XSF Discussion - 2018-06-07

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  176. flow daniel, how did you ephemeral compared to the recent protoxep?
  177. flow Isn't it basically just an extension element hint containing an expiry date?
  178. flow (and can't that already be done with AMP? harhar ;))
  179. daniel flow, just with a simple <pretty-please-delete-me-after seconds="300"/> hint. and the counter starts when reading the message
  180. flow isn't that essentially what the recent protoxep also does?
  181. daniel (not that exact syntax necessarily)
  182. flow IIRC i've even read a sentence saying "counter starts after reading"
  183. daniel flow, well the proto xep does a lot more than that. putting the actual body in an extra element and stuff like that
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  185. flow yeah, I wonder what the authors reasons where for that
  186. daniel "security" i assume
  187. flow I don't see any security possibly in there
  188. daniel because only clients that support burner message will be able to display that
  189. daniel flow, that’s my point
  190. flow but eventually still store the whole message
  191. daniel that why i rather have some honest, simple hint
  192. daniel than a complicated mechanism
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  194. Ge0rG I see some merit in the break-backward-compat approach of the new XEP. But it also has some nice drawbacks
  195. flow Ge0rG, care to share those merits?
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  198. Ge0rG daniel, flow: as the guys doing XML parsing, how hard is it to make use of this matryoshka wrapping? It's a bit like Carbons/Forwarded, but with individual message sub-elements in it instead of a whole message.
  199. Ge0rG flow: mainly the point made by the XEP itself: it's a deliberate break with backward compatibility to ensure that display only happens on supporting clients.
  200. Ge0rG As this is an optical thing anyway, that makes perfect sense
  201. daniel i’m really not a fan of the implied sense of security
  202. Wiktor Ge0rG: not familiar with the XEP but I always wondered why only body is encrypted, then for associated media tricks were invented (like checking if # is in right position instead of checking OOB tag), nested encrypted XML can be good for additional encrypted stuff... like jingle signaling... just my 2 eurocents
  203. lovetox yeah trying really hard to make something "secure" what can never be
  204. lovetox but we discussed this at length at the list
  205. lovetox there is not really more to say
  206. daniel Implementation wise it wouldn't be a problem in Conversations. But the again this is not something I would put in mainline
  207. Ge0rG daniel: I could argue that having FS-E2EE with all messages ending up stored in the clear on the user's device in a big sqlite is also just an *implied* sense of security.
  208. daniel And for my forks I rather stick with the approach I just described
  209. flow Ge0rG, ahh right, there was indeed a few sentences motiviating that, and even a link to a previous "leak" of such messages
  210. Kev Security is always against a particular (group of) attack(s).
  211. Kev If the attack you care about is the stolen-device attack, clearly plaintext in an easily extractable form on the device isn't remotely secure.
  212. Kev But if the attack you care about is your server operator listening in or forging messages, plaintext on your device might be fine.
  213. Ge0rG I can't see a well-defined attacker model in https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/ephemeral-messages.html#security
  214. Kev No.
  215. Ge0rG And neither in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0384.html#security
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  217. jonasw flow, the reasons for the extra wrapping was so that a legacy client wouldn’t display it accidentally.
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  219. jonasw (nothing to read here, move along)
  220. Ge0rG is just going through a very painfull process of redefining the attacker model so that the network dep't of $customer stands in a better light.
  221. Ge0rG Except it won't work. Not to actually improve security, and not even to make them look better.
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  261. Andrew Nenakhov Someone sent me PM in this muc to test iOS version of Xabber. I don't use client that supports PMs so don't know who it was. Pls message me directly.
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  264. daniel 😂
  265. Andrew Nenakhov MUC is shit. :-)
  266. edhelas I have MIXed experienced with it yeah
  267. jonasw hah.t
  268. jonasw hah.
  269. daniel Andrew Nenakhov: did you look at ejabberds muc sub?
