XSF Discussion - 2018-05-31

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  106. jonasw Kev, I heard swift can do XEP-0055 (Jabber Search). Does it support RSM-based pagination and if so, where is the RSM element included? And if not, do you think RSM would be a reasonable way to do that and if so, where would the RSM element go?
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  132. Kev It does 55, I don't believe we RSM.
  133. jonasw I’d very much like to not return 4000 entries in one reply though
  134. Kev I don't think 55 supports RSM does it?
  135. jonasw does *anything* before XEP-0059 "support" RSM?
  136. jonasw oh look at this, XEP-0059 even uses XEP-0055 as example for RSM
  137. jonasw and it’s allegedly used with disco#items
  138. jonasw (even though I haven’t seen that in the wild with MUC services yet)
  139. goffi I though RSM could be applied anywhere without need to specify it. This this was we answered to me when I asked for disco in the past.
  140. jonasw (AFAICT)
  141. goffi I thought RSM could be applied anywhere without need to specify it. This this what was answered to me when I asked for disco in the past.
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  163. jonasw is there any standard for something like XEP-0055 (Jabber Search) but for MUCs? (not disco#items)
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  184. goffi jonasw: what prevent you from using XEP-0055 with MUC ? It returns jid and can use data form for any extra data you wish.
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  216. jonasw goffi: sure, I can re-use bits of 55 but I was wondering whether there was any precedent for that
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  372. Guus Board o'clock
  373. MattJ Hey
  374. Guus o/
  375. Guus ralphm, martin, nyco ?
  376. ralphm I am here, was held up
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  378. ralphm set the topic to XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  379. Guus yey
  380. ralphm bangs gavel
  381. ralphm 1. Welcome & Agenda
  382. ralphm Who's here and what topics do you prefer to discuss today?
  383. Guus I'm here
  384. MattJ I'm here
  385. MattJ We can discuss the next steps for the results of the survey
  386. Guus Also: gdpr compliance?
  387. ralphm Cool. Maybe revisit the GDPR discussion
  388. ralphm That should fill most of the meeting.
  389. Guus also: did anyone hear from Martin in the last few weeks?
  390. Guus he didn't renew XSF membership - I wonder if that was intentional.
  391. ralphm Not since May 3.
  392. MattJ Likewise
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  394. ralphm While there's no requirement to be a Member to be a Director, I share your curiosity.
  395. ralphm 2. Survey.
  396. MattJ The survey "officially" ended yesterday, with 24 responses
  397. MattJ Which I don't consider too bad, I was expecting worse
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  400. MattJ I haven't had time to do anything with the responses, barely look at them. I propose I do that and share a Google Spreadsheet over email, and we can discuss in more detail next week?
  401. MattJ and if anyone has specific things they'd like to discuss (e.g. points raised) we can add those to the agenda
  402. Guus Sounds good to me.
  403. ralphm Agreed
  404. ralphm 3. GDPR
  405. ralphm So there a few things here and maybe we should split them.
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  407. ralphm 1) the XSF's compliance
  408. ralphm 2) the proposed XEP
  409. MattJ Agreed, sensible
  410. Guus this feels like a beast: can we further split them?
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  412. ralphm Go aheah
  413. Guus I would if I knew how 🙂
  414. ralphm Well, there are a few things on 1)
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  416. ralphm - The foundation membership
  417. ralphm - The e-mail archives
  418. ralphm - The XMPP server with its rooms and archives
  419. ralphm shout if you can think up more items
  420. Guus that is: items where we potentially store private information?
  421. Guus do we use cookies on the website?
  422. MattJ s/private/personal/
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  424. ralphm personal, indeed
  425. Guus Matt just asked for everyone's mail address in a nice (but one-off) poll
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  427. MattJ I also stated how they would be used, and that they would not be kept permanently
  428. ralphm We can probably continue doing all the things we do, but we have to document what we process, for what reason, etc.
