XSF Discussion - 2018-06-11

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  126. Ge0rG moparisthebest: the ideas of the GDPR are slowly making it into US state legislation... https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2018/06/new_data_privac.html
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  202. UsL US should do article 13 as well. It's awesome. It'll be the best internet.
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  206. Ge0rG Damn, 0308 is in Draft.
  207. jonasw what did you want to change?
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  211. Ge0rG jonasw: the biz rules. - allow modifications from other full JIDs of the same user - say that a correction that doesn't qualify shall be displayed like a normal message
  212. Ge0rG jonasw: #2 is what Klaus just adressed on standards@
  213. jonasw > A correction MUST only be allowed when both the original message and correction are received from the same full-JID.
  214. jonasw oh yes, this needs fixing
  215. jonasw whoever thought that was a great idea... possibly due to MUC.
  216. jonasw I think that any message which doesn’t qualify for the business rules is displayed normally is kinda implicit
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  219. Kev > whoever thought that was a great idea MUC, mostly, but we can loosen the words for non-MUC.
  220. jonasw yeah
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  223. rainslide Why not make GDPR support into a plugin?
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  226. edhelas if only
  227. Ge0rG rainslide: one can not simply module:load legal compliance.
  228. rainslide I don't konw my Chinese forum uses which program, it show me a GDPR just now…
  229. rainslide GDPR can be spreaded though software😂
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  231. vanitasvitae <gdpr xmlns='urn:xmpp:legal:gdpr:0' compliant='true'/>
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  233. MattJ "It showed me a GDPR just now" -> "a GDPR" is not a large pop-up
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  235. Seve/SouL Hey kid, got GDPR?
  236. edhelas vanitasvitae thanks for the tip! I'll enable it in my client now
  237. Ge0rG GDPR is a software-transmitted disease. A so-called STD.
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  256. pep. I guess for now we're at <gdpr xmlns='urn:xmpp:legal:gdpr:0' compliant='maybe' />
  257. Ge0rG My employer's website redirects you to `about:blank` if you deny the cookie popup. I was ashamed to find that out.
  258. Ge0rG I was even more ashamed when the DPO told me this is by design.
  259. pep. :(
  260. pep. Is it even allowed
  261. Ge0rG He said yes. We are not required to make business with people who don't want to be tracked.
  262. pep. great
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  267. Wiktor IANAL but... > More importantly, organizations can't restrict website usability or services based on whether or not consent was granted. Source: http://www.dmnews.com/retail-week/gdpr-cookies-personal-data/article/738977/ > For example, a bank that asks for its customers’ consent to use their payment details for marketing purposes, but denies banking services or increases fees if consent is not granted, would be exerting inappropriate pressure. The GDPR does not absolutely prohibit offering services conditioned on consent to data processing, but per Recital 43, any consent so provided is presumed invalid, and the Working Party notes that “[valid] cases will be highly exceptional.” Source: https://iapp.org/news/a/top-10-operational-responses-to-the-gdpr-part-2-lawful-bases-for-processing/
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  272. pep. Just like facebook's policy is not legal because it forces you into accepting their crap processing or nothing
  273. pep. But then IANAL either
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  275. Wiktor yep, let's just prepare a lot of popcorn and see what happens to them :)
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  277. daniel > My employer's website redirects you to `about:blank` if popup. I was ashamed to find that out. Isn't the real scandal that you can redirect to about: pages? That seems dangerous
  278. Ge0rG Wiktor: I agree with you here, but my two coworkers who have undergone GDPR training disagree.
  279. Ge0rG daniel: it's just a regular link
  280. pep. daniel, what's the issue with that
  281. pep. I can redirect you to file:///home/foo/bar, that doesn't mean I can do anything about it
  282. daniel pep.: I can't point my finger at something in particular. But that doesn't _right_
  283. Wiktor I know Ge0rG, I'm just trying to find supporting text for all these issues as I'm curious myself (but fortunately I don't have this problem now).
  284. Ge0rG pep.: you can check the color value of the link via JavaScript to see if you opened it in the past, and whether the file might exist :P
  285. pep. Ge0rG, interesting
  286. pep. Ge0rG, hmm, but I won't be able to do that via redirecting you there right
  287. pep. Ge0rG, hmm, but I won't be able to do that by redirecting you there right
  288. Wiktor Ge0rG: I think this was fixed in 2010: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/Privacy_and_the_:visited_selector
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  290. Ge0rG There are so many things in "the web" that undermine security, we should just bury it all in Lake Karachay
  291. rainslide > He said yes. We are not required to make business with people who don't want to be tracked. And they hire them, sometimes.