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  271. daniel I mean I understand that one can't wait for mix to be ready if customers need a solution now. But coming up with the third trimmed down version of muc seems a bit... NIH or whatever
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  275. Dave Cridland daniel, Third? I think there's been more than that, but I can't think of them all.
  276. daniel Muc sub, muc light
  277. daniel Thats the two that came to life in recent years
  278. Dave Cridland daniel, Yeah, those two spring to mind. I just thought there was another, maybe from Tigase?
  279. daniel But yeah probably more...
  280. edhelas daniel do you have plans to integrate MIX in Conversations on the long term?
  281. daniel edhelas: yeah I think it is moving in the right direction currently
  282. daniel I had my doubts at some point...
  283. Dave Cridland edhelas, Surevine implemented one version of MIX fairly closely, but since then the specification has radically changed.
  284. daniel > edhelas, Surevine implemented one version of MIX fairly closely, but since then the specification has radically changed. That's what's stopping me from implementing it now
  285. edhelas I'm also happy with where it's going just that I'm wondering how it will fit in the Movim UI next to MUC
  286. jonasw edhelas, I have been thinking about the UX implications of having two major Group Chat standards, too
  287. edhelas also I think that the whole social part will maybe be rebased on MIX on the long term
  288. daniel Yeah clients side coexistence with muc worries me a bit too
  289. daniel Especially since Conversations is very tightly geared towards a conversation being either muc or 1:1
  290. edhelas that's why I also want MIX to not only be a "MUC2.0" but be generic enough to handle all kind of real time "channels"
  291. edhelas true
  292. daniel It's a boolean if you will in most of the code
  293. jonasw uh, that’s going to be painful :(
  294. edhelas same for Movim actually
  295. jonasw I’m happy I started late enough to see this coming and having this abstracted away
  296. Kev Yeah, same. In 2008 ;)
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  299. Steve Kille edhelas: 'being generic enough to handle all kind of real time "channels"'' is definitely a MIX goal. If there are things you need NOT in the current MIX specs (which cannot be added on the edges) I'd really like to knowl. I'm working hard to simplify MIX, and push optional stuff away from the core. So I don't want to add new stuff, but we do need to make sure that generic use cases are addressed.
  300. Kev The whole 'shove whatever nodes you want in for additional data streams' thing is meant to allow this flexibility.
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  303. Andrew Nenakhov I don't think I'll live to see mix in reality. And speaking of nih, well, xmpp community had failed to come up with good group chat solution for how long, 20 years?
  304. Andrew Nenakhov Did look at muc sub. Phrase MUC/Sub approach is compliant with existing MUC is a deal breaker
  305. Andrew Nenakhov We need to kill it with fire.
  306. jonasw we agree on that :)
  307. daniel jonasw: I don't
  308. jonasw killing MUC with fire?
  309. daniel To me some parts of muc are 'good enough' to survive until mix comes along
  310. jonasw right, I might’ve spoken too fast. there is some merit in keeping MUC around for IRC-style use, like this room.
  311. daniel Yes it's not perfect
  312. jonasw I haven’t thought that through though.
  313. jonasw oh, and yes of course, I wouldn’t want to build another thing between MUC and MIX until MIX comes around.
  314. daniel But I rather use that than I temporary work around
  315. jonasw but in the long run, a world without MUC might be better ;-)
  316. Holger A solution such as MUC/Sub makes it work for WhatsApp groups without breaking compat. I prefer that over a hacky solution without compat (e.g. MUC-Lite).
  317. jonasw I unconditionally agree on that, daniel
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  319. daniel Yes and muc removes some of the annoyances
  320. daniel *And muc sub
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  324. jonasw does anyone implement muc sub on the client side?
  325. jonasw I haven’t looked into it actually.
  326. daniel Smack I think
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  329. daniel And we used parts of muc sub on a project as well
  330. Holger jonasw: p1 customers use it for their home-grown clients.
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  332. winfried Ge0rG flow daniel Kev: message deletion is (of course) not enforceable in any way, it is more about the social aspects of privacy: you communicate 'this message has a short validity and a limited purpose' (a very appropriate message when, for example, sexting). It is nice to have a UI that supports that.
