XSF Discussion - 2018-06-08

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  173. daniel Link Mauve: to answer your question from yesterday. I'm not interested in bookmarks 2 per se but I'm interested in moving bookmarks to pep asap.
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  175. daniel And I'm afraid bookmarks 2 is uncharted territory for a lot of reasons and harder to pull of then 48-on-pep
  176. daniel With only marginal improvements over 48-on-pep
  177. Andrew Nenakhov Do bookmarks have any other use besides storing user's MUCs?
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  181. jonasw Andrew Nenakhov, I think some web folks put website bookmarks in there. Movim and SáT maybe
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  194. Link Mauve jonasw, Movim and SàT put PubSub URIs AFAIK.
  195. Link Mauve jonasw, Movim and SàT put PubSub URIs there AFAIK.
  196. Link Mauve Not web ones, but xmpp: ones.
  197. Link Mauve daniel, that’s also my view of it.
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  201. edhelas I moved my pubsub uris back to a "non standard" pep node for now
  202. edhelas because it was creating conflicts with the clients that are starting to put bookmarks in PEP (all the list in one item) clearing out the Pubsub URIs that Movim saved
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  205. jonasw ah yes, that’s also a nice issue with everything-in-one-item
  206. jonasw it becomes tricky to deal with elements you don’t know, because normally in XMPP you can just drop them
  207. jonasw it becomes tricky to deal with elements you don’t know, because normally in XMPP (as a client) you can just drop them
  208. jonasw in this case you need to preserve them
  209. edhelas yup
  210. jonasw this would be much easier with one-item-per-bookmark, because you can just ignore items you don’t know and only update those you do know
  211. daniel jonasw: if it's just about that you can very easily do that with regular bookmarks as well
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  213. daniel Conversations just ignores anything it doesn't know
  214. jonasw it /can/ be done, but it’s not straightforward
  215. Ge0rG I want to have bookmarklets, which can execute code in the context of the current MUC.
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  217. jonasw yeah, I’m pretty sure that aioxmpp drops everything not in XEP-0048
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  219. Wiktor Ge0rG: what would they exactly do? send some text?
  220. jonasw so if you’re using neither <url/> nor <conference/>, it gets lost
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  225. Link Mauve Wiktor, for instance your password.
  226. Link Mauve I remember both Jappix and Empathy were victims of such RCE.
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  228. Wiktor Oh, I didn't get the joke.
  229. Link Mauve :p
  230. Wiktor I was thinking about mIRC scripts ;)
  231. jonasw do I want to know, Link Mauve?
  232. jonasw (yes, I do)
  233. Link Mauve jonasw, https://usn.ubuntu.com/1250-1/
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  235. jonasw ah, but that wasn’t about bookmarks
  236. Link Mauve Basically, /nick <img src=invalid onerror="alert('Hello world!')">
  237. Link Mauve Ah, no.
  238. jonasw good ol’ HTML nicknames
  239. Link Mauve I wouldn’t exclude bookmark names from being vulnerable to that kind of things, in web clients. ^^'
  240. Link Mauve … I should have such a bookmark in my test account!
  241. jonasw gotta love the web
  242. jonasw clever
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  342. goffi https://github.com/git-federation/gitpub ==> and now they re-invent something on activityPub, it's a pitty to see coming a missed occasion for XMPP, once again.
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  344. jonasw goffi, is it missed already though?
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  346. goffi if gitlab, gogs and gittea are following, pretty much yes.
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  348. jonasw although, I can’t blame web applications for not wanting to run another daemon
  349. jonasw we’d need a proper solution for stabily running a client or server or component in common web frameworks
  350. jonasw goffi, maybe you could contribute there and turn it around?
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  354. goffi jonasw: I'm already working on XMPP based web framework, and I'm doing it on my freetime, I can't fight at all fronts.
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  471. Ge0rG Dark corners of XMPP. Lection #23: prosody will put 0184 ACKs from some clients into MAM, but not from others. It depends on whether they are type=chat.
  472. Bunneh Ge0rG: Submit first draft of Mobile Considerations #23 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/23
  473. Ge0rG Bunneh: Uhm, no.
  474. jonasw :D
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  477. Ge0rG Same for Carbons. At least it's consistent.