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  293. Ge0rG Wiktor: yes, but there is a gazillion of other side channels
  294. Wiktor Ge0rG: could you give an example?
  295. pep. daniel, what's interesting is the other way around, https://mathiasbynens.github.io/rel-noopener/
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  297. Ge0rG Wiktor: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/05/chrome-and-firefox-leaks-let-sites-steal-visitors-facebook-names-profile-pics/
  298. Wiktor ah css mix-blend-mode
  299. Wiktor will probably be fixed just like leaking :active
  300. Ge0rG Wiktor: https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/css-code-can-be-abused-to-collect-sensitive-user-data/
  301. Ge0rG web security is a huge game of whack-a-mole. And sometimes I'm not sure if we aren't the moles.
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  303. Wiktor isn't this true for software in general?
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  305. Wiktor web is just "used software" and complex software so it has more vulnerabilities discovered
  306. Ge0rG Wiktor: software in general is doing okay, but the web is a fractal of insecurity.
  307. Wiktor this is just survivorship bias
  308. Ge0rG Wiktor: the web browser is an attempt to rebuild the desktop operating system, but with the sole intent to load and execute malicious code from third parties.
  309. Ge0rG it doesn't help that all three major web operating system vendors are either in the tracking-users business or paid by this business.
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  311. Wiktor > sole intent to load and execute malicious code from third parties [citation needed]
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  317. Wiktor the code is as malicious as any other piece of software can be
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  320. Wiktor do you claim Firefox and Mozilla are in this just because they want you to execute "malicious code from third parties"?
  321. Ge0rG Wiktor: do you remember the time when famil members just downloaded random .scr files from the internet because "that screen saver was so awesome"?
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  323. Ge0rG Wiktor: firefox ships with JavaScript enabled, so yes.
  324. Wiktor yep, that scr could be malicious too
  325. Wiktor little evil johnny castaway
  326. Ge0rG Wiktor: it took a while for users to learn that, the hard way.
  327. Wiktor and now they're learning on the web...
  328. Ge0rG Wiktor: but now, they are doing 90% of their work in a web browser, which is designed and optimized to load and execute malicious JavaScript
  329. Ge0rG Now please tell me that not all JS is malicious.
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  331. Wiktor is it?
  332. pep. enables NoScript
  333. pep. Ge0rG, not all JS is malicious!
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  335. Ge0rG Wiktor: the typical modern web page has 5kb of JS to animate the menus, which depends on 1MB of jquery, and a dozen or two of different tracking services embedded
  336. Zash Not all X!!
  337. Ge0rG And any of those tracking service may do anything to your website.
  338. Wiktor yes, so what? this is just bad design, last time I read ECMAScript spec it didn't require me to put trackers on my page to achieve "malicious JavaScript" badge
  339. Ge0rG Oh, did I mention those pages that allow third-party live bidding platforms to sell code execution rights to shady companies that will redirect you to a "YOU HAVE WON!!!111!" page, delete your back-history and deploy the vibration alert?
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  341. Wiktor your computer allows shady things, do you consider it malicious too?
  342. Ge0rG Wiktor: "this is just bad design" is a statement that applies to the modern web.
  343. pep. Somebody mentioned Intel ME?
  344. Wiktor haha, yes, Intel ME
  345. Ge0rG Wiktor: which brings me directly back to my initial statement, which you just proved :P
  346. pep. And AMD's whatever
  347. Zash Computers are teh wurst
  348. Wiktor bad design on part of the site developer, you cannot claim that if your observed set is composed only out of white swans that black swans do not exist
  349. Ge0rG with I-ME, at least *only Intel* can execute code on my box without me knowing.
  350. pep. Zash, potatoes!
  351. Zash Let's just all become potato farmers
  352. pep. Ge0rG, are you even sure of that
  353. Ge0rG Zash: ITYM Teewurst <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teewurst>.
  354. Ge0rG pep.: sure of what?
  355. pep. *only Intel*
  356. pep. I mean,
  357. pep. Intel could proxy to third-parties. Just like these websites allows third-parties in
  358. Ge0rG pep.: only Intel and the state actors that coerced them.
  359. pep. Intel could proxy to third-parties. Just like these websites allow third-parties in
  360. pep. :)
  361. pep. Sounds better
  362. Ge0rG pep.: but at least they need to intercept the laptop shipping to me and inject the payload manually
  363. Ge0rG pep.: my laptop doesn't come asking for malware whenever I surf to a news site.
  364. Wiktor Intel ME can be updated though ethernet, even when the computer is powered off (but not plugged off the grid)
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  368. rainslide > isn't this true for software in general? Maybe true for all general stuffs in large scale.
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  371. rainslide News next decade: Intel becomes the largest tracker (?)