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  334. edhelas Steve Kille for example, the thing that I'd like check if there is a header/payload system (like on pubsub) then I can easily check if I have to load the content of the messages or if they are already cached (the content can be quite big)
  335. MattJ winfried, I liked ralphm's example of sending someone a password
  336. Kev winfried: I understand the interest in marking a message as 'and then don't keep this long'. I don't mind standardising such a thing.
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  338. Kev winfried: But claims that it's not a security thing/it's just social are at odds with the protoXEP that we discussed yesterday, which tries (and fails) to enforce things.
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  340. daniel i think we understand that. the problem I have as a client developer is making sure my users understand that as well
  341. ralphm For meta data like this, you can use SHIM
  342. Kev edhelas: You can easily do that on top of MIX.
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  344. daniel in any case that shouldn't stop us from making a xep for that
  345. Kev In a similar way to pubsub avatars - splitting metadata and content for lookup.
  346. edhelas okay :)
  347. edhelas what about Nicknames, can we reuse https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0172.html#manage ?
  348. Kev I was pondering using the 172 payload, but I don't think it buys us much.
  349. edhelas yeah it's not a big change
  350. winfried (I missed yesterdays discussion, sorry) then we fully agree ;-)
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  353. edhelas I'm not a big fan of publishing things using simple <message> queries, I'd like to have proper IQ (with error management and ids) then I can handle those publication back in my UI
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  355. Kev You get error management and IDs with messages if you want them, just the same as IQ.
  356. edhelas that's great, it's just a lighter syntax then, but do you think that it should be nice to specify that ?
  357. Kev Doesn't xep60 already do that?
  358. edhelas yes, but with a different syntax and flow https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#publisher-publish-success
  359. ralphm I think I'm missing context, can someone explain me in a few sentences what this is about?
  360. edhelas in MIX 7.1.6, the message is published with id='92vax143g', this ID is not reflected in the answer so I don't know if the server actually ack the publication
  361. jonasw ralphm, some are talking about teh Ephemeral Messages ProtoXEP, the others about MIX
  362. Kev edhelas: That's only for the main 'messages' node, which is intended for simple IM-style discussion.
  363. MattJ If only MUC had threading!
  364. Kev But you have an infinite number of other nodes if you want standard pubsub semantics.
  365. Dave Cridland edhelas, The original id gets reflected to the "publisher" I think.
  366. edhelas Dave Cridland ah yes indeed, <submission-id>92vax143g</submission-id>, I overlooked it
  367. ralphm Dave Cridland: is that guaranteed?
  368. Kev And yes, the originator gets an ack on the original id.
  369. Kev ralphm: Yes, text just before example 30.
  370. Dave Cridland ralphm, In MIX? Yes.
  371. Kev MUST
  372. ralphm Yay
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  374. edhelas well looks like it really improved since last time :)
  375. edhelas on my side I'm planning to publish <entry xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom'> in there
  376. edhelas the fact that the nick and the jid are also generated from the server is a big plus
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  378. Ge0rG 11:56:30 <--- You (Ge0rG) left the room (the MUC server is not responding) 11:56:30 ---> You (Ge0rG) joined the room 11:56:30 Warning: This room is not anonymous. 12:02:30 <--- You (Ge0rG) left the room (the MUC server is not responding) 12:02:31 ---> You (Ge0rG) joined the room 12:02:31 Warning: This room is not anonymous. 12:08:31 <--- You (Ge0rG) left the room (the MUC server is not responding) 12:08:31 ---> You (Ge0rG) joined the room 12:08:31 Warning: This room is not anonymous. 12:14:31 <--- You (Ge0rG) left the room (the MUC server is not responding) 12:14:31 ---> You (Ge0rG) joined the room 12:14:31 Warning: This room is not anonymous. 12:20:31 <--- You (Ge0rG) left the room (the MUC server is not responding) 12:20:31 ---> You (Ge0rG) joined the room 12:20:31 Warning: This room is not anonymous. 12:26:31 <--- You (Ge0rG) left the room (the MUC server is not responding) 12:26:32 ---> You (Ge0rG) joined the room 12:26:32 Warning: This room is not anonymous.