  429. Guus ok, stepping back: I'm unsure what exactly the end-goal is (other than 'be compliant' which I don't know what that entails)
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  431. ralphm And we need to revisit/reinstate the Privacy Policy that was written in 2008
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  433. Guus (we've got personal data in the wiki too, probably - and there's author information in each XEP)
  434. ralphm (for a discussion on this, see the archives of this room -1W)
  435. ralphm I also thought about the Wiki indeed, and the XEP
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  437. ralphm s
  438. Guus I was knee-deep in water at the time, have not read back 😕
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  440. ralphm Basically we had a PP for both jabber.org and xmpp.org, but with all the website transitions it is no longer available
  441. ralphm we have it somewhere still, though
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  445. Guus okay, say we are able to restore that: is there someone available that can tell if it is GDPR compliant?
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  451. ralphm First of all, no-one probably is 100% compliant, and you will know when somebody has sued you
  452. MattJ Nobody can really say for certain, there are too many grey areas - however I'm really not worried
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  455. MattJ Pretty much all we have is public, and given by people knowingly
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  457. ralphm The focus points will be documentation, the pp, and possibly retention, and information and deletion requests.
  458. MattJ There may be hidden things like server logs, but if we don't keep those for "too long", we "should" be ok
  459. Guus sure, and although I assume that that's ok, that's not based on any knowledge of gdpr on my part.
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  462. ralphm Well, I've been involved professionally, so I know a few things
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  464. Guus good. Tag, you're it. 🙂
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  467. ralphm I think we should also involve Alex
  468. ralphm haha, good one
  469. ralphm Sounds like MattJ knows things, too
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  471. Guus maybe we should task a certain group of people with doing an inventory of our data, and make recommendations?
  472. MattJ iteam?
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  476. Guus or an adhoc one (Ralph, Alex, the people that have bene working on the XEP)
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  478. Guus I'd be happy to do leg-work, but I need someone to tell me what to do.
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  480. MattJ Well in the case I gave (server logs), that's something that requires iteam - an inventory of running services and what they collect
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  482. Guus RIght - that's why I suggest to have a SIG or WT with people like yourself that know what to look for. A small group of people that maintains an overview, and coordinates efforts with other WTs and board.
  483. ralphm I think a work team
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  485. Guus This all might be me being overcautious, based on a lack of understanding - if you see a way to shorttrack things, that's also fine by me.
  486. ralphm so indeed, you need iteam for inventory, someone the leads the effort, and in any case the Secretary should be involved
  487. ralphm There are probably helpful 10-step plans out there, but I haven't looked at that at all
  488. Guus I'm unsure if we can volunteer the Secretary for a WT, but we can at least ask the WT to inform the Secretary. 🙂
  489. Guus Ralph, would you mind spearheading that team?
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  491. Guus you seem to have a good grasp on tings.
  492. Guus things*
  493. ralphm On the involvement of the Secretary, probably yes we can volunteer him:
  494. ralphm Section 6.7 Secretary. Unless provided otherwise by a resolution adopted by the Board of Directors, the Secretary shall keep accurate records of the acts and proceedings of all meetings of the Members and Directors. The Secretary shall give all notices required by law and by these Bylaws. He or she shall mail to all Directors within thirty (30) days after each meeting copies of all said actions and minutes of said proceedings. In addition, the Secretary shall have general charge of the corporate books and records and of the corporate seal, and he or she shall affix, or attest the affixing of, the corporate seal to any lawfully executed instrument requiring it. The Secretary shall have general charge of the membership records of the Corporation and shall keep, at the principal office of the Corporation, a record of the Members showing the name, address, telephone number, facsimile number and electronic mail address of each Member. The Secretary shall sign such instruments as may require his or her signature and, in general, shall perform all duties as may be assigned to him or her from time to time by the Chair, the Executive Director or the Board of Directors.
  495. ralphm Note the part on 'corporate books and records'
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  497. Guus Let's aim to have a mission statement / member list ready for next week, so that we can procedurally establish the team.
  498. ralphm But of course we should ask Alex how he can help us on this
  499. ralphm seems reasonable
  500. ralphm Ok then, I guess we should move on to the other part
  501. ralphm 4. GDPR XEP
  502. Guus (I don't have much more time to spend today)
  503. ralphm Oh, it is that time already.
