sent, follow it with a <r> and have a low <60s timeout waiting for the <a>
HolgerThat's what ejabberd does, except after any stanza (except when it didn't receive the responce to the previous <r/>equest yet).
Ge0rGMattJ: yes, following important stanzas with an <r> is great anyway
danielMattJ: yes that's the third rule or something
danielThe offline one is the first
MattJSo to clarify, you're saying it should send the message via push even if it believes the client is actively connected?
danielOnly if you haven't received the ack
danielWhat Holger said basically
MattJOk, just your business rules don't mention anything about acks
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MattJIt makes it seem like the push is unconditionally sent for any message that gets added to the archive
danielright. yeah that should be clarified. for each push token only one of (a), (b) or (c) applies
ZashDon't it send when CSI is on as well
Ge0rGDon't send the push? Why not?
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danielright. or only for stanzas that actually move down stream
Ge0rGI mean, I'd assume you should send a push whenever a CSI queue flush happens
danielnot for those held back by csi
KevSurely you want to push especially when CSI is active?
ZashGe0rG: Send all the time, for every stanza!!!
KevBecause then the user gets to see the notification and can bring their client up to view it.
ZashDoesn't it* maybe
danielAnyway Holger or Tilo are probably the better people to write it down having actually implemented it
MattJKev, you mean "inactive"? :)
danielI mean I still have it in my head somewhere but I might be forgetting details
KevWhen the client is inactive, when CSI is active.
KevWhatever.
Ge0rGKev: would you mind giving the XEP over to Holger so we can clean up the mess?
ZashMoar ambiguous!
Ge0rGAnd by "we" I mean "he" :>
KevGe0rG: Patches welcome.
Ge0rGHolger: ^
KevI think the basic logic is "Wait a bit after a stanza, see if you get an ack from the client, if you don't then send a push notif", right?
HolgerKev: My impression was that you're not happy with business rules.
KevI think I said that I was in favour of them, just not normative, didn't I?
Kevheads off to check what he wrote.
KevYes, I did :)
Ge0rG> I came up with a somewhat different scheme, which I’d like to also be allowable
Yay!
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HolgerAnother thing that needs addressing is the "ChatSecure case" where the app server basically wants to know whether the notification was triggered by a human-readable message or not.
HolgerOr some per-client configuration to limit notifications to only specific types of stanzas.
Ge0rGHolger: what kind of non-human-readable events should trigger push?
Ge0rGThere is really no excuse for low-priority pushes.
HolgerGe0rG: Jingle calls, any other IQs, or if you try to keep a 0198 session alive, actually any stanza.
ZashCache stuff maybe?
Ge0rGHolger: jingle calls are high prio
HolgerThen again you could argue that keeping the session alive is an ugly hack that needs to be fixed anyway.
ZashLike disco
Ge0rGthe only excuse I can see is "okay client, I haven't heard of you in a day now, and I have those 10000000 stanzas for you in my 0198 queue. Please come and fetch them any time soon"
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HolgerGe0rG: Yes, except that I will do this with a way lower number of stanzas.
KevGe0rG: Why not just drop the stanzas?
KevAt that point you're almost guaranteed most are stale.
Ge0rGKev: because the Gods of XMPP will be mad.
HolgerGe0rG: So IQs should just time out?
Ge0rGKev: you can't simply drop stanzas from mid-stream, you'd have to terminate the 0198 hibernated session.
KevYes, that's what I mean.
Ge0rGHolger: I have no easy answer to that.
HolgerGe0rG: Sending clients should cope with such timeouts? (Currently they don't.)
HolgerAh.
Ge0rGHolger: somebody should write Business Rules.
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Ge0rGHolger: the path of least breakage would be to low-prio-push the client on an incoming IQ, yes. The better long-term solution would be to respond from the server.
Ge0rGMaybe a mid-way would be to kill the 0198 zombie on an incoming full-JID IQ ;)
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HolgerLong-term I'd ditch the 0198 session.