  379. Ge0rG This is what happens when your other MUC-joined client goes out of battery and sticks in 0198 hibernation.
  380. ralphm ❤ MUC
  381. Ge0rG Schrödinger's Chat.
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  415. Andrew Nenakhov 0198 should be killed with fire 🔥, too
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  417. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: 0198 is a solution to a problem. Do you want to return to the problem being unsolved?
  418. Ge0rG Maybe we should redo XMPP on top of stateless HTTP and WebSockets
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  421. daniel Maybe with a distributed graph database in the background
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  423. Ge0rG a blockchain.
  424. Ge0rG a cyber quantum blockchain.
  425. Link Mauve In France, we just got “blockchain” put in the law!
  426. Link Mauve It’s as hilariously useless as you may guess.
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  435. Andrew Nenakhov Ge0rG, very imperfect solution, we'll soon switch to better one.
  436. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: I've heard that already, almost a decade ago.
  437. Andrew Nenakhov Not from me. I wasn't around 10 years ago.
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  439. Ge0rG Right.
  440. MattJ Andrew Nenakhov, overview of how your solution would differ?
  441. Andrew Nenakhov That doc I've given you access contains plan of what we do (xep-0XXX, xep-0PPP), it is actually implemented already on server (at least, it passes tests)
  442. Ge0rG Andrew Nenakhov: didn't have the time yet, sorry :(
  443. Andrew Nenakhov No problem, it's a rather long doc with 5 protocols all it Russian
  444. Ge0rG It's not about the Russian, it's about the people who pay me to look at other documents.
  445. UsL : D
  446. Andrew Nenakhov MattJ, overview: Disable offline messages Server stamps IDs and 'true' timestamps on servers Message delivery to server is controlled by receiving server Id by client (as a confirmation) Message delivery to clients is not controlled, client grabs recent state from server on reconnect and fetches required info from server.
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  448. Andrew Nenakhov So far looks to be working. 🤗
  449. jonasw but that only works for <message/>s, right, not for <presence/> and <iq/>?
  450. pep. where's the part about reusing the previous session
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  452. Andrew Nenakhov No reusing previous session!
  453. jonasw so a user with 1000 contacts will get a presence storm when their phone drops off the network for a moment?
  454. Andrew Nenakhov No ) he won't.
  455. jonasw why ont?
  456. jonasw why not?
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  458. Andrew Nenakhov All we re doing is to make an extremely swift reconnect.
  459. pep. How does that work
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  462. Ge0rG swiftly.
  463. pep. I see
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  465. Andrew Nenakhov pep., client requests only those presences that we're changed since client last received presence.
  466. Andrew Nenakhov Swiftly, yes.
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  468. pep. So there's no offline message anymore, do you include MAM in there?
  469. pep. Or were you talking about the thing named offline messages
  470. Andrew Nenakhov Mostly, it's modified mam,yes
  471. Andrew Nenakhov We disable offline messages.
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  484. Andrew Nenakhov By the way, just remembered a very recent heated discussion where one guy was pressing me into 'we are in a 3rd generations of messengers, no longer need presences at all, we are always online'.
  485. Kev I'm surprisingly sympathetic to that view.
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  488. Andrew Nenakhov I understand where it comes from, but don't fully agree.
  489. Kev I think we should strip most stuff out of presence, make it account-wide instead in PEP.
  490. Kev We don't need per-device status messages.
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  492. Kev And having one device DND, one Away, and one Free For Chat is a nonsense.
