XSF Discussion - 2018-06-07

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  176. flow

    daniel, how did you ephemeral compared to the recent protoxep?

  177. flow

    Isn't it basically just an extension element hint containing an expiry date?

  178. flow

    (and can't that already be done with AMP? harhar ;))

  179. daniel

    flow, just with a simple <pretty-please-delete-me-after seconds="300"/> hint. and the counter starts when reading the message

  180. flow

    isn't that essentially what the recent protoxep also does?

  181. daniel

    (not that exact syntax necessarily)

  182. flow

    IIRC i've even read a sentence saying "counter starts after reading"

  183. daniel

    flow, well the proto xep does a lot more than that. putting the actual body in an extra element and stuff like that

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  185. flow

    yeah, I wonder what the authors reasons where for that

  186. daniel

    "security" i assume

  187. flow

    I don't see any security possibly in there

  188. daniel

    because only clients that support burner message will be able to display that

  189. daniel

    flow, that’s my point

  190. flow

    but eventually still store the whole message

  191. daniel

    that why i rather have some honest, simple hint

  192. daniel

    than a complicated mechanism

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  194. Ge0rG

    I see some merit in the break-backward-compat approach of the new XEP. But it also has some nice drawbacks

  195. flow

    Ge0rG, care to share those merits?

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  198. Ge0rG

    daniel, flow: as the guys doing XML parsing, how hard is it to make use of this matryoshka wrapping? It's a bit like Carbons/Forwarded, but with individual message sub-elements in it instead of a whole message.

  199. Ge0rG

    flow: mainly the point made by the XEP itself: it's a deliberate break with backward compatibility to ensure that display only happens on supporting clients.

  200. Ge0rG

    As this is an optical thing anyway, that makes perfect sense

  201. daniel

    i’m really not a fan of the implied sense of security

  202. Wiktor

    Ge0rG: not familiar with the XEP but I always wondered why only body is encrypted, then for associated media tricks were invented (like checking if # is in right position instead of checking OOB tag), nested encrypted XML can be good for additional encrypted stuff... like jingle signaling... just my 2 eurocents

  203. lovetox

    yeah trying really hard to make something "secure" what can never be

  204. lovetox

    but we discussed this at length at the list

  205. lovetox

    there is not really more to say

  206. daniel

    Implementation wise it wouldn't be a problem in Conversations. But the again this is not something I would put in mainline

  207. Ge0rG

    daniel: I could argue that having FS-E2EE with all messages ending up stored in the clear on the user's device in a big sqlite is also just an *implied* sense of security.

  208. daniel

    And for my forks I rather stick with the approach I just described

  209. flow

    Ge0rG, ahh right, there was indeed a few sentences motiviating that, and even a link to a previous "leak" of such messages

  210. Kev

    Security is always against a particular (group of) attack(s).

  211. Kev

    If the attack you care about is the stolen-device attack, clearly plaintext in an easily extractable form on the device isn't remotely secure.

  212. Kev

    But if the attack you care about is your server operator listening in or forging messages, plaintext on your device might be fine.

  213. Ge0rG

    I can't see a well-defined attacker model in https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/ephemeral-messages.html#security

  214. Kev


  215. Ge0rG

    And neither in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0384.html#security

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  217. jonasw

    flow, the reasons for the extra wrapping was so that a legacy client wouldn’t display it accidentally.

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  219. jonasw

    (nothing to read here, move along)

  220. Ge0rG is just going through a very painfull process of redefining the attacker model so that the network dep't of $customer stands in a better light.

  221. Ge0rG

    Except it won't work. Not to actually improve security, and not even to make them look better.

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  261. Andrew Nenakhov

    Someone sent me PM in this muc to test iOS version of Xabber. I don't use client that supports PMs so don't know who it was. Pls message me directly.

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  264. daniel


  265. Andrew Nenakhov

    MUC is shit. :-)

  266. edhelas

    I have MIXed experienced with it yeah

  267. jonasw


  268. jonasw


  269. daniel

    Andrew Nenakhov: did you look at ejabberds muc sub?

