Ge0rGDear XSF. We should write a blog post about how XMPP is the right solution to what's asked for by German Minsiter of Justice Katarina Barley regarding the opening of WhatsApp and other messengers.
Ge0rGI'd volunteer the text, but who's the right person to approve that? comms team?
jonaswGe0rG, write the blogpost
jonaswcomms and possibly board
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Ge0rG"possibly board" frightens me.
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Ge0rGI wouldn't be surprised if Board would decide that we can not promote XMPP because that wouldn't be neutral against other open IM protocols like SIP and Matrix.
jonaswcome on
MattJGe0rG, I can't tell if you're just saying things like that to be provocative, or whether you really believe them. In either case I think it's sad
ZashHaha
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MattJI know you want the same thing as I do, and I am also sad Pidgin is listed, but there is still no proposal as to any criteria by which it should be removed
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MattJI explicitly included a question about implementation neutrality in the members survey to try and resolve this kind of issue as well
MattJIt will be one of the things we talk about in the next board meeting probably, but at a glance opinion is very divided, no clear consensus
jonaswclassic :)
MattJI believe, as others have concluded also, that the XSF is simply not the right vehicle for promoting XMPP to end users
WiktorJust out of curiosity, what is/would be the right vehicle?
MattJAnything from a group of like-minded people with free time, to a completely new foundation
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MattJI have some stuff I have been working on, which I gave a talk about at FOSDEM a few years ago
Ge0rGWiktor: we need a Jabber Software Foundation
WiktorYes, but with s/Jabber/XMPP/... ;)
MattJs/Jabber/Brand name without trademark/
Ge0rGexcept that "we" can't even decide whether "Jabber™" is burned due to a huge trademark minefield, or still the right term
WiktorRemember to use "Open", something like "Open Communications Alliance"
Ge0rGWiktor: "Jabber" is to "XMPP" what "Email" is to "SMTP+IMAP"
Ge0rG"Open" is so f***ing burned.
WiktorI didn't know email was a registered trademark :(
Wiktormaybe jabber got so popular that the trademark would not hold... but I don't want to be the one to check it out :)
Ge0rGWiktor: do you have better suggestions for a word that's assosicated with a worldwide federated IM network?
jonaswWhats… oh you said federated
ZashSteal "Fediverse"
WiktorFediverse still has some sub-terms, like ActivityPub (protocol), Mastodon (product)
Ge0rGFediverse. I've heard that once or twice before.
Seve/SouLUniversal Chat
Seve/SouLUChat
Seve/SouLshurgs
Ge0rGIt's got like zero percent of brand awareness of XMPP.
WiktorGe0rG, are you targetting people aware of XMPP or a broader audience?
jonaswpeople aware of jabber
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Ge0rGI claim that sufficiently many people are aware of Jabber that we should get our in-house trademark fight solved and promote the term properly.
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MattJGe0rG, so the solutions I see to that are 1) ignore it 2) ask Cisco to make it all ok [2a) have Cisco actually make it all ok]
WiktorOkay, personally I don't know any person that knows jabber but doesn't know xmpp, but maybe it doesn't hold "in the wild"
Ge0rGMattJ: ignore what?
MattJThat there is any trademark issue
MattJThat's pretty much what everyone has done so far
Seve/SouLWiktor, and who knows about jabber just says 'oh, I remember, something old'
Link MauveWiktor, at least here in France, and I’ve heard in Russia too, when you go around people are talking about Jabber.
MattJIndeed
MattJand people who know about XMPP tend to write Jabber/XMPP anyway
Link MauveYeah.
Link MauveOr even just Jabber.
WiktorYep, jabber is tainted with "old" and "doesn't work on mobile" in my experience :)
jonaswSeve/SouL, when they say that, reply with "Great, something to wear at your wedding then!" and hand them a Jabber sticker
ZashZIMPY!!
WiktorOne way or another this foundation to promote xmpp sounds like a really good idea, 👍
Wiktorzimpy the zebra?
Ge0rGMattJ: reading "Jabber/XMPP" hurts my eyes. every. single. time.
