XSF Discussion - 2018-06-04

  1. Ge0rG

    Dear XSF. We should write a blog post about how XMPP is the right solution to what's asked for by German Minsiter of Justice Katarina Barley regarding the opening of WhatsApp and other messengers.

  2. Ge0rG

    I'd volunteer the text, but who's the right person to approve that? comms team?

  3. jonasw

    Ge0rG, write the blogpost

  4. jonasw

    comms and possibly board

  5. Ge0rG

    "possibly board" frightens me.

  6. Ge0rG

    I wouldn't be surprised if Board would decide that we can not promote XMPP because that wouldn't be neutral against other open IM protocols like SIP and Matrix.

  7. jonasw

    come on

  8. MattJ

    Ge0rG, I can't tell if you're just saying things like that to be provocative, or whether you really believe them. In either case I think it's sad

  9. Zash


  10. MattJ

    I know you want the same thing as I do, and I am also sad Pidgin is listed, but there is still no proposal as to any criteria by which it should be removed

  11. MattJ

    I explicitly included a question about implementation neutrality in the members survey to try and resolve this kind of issue as well

  12. MattJ

    It will be one of the things we talk about in the next board meeting probably, but at a glance opinion is very divided, no clear consensus

  13. jonasw

    classic :)

  14. MattJ

    I believe, as others have concluded also, that the XSF is simply not the right vehicle for promoting XMPP to end users

  15. Wiktor

    Just out of curiosity, what is/would be the right vehicle?

  16. MattJ

    Anything from a group of like-minded people with free time, to a completely new foundation

  17. MattJ

    I have some stuff I have been working on, which I gave a talk about at FOSDEM a few years ago

  18. Ge0rG

    Wiktor: we need a Jabber Software Foundation

  19. Wiktor

    Yes, but with s/Jabber/XMPP/... ;)

  20. MattJ

    s/Jabber/Brand name without trademark/

  21. Ge0rG

    except that "we" can't even decide whether "Jabber™" is burned due to a huge trademark minefield, or still the right term

  22. Wiktor

    Remember to use "Open", something like "Open Communications Alliance"

  23. Ge0rG

    Wiktor: "Jabber" is to "XMPP" what "Email" is to "SMTP+IMAP"

  24. Ge0rG

    "Open" is so f***ing burned.

  25. Wiktor

    I didn't know email was a registered trademark :(

  26. Wiktor

    maybe jabber got so popular that the trademark would not hold... but I don't want to be the one to check it out :)

  27. Ge0rG

    Wiktor: do you have better suggestions for a word that's assosicated with a worldwide federated IM network?

  28. jonasw

    Whats… oh you said federated

  29. Zash

    Steal "Fediverse"

  30. Wiktor

    Fediverse still has some sub-terms, like ActivityPub (protocol), Mastodon (product)

  31. Ge0rG

    Fediverse. I've heard that once or twice before.

  32. Seve/SouL

    Universal Chat

  33. Seve/SouL


  34. Seve/SouL shurgs

  35. Ge0rG

    It's got like zero percent of brand awareness of XMPP.

  36. Wiktor

    Ge0rG, are you targetting people aware of XMPP or a broader audience?

  37. jonasw

    people aware of jabber

  38. Ge0rG

    I claim that sufficiently many people are aware of Jabber that we should get our in-house trademark fight solved and promote the term properly.

  39. MattJ

    Ge0rG, so the solutions I see to that are 1) ignore it 2) ask Cisco to make it all ok [2a) have Cisco actually make it all ok]

  40. Wiktor

    Okay, personally I don't know any person that knows jabber but doesn't know xmpp, but maybe it doesn't hold "in the wild"

  41. Ge0rG

    MattJ: ignore what?

  42. MattJ

    That there is any trademark issue

  43. MattJ

    That's pretty much what everyone has done so far

  44. Seve/SouL

    Wiktor, and who knows about jabber just says 'oh, I remember, something old'

  45. Link Mauve

    Wiktor, at least here in France, and I’ve heard in Russia too, when you go around people are talking about Jabber.

  46. MattJ


  47. MattJ

    and people who know about XMPP tend to write Jabber/XMPP anyway

  48. Link Mauve


  49. Link Mauve

    Or even just Jabber.

  50. Wiktor

    Yep, jabber is tainted with "old" and "doesn't work on mobile" in my experience :)

  51. jonasw

    Seve/SouL, when they say that, reply with "Great, something to wear at your wedding then!" and hand them a Jabber sticker

  52. Zash


  53. Wiktor

    One way or another this foundation to promote xmpp sounds like a really good idea, 👍

  54. Wiktor

    zimpy the zebra?

  55. Ge0rG

    MattJ: reading "Jabber/XMPP" hurts my eyes. every. single. time.