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  271. daniel

    I mean I understand that one can't wait for mix to be ready if customers need a solution now. But coming up with the third trimmed down version of muc seems a bit... NIH or whatever

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  275. Dave Cridland

    daniel, Third? I think there's been more than that, but I can't think of them all.

  276. daniel

    Muc sub, muc light

  277. daniel

    Thats the two that came to life in recent years

  278. Dave Cridland

    daniel, Yeah, those two spring to mind. I just thought there was another, maybe from Tigase?

  279. daniel

    But yeah probably more...

  280. edhelas

    daniel do you have plans to integrate MIX in Conversations on the long term?

  281. daniel

    edhelas: yeah I think it is moving in the right direction currently

  282. daniel

    I had my doubts at some point...

  283. Dave Cridland

    edhelas, Surevine implemented one version of MIX fairly closely, but since then the specification has radically changed.

  284. daniel

    > edhelas, Surevine implemented one version of MIX fairly closely, but since then the specification has radically changed. That's what's stopping me from implementing it now

  285. edhelas

    I'm also happy with where it's going just that I'm wondering how it will fit in the Movim UI next to MUC

  286. jonasw

    edhelas, I have been thinking about the UX implications of having two major Group Chat standards, too

  287. edhelas

    also I think that the whole social part will maybe be rebased on MIX on the long term

  288. daniel

    Yeah clients side coexistence with muc worries me a bit too

  289. daniel

    Especially since Conversations is very tightly geared towards a conversation being either muc or 1:1

  290. edhelas

    that's why I also want MIX to not only be a "MUC2.0" but be generic enough to handle all kind of real time "channels"

  291. edhelas


  292. daniel

    It's a boolean if you will in most of the code

  293. jonasw

    uh, that’s going to be painful :(

  294. edhelas

    same for Movim actually

  295. jonasw

    I’m happy I started late enough to see this coming and having this abstracted away

  296. Kev

    Yeah, same. In 2008 ;)

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  299. Steve Kille

    edhelas: 'being generic enough to handle all kind of real time "channels"'' is definitely a MIX goal. If there are things you need NOT in the current MIX specs (which cannot be added on the edges) I'd really like to knowl. I'm working hard to simplify MIX, and push optional stuff away from the core. So I don't want to add new stuff, but we do need to make sure that generic use cases are addressed.

  300. Kev

    The whole 'shove whatever nodes you want in for additional data streams' thing is meant to allow this flexibility.

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  303. Andrew Nenakhov

    I don't think I'll live to see mix in reality. And speaking of nih, well, xmpp community had failed to come up with good group chat solution for how long, 20 years?

  304. Andrew Nenakhov

    Did look at muc sub. Phrase MUC/Sub approach is compliant with existing MUC is a deal breaker

  305. Andrew Nenakhov

    We need to kill it with fire.

  306. jonasw

    we agree on that :)

  307. daniel

    jonasw: I don't

  308. jonasw

    killing MUC with fire?

  309. daniel

    To me some parts of muc are 'good enough' to survive until mix comes along

  310. jonasw

    right, I might’ve spoken too fast. there is some merit in keeping MUC around for IRC-style use, like this room.

  311. daniel

    Yes it's not perfect

  312. jonasw

    I haven’t thought that through though.

  313. jonasw

    oh, and yes of course, I wouldn’t want to build another thing between MUC and MIX until MIX comes around.

  314. daniel

    But I rather use that than I temporary work around

  315. jonasw

    but in the long run, a world without MUC might be better ;-)

  316. Holger

    A solution such as MUC/Sub makes it work for WhatsApp groups without breaking compat. I prefer that over a hacky solution without compat (e.g. MUC-Lite).

  317. jonasw

    I unconditionally agree on that, daniel

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  319. daniel

    Yes and muc removes some of the annoyances

  320. daniel

    *And muc sub

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  324. jonasw

    does anyone implement muc sub on the client side?

  325. jonasw

    I haven’t looked into it actually.

  326. daniel

    Smack I think

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  329. daniel

    And we used parts of muc sub on a project as well

  330. Holger

    jonasw: p1 customers use it for their home-grown clients.