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  479. jonasw now that’s
  480. jonasw now that’s news
  481. daniel Ge0rG: are carbons ever type Chat though?
  482. Ge0rG daniel: dunno. Weren't you sending chat carbons?
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  484. daniel Ge0rG: why would I send carbons of any type?
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  486. Ge0rG if not(orig_type == "chat" or (orig_type == "normal" and stanza:get_child("body")) ) then you_shall_not_carbon_mam(); end
  487. Ge0rG Oh, wait.
  488. Ge0rG daniel: I mean: Weren't you sending chat *acks*?
  489. Ge0rG Same holds true for markers and any other bodyless messages.
  490. Holger Type chat without body should be carboned but not MAM-stored right?
  491. daniel Ja deliberately make them type chat yes
  492. Ge0rG Holger: who said that=
  493. Holger The XEPs?
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  495. Ge0rG CSNs are defined as `chat`.
  496. Ge0rG Holger: now you make me sad.
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  499. flow Ge0rG, have a cookie
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  502. Ge0rG Holger: sad because of https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/434
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  504. jonasw Ge0rG, do some work on https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0409.html
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  506. Ge0rG jonasw: sure, when MIX is finished.
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  508. jonasw since when do you care about MIX?
  509. Holger Ge0rG: Ah, routing 2.0 will fix everything.
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  511. Ge0rG Holger: 0280 rules tl;dr are "a server may do anything, or not do it, or make demons fly out of your nose and be compliant"
  512. Ge0rG 0313 only asks for <body> messages to be archived
  513. Ge0rG I'm not sure why anybody would want to archive any <chat> messages.
  514. jonasw I am reading that xep for the first time now, and I like how it handles the NG vs. non-NG interop
  515. Ge0rG jonasw: it's really intriguing, I'll need to think it through thoroughly
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  517. jonasw Kev has done some good work there, I expected much less given the time frame in which it was done.
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  519. Holger Ge0rG: > I'm not sure why anybody would want to archive any <chat> messages. You mean why people would *not* want to archive bodyless chat messages?
  520. Kev "Kev ... I expected much less" Story of my life.
  521. jonasw c’mon :)
  522. jonasw do you think we can get a <stanza-id/> in the mandatory reflection to all resources?
  523. jonasw (on the sender side)
  524. jonasw that would be truly amazing
  525. Kev Yes, but is that MAM or routing?
  526. Ge0rG Holger: No, I mean why people *would* want to archive bodyless chat messages.
  527. Holger Read markers for example?
  528. Ge0rG Holger: also CSNs
  529. jonasw Kev, good question; I would like to have it mandatory for every service implementing MAM though. this avoids us having to namespace-bump MAM.
  530. jonasw i.e. make it mandatory in IM-NG for a service which also offers any XEP-0313 namespace to put <stanza-id/> in the reflections
  531. Ge0rG Holger: not sure if you heard of it, but MAM storage of CSN made my MAM DB explode and yax.im melt down, just recently
  532. Ge0rG Kev: mandatory stanza IDs for "important" messages are good enough for me, so MAM > routing
  533. Holger Ge0rG: I haven't, but not storing read markers sucks UX-wise and I'm sure there are more examples.
  534. Ge0rG Holger: so we have two examples now of things that are of the same type but needs to be handled differently. What now?
  535. Kev Holger: I have thoughts on that too, but I've not written them up yet.
  536. Ge0rG ACKs are of type=undefined, so even more meh.
  537. Kev But I think that you want your archive to be collating such things rather than storing verbatim.
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  539. Ge0rG Kev: that sounds like a database synchronization problem. Send deltas, update internal state.
  540. Holger Yes such optimizations would be nice. I'm just saying that throwing this stuff away is not a good solution.
  541. jonasw oh, it’s in there already: > When reflecting an IM-NG client's outbound bare-JID messages, the server SHOULD reflect the archived version (i.e. after any transforms have taken place).
  542. jonasw IIRC the archived version contains the <stanza-id/>
  543. Ge0rG jonasw: yes, it should
  544. jonasw it should or it SHOULD?
