Dear XSF. We should write a blog post about how XMPP is the right solution to what's asked for by German Minsiter of Justice Katarina Barley regarding the opening of WhatsApp and other messengers.
Ge0rG
I'd volunteer the text, but who's the right person to approve that? comms team?
jonasw
Ge0rG, write the blogpost
jonasw
comms and possibly board
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Ge0rG
"possibly board" frightens me.
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Ge0rG
I wouldn't be surprised if Board would decide that we can not promote XMPP because that wouldn't be neutral against other open IM protocols like SIP and Matrix.
jonasw
come on
MattJ
Ge0rG, I can't tell if you're just saying things like that to be provocative, or whether you really believe them. In either case I think it's sad
Zash
Haha
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MattJ
I know you want the same thing as I do, and I am also sad Pidgin is listed, but there is still no proposal as to any criteria by which it should be removed
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MattJ
I explicitly included a question about implementation neutrality in the members survey to try and resolve this kind of issue as well
MattJ
It will be one of the things we talk about in the next board meeting probably, but at a glance opinion is very divided, no clear consensus
jonasw
classic :)
MattJ
I believe, as others have concluded also, that the XSF is simply not the right vehicle for promoting XMPP to end users
Wiktor
Just out of curiosity, what is/would be the right vehicle?
MattJ
Anything from a group of like-minded people with free time, to a completely new foundation
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MattJ
I have some stuff I have been working on, which I gave a talk about at FOSDEM a few years ago
Ge0rG
Wiktor: we need a Jabber Software Foundation
Wiktor
Yes, but with s/Jabber/XMPP/... ;)
MattJ
s/Jabber/Brand name without trademark/
Ge0rG
except that "we" can't even decide whether "Jabber™" is burned due to a huge trademark minefield, or still the right term
Wiktor
Remember to use "Open", something like "Open Communications Alliance"
Ge0rG
Wiktor: "Jabber" is to "XMPP" what "Email" is to "SMTP+IMAP"
Ge0rG
"Open" is so f***ing burned.
Wiktor
I didn't know email was a registered trademark :(
Wiktor
maybe jabber got so popular that the trademark would not hold... but I don't want to be the one to check it out :)
Ge0rG
Wiktor: do you have better suggestions for a word that's assosicated with a worldwide federated IM network?
jonasw
Whats… oh you said federated
Zash
Steal "Fediverse"
Wiktor
Fediverse still has some sub-terms, like ActivityPub (protocol), Mastodon (product)
Ge0rG
Fediverse. I've heard that once or twice before.
Seve/SouL
Universal Chat
Seve/SouL
UChat
Seve/SouLshurgs
Ge0rG
It's got like zero percent of brand awareness of XMPP.
Wiktor
Ge0rG, are you targetting people aware of XMPP or a broader audience?
jonasw
people aware of jabber
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Ge0rG
I claim that sufficiently many people are aware of Jabber that we should get our in-house trademark fight solved and promote the term properly.
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MattJ
Ge0rG, so the solutions I see to that are 1) ignore it 2) ask Cisco to make it all ok [2a) have Cisco actually make it all ok]
Wiktor
Okay, personally I don't know any person that knows jabber but doesn't know xmpp, but maybe it doesn't hold "in the wild"
Ge0rG
MattJ: ignore what?
MattJ
That there is any trademark issue
MattJ
That's pretty much what everyone has done so far
Seve/SouL
Wiktor, and who knows about jabber just says 'oh, I remember, something old'
Link Mauve
Wiktor, at least here in France, and I’ve heard in Russia too, when you go around people are talking about Jabber.
MattJ
Indeed
MattJ
and people who know about XMPP tend to write Jabber/XMPP anyway
Link Mauve
Yeah.
Link Mauve
Or even just Jabber.
Wiktor
Yep, jabber is tainted with "old" and "doesn't work on mobile" in my experience :)
jonasw
Seve/SouL, when they say that, reply with "Great, something to wear at your wedding then!" and hand them a Jabber sticker
Zash
ZIMPY!!
Wiktor
One way or another this foundation to promote xmpp sounds like a really good idea, 👍
Wiktor
zimpy the zebra?
Ge0rG
MattJ: reading "Jabber/XMPP" hurts my eyes. every. single. time.