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HolgerRight now we this will break notifications for MUC messages.
Ge0rGHolger: but session establishment is expensive
HolgerThat should be fixed.
Ge0rGIn addition to roster versioning, we'd need presence versioning.
HolgerI think Kev argued that way and I agree on this.
HolgerBut I'd like to make push notifications work before the year 2025 and I think we need the 0198 hack until then.
Ge0rGI think somebody proposed to treat XMPP IM as a database synchronization problem, some time ago
Ge0rGHolger: I agree
KevBy the 198 hack, do you mean sending of <r/> or killing sessions?
HolgerKev: Keeping sessions alive for disconnected push clients.
Ge0rGSo yes, I'm convinced we need two push priority types.
HolgerKev: Mostly to get MUC notifications.
daniel> I think somebody proposed to treat XMPP IM as a database synchronization problem, some time ago
Isn't that matrix?
KevSorry, I've suddenly realised I've missed a whole part of this.
KevAh, MUC, right.
KevYes, MUC doesn't work with multi-client. We should replace it. Let's call the replacement MIX )
Kev:)
Ge0rGdaniel: I didn't say *distributed* database sync.
HolgerAn alternative might be implementing some other hack to keep you joined.
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HolgerKev: "But I'd like to make push notifications work before the year 2025"
Ge0rGKev: yes, let's also add a dozen of unrelated features into it to make it hard to implement.
KevI don't think anything in it is unrelated :)
KevBut yes, we don't have MIX right now. Hacks until then seems likely.
Ge0rGAre there any experience values on the delivery jitter of low-prio pushes on iOS? They are deemed "unreliable"
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HolgerGe0rG: Seems to vary a lot. I think it depends on things such as the current battery level, on the notification rate, on how frequently you use the app, on the moon and who knows what.
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Ge0rGHolger: let me rephrase my question: is the median latency of low-prio push sufficient to obtain IQ results without the remote side timing out, typically?
HolgerGe0rG: I.e. on some devices, silent notifications seem mostly reliable; other users seem to never receive them; others are in between.
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Ge0rGIs there some kind of distribution curve on the notifications that do arrive?
HolgerGe0rG: Dunno numbers, but either way you can't rely on it. So ejabberd actually won't let low-prio pushes trigger a timeout of the pending 0198 session. But yes the IQ will time out.
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Kevdaniel / Holger: To check I understand, the rules here are basically:
* Make sure the server has a list of all clients/push requirements and a map from these to sessions
* On a new pushable event, send for everything that doesn't have a session, or where the session isn't sufficiently responsive
And that's the crux of it?
danielKev: yes
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KevIn terms of normative text, the 'know who I am' seems sensibly normative, and the 'responsive sessions' seems like a suggestion to me.
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HolgerYes.
HolgerA suggestion that could go into 0198 I guess.
KevAh, no, that's different.
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KevYou both want Push to say "If it's not responsive, send anyway" and then you might want 198 to say "terminate if unresponsive", but those aren't the same.
HolgerOk.
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KevDon't you?
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HolgerYes I agree. Sometimes I'm easy to convince :-)
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Ge0rGHolger: so you just agreed to write down all the biz rules? Great!
Ge0rG!praise Holger
Zash^C^V Kevs sumary?
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Ge0rGIt's confusing how Conversations is both #1 and #6 of the MUC list.
jonaswwill be better once we have language information
jonaswwhich was the dino MUC again?
Ge0rGchat@dino.im IIRC
jonaswthis is weird
Ge0rGIt is. And the domain isn't even a MUC domain, breaking poezio's MUC discovery.
jonaswyeah
jonaswnot only poezios
MattJ-version dino.im
BunnehMattJ: dino.im is running Prosody version 0.10.0 on Linux
MattJducks
ZashComponent "chat@dino.im" "muc" ?
