XSF Discussion - 2018-06-04

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  342. Ge0rG Dear XSF. We should write a blog post about how XMPP is the right solution to what's asked for by German Minsiter of Justice Katarina Barley regarding the opening of WhatsApp and other messengers.
  343. Ge0rG I'd volunteer the text, but who's the right person to approve that? comms team?
  344. jonasw Ge0rG, write the blogpost
  345. jonasw comms and possibly board
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  348. Ge0rG "possibly board" frightens me.
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  350. Ge0rG I wouldn't be surprised if Board would decide that we can not promote XMPP because that wouldn't be neutral against other open IM protocols like SIP and Matrix.
  351. jonasw come on
  352. MattJ Ge0rG, I can't tell if you're just saying things like that to be provocative, or whether you really believe them. In either case I think it's sad
  353. Zash Haha
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  355. MattJ I know you want the same thing as I do, and I am also sad Pidgin is listed, but there is still no proposal as to any criteria by which it should be removed
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  357. MattJ I explicitly included a question about implementation neutrality in the members survey to try and resolve this kind of issue as well
  358. MattJ It will be one of the things we talk about in the next board meeting probably, but at a glance opinion is very divided, no clear consensus
  359. jonasw classic :)
  360. MattJ I believe, as others have concluded also, that the XSF is simply not the right vehicle for promoting XMPP to end users
  361. Wiktor Just out of curiosity, what is/would be the right vehicle?
  362. MattJ Anything from a group of like-minded people with free time, to a completely new foundation
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  364. MattJ I have some stuff I have been working on, which I gave a talk about at FOSDEM a few years ago
  365. Ge0rG Wiktor: we need a Jabber Software Foundation
  366. Wiktor Yes, but with s/Jabber/XMPP/... ;)
  367. MattJ s/Jabber/Brand name without trademark/
  368. Ge0rG except that "we" can't even decide whether "Jabber™" is burned due to a huge trademark minefield, or still the right term
  369. Wiktor Remember to use "Open", something like "Open Communications Alliance"
  370. Ge0rG Wiktor: "Jabber" is to "XMPP" what "Email" is to "SMTP+IMAP"
  371. Ge0rG "Open" is so f***ing burned.
  372. Wiktor I didn't know email was a registered trademark :(
  373. Wiktor maybe jabber got so popular that the trademark would not hold... but I don't want to be the one to check it out :)
  374. Ge0rG Wiktor: do you have better suggestions for a word that's assosicated with a worldwide federated IM network?
  375. jonasw Whats… oh you said federated
  376. Zash Steal "Fediverse"
  377. Wiktor Fediverse still has some sub-terms, like ActivityPub (protocol), Mastodon (product)
  378. Ge0rG Fediverse. I've heard that once or twice before.
  379. Seve/SouL Universal Chat
  380. Seve/SouL UChat
  381. Seve/SouL shurgs
  382. Ge0rG It's got like zero percent of brand awareness of XMPP.
  383. Wiktor Ge0rG, are you targetting people aware of XMPP or a broader audience?
  384. jonasw people aware of jabber
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  386. Ge0rG I claim that sufficiently many people are aware of Jabber that we should get our in-house trademark fight solved and promote the term properly.
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  389. MattJ Ge0rG, so the solutions I see to that are 1) ignore it 2) ask Cisco to make it all ok [2a) have Cisco actually make it all ok]
  390. Wiktor Okay, personally I don't know any person that knows jabber but doesn't know xmpp, but maybe it doesn't hold "in the wild"
  391. Ge0rG MattJ: ignore what?
  392. MattJ That there is any trademark issue
  393. MattJ That's pretty much what everyone has done so far
  394. Seve/SouL Wiktor, and who knows about jabber just says 'oh, I remember, something old'
  395. Link Mauve Wiktor, at least here in France, and I’ve heard in Russia too, when you go around people are talking about Jabber.
  396. MattJ Indeed
  397. MattJ and people who know about XMPP tend to write Jabber/XMPP anyway
  398. Link Mauve Yeah.
  399. Link Mauve Or even just Jabber.
  400. Wiktor Yep, jabber is tainted with "old" and "doesn't work on mobile" in my experience :)
  401. jonasw Seve/SouL, when they say that, reply with "Great, something to wear at your wedding then!" and hand them a Jabber sticker
  402. Zash ZIMPY!!
  403. Wiktor One way or another this foundation to promote xmpp sounds like a really good idea, 👍
  404. Wiktor zimpy the zebra?
  405. Ge0rG MattJ: reading "Jabber/XMPP" hurts my eyes. every. single. time.
  406. Zash Ge0rG: Like GNU+Linux ?
  407. jonasw Ge0rG, make issues which are the opposite of what one other person is doing at the moment! https://github.com/jabbercat/jabbercat/issues/89
  408. Ge0rG jonasw: what? Me? Feeding the trolls?
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  516. pep. "random> so is XMPP moving to GitLab?"