Zash
Ge0rG: Like GNU+Linux ?
jonasw
Ge0rG, make issues which are the opposite of what one other person is doing at the moment! https://github.com/jabbercat/jabbercat/issues/89
Ge0rG
jonasw: what? Me? Feeding the trolls?
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pep.
"random> so is XMPP moving to GitLab?"
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Seve/SouL
Hahaha
Zash
Why not go back to Mercurial? ;)
jonasw
"back"?
Seve/SouL
I was looking to mve to another apartment, I may move to GitLab as well
pep.
Seve/SouL, good idea
jonasw
if I apply that line of thought, I need $7.5e9 now.
rion
don't go to gitlab. otherwise MS will buy it!
jonasw
go to gitlab, everyone go to gitlab, and look how MS bites it’s own shiny metal thing when all the interesting stuff is gone from GitHub :)
Zash
Random post on the fediverse said Google was a huge investor in Gitlab already
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Ge0rG
Let's switch to self-hosted Gogs on Azure cloud instead.
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jonasw
s/Gogs/Gitea/
Zash
Kallithea?
Ge0rG
Whatever.
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Ge0rG
Let's do our own distributed code thing based on XMPP.
jonasw
kallithea is ugly
Ge0rG
And call it... WAVE
Zash
Ge0rG: PubSub! All the things!
jonasw
why the heck do code web view things think that the most interesting thing is the commit history?
jonasw
even years after github figured out that this is /not/ the case
Ge0rG
jonasw: the commit history is the whole pride of the developer!
Kev
jonasw: I think it depends who's viewing, actually.
Kev
But defaulting to code seems sensible to me.
jonasw
I’ve only a few times seen myself to check the commit history of a project on GitHub. And tohse times it wasn’t useful because I couldn’t skip to the point where I wanted to look. But that might just be me.
Ge0rG
I'd say the README is more important
Ge0rG
README and how old the code is
jonasw
github does it right imo
Kev
I think github does it right for github, yes.
Kev
But for our internal tools I look at commit histories of the repo more often than I look at the code through the web interface, I think.
Kev
Maybe I'm wrong about my habits.
Ge0rG
maybe you can bookmark the /commits path then ;)
jonasw
you’re not wrong about your habits :)
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jonasw
it may be useful for internal (but even in our internal gitlab I mostly look at files, not commit history; I typically have a clone already when I need commit history and look localy then)
Kev
But you don't look at the local copy for files? :)
Kev
Anyway, I think the github model is right for github at least.
jonasw
Kev, most of the time I need to link something to someone
Kev
Ah.
Kev
Yes, I use that for that :)
jonasw
or go for a quick reference in code which I don’t have cloned
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pep.
> Ge0rG> Let's do our own distributed code thing based on XMPP.
You might be joking, but sàt actually has an issue tracker already
vanitasvitae
They also do PRs right?
Ge0rG
pep.: I'm only half-joking.
pep.
vanitasvitae, I think so yes
pep.
goffi ^
Ge0rG
pep.: I'm well aware that the tech can be used for it. Unfortunately, we lack a dedicated developer team and something like 5M USD.
pep.
yep
pep.
Just like GitLab is talking about using ActivityPub for the federated thing and not xmpp
jonasw
buy microsoft shares
Ge0rG
Like... you know... we lack for IM over XMPP
pep.
Ge0rG, that'd be good to have indeed
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edhelas
pep. yes ActivityPub is taking over a lot of platforms
edhelas
what I think is missing is that XMPP is not "showing" things
pep.
showing?
pep.
You mean marketing?
edhelas
it's good we have Pubsub for 10 years, do you see any serious projects that is using it at the moment ?
edhelas
no, not marketing, just build stuff on it
edhelas
and also integrate it in existing projects
Kev
I know of very serious projects built on pubsub, yes.
pep.
Kev, do you have examples?
pep.
public examples
Kev
No, not that are for me to share.
pep.
k
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pep.