Zashhides
jonaswZash, seems more like modules_enabled = {"muc"} to me
Ge0rGpoints at `@conference.jabber.org`
jonaswno, the domain doesn’t expose the muc feature
Zashjonasw, don't think you can do that
Zashjonasw, you can make a bare jid a component tho
jonaswsuper-weird thing
Zashdisco integration might not work tho, maybe we should fix that
jonaswat least the disco#items isn’t confusing
jonaswplease don’t
Zash-contact prosody.im
BunnehZash: prosody.im doesn't have any contact addresses
Ge0rGWhat about forbidding such corner cases?
ZashGe0rG, ytho
jonaswGe0rG, you might wanna destroy dino@chat.yax.im btw
Ge0rGThere really is no reason to allow joining a bare JID MUC, or to have a MUC on a non-MUC domain.
jonaswGe0rG, I agree on the former, but not necessarily on the latter
Ge0rGInfo> Room dino@chat.yax.im destroyed
jonasw\o/
Ge0rGOkay, it's breaking assumptions that need to be shaken up from time to time. But I'm pretty sure we have enough corner cases for client devs to care about, without adding such oddities
ZashIs there really anything in the protocol that forbids it tho?
Ge0rGNo.
jonaswif the disco#items were correct (i.e. contained the MUC), it might be okay actually
Zashjonasw, that's what I was referring to for fixing
jonaswyeah
jonaswI’m not that scared of the result anymore
jonaswI’m scared though what’ll happen when conference.jabber.org is fixed.
jonaswthat’ll be some serious amount of data :)
Ge0rGI hope we are going to end up with less Conversations on the top 10 list.
ZashIsn't it in dire need of some spring cleaning?
jonaswZash, very dire, very need
jonaswGe0rG, I doubt that
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ZashThe existence of conversations@conference.confersations.im is especially confusing
Zashcovfefesations
jonaswGe0rG, but if that bothers you, maybe you could go and find more MUC servers :)
Ge0rGhttps://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0045.html#disco-service-features "The service MUST return its identity and the features it supports."
Ge0rGjonasw: what's the default nickname of Christopher?
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Ge0rGMaybe it should be called Chatstopher?
jonaswGe0rG, it doesn’t join at the moment, but it defaults to '-C. Muclumbus'
Ge0rGjonasw: did you pre-populate it with the MUC domains from the old muc search?
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jonaswno, the old muc search is kaputt
jonaswGDPR’d
jonaswI used the compliance tester
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jonaswadded all domains and I have a recursive disco#items explorer going
Ge0rGI think SQLite has some ON CONFLICT that you can configure when *creating* the table
intosiYou mean ike the insert into table ... ON CONFLICT DO NOTHING mentioned?
jonaswintosi, except that I’m on postgres 9.4, yes
intosiNo time like the present for an upgrade then ;)
jonaswahaha
jonaswthat is a ratstail of things for which I’ll need a weekend or so
jonaswintosi, did you have any chance to look into @conference.jabber.org?
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intosiNo.
jonaswGe0rG, thanks, that brought a few new domains
intosiBetween a server upgrade, other work things, and not stopping my beloved keyboard from drinking coffee, I had few cycles left.
jonasw(bit over a hundred or so)
jonaswintosi, no worries :)
jonaswalso, sorry for your keyboard
jonasw(just wanted to make sure I finally found someone with +w on the right box)
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Ge0rGjonasw: glad I could help
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jonaswoh right
Ge0rGjonasw: I might also extract some (non-public?) domain lists from s2s logs, spam bot logs etc.
jonaswmaybe
jonaswwe need to do something about the invalid data form used by XEP-0157 though
Ge0rGUnfortunately I don't have the full search.wensley.org.uk dump any more.
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jonaswcould someone take a quick look on whether this is editorial or not? https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/650/files
jonaswI feel it is because the form specification in the document already specicfies list-multi
ZashI don't think the type attr is required on type=submit (?) forms
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ZashThey'd seem redundant since in most cases you are sending it to the entitiy you got the form from
jonaswindeed. type is MAY
jonaswdamnit
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ZashDoesn't hurt for readability tho
Kevjonasw: I would argue not editorial, it's changing protocol.