  545. Ge0rG jonasw: don't ask me these questions please. It's friday and I'm having tremendous "fun" at work already.
  546. Ge0rG I only started this because it bothered me that I didn't see ACKs of messages on my other client.
  547. jonasw here, have a cookie
  548. jonasw 🍪
  549. Ge0rG And there is no easy solution.
  550. jonasw and you should please appreciate that I pasted you a cookie because you know how much that makes my poezio behave weird!
  551. Ge0rG jonasw: sorry, but cookies trigger me since the GDPR faux-compliance of ignorant americans made cookie dialogs look like good UX
  552. Ge0rG really sorry.
  553. jonasw 🍉
  554. jonasw some cool water melon maybe?
  555. Ge0rG jonasw: since running emoji_ascii the situation has considerably improved for me. Except for the jabber❌namespace.
  556. jonasw Ge0rG, you’re not alone, github does it too: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/664
  557. Ge0rG it's a rainy 18°C here. But I had to change my munin cpu temp warning threshold from 70° to 80°
  558. jonasw right, I forgot that only Dresden seems to be shielded from the bad^Wgood and plant-saving weather
  559. Ge0rG LOL
  560. jonasw
  561. jonasw then that maybe^?
  562. Ge0rG that made my day.
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  564. jonasw Ge0rG, finally found something good for you \o/
  565. Ge0rG next time somebody complains, I'll point at that issue
  566. jonasw I need to re-write the commit message, because I’m going to be complaining a lot ;-)
  567. Ge0rG I've had a 1.5h conference call today, where the application owner and me tried to explain to the indian chief developer that exposing an SQL-like API over the internet, with some regex filters strapped on top for access control, just doesn't cut it.
  568. Ge0rG The final words of the app owner were "I hope we are aligned now"
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  570. Ge0rG not sure if it was a command or a threat.
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  572. Ge0rG But back to the topic. Even with IM-NG, we'll still have to define rules for handling of legacy messages
  573. Ge0rG So back to https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/434
  574. Ge0rG Would it make sense to make 0184 and others use type=chat?
  575. Ge0rG or type=<type of what you respond to>?
  576. Ge0rG MUC ACKs should go to the MUC, so that we get O(n²), right?
  577. jonasw Ge0rG, the rules are defined in there: > In order for interoperability with other entities (contacts, remote servers etc.) that don't support IM-NG, old-style full-JID messages also need to be handled. When a server receives a message with type other than than 'groupchat' or 'headline' that does not contain an <im-ng xmlns='urn:xmpp:im-ng:0'> element it is to be routed by the above rules as if they were sent to the bare JID
  578. jonasw plus: > Any message that is routed to all IM-NG clients is stored in the MAM archive, where available, and any message that would not be routed to all IM-NG clients is not stored in the MAM archive
  579. jonasw so if to bare JID => archived and copied. if to full JID and not groupchat and not headline => archived and copied. if to full JID and (groupchat or headline) => routed to full JID
  580. Ge0rG What about CSNs?
  581. jonasw are they of type headline or groupchat?
  582. Ge0rG type=chat.
  583. jonasw archived and copied.
  584. Kev At the Summit we discussed that they should really be presence rather than messages, FWIW.
  585. jonasw I’ll make you a flow chart, Ge0rG.
  586. Ge0rG jonasw: no thanks
  587. jonasw :)
  588. jonasw Kev, that, too
  589. Ge0rG jonasw: my question wasn't "what happens to CSNs under these rules". I was able to figur that out on my own, I think. My intention was "what *should* happen to them, as the rules are obviously inadequate"
  590. Valerian has joined
  591. jonasw Ge0rG, ah, put them into presence
  592. jonasw that seems like a good solution for me
  593. Ge0rG so the IM-NG server will translate directed presence with a CSN into a message on the border, and back?
  594. jonasw need to think about implications of sending directed presence all the time, but on the first order this seems like a good thingf
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  596. jonasw Ge0rG, uh, interesting idea :)
  597. Ge0rG directed presence will get cached on the server, right?
  598. jonasw (but I was actually talking generally. clients should put them into presence)
  599. jonasw directed presence is tricky
  600. Ge0rG Yeah, so while you are constructing the IM-NG New World Order, I'm not receiving Carbons of my ACKs!
  601. Kev The other idea I have floating around is having <transient/>, which is rougly <no-store/>, and carefully speccing that a CSN is <transient/>, and that anything that is <transient/> and "shouldn't be" shouldn't be processed by a client.