ZashGe0rG: Like GNU+Linux ?
jonaswGe0rG, make issues which are the opposite of what one other person is doing at the moment! https://github.com/jabbercat/jabbercat/issues/89
Ge0rGjonasw: what? Me? Feeding the trolls?
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pep."random> so is XMPP moving to GitLab?"
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Seve/SouLHahaha
ZashWhy not go back to Mercurial? ;)
jonasw"back"?
Seve/SouLI was looking to mve to another apartment, I may move to GitLab as well
pep.Seve/SouL, good idea
jonaswif I apply that line of thought, I need $7.5e9 now.
riondon't go to gitlab. otherwise MS will buy it!
jonaswgo to gitlab, everyone go to gitlab, and look how MS bites it’s own shiny metal thing when all the interesting stuff is gone from GitHub :)
ZashRandom post on the fediverse said Google was a huge investor in Gitlab already
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Ge0rGLet's switch to self-hosted Gogs on Azure cloud instead.
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jonasws/Gogs/Gitea/
ZashKallithea?
Ge0rGWhatever.
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Ge0rGLet's do our own distributed code thing based on XMPP.
jonaswkallithea is ugly
Ge0rGAnd call it... WAVE
ZashGe0rG: PubSub! All the things!
jonaswwhy the heck do code web view things think that the most interesting thing is the commit history?
jonasweven years after github figured out that this is /not/ the case
Ge0rGjonasw: the commit history is the whole pride of the developer!
Kevjonasw: I think it depends who's viewing, actually.
KevBut defaulting to code seems sensible to me.
jonaswI’ve only a few times seen myself to check the commit history of a project on GitHub. And tohse times it wasn’t useful because I couldn’t skip to the point where I wanted to look. But that might just be me.
Ge0rGI'd say the README is more important
Ge0rGREADME and how old the code is
jonaswgithub does it right imo
KevI think github does it right for github, yes.
KevBut for our internal tools I look at commit histories of the repo more often than I look at the code through the web interface, I think.
KevMaybe I'm wrong about my habits.
Ge0rGmaybe you can bookmark the /commits path then ;)
jonaswyou’re not wrong about your habits :)
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jonaswit may be useful for internal (but even in our internal gitlab I mostly look at files, not commit history; I typically have a clone already when I need commit history and look localy then)
KevBut you don't look at the local copy for files? :)
KevAnyway, I think the github model is right for github at least.
jonaswKev, most of the time I need to link something to someone
KevAh.
KevYes, I use that for that :)
jonaswor go for a quick reference in code which I don’t have cloned
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pep.> Ge0rG> Let's do our own distributed code thing based on XMPP.
You might be joking, but sàt actually has an issue tracker already
vanitasvitaeThey also do PRs right?
Ge0rGpep.: I'm only half-joking.
pep.vanitasvitae, I think so yes
pep.goffi ^
Ge0rGpep.: I'm well aware that the tech can be used for it. Unfortunately, we lack a dedicated developer team and something like 5M USD.
pep.yep
pep.Just like GitLab is talking about using ActivityPub for the federated thing and not xmpp
jonaswbuy microsoft shares
Ge0rGLike... you know... we lack for IM over XMPP
pep.Ge0rG, that'd be good to have indeed
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edhelaspep. yes ActivityPub is taking over a lot of platforms
edhelaswhat I think is missing is that XMPP is not "showing" things
pep.showing?
pep.You mean marketing?
edhelasit's good we have Pubsub for 10 years, do you see any serious projects that is using it at the moment ?
edhelasno, not marketing, just build stuff on it
edhelasand also integrate it in existing projects
KevI know of very serious projects built on pubsub, yes.
pep.Kev, do you have examples?
pep.public examples
KevNo, not that are for me to share.