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  332. winfried

    Ge0rG flow daniel Kev: message deletion is (of course) not enforceable in any way, it is more about the social aspects of privacy: you communicate 'this message has a short validity and a limited purpose' (a very appropriate message when, for example, sexting). It is nice to have a UI that supports that.

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  334. edhelas

    Steve Kille for example, the thing that I'd like check if there is a header/payload system (like on pubsub) then I can easily check if I have to load the content of the messages or if they are already cached (the content can be quite big)

  335. MattJ

    winfried, I liked ralphm's example of sending someone a password

  336. Kev

    winfried: I understand the interest in marking a message as 'and then don't keep this long'. I don't mind standardising such a thing.

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  338. Kev

    winfried: But claims that it's not a security thing/it's just social are at odds with the protoXEP that we discussed yesterday, which tries (and fails) to enforce things.

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  340. daniel

    i think we understand that. the problem I have as a client developer is making sure my users understand that as well

  341. ralphm

    For meta data like this, you can use SHIM

  342. Kev

    edhelas: You can easily do that on top of MIX.

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  344. daniel

    in any case that shouldn't stop us from making a xep for that

  345. Kev

    In a similar way to pubsub avatars - splitting metadata and content for lookup.

  346. edhelas

    okay :)

  347. edhelas

    what about Nicknames, can we reuse https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0172.html#manage ?

  348. Kev

    I was pondering using the 172 payload, but I don't think it buys us much.

  349. edhelas

    yeah it's not a big change

  350. winfried

    (I missed yesterdays discussion, sorry) then we fully agree ;-)

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  353. edhelas

    I'm not a big fan of publishing things using simple <message> queries, I'd like to have proper IQ (with error management and ids) then I can handle those publication back in my UI

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  355. Kev

    You get error management and IDs with messages if you want them, just the same as IQ.

  356. edhelas

    that's great, it's just a lighter syntax then, but do you think that it should be nice to specify that ?

  357. Kev

    Doesn't xep60 already do that?

  358. edhelas

    yes, but with a different syntax and flow https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#publisher-publish-success

  359. ralphm

    I think I'm missing context, can someone explain me in a few sentences what this is about?

  360. edhelas

    in MIX 7.1.6, the message is published with id='92vax143g', this ID is not reflected in the answer so I don't know if the server actually ack the publication

  361. jonasw

    ralphm, some are talking about teh Ephemeral Messages ProtoXEP, the others about MIX

  362. Kev

    edhelas: That's only for the main 'messages' node, which is intended for simple IM-style discussion.

  363. MattJ

    If only MUC had threading!

  364. Kev

    But you have an infinite number of other nodes if you want standard pubsub semantics.

  365. Dave Cridland

    edhelas, The original id gets reflected to the "publisher" I think.

  366. edhelas

    Dave Cridland ah yes indeed, <submission-id>92vax143g</submission-id>, I overlooked it

  367. ralphm

    Dave Cridland: is that guaranteed?

  368. Kev

    And yes, the originator gets an ack on the original id.

  369. Kev

    ralphm: Yes, text just before example 30.

  370. Dave Cridland

    ralphm, In MIX? Yes.

  371. Kev


  372. ralphm


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  374. edhelas

    well looks like it really improved since last time :)

  375. edhelas

    on my side I'm planning to publish <entry xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom'> in there

  376. edhelas

    the fact that the nick and the jid are also generated from the server is a big plus

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  378. Ge0rG

    11:56:30 <--- You (Ge0rG) left the room (the MUC server is not responding) 11:56:30 ---> You (Ge0rG) joined the room 11:56:30 Warning: This room is not anonymous. 12:02:30 <--- You (Ge0rG) left the room (the MUC server is not responding) 12:02:31 ---> You (Ge0rG) joined the room 12:02:31 Warning: This room is not anonymous. 12:08:31 <--- You (Ge0rG) left the room (the MUC server is not responding) 12:08:31 ---> You (Ge0rG) joined the room 12:08:31 Warning: This room is not anonymous. 12:14:31 <--- You (Ge0rG) left the room (the MUC server is not responding) 12:14:31 ---> You (Ge0rG) joined the room 12:14:31 Warning: This room is not anonymous. 12:20:31 <--- You (Ge0rG) left the room (the MUC server is not responding) 12:20:31 ---> You (Ge0rG) joined the room 12:20:31 Warning: This room is not anonymous. 12:26:31 <--- You (Ge0rG) left the room (the MUC server is not responding) 12:26:32 ---> You (Ge0rG) joined the room 12:26:32 Warning: This room is not anonymous.