Well that's not really helping the case
edhelas
this for example https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0070.html, it's a really nice XEP, let's integrate XMPP auth in Gitlab, Wikipedia…
pep.
edhelas, sure, go go send PRs
goffi
pep.: Ge0rG: I'm indeed working on forge tools, mainly for our own needs, but with some helping hand it could become nice ==> https://www.goffi.org/b/9555cc02-6a87-4b6b-af85-20f1c0736722
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goffi
edhelas: are you kidding ? I'm pushing for years for XEP-0070 and other stuff, and some people have followed (Chteufleur wrote his component after talking about XEP-0070 on DLFP, jnanar followed moment after with a demo website), but not enough. And yes ActivityPub is taking over where XMPP should have been.
goffi
years before Jehan also wrote a Wordpress plugin to use XEP-0070, but once again nobody followed
goffi
and that's the same story for nearly every feature of XMPP
edhelas
goffi that's what I said, there is some nice little projects, but it's hard to get traction
MattJ
XMPP adoption is not a problem that can be solved just by writing more code
goffi
MattJ: it's a combination of code, communication and luck
daniel
And concentrated power of will
goffi
MattJ: and something like XEP-0070 is super easy to integrate everywhere with Chteufleur component, and that's a good way to popularise XMPP IMHO.
Seve/SouL
goffi: +9999
pep.
daniel, I'm trying hard
goffi
There is a popular video showing comments post on Peertube and appearing in Mastodon, and everybody is amazed. That's something we do for many years between Movim and SàT (and Jappix when it was still in the game). It's a pitty to see that, but we have missed a great occasion, and now we'll have to deal with activityPub.
pep.
technology!!
Zash
Marketing marketing marketing
MattJ
goffi, well, Prosody has had a Pubsubhubbub bridge for a long long time, so there's no strict reason that the two protocols can't co-exist
Zash
MattJ: ActivityPub is completely different tho
goffi
MattJ: sure they can co-exist, but we have to do gateways, it's time to develop, energy to maintain, and machine resources to do the protocol conversion
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Wiktor
note that ActivityPub is dead simple, it's specially formatted JSON and signed http messages
Zash
With an actor model and inboxes and whatnot.
goffi
well XMPP is specially formatted XML
Wiktor
inbox is just an endpoint that receives JSONs, "actor model" is another JSON with your name
Zash
OStatus is Atom feeds
Zash
Plain simple Atom feeds. Throw in some extra metadata. Be happy.
Wiktor
pff atom feeds, why all these brackets, twtxt is plain text files! https://rosaelefanten.org/twtxt.txt
Wiktor
;)
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Wiktor
doesn't OStatus use PubSubHubbub?
Zash
Yes
Wiktor
soo... it would be "easy" to roll an OStatus endpoint using Prosody sprinkled with some community modules?
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Zash
Wiktor: Yes. I had federation with GNU Social working a long time ago.
Zash
Salmon is where it gets complicated.
Zash
I'm assuming that "signed http messages" is on the same level.
Wiktor
well actually activitypub has two levels of signing, signed http requests are mandatory by Mastodon, they are quite easy but there is another thing, signed JSON messages, that is... mess... converting JSON into RDF and ordering that (canonicalization) and then signing, fortunately it's not required now
Wiktor
it's funny, all these protocols are just juggling with how to pass the same basic data, and struggling with some basic security (does message X come from Y)
Zash
You've convinced me. I won't be looking at ActivityPub anymore. Thanks for sparing me that madness.
Zash
Wiktor: The funny thing is that XMPP (or even email) has all those problems solved since literally forever.
MattJ
But can you run it on a shared web host?
MattJ
Oh wait, you can it seems
Zash
And the authentication part of PubSubHubbub is basically Dialback over HTTP
Zash
MattJ: "it"
Wiktor
I know Zash, I've been reading XMPP RFCs and XEPs since 15 years ago or so, but since then I'm more reserved
Wiktor
they could at least reuse the xmpp s2s idea of client certs, that's simpler than these crypto-security-dialbacks (also present in ActivityPub)
MattJ
Zash: The implementation OStatus was born from had the explicit goal of being in PHP and not requiring long lived processes
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MattJ
Which meant no XMPP, except then it did
Zash
MattJ: Ah. But it doesn't even require that. You can make do with a static atom XML.✎
Zash
MattJ: Ah. But it doesn't even require that. You can make do with a static atom XML file. ✏
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goffi
Oh PubsubHubHub has been renamed, didn't knew that