  504. Guus as for the XEP: what are downsides of publishing such a XEP?
  505. ralphm Well, in principle it is unclear if the XSF should publish a specification that would give guidelines in direct relation to the GDPR
  506. ralphm I'm not familiar with US law, but the concept of Legal Advise is a apparently a Thing
  507. ralphm Advice even
  508. Guus what is "giving legal advice" ? Does publishing that XEP qualify?
  509. ralphm Well, in the state that it was in last week, there wasn't much in there yet
  510. ralphm I haven't checked since
  511. MattJ It's a combination of factors - for example, in some places you need to be licensed to practice law
  512. ralphm But I think it is more important for any such document to provide general guidelines in terms of knowing what you process and what things to take into account to ensure privacy for your service, and leave the rest up to people who Know Things (typically lawyers) for actual compliance
  513. MattJ It's a stretch, but if it was taken as the XSF is giving legal advice without being qualified to do so, that's illegal in those $some_places
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  515. Guus My perspective is that I'd prefer to help the XMPP community by providing information, as long as a) we're not opening ourselves up to liability, and b) we can somehow be reasonably certain that we're not spreading misinformation.
  516. MattJ and separate from this issue, but similar - someone could try to blame the XSF if they followed published advice but got fined under GDPR
  517. Guus There's a huge gap between practice law and give information
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  519. ralphm Right, so as Peter has suggested, and I agree with, I'd like any such document to be actual best practices, not related to any particular legislation
  520. Guus that's reasonable
  521. MattJ Me too
  522. Guus ok, I need to be going now
  523. Guus can we pick this up next week?
  524. ralphm Sure
  525. ralphm 4. Date of Next
  526. ralphm +1W
  527. ralphm 5. Close
  528. ralphm Thanks all.
  529. ralphm bangs gavel
  530. MattJ Thanks
  531. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  532. ralphm set the topic to XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  533. Guus woah, I alt-tabbed for two seconds 🙂
  534. Guus thank you 🙂
  535. ralphm
  536. ralphm Also, I'm sure I used 4 two times, so whoever is making the Minutes (*wink*) should take that into account
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  592. goffi would not it be possible for the XSF to hire some legal advisor to create a document? I mean this is expensive for a single project, but if XSF is hiring one describing general helping document, we could do some kind of crowdfunding among XMPP community. Maybe FSF have some helpful contacts
  593. goffi
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  605. flow I'm pretty sure I've asked years ago on standards@ if an IQ send to the own bare JID is semantically equivalent to the same stanza without a 'to' attribute, but my google-fu is not strong enough to find that thread again
  606. Kev The answer is "yes". Also "no".
  607. Kev It is the same, except that there's some odd text still lying around that hints otherwise, like that roster queries must be no-JID (rather than bare-JID), maybe?
  608. flow I feared that this was the conclusion back then
  609. Zash Can we have that odd text accidentally dropped down a well?
  610. flow would a MAM IQ to the own bare JID be equal to the same query without to attribute?
  611. Kev flow: Yes.
  612. flow *without 'to' attribute
  613. MattJ As far as I'm concerned, and Prosody is concerned, yes
  614. Zash Prosody treats to=own bare jid identical to missing to
  615. daniel Can we just get rid of missing to and missing froms
  616. Zash In fact, it removes the 'to' and uses its absense for security related things
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  618. Zash daniel: make them mandatory always, like on s2s?
  619. flow Zash, interesting, care to elaborate on these "security related things" that you get when you handle stanzas without 'to'?
  620. MattJ daniel, in a way I prefer it, you know this stanza isn't going anywhere
  621. daniel Zash: yes. If you want to send something to your account you have to address it
  622. daniel And vice versa
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  624. MattJ flow, these stanzas are typically special in most XEPs (from user to their own account), they are privileged and Prosody handles them separately from normal stanzas that are to be routed
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  629. Zash daniel: I want the opposite
  630. MattJ and we normalize the to/from to 'missing to' so that there can't be any JID normalization accidents in modules
  631. Zash And then it bites Ge0rG right in the carbons
  632. daniel MattJ: but if you address your server the stanza isn't going anywhere either...