  379. Ge0rG

    This is what happens when your other MUC-joined client goes out of battery and sticks in 0198 hibernation.

  380. ralphm ❤ MUC

  381. Ge0rG

    Schrödinger's Chat.

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  415. Andrew Nenakhov

    0198 should be killed with fire 🔥, too

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  417. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: 0198 is a solution to a problem. Do you want to return to the problem being unsolved?

  418. Ge0rG

    Maybe we should redo XMPP on top of stateless HTTP and WebSockets

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  421. daniel

    Maybe with a distributed graph database in the background

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  423. Ge0rG

    a blockchain.

  424. Ge0rG

    a cyber quantum blockchain.

  425. Link Mauve

    In France, we just got “blockchain” put in the law!

  426. Link Mauve

    It’s as hilariously useless as you may guess.

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  435. Andrew Nenakhov

    Ge0rG, very imperfect solution, we'll soon switch to better one.

  436. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: I've heard that already, almost a decade ago.

  437. Andrew Nenakhov

    Not from me. I wasn't around 10 years ago.

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  439. Ge0rG


  440. MattJ

    Andrew Nenakhov, overview of how your solution would differ?

  441. Andrew Nenakhov

    That doc I've given you access contains plan of what we do (xep-0XXX, xep-0PPP), it is actually implemented already on server (at least, it passes tests)

  442. Ge0rG

    Andrew Nenakhov: didn't have the time yet, sorry :(

  443. Andrew Nenakhov

    No problem, it's a rather long doc with 5 protocols all it Russian

  444. Ge0rG

    It's not about the Russian, it's about the people who pay me to look at other documents.

  445. UsL

    : D

  446. Andrew Nenakhov

    MattJ, overview: Disable offline messages Server stamps IDs and 'true' timestamps on servers Message delivery to server is controlled by receiving server Id by client (as a confirmation) Message delivery to clients is not controlled, client grabs recent state from server on reconnect and fetches required info from server.

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  448. Andrew Nenakhov

    So far looks to be working. 🤗

  449. jonasw

    but that only works for <message/>s, right, not for <presence/> and <iq/>?

  450. pep.

    where's the part about reusing the previous session

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  452. Andrew Nenakhov

    No reusing previous session!

  453. jonasw

    so a user with 1000 contacts will get a presence storm when their phone drops off the network for a moment?

  454. Andrew Nenakhov

    No ) he won't.

  455. jonasw

    why ont?

  456. jonasw

    why not?

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  458. Andrew Nenakhov

    All we re doing is to make an extremely swift reconnect.

  459. pep.

    How does that work

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  462. Ge0rG


  463. pep.

    I see

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  465. Andrew Nenakhov

    pep., client requests only those presences that we're changed since client last received presence.

  466. Andrew Nenakhov

    Swiftly, yes.

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  468. pep.

    So there's no offline message anymore, do you include MAM in there?

  469. pep.

    Or were you talking about the thing named offline messages

  470. Andrew Nenakhov

    Mostly, it's modified mam,yes

  471. Andrew Nenakhov

    We disable offline messages.

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  484. Andrew Nenakhov

    By the way, just remembered a very recent heated discussion where one guy was pressing me into 'we are in a 3rd generations of messengers, no longer need presences at all, we are always online'.

  485. Kev

    I'm surprisingly sympathetic to that view.

  486. mikaela has left

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  488. Andrew Nenakhov

    I understand where it comes from, but don't fully agree.

  489. Kev

    I think we should strip most stuff out of presence, make it account-wide instead in PEP.

  490. Kev

    We don't need per-device status messages.

  491. efrit has joined

  492. Kev

    And having one device DND, one Away, and one Free For Chat is a nonsense.

  493. pep.

    Andrew Nenakhov, à la Slack/Matrix/Mattermost etc, where everybody is always online? or is this just a side effect of no presence

  494. Kev

    pep.: But they're not.