  493. pep. Andrew Nenakhov, à la Slack/Matrix/Mattermost etc, where everybody is always online? or is this just a side effect of no presence
  494. Kev pep.: But they're not.
  495. Kev Slack makes it very clear whether someone's online or not.
  496. Kev And that is useful.
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  498. Kev It's just not useful to know that they're online on both their desktop and their mobile. Just that they're online.
  499. pep. They're still referenced in the channel even if they're not there anymore
  500. Kev As they are in XMPP with MIX.
  501. pep. Yeah, I don't like that either
  502. edhelas related to MIX, how MIX is handling channels on JIDs, can I create a MIX channel on my own account ?
  503. Kev You can't.
  504. Kev Well, technically you could, but it would be a Bad Idea.
  505. Kev Much as you /could/ host a MUC room on your own JID, but it'd be a Bad Idea.
  506. pep. Kev, what does this feature bring exactly, always being in the room. What can you do that you couldn't without
  507. Kev pep.: See who belongs to the room, and sensibly have synchronisation between clients.
  508. pep. Kev, can you define "belong" in this context
  509. calgromi has left
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  514. flow pep., actively entered the room and was granted to do so before without actively leaving the room or being kicked in the mean time
  515. pep. Ok, what about "X entered roomY, closed his browser without parting, and never came back"
  516. Kev Dead user accounts is a problem everywhere, not just rooms.
  517. marmistrz has left
  518. Kev The same is true in your roster.
  519. pep. but it wasn't the case in muc was it
  520. Kev It was in MUC too, just differently.
  521. Zash membership lists would have that issue
  522. Kev In MUC you ended up with stale affiliation lists.
  523. Zash Right.
  524. pep. True
  525. SamWhited has left
  526. Ge0rG But an affiliation list doesn't cause traffic.
  527. Kev Indeed.
  528. Guus Can we hyjack this room for a quick board meeting please?
  529. pep. never
  530. MattJ brb 30s
  531. Zash Guus, pep. you have 30s to fight for the room :)
  532. pep. :D
  533. Guus hehe
  534. calgromi has left
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  536. pep. prepares the glove
  537. MattJ Time's up
  538. Guus Ralphm, nyco, martin?
  539. ralphm set the topic to XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  540. ralphm bangs gavel
  541. ralphm 0. Welcome and Agenda
  542. ralphm Who's here? What do you have?
  543. Guus Me. A house for sale.
  544. Andrew Nenakhov > Slack makes it very clear whether someone's online or not. > And that is useful. +1 my managers are very unhappy when they don't see who is online on corporate xmpp server
  545. ralphm Rough
  546. MattJ Here
  547. nyco has joined
  548. nyco Meeting
  549. Guus (nothing except for the remainder of the privacy discussion we had last week)
  550. ralphm All right.
  551. ralphm Anyone heard from Martin?
  552. Guus (http://www.abelenstrasingel12.nl <-- it actually _is_ for sale)
  553. Guus nope
  554. Guus nor Nyco for a while
  555. MattJ No - I can try to contact him before the next meeting
  556. MattJ nyco is here
  557. Guus ah, missed that
  558. ralphm MattJ: thanks
  559. Guus waves
  560. ralphm 1. Minutes
  561. ralphm Who can do them?
  562. nyco Here
  563. MattJ I can do them
  564. ralphm Cool
  565. ralphm 2. Continuation of the privacy discussion
  566. ralphm Guus, take it away
  567. Guus ooh, me? 🙂
  568. Guus I'm struggling to remember where we left off last week
  569. rtq3 has left
  570. Guus we discussed gdpr, and forming a team including I think Ralph, and Alex, to do an inventory?
  571. MattJ Looks like we neglected to take minutes of the last meeting?
  572. Guus we neglected to take minutes of the last meeting.
  573. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
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  575. Guus here though: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-05-31/#13:58:50
  576. ralphm MattJ: yeah :-(
  577. MattJ > [14:02:49] <Guus> Let's aim to have a mission statement / member list ready for next week, so that we can procedurally establish the team.