  633. daniel For some definition of not going anywhere
  634. Kev MattJ: Do you do some sort of NAT to get the right address injected when you reply then?
  635. Kev Because replying to a to=bare stanza with missing to isn't ok.
  636. MattJ Kev, 'from' is always set, and that's what we reply to
  637. MattJ and 'to' is not needed on c2s streams
  638. Kev Because replying to a to=bare stanza with missing from isn't ok.
  639. Zash to and from should default to the entities on each end of c2s streams, ie the client and their account
  640. MattJ Obviously from and to are swapped in any reply
  641. Kev One has to be fairly careful when claiming anything is obvious, when talking about this ;)
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  644. jonasw Kev, why is it not ok? missing from is identical to comes from bare jid, isn’t it?
  645. Zash client sending <message> == <message from=ownfulljid to=ownbare>
  646. jonasw (missing from when server sends)
  647. jonasw oh okay, MUST include the from attribute
  648. jonasw I am /pretty/ sure that I’ve seen servers which do not do that.
  649. jonasw I have ugly workarounds for that
  650. jonasw ah, no I am at the wrong place in the text
  651. Zash Whowhere?
  652. jonasw 3. When the server generates a stanza from the server for delivery to the client on behalf of the account of the connected client (e.g., in the context of data storage services provided by the server on behalf of the client), the stanza MUST either (a) not include a 'from' attribute or (b) include a 'from' attribute whose value is the account's bare JID (<localpart@domainpart>).
  653. jonasw Kev, so, there’s no NAT needed, just don’t emit the @from in the reply ^
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  655. daniel Zash: hoover?
  656. Kev jonasw: Yes, but if it's a reply to a stanza the client sent, the server must swap the to/from.
  657. Zash 🕴
  658. Kev You can't, as a server, receive a stanza that is to=bare JID, and reply with no from.
  659. MattJ Kev, says?
  660. Zash The holy text.
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  662. Kev MattJ: 6120, somewhere.
  663. Kev e.g. for error stanzas "The error stanza SHOULD simply swap the 'from' and 'to' addresses from the generated stanza"
  664. MattJ That's a stretch to say it applies to all stanzas, as you're saying
  665. Kev Yes, that was just the quickest thing to find.
  666. MattJ I think the text jonasw pasted is pretty clear that the server has two valid options
  667. Kev Yes, but not clear that both are always right.
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  669. MattJ Then that text might as well be removed, and let the text you remember specify what the 'from' should be
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  671. jonasw Kev, ok, then I found a server with a bug.
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  673. jonasw because that’s why I needed workarounds (because servers did exactly that)
  674. jonasw ah, well
  675. jonasw if the swap is only a SHOULD, I can see this to be an exception
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  677. Kev I can't find the odd text about rosters now on a quick search either, so there's clearly text I'm failing to find.
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  681. Kev jonasw: We have handling too, in https://github.com/swift/swift/blob/master/Swiften/Queries/Request.cpp#L79
  682. Kev (In fact, we have further workarounds for ejabberd issues where they used to reply with full JIDs)
  683. jonasw oh yes
  684. jonasw I love those
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  714. koyu hey, i just setup my own xmpp server
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  716. Kev Welcome to the cool club. Or something.
  717. MattJ :)
  718. koyu yeah, i just can't get omemo to work on ejabberd
  719. Wiktor As far as I remember omemo is disabled by default in ejabberd, but you may check in ejabberd room
  720. Wiktor xmpp:ejabberd@conference.process-one.net?join
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  749. jonasw Ge0rG, chat.yax.im down?
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  765. Ge0rG jonasw: works for me
  766. jonasw yeah, it just had a few minutes of hangup
  767. jonasw 17:04:14 <--- You (jonasw) left the room (the MUC server is not responding) 17:07:17 ---> You (jonasw) joined the room
  768. jonasw (or maybe it was just the link between us. who knows)
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  866. MattJ So MIX proxy JIDs... if someone creates a MIX channel that is <1023 bytes>@mix.example.com... what happens to the userid part?
  867. jonasw "boom"
  868. jonasw I imagine servers simply wouldn’t allow that
  869. MattJ So how long is the generated id?
  870. jonasw probably service-defined
  871. MattJ It's such a hack
  872. jonasw do you have a better suggestion?