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  518. Seve/SouL Hahaha
  519. Zash Why not go back to Mercurial? ;)
  520. jonasw "back"?
  521. Seve/SouL I was looking to mve to another apartment, I may move to GitLab as well
  522. pep. Seve/SouL, good idea
  523. jonasw if I apply that line of thought, I need $7.5e9 now.
  524. rion don't go to gitlab. otherwise MS will buy it!
  525. jonasw go to gitlab, everyone go to gitlab, and look how MS bites it’s own shiny metal thing when all the interesting stuff is gone from GitHub :)
  526. Zash Random post on the fediverse said Google was a huge investor in Gitlab already
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  528. Ge0rG Let's switch to self-hosted Gogs on Azure cloud instead.
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  530. jonasw s/Gogs/Gitea/
  531. Zash Kallithea?
  532. Ge0rG Whatever.
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  534. Ge0rG Let's do our own distributed code thing based on XMPP.
  535. jonasw kallithea is ugly
  536. Ge0rG And call it... WAVE
  537. Zash Ge0rG: PubSub! All the things!
  538. jonasw why the heck do code web view things think that the most interesting thing is the commit history?
  539. jonasw even years after github figured out that this is /not/ the case
  540. Ge0rG jonasw: the commit history is the whole pride of the developer!
  541. Kev jonasw: I think it depends who's viewing, actually.
  542. Kev But defaulting to code seems sensible to me.
  543. jonasw I’ve only a few times seen myself to check the commit history of a project on GitHub. And tohse times it wasn’t useful because I couldn’t skip to the point where I wanted to look. But that might just be me.
  544. Ge0rG I'd say the README is more important
  545. Ge0rG README and how old the code is
  546. jonasw github does it right imo
  547. Kev I think github does it right for github, yes.
  548. Kev But for our internal tools I look at commit histories of the repo more often than I look at the code through the web interface, I think.
  549. Kev Maybe I'm wrong about my habits.
  550. Ge0rG maybe you can bookmark the /commits path then ;)
  551. jonasw you’re not wrong about your habits :)
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  553. jonasw it may be useful for internal (but even in our internal gitlab I mostly look at files, not commit history; I typically have a clone already when I need commit history and look localy then)
  554. Kev But you don't look at the local copy for files? :)
  555. Kev Anyway, I think the github model is right for github at least.
  556. jonasw Kev, most of the time I need to link something to someone
  557. Kev Ah.
  558. Kev Yes, I use that for that :)
  559. jonasw or go for a quick reference in code which I don’t have cloned
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  561. pep. > Ge0rG> Let's do our own distributed code thing based on XMPP. You might be joking, but sàt actually has an issue tracker already
  562. vanitasvitae They also do PRs right?
  563. Ge0rG pep.: I'm only half-joking.
  564. pep. vanitasvitae, I think so yes
  565. pep. goffi ^
  566. Ge0rG pep.: I'm well aware that the tech can be used for it. Unfortunately, we lack a dedicated developer team and something like 5M USD.
  567. pep. yep
  568. pep. Just like GitLab is talking about using ActivityPub for the federated thing and not xmpp
  569. jonasw buy microsoft shares
  570. Ge0rG Like... you know... we lack for IM over XMPP
  571. pep. Ge0rG, that'd be good to have indeed
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  587. edhelas pep. yes ActivityPub is taking over a lot of platforms
  588. edhelas what I think is missing is that XMPP is not "showing" things
  589. pep. showing?
  590. pep. You mean marketing?
  591. edhelas it's good we have Pubsub for 10 years, do you see any serious projects that is using it at the moment ?
  592. edhelas no, not marketing, just build stuff on it
  593. edhelas and also integrate it in existing projects
  594. Kev I know of very serious projects built on pubsub, yes.
  595. pep. Kev, do you have examples?