  495. Kev

    Slack makes it very clear whether someone's online or not.

  496. Kev

    And that is useful.

  497. rtq3 has left

  498. Kev

    It's just not useful to know that they're online on both their desktop and their mobile. Just that they're online.

  499. pep.

    They're still referenced in the channel even if they're not there anymore

  500. Kev

    As they are in XMPP with MIX.

  501. pep.

    Yeah, I don't like that either

  502. edhelas

    related to MIX, how MIX is handling channels on JIDs, can I create a MIX channel on my own account ?

  503. Kev

    You can't.

  504. Kev

    Well, technically you could, but it would be a Bad Idea.

  505. Kev

    Much as you /could/ host a MUC room on your own JID, but it'd be a Bad Idea.

  506. pep.

    Kev, what does this feature bring exactly, always being in the room. What can you do that you couldn't without

  507. Kev

    pep.: See who belongs to the room, and sensibly have synchronisation between clients.

  508. pep.

    Kev, can you define "belong" in this context

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  514. flow

    pep., actively entered the room and was granted to do so before without actively leaving the room or being kicked in the mean time

  515. pep.

    Ok, what about "X entered roomY, closed his browser without parting, and never came back"

  516. Kev

    Dead user accounts is a problem everywhere, not just rooms.

  517. marmistrz has left

  518. Kev

    The same is true in your roster.

  519. pep.

    but it wasn't the case in muc was it

  520. Kev

    It was in MUC too, just differently.

  521. Zash

    membership lists would have that issue

  522. Kev

    In MUC you ended up with stale affiliation lists.

  523. Zash


  524. pep.


  525. SamWhited has left

  526. Ge0rG

    But an affiliation list doesn't cause traffic.

  527. Kev


  528. Guus

    Can we hyjack this room for a quick board meeting please?

  529. pep.


  530. MattJ

    brb 30s

  531. Zash

    Guus, pep. you have 30s to fight for the room :)

  532. pep.


  533. Guus


  534. calgromi has left

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  536. pep. prepares the glove

  537. MattJ

    Time's up

  538. Guus

    Ralphm, nyco, martin?

  539. ralphm set the topic to

    XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  540. ralphm bangs gavel

  541. ralphm

    0. Welcome and Agenda

  542. ralphm

    Who's here? What do you have?

  543. Guus

    Me. A house for sale.

  544. Andrew Nenakhov

    > Slack makes it very clear whether someone's online or not. > And that is useful. +1 my managers are very unhappy when they don't see who is online on corporate xmpp server

  545. ralphm


  546. MattJ


  547. nyco has joined

  548. nyco


  549. Guus

    (nothing except for the remainder of the privacy discussion we had last week)

  550. ralphm

    All right.

  551. ralphm

    Anyone heard from Martin?

  552. Guus

    (http://www.abelenstrasingel12.nl <-- it actually _is_ for sale)

  553. Guus


  554. Guus

    nor Nyco for a while

  555. MattJ

    No - I can try to contact him before the next meeting

  556. MattJ

    nyco is here

  557. Guus

    ah, missed that

  558. ralphm

    MattJ: thanks

  559. Guus waves

  560. ralphm

    1. Minutes

  561. ralphm

    Who can do them?

  562. nyco


  563. MattJ

    I can do them

  564. ralphm


  565. ralphm

    2. Continuation of the privacy discussion

  566. ralphm

    Guus, take it away

  567. Guus

    ooh, me? 🙂

  568. Guus

    I'm struggling to remember where we left off last week

  569. rtq3 has left

  570. Guus

    we discussed gdpr, and forming a team including I think Ralph, and Alex, to do an inventory?

  571. MattJ

    Looks like we neglected to take minutes of the last meeting?

  572. Guus

    we neglected to take minutes of the last meeting.

  573. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  574. j.r has joined

  575. Guus

    here though: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-05-31/#13:58:50

  576. ralphm

    MattJ: yeah :-(

  577. MattJ

    > [14:02:49] <Guus> Let's aim to have a mission statement / member list ready for next week, so that we can procedurally establish the team.