  873. MattJ Well instead of overloading what should be an opaque identifier why not re-use a mechanism that is already in the protocol as a secondary identifier behind bare JIDs?
  874. rtq3 has joined
  875. jonasw because that leads to the same situation
  876. jonasw just in a different part and with different moving parts
  877. jonasw with Kevs variant (1), the multiple pieces are in the nodepart, with variant (2) the multiple pieces are in the resource
  878. jonasw so both are bad w.r.t. that
  879. jonasw one way out of that would be to use $service-wide-user-id@$service-domain/$resource instead (so the MIX identifier wouldn’t be part of the node at all). but that requires to have the JID of the MIX inside the relevant stanzas
  880. MattJ All existing routing, libraries and... everything already knows how to correctly split a JID
  881. jonasw true
  882. jonasw and I think that the semantics assumed with "bare JID" work better with variant (1) than with variant (2)
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  884. MattJ Trust me, someone will want to implement some higher-level logic to know which messages are associated with a MIX channel
  885. MattJ Except with variant (1) you can't really do that
  886. MattJ You have to know it *is* a MIX channel, and that you have to strip the bit before the #
  887. MattJ Block a MIX channel? Ok, but messages from participants would still reach you
  888. jonasw and other people want to have high-level logic to konw which messages are associated with a MIX channel occupant.
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  890. MattJ any kind of filtering or logic based on the channel JID now almost always will need to be adapted to look for the # part
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  892. jonasw we should’ve followed email and allowed multiple @s in addresses
  893. MattJ Yes, that would really have helped... :)
  894. MattJ so now nobody knows what an email address actually is, but everyone has their own idea that's good enough for them
  895. MattJ Pretty much what's going on here, to be honest :)
  896. MattJ The # is the extra @ to the entities that can see it
  897. MattJ To the others, it's not and it's weird
  898. jonasw the variant (2) would make things worse than MUC actually
  899. MattJ Can you (or someone) lay down the reasons for that?
  900. jonasw didn’t I?
  901. jjrh has left
  902. MattJ I didn't see if you did, /me checks
  903. jonasw but the point which I just realized is, that with variant (2), there’s no single JID which will ever occur in a message identifies an occupant
  904. jonasw so if you wanted to filter all messages from an occupant, you’d have to know that they’re MIX messages
  905. jonasw to split them correctly
  906. jonasw kinda the same issue you describe with MIX channels in variant (1)
  907. MattJ Hmm, what do you mean?
  908. jonasw for example, presence
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  910. jonasw and avatar hashes
  911. jonasw I keep those in a cache, usually keyed by the bare JID
  912. jonasw which I can’t do for MUC, I have to use the full JID, but that’s okay
  913. jonasw (I actually have to break layers to detect that a presence is MUC related at that point)
  914. jonasw now with MIX, it’s worse, because not only do I have to check that it’s MIX-related, I also have to use a non-RFC6122 splitting function on the JID to determine the cache key
  915. jonasw i.e. do determine the identity this JID belongs to
  916. jonasw really, the same thing you described earlier, just with occupants instead of channels
  917. MattJ Right
  918. jonasw I think your issue is more server-side and my issue is more client-side, actually, and that might be why we see them strongly each
  919. jonasw (clients may be more interested in occupant identities, while servers may be more interested in channel identities because that’s the granularity they work on)
  920. MattJ So how do you know it's a MIX message and you need to split the nodepart? Payload?
  921. jonasw yes
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  923. jonasw Strawman proposal: - proxy JID does not contain the MIX channel, but only the proxy identifier in the nodepart - resource as usual - MIX channel is identified in payload, e.g. <message from="ac2c37a7-10a6-4cd7-a708-4973d5d365f8@mixservice.domain.example" to="user@other.example" type="groupchat"><mix channel="..."/></message>
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  926. jonasw Strawman proposal: - proxy JID does not contain the MIX channel, but only the proxy identifier in the nodepart - resource as usual - MIX channel is identified in payload, e.g. <message from="ac2c37a7-10a6-4cd7-a708-4973d5d365f8@mixservice.domain.example/client-resource" to="user@other.example" type="groupchat"><mix channel="..."/></message>
  927. MattJ Heh, part of me wants to dislike that, but I prefer it
  928. MattJ I feel like the security aspects need to be investigated here though
  929. jonasw that’s not how straw-mans are supposed to work
  930. jonasw which part exactly?