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  603. Kev So that you can't e.g. inject <transient/> in a chat stanza in order to maliciously evade archiving.
  604. jonasw that sounds quite fragile
  605. Ge0rG > maliciously evade archiving. That is very evil.
  606. Kev Because <no-store/> that your server listens to and your client doesn't care about is obviously bad.
  607. jonasw but it might be worthwhile to have that
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  609. jonasw I mean provision this in IM-NG so that servers support it right away.
  610. Ge0rG Ephemeral Messages are doomed now.
  611. Kev jonasw: Which that. My floaty idea, or the thing I say is bad?
  612. jonasw and so that clients drop it right away
  613. jonasw your floaty idea
  614. Kev Third idea is that we requisition headline.
  615. jonasw lemme rephrase: The <transient/> thing sounds a bit fragile, but it might be worthwhile to put that into IM-NG right away because it’s likely that we’ll need such a thing down the road.
  616. Kev But now we're getting into even dodgier territory, potentially.
  617. Ge0rG What about we define a list of rules which messages are to be handled as transient, like in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0280.html#which-messages
  618. jonasw I’m not 100% sure about CSN-in-<presence/> either, because that has interesting implications regarding directed presence and things which do things with directed presence (MUC, Invisible Command, …)
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  620. Kev Ge0rG: Because it's important that we don't have a situation where a server's MAM implementation needs complete knowledge of all standard and non-standard extensions.
  621. jonasw I’m not 100% sure about CSN-in-<presence/> either, because that potentially has interesting implications regarding directed presence and things which do things with directed presence (MUC, Invisible Command, …)
  622. jonasw (again)
  623. Kev But if we go with 'floaty idea', you have more or less that, without the server problem.
  624. jonasw then only the client needs to know about it, and that is probably fine because it needs to know about the message payload anyways to do something sane with it
  625. Kev The server listens to the <transient/> flag, and the client is responsible for checking that a message that should be archived wasn't received without it.
  626. Kev jonasw: Right.
  627. Ge0rG Kev: so that client-side message processing has two stages. Stage 1 is for all messages, and may not add anything to the database, and stage 2 is for non-transient messages only and may add new items?
  628. jonasw what
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  630. Ge0rG And there is a huge fat `// WARNING! NO PERSISTENCE ABOVE THIS COMMENT` line in between?
  631. Kev Ge0rG: There's a few ways one could implement it, but something like that would work.
  632. jonasw I’d probably go more with: a general stage which works like the servers MAM (i.e. ignore anything with <transient/> on it) and down the road in the pipeline some component might add something to the database in response to a message which was <transient/> if and only if it makes sense to do so
  633. jonasw but in general you wouldn’t persist <transient/> stuff anyways
  634. jonasw that’s the point of transient. I mean you could have been offline at the time and wouldn’t have gotten the message, so storing it seems not needed in any case
  635. Kev I'd probably go with an initial screen process that rejects any stanza that doesn't verify the right transientness for the present payloads, but yes, any of these work.
  636. Kev (Lot a literal forked process, obviously)
  637. Kev (Not a literal forked process, obviously)
  638. jonasw Kev, I’m going to dump you a bit of commentary on XEP-0409 on the list in a minute btw
  639. Kev Ok. Be kind :)
  640. jonasw will be
  641. jonasw I’ll add a few points I already raised in this discussion so that we have them on-record somewhere
  642. Ge0rG I hope nobody ever asks *me* to be kind on-list :D
  643. Ge0rG jonasw: excellent!
  644. jonasw Ge0rG, why would anyone? you’re the personified kindness.
  645. jonasw Ge0rG, but not all points, I wasn’t paying attention consistently
  646. Ge0rG jonasw: you just grilled my sarcasm detector.
  647. jonasw Ge0rG, double-strike
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