  578. MattJ I guess this was the primary action item
  579. ralphm Yeah, we kinda ran out of time
  580. Guus nonetheless, we could do that now - assuming that no-one thought of an alternative approach since last week?
  581. MattJ No, sounds good to me
  582. ralphm I think in terms of mission statement, it should be somewhere along the lines of: make an inventory of all personal data we (= the XSF) collect, review our Privacy Policy (and make sure it gets back on the website), and see if there's work beyond that.
  583. Guus As for a mission statement (someone put this in proper English please), we're looking for a team that takes the lead in coordinating with board and work teams .. .what he said
  584. ralphm :-D
  585. ralphm Alex: are you around?
  586. Guus first stab: "The GDPR work team's mission is to a) make an inventory of all personal data that is being collected by the XSF b) review our Privacy Policy, and c) suggest improvements to both."
  587. ralphm Anyone have comments on this?
  588. MattJ sgtm
  589. calgromi has left
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  591. nyco Wfm
  592. MattJ As I mentioned last week, such a team will need to overlap with or work with iteam
  593. calgromi has left
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  595. Guus MattJ, most likely - but I'd imagine that the team would ask specific questions to iteam, rather than have iteam worry about what info they should uncover.
  596. calgromi has left
  597. Guus Kev, you here?
  598. j.r has joined
  599. Kev Hmm?
  600. Kev I'm vanishing in about 15 seconds.
  601. Kev What's up?
  602. Guus gdpr / iteam wise, are you comfortable (with iteam hat) to help facilitate another WT to perform an inventory of what GDPR-related data we store in our systems?
  603. Guus (and/or can you suggest a better approach?)
  604. ralphm (or intosi)
  605. Kev If someone asks iteam a straightforward question, I'm fine with us answering it.
  606. Kev I'm not fine with a question of "What stuff do we need to care about from iteam".
  607. ralphm Kev: what personal data do we collect and how is it processed and stored?
  608. Kev I don't think we can answer that without being told what personal data are.
  609. Kev I need to vanish now, back in a few hours.
  610. Guus I'm assuming that GDPR-team and iteam can work on this together, from what I've read just now.
  611. ralphm (where "personal data" is a very broad category, as defined in many legal documents, but roughly, every type of information that is related to a natural person or can be identified with one)
  612. Guus as for the member list of the work team: we agreed last week that it'd be wise to have Alex be part of that team.
  613. Guus Ralph, either you volunteered, or I volunteered you, iirc?
  614. Guus We have various people working on GDPR in context of https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/GDPR
  615. Guus assuming that these contributors meet the work-team member criteria (must be an xsf member, iirc), maybe invite them to join?
  616. Guus The wiki page lists Ge0rG, jonasw, pep., peter.waher & winfried
  617. Guus is anyone else interested?
  618. ralphm Guus: you volunteered me
  619. pep. peter provided feedback on the minutes mostly
  620. MattJ I can be on the team, I'm also on iteam, it will probably help
  621. ralphm I haven't been able to review this page yet. The number of people here is pretty large.
  622. Guus I'm not saying that all of them aught to be on the team
  623. Guus but that group makes a pool of member candidates for the team
  624. ralphm I personally would want involvement of Alex (our Secretary and keeper of company records)
  625. Guus agreed
  626. ralphm Thanks MattJ
  627. MattJ So we're coming up to the end of the meeting time... what members do we have so far?
  628. ralphm In any case, we need to appoint members of this work team. Do we explicitly ask who wants to be on it?
  629. MattJ Me, <potentially Alex>, <some people from the GDPR investigation that was done over the past months>
  630. MattJ Yes, I think we need to ask them before we can include them :)
  631. ralphm I'll keep an eye on things, but I don't think we need a bloated team
  632. muppeth has joined
  633. Guus yeah, 3 or 4 should be more than enough members
  634. Guus Matt, could you ping Alex and the GDPR-gang, see if any of them is interested in joining?
  635. MattJ Can do
  636. Guus we can that formalize next week.
  637. ralphm Thanks!