  931. MattJ Well you need to verify the service in every case, I think
  932. jonasw what do you mean exactly?
  933. MattJ Otherwise I register mattj#rocks@jabber.org and send you a message wih a MIX payload
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  935. jonasw and then?
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  937. MattJ Don't know, currently I got as far as "your client breaks"
  938. jonasw the client or server would drop it because it doesn’t know about a MIX rocks@jabber.org
  939. jonasw just like we currently drop type="groupchat" from MUCs we don’t know.
  940. MattJ Right, the whole "participant's server needs to know MIX" thing
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  942. jonasw at least we’re honest about it this time (not with MUC, where servers were blindsided by interesting interaction sideeffects e.g. when changing nicknames)
  943. jonasw at least we’re honest about it this time (not like with MUC, where servers were blindsided by interesting interaction sideeffects e.g. when changing nicknames)
  944. MattJ I like your straw-man because it opens up the possibility for a user on a MIX service to have a stable JID across multiple channels
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  946. jonasw I’m not sure that’s a good thing
  947. jonasw but mmm, it could be
  948. jonasw it makes it more difficult for MIX services though
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  951. MattJ How so?
  952. jonasw when I send a message to ac2c37a7-10a6-4cd7-a708-4973d5d365f8@mixservice.domain.example, they need to verify that I share a channel with them
  953. jonasw (or may need to, depending on the service policies; but I assume that this is how most services will want to operate)
  954. jonasw hm, or we require <mix channel="…"/> elements even in non-groupchat messages
  955. jonasw then the sender would assert through which channel this message shall be "tunneled" and the server would not have to form the intersection of both channel lists
  956. jonasw question is whether that’s reasonable
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  958. MattJ Totally if you ask me
  959. jonasw so I’ll post that to the list now
  960. MattJ Variant 3! Thanks :)
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  967. jonasw Advantages: - No re-write of resources - Bare JID refers to occupant identity (good for clients) - Servers can simply filter on message/mix@channel - Opens up the possibility of re-using the same proxy JID for the same occupant across different channels (may be useful in some deployments, via MattJ) Disadvantages: - All (including 1:1) stanzas exchanged between occupants require the <mix channel="…"/> element for MIX channels to be able to easily route them - Entities filtering on MIX channel identity still need to know about MIX (and the <mix channel="…"/> element)
  968. jonasw did I miss something?
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  972. jonasw sent
  973. MattJ Sorry, lgtm
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  986. Kev I'll reply properly onlist in the morning, but now you need to do DPI to be able to routing in your client, because the routing information is no longer in the header? That's terribly unpleasant.
  987. Kev I'll reply properly onlist in the morning, but now you need to do DPI to be able to do routing in your client, because the routing information is no longer in the header? That's terribly unpleasant.
  988. Kev i.e. I think option 3 is the worst of the three.
  989. Kev (And possibly worse, your server needs to be doing DPI in order to make archiving work)
  990. jonasw Kev, don’t you need to do DPI anyways because you need to be sure you’re looking at a MIX message?
  991. jonasw (otherwise, the "MIX JID splitting function" (whatever that is) would operate on non MIX JIDs and possibly yield wrong results)
  992. Kev No, you don't :)
  993. jonasw servers need to do DPI anyways today for archiving to work.
  994. Kev Not at this level.
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  996. jonasw normally, type="groupchat" isn’t archived at all, right?
  997. Kev That obviously has to change.
  998. jonasw for MIX, yes
  999. Kev type=groupchat to the bare JID gets archived.
  1000. Kev (Once routing/archiving rules are fixed)
  1001. jonasw right
  1002. jonasw that would work
  1003. Kev I have to sort out bins and then go to bed, but I think option 3 has worse issues than the conflation in option 1/2.
  1004. jonasw looking forward to your reply
  1005. jonasw and the discussion :)
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