  578. MattJ

    I guess this was the primary action item

  579. ralphm

    Yeah, we kinda ran out of time

  580. Guus

    nonetheless, we could do that now - assuming that no-one thought of an alternative approach since last week?

  581. MattJ

    No, sounds good to me

  582. ralphm

    I think in terms of mission statement, it should be somewhere along the lines of: make an inventory of all personal data we (= the XSF) collect, review our Privacy Policy (and make sure it gets back on the website), and see if there's work beyond that.

  583. Guus

    As for a mission statement (someone put this in proper English please), we're looking for a team that takes the lead in coordinating with board and work teams .. .what he said

  584. ralphm


  585. ralphm

    Alex: are you around?

  586. Guus

    first stab: "The GDPR work team's mission is to a) make an inventory of all personal data that is being collected by the XSF b) review our Privacy Policy, and c) suggest improvements to both."

  587. ralphm

    Anyone have comments on this?

  588. MattJ


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  591. nyco


  592. MattJ

    As I mentioned last week, such a team will need to overlap with or work with iteam

  593. calgromi has left

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  595. Guus

    MattJ, most likely - but I'd imagine that the team would ask specific questions to iteam, rather than have iteam worry about what info they should uncover.

  596. calgromi has left

  597. Guus

    Kev, you here?

  598. j.r has joined

  599. Kev


  600. Kev

    I'm vanishing in about 15 seconds.

  601. Kev

    What's up?

  602. Guus

    gdpr / iteam wise, are you comfortable (with iteam hat) to help facilitate another WT to perform an inventory of what GDPR-related data we store in our systems?

  603. Guus

    (and/or can you suggest a better approach?)

  604. ralphm

    (or intosi)

  605. Kev

    If someone asks iteam a straightforward question, I'm fine with us answering it.

  606. Kev

    I'm not fine with a question of "What stuff do we need to care about from iteam".

  607. ralphm

    Kev: what personal data do we collect and how is it processed and stored?

  608. Kev

    I don't think we can answer that without being told what personal data are.

  609. Kev

    I need to vanish now, back in a few hours.

  610. Guus

    I'm assuming that GDPR-team and iteam can work on this together, from what I've read just now.

  611. ralphm

    (where "personal data" is a very broad category, as defined in many legal documents, but roughly, every type of information that is related to a natural person or can be identified with one)

  612. Guus

    as for the member list of the work team: we agreed last week that it'd be wise to have Alex be part of that team.

  613. Guus

    Ralph, either you volunteered, or I volunteered you, iirc?

  614. Guus

    We have various people working on GDPR in context of https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR

  615. Guus

    assuming that these contributors meet the work-team member criteria (must be an xsf member, iirc), maybe invite them to join?

  616. Guus

    The wiki page lists Ge0rG, jonasw, pep., peter.waher & winfried

  617. Guus

    is anyone else interested?

  618. ralphm

    Guus: you volunteered me

  619. pep.

    peter provided feedback on the minutes mostly

  620. MattJ

    I can be on the team, I'm also on iteam, it will probably help

  621. ralphm

    I haven't been able to review this page yet. The number of people here is pretty large.

  622. Guus

    I'm not saying that all of them aught to be on the team

  623. Guus

    but that group makes a pool of member candidates for the team

  624. ralphm

    I personally would want involvement of Alex (our Secretary and keeper of company records)

  625. Guus


  626. ralphm

    Thanks MattJ

  627. MattJ

    So we're coming up to the end of the meeting time... what members do we have so far?

  628. ralphm

    In any case, we need to appoint members of this work team. Do we explicitly ask who wants to be on it?

  629. MattJ

    Me, <potentially Alex>, <some people from the GDPR investigation that was done over the past months>

  630. MattJ

    Yes, I think we need to ask them before we can include them :)

  631. ralphm

    I'll keep an eye on things, but I don't think we need a bloated team

  632. muppeth has joined

  633. Guus

    yeah, 3 or 4 should be more than enough members

  634. Guus

    Matt, could you ping Alex and the GDPR-gang, see if any of them is interested in joining?

  635. MattJ

    Can do

  636. Guus

    we can that formalize next week.