pep.k
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pep.Well that's not really helping the case
edhelasthis for example https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0070.html, it's a really nice XEP, let's integrate XMPP auth in Gitlab, Wikipedia…
pep.edhelas, sure, go go send PRs
goffipep.: Ge0rG: I'm indeed working on forge tools, mainly for our own needs, but with some helping hand it could become nice ==> https://www.goffi.org/b/9555cc02-6a87-4b6b-af85-20f1c0736722
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goffiedhelas: are you kidding ? I'm pushing for years for XEP-0070 and other stuff, and some people have followed (Chteufleur wrote his component after talking about XEP-0070 on DLFP, jnanar followed moment after with a demo website), but not enough. And yes ActivityPub is taking over where XMPP should have been.
goffiyears before Jehan also wrote a Wordpress plugin to use XEP-0070, but once again nobody followed
goffiand that's the same story for nearly every feature of XMPP
edhelasgoffi that's what I said, there is some nice little projects, but it's hard to get traction
MattJXMPP adoption is not a problem that can be solved just by writing more code
goffiMattJ: it's a combination of code, communication and luck
danielAnd concentrated power of will
goffiMattJ: and something like XEP-0070 is super easy to integrate everywhere with Chteufleur component, and that's a good way to popularise XMPP IMHO.
Seve/SouLgoffi: +9999
pep.daniel, I'm trying hard
goffiThere is a popular video showing comments post on Peertube and appearing in Mastodon, and everybody is amazed. That's something we do for many years between Movim and SàT (and Jappix when it was still in the game). It's a pitty to see that, but we have missed a great occasion, and now we'll have to deal with activityPub.
pep.technology!!
ZashMarketing marketing marketing
MattJgoffi, well, Prosody has had a Pubsubhubbub bridge for a long long time, so there's no strict reason that the two protocols can't co-exist
ZashMattJ: ActivityPub is completely different tho
goffiMattJ: sure they can co-exist, but we have to do gateways, it's time to develop, energy to maintain, and machine resources to do the protocol conversion
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Wiktornote that ActivityPub is dead simple, it's specially formatted JSON and signed http messages
ZashWith an actor model and inboxes and whatnot.
goffiwell XMPP is specially formatted XML
Wiktorinbox is just an endpoint that receives JSONs, "actor model" is another JSON with your name
ZashOStatus is Atom feeds
ZashPlain simple Atom feeds. Throw in some extra metadata. Be happy.
Wiktorpff atom feeds, why all these brackets, twtxt is plain text files! https://rosaelefanten.org/twtxt.txt
Wiktor;)
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Wiktordoesn't OStatus use PubSubHubbub?
ZashYes
Wiktorsoo... it would be "easy" to roll an OStatus endpoint using Prosody sprinkled with some community modules?
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ZashWiktor: Yes. I had federation with GNU Social working a long time ago.
ZashSalmon is where it gets complicated.
ZashI'm assuming that "signed http messages" is on the same level.
Wiktorwell actually activitypub has two levels of signing, signed http requests are mandatory by Mastodon, they are quite easy but there is another thing, signed JSON messages, that is... mess... converting JSON into RDF and ordering that (canonicalization) and then signing, fortunately it's not required now
Wiktorit's funny, all these protocols are just juggling with how to pass the same basic data, and struggling with some basic security (does message X come from Y)
ZashYou've convinced me. I won't be looking at ActivityPub anymore. Thanks for sparing me that madness.
ZashWiktor: The funny thing is that XMPP (or even email) has all those problems solved since literally forever.
MattJBut can you run it on a shared web host?
MattJOh wait, you can it seems
ZashAnd the authentication part of PubSubHubbub is basically Dialback over HTTP
ZashMattJ: "it"
WiktorI know Zash, I've been reading XMPP RFCs and XEPs since 15 years ago or so, but since then I'm more reserved
Wiktorthey could at least reuse the xmpp s2s idea of client certs, that's simpler than these crypto-security-dialbacks (also present in ActivityPub)
MattJZash: The implementation OStatus was born from had the explicit goal of being in PHP and not requiring long lived processes
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MattJWhich meant no XMPP, except then it did
ZashMattJ: Ah. But it doesn't even require that. You can make do with a static atom XML.
ZashMattJ: Ah. But it doesn't even require that. You can make do with a static atom XML file.
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goffiOh PubsubHubHub has been renamed, didn't knew that