  638. Guus (don't let that stop you from getting started, if the opportunity arises)
  639. waqas has joined
  640. MattJ No, I'll aim to have a clearer idea of who's on the team by next week
  641. Guus wfm, thanks
  642. ralphm Right, we install the Work Team next week.
  643. ralphm With that:
  644. ralphm 3. AOB?
  645. Guus maybe ping Martin?
  646. ralphm MattJ already said he was going to.
  647. Guus oh, sorry, missed that
  648. Guus nothing from me then
  649. ralphm 4. Date of Next
  650. ralphm +1W
  651. Guus Next week, I'll likely be unavailable.
  652. nyco +1
  653. Guus but please continue without me
  654. jonasw .
  655. MattJ wfm
  656. ralphm Guus: np, you can vote on list
  657. jonasw .
  658. ralphm 5. Close
  659. ralphm Thanks all!
  660. Guus Thank you
  661. ralphm bangs gavel
  662. jonasw I heard my n ame. I can’t promise that I can do a lot in the work team, so I’m hesitant to join
  663. Ge0rG I'm 120% busy ATM
  664. ralphm set the topic to XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  665. jubalh has left
  666. ralphm There's no such thing.
  667. MattJ loadavg 1.2
  668. ralphm You probably mean that you're not slacking unlike normal.
  669. jonasw :D
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  690. jubalh Zash, for some reason cannot join prosody channel right now. quick question: when udpating from 0.9 to 0.10 and having modules_enabled = {"mam"; "carbons", "http_upload"}; how does one decide whether to use the 0.10 mam and carbons and not the ones from prosody modules?
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  692. Zash Symlinks from a different directory is one way.
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  700. jonasw has muclumbus landed somewhere popular?
  701. jonasw requests -- specifically first visits -- went up quite a bit in the last hour
  702. Zash no reffferrrerrrrrsss?
  703. jonasw not in my logs
  704. jonasw although I thought I had
  705. jonasw but maybe people just strip that nowadays
  706. Zash I'm wondering if browsers stopped sending them.
  707. jonasw not for site-local things
  708. jonasw (I see those)
  709. jonasw but maybe for cross-site things, or whatever this is coming from forbids it on the link
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  716. daniel MattJ: what's the state of persistent, configurable pep in prosody?
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  719. pep. > Andrew Nenakhov> +1 my managers are very unhappy when they don't see who is online on corporate xmpp server I don't understand how they get not to see who's online on xmpp
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  731. MattJ daniel, Link Mauve is working on it
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  734. pep. MattJ, I think he's mostly waiting for more feature requests
  735. pep. no?
  736. MattJ daniel, you just need: persistence, publish-options, access control (public, roster, closed) - anything else?
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  741. daniel MattJ: well I'm asking in regards to bookmarks 2 which also requires multi item
  742. daniel I guess
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  744. MattJ multi-item is already supported (in mod_pep_plus, which will probably eventually become mod_pep)
  745. MattJ Best case this makes it into the next major release in a couple of months
  746. daniel And behaves correctly in conjunction with +notify. Although I have no idea what 'correctly' means in that regard
  747. jonasw treat any resource which publishes the corresponding +notify as subscribed?
  748. jonasw (modulo ACLs)
  749. jubalh is the prosody channel gone?
  750. Zash No
  751. MattJ jubalh, https://chat.prosody.im/ as another way to access it
  752. jubalh right, now it works
  753. pep. I see you on it though
  754. jubalh pep., just connected now :)
  755. Zash Prosody itself got OOM'd by a test runner we were experimenting with
  756. Zash Prosody itself got OOM'd yesterday by a test runner we were experimenting with
  757. daniel jonasw: yeah but does it send the last item or only one item on login
  758. daniel Or none of the items
  759. daniel I think none or all makes sense
  760. daniel But pep is usually last
  761. jonasw daniel, what does normal pubsub do?