  637. ralphm


  638. Guus

    (don't let that stop you from getting started, if the opportunity arises)

  639. waqas has joined

  640. MattJ

    No, I'll aim to have a clearer idea of who's on the team by next week

  641. Guus

    wfm, thanks

  642. ralphm

    Right, we install the Work Team next week.

  643. ralphm

    With that:

  644. ralphm

    3. AOB?

  645. Guus

    maybe ping Martin?

  646. ralphm

    MattJ already said he was going to.

  647. Guus

    oh, sorry, missed that

  648. Guus

    nothing from me then

  649. ralphm

    4. Date of Next

  650. ralphm


  651. Guus

    Next week, I'll likely be unavailable.

  652. nyco


  653. Guus

    but please continue without me

  654. jonasw


  655. MattJ


  656. ralphm

    Guus: np, you can vote on list

  657. jonasw


  658. ralphm

    5. Close

  659. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  660. Guus

    Thank you

  661. ralphm bangs gavel

  662. jonasw

    I heard my n ame. I can’t promise that I can do a lot in the work team, so I’m hesitant to join

  663. Ge0rG

    I'm 120% busy ATM

  664. ralphm set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  665. jubalh has left

  666. ralphm

    There's no such thing.

  667. MattJ

    loadavg 1.2

  668. ralphm

    You probably mean that you're not slacking unlike normal.

  669. jonasw


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  690. jubalh

    Zash, for some reason cannot join prosody channel right now. quick question: when udpating from 0.9 to 0.10 and having modules_enabled = {"mam"; "carbons", "http_upload"}; how does one decide whether to use the 0.10 mam and carbons and not the ones from prosody modules?

  691. jubalh has left

  692. Zash

    Symlinks from a different directory is one way.

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  700. jonasw

    has muclumbus landed somewhere popular?

  701. jonasw

    requests -- specifically first visits -- went up quite a bit in the last hour

  702. Zash

    no reffferrrerrrrrsss?

  703. jonasw

    not in my logs

  704. jonasw

    although I thought I had

  705. jonasw

    but maybe people just strip that nowadays

  706. Zash

    I'm wondering if browsers stopped sending them.

  707. jonasw

    not for site-local things

  708. jonasw

    (I see those)

  709. jonasw

    but maybe for cross-site things, or whatever this is coming from forbids it on the link

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  716. daniel

    MattJ: what's the state of persistent, configurable pep in prosody?

  717. rion has left

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  719. pep.

    > Andrew Nenakhov> +1 my managers are very unhappy when they don't see who is online on corporate xmpp server I don't understand how they get not to see who's online on xmpp

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  731. MattJ

    daniel, Link Mauve is working on it

  732. jubalh has left

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  734. pep.

    MattJ, I think he's mostly waiting for more feature requests

  735. pep.


  736. MattJ

    daniel, you just need: persistence, publish-options, access control (public, roster, closed) - anything else?

  737. jubalh has joined

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  741. daniel

    MattJ: well I'm asking in regards to bookmarks 2 which also requires multi item

  742. daniel

    I guess

  743. jubalh has joined

  744. MattJ

    multi-item is already supported (in mod_pep_plus, which will probably eventually become mod_pep)

  745. MattJ

    Best case this makes it into the next major release in a couple of months

  746. daniel

    And behaves correctly in conjunction with +notify. Although I have no idea what 'correctly' means in that regard

  747. jonasw

    treat any resource which publishes the corresponding +notify as subscribed?

  748. jonasw

    (modulo ACLs)

  749. jubalh

    is the prosody channel gone?

  750. Zash


  751. MattJ

    jubalh, https://chat.prosody.im/ as another way to access it

  752. jubalh

    right, now it works

  753. pep.

    I see you on it though

  754. jubalh

    pep., just connected now :)

  755. Zash

    Prosody itself got OOM'd by a test runner we were experimenting with

  756. Zash

    Prosody itself got OOM'd yesterday by a test runner we were experimenting with

  757. daniel

    jonasw: yeah but does it send the last item or only one item on login

  758. daniel

    Or none of the items

  759. daniel

    I think none or all makes sense

  760. daniel

    But pep is usually last

  761. jonasw

    daniel, what does normal pubsub do?