  596. pep. public examples
  597. Kev No, not that are for me to share.
  598. pep. k
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  600. pep. Well that's not really helping the case
  601. edhelas this for example https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0070.html, it's a really nice XEP, let's integrate XMPP auth in Gitlab, Wikipedia…
  602. pep. edhelas, sure, go go send PRs
  603. goffi pep.: Ge0rG: I'm indeed working on forge tools, mainly for our own needs, but with some helping hand it could become nice ==> https://www.goffi.org/b/9555cc02-6a87-4b6b-af85-20f1c0736722
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  605. goffi edhelas: are you kidding ? I'm pushing for years for XEP-0070 and other stuff, and some people have followed (Chteufleur wrote his component after talking about XEP-0070 on DLFP, jnanar followed moment after with a demo website), but not enough. And yes ActivityPub is taking over where XMPP should have been.
  606. goffi years before Jehan also wrote a Wordpress plugin to use XEP-0070, but once again nobody followed
  607. goffi and that's the same story for nearly every feature of XMPP
  608. edhelas goffi that's what I said, there is some nice little projects, but it's hard to get traction
  609. MattJ XMPP adoption is not a problem that can be solved just by writing more code
  610. goffi MattJ: it's a combination of code, communication and luck
  611. daniel And concentrated power of will
  612. goffi MattJ: and something like XEP-0070 is super easy to integrate everywhere with Chteufleur component, and that's a good way to popularise XMPP IMHO.
  613. Seve/SouL goffi: +9999
  614. pep. daniel, I'm trying hard
  615. goffi There is a popular video showing comments post on Peertube and appearing in Mastodon, and everybody is amazed. That's something we do for many years between Movim and SàT (and Jappix when it was still in the game). It's a pitty to see that, but we have missed a great occasion, and now we'll have to deal with activityPub.
  616. pep. technology!!
  617. Zash Marketing marketing marketing
  618. MattJ goffi, well, Prosody has had a Pubsubhubbub bridge for a long long time, so there's no strict reason that the two protocols can't co-exist
  619. Zash MattJ: ActivityPub is completely different tho
  620. goffi MattJ: sure they can co-exist, but we have to do gateways, it's time to develop, energy to maintain, and machine resources to do the protocol conversion
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  738. Wiktor note that ActivityPub is dead simple, it's specially formatted JSON and signed http messages
  739. Zash With an actor model and inboxes and whatnot.
  740. goffi well XMPP is specially formatted XML
  741. Wiktor inbox is just an endpoint that receives JSONs, "actor model" is another JSON with your name
  742. Zash OStatus is Atom feeds
  743. Zash Plain simple Atom feeds. Throw in some extra metadata. Be happy.
  744. Wiktor pff atom feeds, why all these brackets, twtxt is plain text files! https://rosaelefanten.org/twtxt.txt
  745. Wiktor ;)
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  747. Wiktor doesn't OStatus use PubSubHubbub?
  748. Zash Yes
  749. Wiktor soo... it would be "easy" to roll an OStatus endpoint using Prosody sprinkled with some community modules?
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  751. Zash Wiktor: Yes. I had federation with GNU Social working a long time ago.
  752. Zash Salmon is where it gets complicated.
  753. Zash I'm assuming that "signed http messages" is on the same level.
  754. Wiktor well actually activitypub has two levels of signing, signed http requests are mandatory by Mastodon, they are quite easy but there is another thing, signed JSON messages, that is... mess... converting JSON into RDF and ordering that (canonicalization) and then signing, fortunately it's not required now
  755. Wiktor it's funny, all these protocols are just juggling with how to pass the same basic data, and struggling with some basic security (does message X come from Y)
  756. Zash You've convinced me. I won't be looking at ActivityPub anymore. Thanks for sparing me that madness.
  757. Zash Wiktor: The funny thing is that XMPP (or even email) has all those problems solved since literally forever.
  758. MattJ But can you run it on a shared web host?
  759. MattJ Oh wait, you can it seems
  760. Zash And the authentication part of PubSubHubbub is basically Dialback over HTTP
  761. Zash MattJ: "it"
  762. Wiktor I know Zash, I've been reading XMPP RFCs and XEPs since 15 years ago or so, but since then I'm more reserved
  763. Wiktor they could at least reuse the xmpp s2s idea of client certs, that's simpler than these crypto-security-dialbacks (also present in ActivityPub)
  764. MattJ Zash: The implementation OStatus was born from had the explicit goal of being in PHP and not requiring long lived processes
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  766. MattJ Which meant no XMPP, except then it did
  767. Zash MattJ: Ah. But it doesn't even require that. You can make do with a static atom XML.
  768. Zash MattJ: Ah. But it doesn't even require that. You can make do with a static atom XML file.
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  782. goffi Oh PubsubHubHub has been renamed, didn't knew that
  783. goffi WebSub
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