KevOr, at least, if you're ever in doubt, just throw it up to Council.
jonaswKev, I’m also wrong, I’m going to close the PR.
KevI'm not even sure that change is 'right', is it?
jonaswit is not wrong (type is MAY)
KevOne doesn't give the type on a result generally.
jonaswbut it’s not required either way
jonasw> For data forms of type "form", each <field/> element SHOULD possess a 'type' attribute that defines the data "type" of the field data (if no 'type' is specified, the default is "text-single"); fields provided in the context of other forms types MAY possess a 'type' attribute as well.
KevIndeed.
KevSo I'd argue that examples containing it is likely to lull people into a false sense of security that they don't have to correlate.
jonaswyay, that spawned aioxmpp issue number 200
jonaswyupp, gonna retract the PR
ZashHm, if a submitted form has conflicting field types, how loudly should you cry?
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pep.I'm trying to organize an XMPP sprint ("hackathon", whatever suits you) in Cambridge UK around August (dates TBD). Topics are also TBD. Please join xmpp:xmpp-sprint@chat.cluxia.eu?join if interested :)
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pep.https://cryptpad.fr/code/#/1/edit/gSOmgqjDKPIBQmeK41-Log/9wCZoyjHTNX07IrrYaJTSbcV/ as a preview, I still have a few info to put in there
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Alexhey guys, lets start our member meeting in 3 minutes
GuusThe suspense!
Alexbangs the gavel
Alexhere is our Agenda for today:
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-05-29
Alex1) Call for Quorum
Alexas you can see, 33 members voted via proxy, so we have a quorum
Alex2) Items Subject to a Vote
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Alexnew and returning members, you can see teh application page here:
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q2_2018
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Alex3) Opportunity for XSF Members to Vote in the Meeting
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Alexanyone here who has not voted yet and wants to do os now?
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Guus(sound of crickets)
Zashs/crickets/suspensfullness/
Alexlooks like none, then I will start counting the vote snow ;-)
Alexnow
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Alex4) Announcement of Voting Results
ZashDrumroll!
Alexwhen you reload teh page at:
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-05-29#Announcement_of_Voting_Results
Alexyou can see the results
Alexall reappliers were accepted, and we had no new applicants this term
Alexcongrats to everyone
Alex5) Any Other Business?
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dwdI'd like to say thanks to Alex for a job well done as usual.
Zashseconded
GuusThanks Alex!
Alex6) Formal Adjournment
AlexI motion that we adjourn
dwdSeconded.
Alexbangs the gavel
moparisthebestout of curiousity has a vote ever resulted in a member not being renewed or accepted?
Alexthanks everyone. Will update the lists tomorrow in the AM and send out the results to the lost
dwdmoparisthebest, Yes!
Alexmoparisthebest: yes
Seve/SouLCongratulations everyone, good news
moparisthebesthow did that happen? do you just really annoy other members or what? :P
ZashOther than the time nobody knew bears real name?
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dwdZash, There was that, and, erm... Solaris? I can't think of the nickname he used.
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Alexbear is the famous one ;-)
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bearyes, I am the example everyone remembers about my membership being denied :)
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Seve/SouLbear: why so? (I do not know the story)
ZashThe tale
bearthe membership application didn't used to have a real name part, and I go by "bear" everywhere including email
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bearso when I forgot to update my application people properly didn't vote for me to stay as a member
bearmy application had "Mike Taylor" IIRC and some folks were not making the connection - trying to remember all of the details
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Seve/SouLbear: ohh I completely understand. I'm glad to know it went like this and not in a bad way heh :)
Seve/SouLThanks for explaining!
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edhelasI'm actually replying to some questions regarding XMPP on his thread, if you see some weird things do not hesitate to correct me https://www.reddit.com/r/opensource/comments/8myh78/movim_responsive_webbased_social_xmpp_client/