  56. Zash

    Ge0rG: Like GNU+Linux ?

  57. jonasw

    Ge0rG, make issues which are the opposite of what one other person is doing at the moment! https://github.com/jabbercat/jabbercat/issues/89

  58. Ge0rG

    jonasw: what? Me? Feeding the trolls?

  59. pep.

    "random> so is XMPP moving to GitLab?"

  60. Seve/SouL


  61. Zash

    Why not go back to Mercurial? ;)

  62. jonasw


  63. Seve/SouL

    I was looking to mve to another apartment, I may move to GitLab as well

  64. pep.

    Seve/SouL, good idea

  65. jonasw

    if I apply that line of thought, I need $7.5e9 now.

  66. rion

    don't go to gitlab. otherwise MS will buy it!

  67. jonasw

    go to gitlab, everyone go to gitlab, and look how MS bites it’s own shiny metal thing when all the interesting stuff is gone from GitHub :)

  68. Zash

    Random post on the fediverse said Google was a huge investor in Gitlab already

  69. Ge0rG

    Let's switch to self-hosted Gogs on Azure cloud instead.

  70. jonasw


  71. Zash


  72. Ge0rG


  73. Ge0rG

    Let's do our own distributed code thing based on XMPP.

  74. jonasw

    kallithea is ugly

  75. Ge0rG

    And call it... WAVE

  76. Zash

    Ge0rG: PubSub! All the things!

  77. jonasw

    why the heck do code web view things think that the most interesting thing is the commit history?

  78. jonasw

    even years after github figured out that this is /not/ the case

  79. Ge0rG

    jonasw: the commit history is the whole pride of the developer!

  80. Kev

    jonasw: I think it depends who's viewing, actually.

  81. Kev

    But defaulting to code seems sensible to me.

  82. jonasw

    I’ve only a few times seen myself to check the commit history of a project on GitHub. And tohse times it wasn’t useful because I couldn’t skip to the point where I wanted to look. But that might just be me.

  83. Ge0rG

    I'd say the README is more important

  84. Ge0rG

    README and how old the code is

  85. jonasw

    github does it right imo

  86. Kev

    I think github does it right for github, yes.

  87. Kev

    But for our internal tools I look at commit histories of the repo more often than I look at the code through the web interface, I think.

  88. Kev

    Maybe I'm wrong about my habits.

  89. Ge0rG

    maybe you can bookmark the /commits path then ;)

  90. jonasw

    you’re not wrong about your habits :)

  91. jonasw

    it may be useful for internal (but even in our internal gitlab I mostly look at files, not commit history; I typically have a clone already when I need commit history and look localy then)

  92. Kev

    But you don't look at the local copy for files? :)

  93. Kev

    Anyway, I think the github model is right for github at least.

  94. jonasw

    Kev, most of the time I need to link something to someone

  95. Kev


  96. Kev

    Yes, I use that for that :)

  97. jonasw

    or go for a quick reference in code which I don’t have cloned

  98. pep.

    > Ge0rG> Let's do our own distributed code thing based on XMPP. You might be joking, but sàt actually has an issue tracker already

  99. vanitasvitae

    They also do PRs right?

  100. Ge0rG

    pep.: I'm only half-joking.

  101. pep.

    vanitasvitae, I think so yes

  102. pep.

    goffi ^

  103. Ge0rG

    pep.: I'm well aware that the tech can be used for it. Unfortunately, we lack a dedicated developer team and something like 5M USD.

  104. pep.


  105. pep.

    Just like GitLab is talking about using ActivityPub for the federated thing and not xmpp

  106. jonasw

    buy microsoft shares

  107. Ge0rG

    Like... you know... we lack for IM over XMPP

  108. pep.

    Ge0rG, that'd be good to have indeed

  109. edhelas

    pep. yes ActivityPub is taking over a lot of platforms

  110. edhelas

    what I think is missing is that XMPP is not "showing" things

  111. pep.


  112. pep.

    You mean marketing?

  113. edhelas

    it's good we have Pubsub for 10 years, do you see any serious projects that is using it at the moment ?

  114. edhelas

    no, not marketing, just build stuff on it

  115. edhelas

    and also integrate it in existing projects

  116. Kev

    I know of very serious projects built on pubsub, yes.

  117. pep.

    Kev, do you have examples?

  118. pep.

    public examples

  119. Kev

    No, not that are for me to share.

  120. pep.


  121. pep.