  762. daniel Although the xep gives you some wiggle room
  763. MattJ "it MUST generate a notification containing at least the last published item for that node and send it to the newly-available resource"
  764. MattJ Right
  765. Guus has left
  766. jonasw so all items is the only option
  767. jonasw (sensible option at least)
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  769. MattJ Interestingly that wouldn't necessarily give you retraction notifications, would it?
  770. jonasw true, but sending a complete itemset gives you that implicitly
  771. MattJ Oh right, <items>
  772. Andrew Nenakhov pep., >I don't understand how they get not to see who's online on xmpp That's simple. I forced them to switch from gajim to early versions of Xabber for Web, which was, at times, weird and buggy. There was a period when presences were not supported at all
  773. daniel jonasw: yeah I'm not sure what the correct way is. But that's something we need to figure out and then prosody should do that. MattJ was asking about requirements and that's one of them even though we don't know yet how it will work exactly
  774. Valerian has left
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  777. pep. Andrew Nenakhov, right, that's not an issue with XMPP then
  778. daniel And I hate bookmarks 2 a bit for doing the multi item thing
  779. daniel Running old and new 48 in parallel would have been so easy
  780. daniel But multi items really complicates things
  781. MattJ If 0048 didn't exist, is multi-item better?
  782. jubalh has left
  783. daniel MattJ: I don't necessarily thing so
  784. daniel It's 'OK' but not sure why it would be better
  785. Zash Less data to send if one bookmark is changed
  786. Guus has left
  787. daniel Zash: yes. But how many bookmarks do you have?
  788. Zash A bunch
  789. pep. ~ 70 here
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  791. jonasw and fewer races
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  793. Zash How often do you change your bookmarks from two clients at once tho?
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  796. daniel But whether or not we think compat with 48 is more challenging we still need to figure out how we want to handle notifications
  797. jonasw Zash, hibernated devices which can only apply changes later are a thing
  798. jonasw Zash, also two clients receiving a MUC invitation and following it
  799. jonasw or receiving a MUC invitation while modifying a bookmark
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  835. moparisthebest https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/114033/how-can-santa-keep-his-lists-when-gdpr-is-around
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  842. jonasw you gotta love worldbuilding
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  845. daniel jonasw: but if two clients publish the same bookmark at the same time multi item will give you two additional bookmarks. Single item will just make the last one win
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  849. daniel Or does it take the jid as id?
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  852. daniel Oh it does
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  923. Link Mauve daniel, oh, are you planning on supporting Bookmarks 2? So far I haven’t heard any compelling reason to do so. (I’m working on a mod_bookmarks for Prosody to synchronise between old and new 0048-style bookmarks, whether I will support Bookmarks 2 too is still unknown, and will mostly depend on whether clients do implement it.)
  924. jonasw Link Mauve, it’s on my todo list for aioxmpp
  925. Link Mauve jonasw, why?
  926. jonasw reduction in raciness of updates of individual bookmark items
  927. jonasw notifications for single items
  928. jonasw both of which simplify things quite a bit
  929. Link Mauve But it’s also missing a bunch of features which were used in 0048, such as shared room passwords (which I only use for gateways, but are still useful to support) or non-MUC bookmarks.
  930. marmistrz has joined
  931. jonasw the latter is definitely a feature for me
  932. jonasw MUC bookmarks have a functional relevance to every IM client supporting MUC, which are most
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  936. jonasw dealing with other bookmarks mixed into that is annoying (and not simplified by the one-object-for-all thing)
  937. Link Mauve jonasw, I might add support for it at some point in Prosody, the goal being to have a single store for bookmarks, and to synchronise all two (three) versions for clients to only pick one favourite.
  938. jonasw regarding shared room passwords, you can probably get that into the xep
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  991. Ge0rG One Store To Rule Them All?
  992. Zash The global blockchain graph database?
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