  762. daniel

    Although the xep gives you some wiggle room

  763. MattJ

    "it MUST generate a notification containing at least the last published item for that node and send it to the newly-available resource"

  764. MattJ


  765. Guus has left

  766. jonasw

    so all items is the only option

  767. jonasw

    (sensible option at least)

  768. rtq3 has left

  769. MattJ

    Interestingly that wouldn't necessarily give you retraction notifications, would it?

  770. jonasw

    true, but sending a complete itemset gives you that implicitly

  771. MattJ

    Oh right, <items>

  772. Andrew Nenakhov

    pep., >I don't understand how they get not to see who's online on xmpp That's simple. I forced them to switch from gajim to early versions of Xabber for Web, which was, at times, weird and buggy. There was a period when presences were not supported at all

  773. daniel

    jonasw: yeah I'm not sure what the correct way is. But that's something we need to figure out and then prosody should do that. MattJ was asking about requirements and that's one of them even though we don't know yet how it will work exactly

  774. Valerian has left

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  777. pep.

    Andrew Nenakhov, right, that's not an issue with XMPP then

  778. daniel

    And I hate bookmarks 2 a bit for doing the multi item thing

  779. daniel

    Running old and new 48 in parallel would have been so easy

  780. daniel

    But multi items really complicates things

  781. MattJ

    If 0048 didn't exist, is multi-item better?

  782. jubalh has left

  783. daniel

    MattJ: I don't necessarily thing so

  784. daniel

    It's 'OK' but not sure why it would be better

  785. Zash

    Less data to send if one bookmark is changed

  786. Guus has left

  787. daniel

    Zash: yes. But how many bookmarks do you have?

  788. Zash

    A bunch

  789. pep.

    ~ 70 here

  790. marmistrz has left

  791. jonasw

    and fewer races

  792. lnj has left

  793. Zash

    How often do you change your bookmarks from two clients at once tho?

  794. lnj has joined

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  796. daniel

    But whether or not we think compat with 48 is more challenging we still need to figure out how we want to handle notifications

  797. jonasw

    Zash, hibernated devices which can only apply changes later are a thing

  798. jonasw

    Zash, also two clients receiving a MUC invitation and following it

  799. jonasw

    or receiving a MUC invitation while modifying a bookmark

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  842. jonasw

    you gotta love worldbuilding

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  845. daniel

    jonasw: but if two clients publish the same bookmark at the same time multi item will give you two additional bookmarks. Single item will just make the last one win

  846. Lance has joined

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  849. daniel

    Or does it take the jid as id?

  850. jjrh has left

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  852. daniel

    Oh it does

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  923. Link Mauve

    daniel, oh, are you planning on supporting Bookmarks 2? So far I haven’t heard any compelling reason to do so. (I’m working on a mod_bookmarks for Prosody to synchronise between old and new 0048-style bookmarks, whether I will support Bookmarks 2 too is still unknown, and will mostly depend on whether clients do implement it.)

  924. jonasw

    Link Mauve, it’s on my todo list for aioxmpp

  925. Link Mauve

    jonasw, why?

  926. jonasw

    reduction in raciness of updates of individual bookmark items

  927. jonasw

    notifications for single items

  928. jonasw

    both of which simplify things quite a bit

  929. Link Mauve

    But it’s also missing a bunch of features which were used in 0048, such as shared room passwords (which I only use for gateways, but are still useful to support) or non-MUC bookmarks.

  930. marmistrz has joined

  931. jonasw

    the latter is definitely a feature for me

  932. jonasw

    MUC bookmarks have a functional relevance to every IM client supporting MUC, which are most

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  936. jonasw

    dealing with other bookmarks mixed into that is annoying (and not simplified by the one-object-for-all thing)

  937. Link Mauve

    jonasw, I might add support for it at some point in Prosody, the goal being to have a single store for bookmarks, and to synchronise all two (three) versions for clients to only pick one favourite.

  938. jonasw

    regarding shared room passwords, you can probably get that into the xep

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  991. Ge0rG

    One Store To Rule Them All?

  992. Zash

    The global blockchain graph database?

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  1082. Kev

    Link Mauve: It's on our todo list for Swift (bookmarks 2)

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