    Well that's not really helping the case

  122. edhelas

    this for example https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0070.html, it's a really nice XEP, let's integrate XMPP auth in Gitlab, Wikipedia…

  123. pep.

    edhelas, sure, go go send PRs

  124. goffi

    pep.: Ge0rG: I'm indeed working on forge tools, mainly for our own needs, but with some helping hand it could become nice ==> https://www.goffi.org/b/9555cc02-6a87-4b6b-af85-20f1c0736722

  125. goffi

    edhelas: are you kidding ? I'm pushing for years for XEP-0070 and other stuff, and some people have followed (Chteufleur wrote his component after talking about XEP-0070 on DLFP, jnanar followed moment after with a demo website), but not enough. And yes ActivityPub is taking over where XMPP should have been.

  126. goffi

    years before Jehan also wrote a Wordpress plugin to use XEP-0070, but once again nobody followed

  127. goffi

    and that's the same story for nearly every feature of XMPP

  128. edhelas

    goffi that's what I said, there is some nice little projects, but it's hard to get traction

  129. MattJ

    XMPP adoption is not a problem that can be solved just by writing more code

  130. goffi

    MattJ: it's a combination of code, communication and luck

  131. daniel

    And concentrated power of will

  132. goffi

    MattJ: and something like XEP-0070 is super easy to integrate everywhere with Chteufleur component, and that's a good way to popularise XMPP IMHO.

  133. Seve/SouL

    goffi: +9999

  134. pep.

    daniel, I'm trying hard

  135. goffi

    There is a popular video showing comments post on Peertube and appearing in Mastodon, and everybody is amazed. That's something we do for many years between Movim and SàT (and Jappix when it was still in the game). It's a pitty to see that, but we have missed a great occasion, and now we'll have to deal with activityPub.

  136. pep.


  137. Zash

    Marketing marketing marketing

  138. MattJ

    goffi, well, Prosody has had a Pubsubhubbub bridge for a long long time, so there's no strict reason that the two protocols can't co-exist

  139. Zash

    MattJ: ActivityPub is completely different tho

  140. goffi

    MattJ: sure they can co-exist, but we have to do gateways, it's time to develop, energy to maintain, and machine resources to do the protocol conversion

  141. Wiktor

    note that ActivityPub is dead simple, it's specially formatted JSON and signed http messages

  142. Zash

    With an actor model and inboxes and whatnot.

  143. goffi

    well XMPP is specially formatted XML

  144. Wiktor

    inbox is just an endpoint that receives JSONs, "actor model" is another JSON with your name

  145. Zash

    OStatus is Atom feeds

  146. Zash

    Plain simple Atom feeds. Throw in some extra metadata. Be happy.

  147. Wiktor

    pff atom feeds, why all these brackets, twtxt is plain text files! https://rosaelefanten.org/twtxt.txt

  148. Wiktor


  149. Wiktor

    doesn't OStatus use PubSubHubbub?

  150. Zash


  151. Wiktor

    soo... it would be "easy" to roll an OStatus endpoint using Prosody sprinkled with some community modules?

  152. Zash

    Wiktor: Yes. I had federation with GNU Social working a long time ago.

  153. Zash

    Salmon is where it gets complicated.

  154. Zash

    I'm assuming that "signed http messages" is on the same level.

  155. Wiktor

    well actually activitypub has two levels of signing, signed http requests are mandatory by Mastodon, they are quite easy but there is another thing, signed JSON messages, that is... mess... converting JSON into RDF and ordering that (canonicalization) and then signing, fortunately it's not required now

  156. Wiktor

    it's funny, all these protocols are just juggling with how to pass the same basic data, and struggling with some basic security (does message X come from Y)

  157. Zash

    You've convinced me. I won't be looking at ActivityPub anymore. Thanks for sparing me that madness.

  158. Zash

    Wiktor: The funny thing is that XMPP (or even email) has all those problems solved since literally forever.

  159. MattJ

    But can you run it on a shared web host?

  160. MattJ

    Oh wait, you can it seems

  161. Zash

    And the authentication part of PubSubHubbub is basically Dialback over HTTP

  162. Zash

    MattJ: "it"

  163. Wiktor

    I know Zash, I've been reading XMPP RFCs and XEPs since 15 years ago or so, but since then I'm more reserved

  164. Wiktor

    they could at least reuse the xmpp s2s idea of client certs, that's simpler than these crypto-security-dialbacks (also present in ActivityPub)

  165. MattJ

    Zash: The implementation OStatus was born from had the explicit goal of being in PHP and not requiring long lived processes

  166. MattJ

    Which meant no XMPP, except then it did

  167. Zash

    MattJ: Ah. But it doesn't even require that. You can make do with a static atom XML.

  168. Zash

    MattJ: Ah. But it doesn't even require that. You can make do with a static atom XML file.

  169. goffi

    Oh PubsubHubHub has been renamed, didn't knew that

  170. goffi


  171. MattJ