  372. pep. I bet that's already true to some extent
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  416. labdsf I have read the logs about ephemeral messages from http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/2018-06-07/
  417. labdsf Just in case, I am the author of this protoxep
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  423. Ge0rG hey labdsf, welcome :)
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  427. labdsf so far, the main concern is that nested <ephemeral> contents is hard to implement and does not guarantee anything anyway as some clients will store raw XML?
  428. jonasw hi labdsf
  429. jonasw labdsf, yes, that is definitely a conceprn
  430. jonasw labdsf, yes, that is definitely a concern
  431. Ge0rG labdsf: I can't speak for the other Council members; my personal concern is that it is not clear how it is supposed to work in multi-client scenarios.
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  434. labdsf as for the threat model, it is indeed "stolen device" attack only, nothing more, all parts of the conversation trust each other
  435. Ge0rG labdsf: I already have a hard time removing messages from server-side MAM after 14 days ;)
  436. labdsf Ge0rG, timer setting synchronization part?
  437. labdsf or starting of the timer on the recipient side?
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  439. Ge0rG labdsf: starting of the timer. Also, with a <no-store/> hint, the message will only be delivered to clients that are online at the time of transmission
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  441. labdsf it is no-permanent-store in the specification, whatever it means
  442. Ge0rG labdsf: so if my mobile is connected at the time, it will get a copy; if it's not connected, it won't.
  443. labdsf and it is for plaintext only
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  445. labdsf is there any practical difference between no-permanent-store and no-store?
  446. Ge0rG No idea.
  447. Ge0rG MAM only mentions no-store, in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0313.html#hints
  448. Ge0rG labdsf: with the current MAM and XMPP "design", it's not possible to know when all clients have received a given message, so no-permanent-store doesn't make much sense
  449. labdsf according to https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0334.html#no-permanent-store , no-permanent-store messages should not be stored in MUC
  450. labdsf MAM*
  451. Holger Yes the idea is "only in the offline spool".
  452. labdsf so if no client is offline, it will be stored for offline delivery
  453. Ge0rG So it still breaks the multi-client use case.
  454. Holger Yes.
  455. Ge0rG MattJ had a nice idea to keep a per-client offline spool, backed by the MAM store. That would break as well.
  456. labdsf it does not break it completely, but we need a better replacement for offline message delivery than MAM for it to work
  457. labdsf so each device can register on the server and have its own message queue
  458. labdsf when all devices got the messages, they are removed
  459. Ge0rG labdsf: yes, that would be great. Except if you drop your device into a beer keg and messages for that device get stored forever.
  460. Holger Ge0rG: I'd burn no-permanent-store with fire, but as you recently told me hints were burnt down altogether anyway.
  461. labdsf Ge0rG, unregister it after 2 weeks of inactivity
  462. Ge0rG labdsf: not a bad idea
  463. Ge0rG But we aren't there yet.
  464. Ge0rG Maybe we can fix it with IM-NG
  465. labdsf Signal actually has this model, it allows you to register the first device with SMS, then register additional devices using already registered one
  466. labdsf device is unregistered after one week
  467. Ge0rG I thought Signal has a single-device model?
  468. labdsf no
  469. labdsf it is WhatsApp that has single-device
  470. Ge0rG We need to establish a device-registration XEP.
  471. labdsf Signal allows you to register the phone with SMS, then register desktop by scanning its QR code, then shutdown the phone and use desktop
  472. Ge0rG Until then, I just use the resource string as a device identifier.
  473. edhelas labdsf afaik, you can't shutdown the phone no
  474. Ge0rG labdsf: and the desktop is a full device, like the phone is?
  475. labdsf yes
  476. edhelas because the phone is just acting a a proxy for the desktop
  477. labdsf edhelas, you are talking about WhatsApp
  478. edhelas ah yeah sorry
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  480. labdsf Signal is different, you can shutdown the phone
  481. Ge0rG What a feature.
  482. labdsf WhatsApp starts displaying the message that your phone has disconnected above the "roster"
  483. labdsf I think we can postpone implementation of plaintext ephemeral messages or at least disable them by default until we have better Signal-like offline message delivery
  484. Zash "Signal-like" means?
  485. labdsf multiple queues, one per device
  486. labdsf messages are removed as soon as you download them
  487. Zash Ugh
  488. labdsf or after one week if you don't
  489. Zash .... isn't that because it doesn't support multiple devices?
  490. Ge0rG labdsf: another point: I can see why you wrapped the <body> into <ephemeral>, but I'm not convinced of this approach. It will interact in non-obvious ways with things like OMEMO
  491. labdsf it does, I just described above
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  493. labdsf Ge0rG, in case of OMEMO you place <encrypted><payload>...</payload>...</encrypted> inside <ephemeral>
  494. edhelas we need to go deeper
  495. Ge0rG labdsf: yes; so you need to parse <ephemeral> for everything that's allowed in a <message>, except with a timer attached.
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  498. Ge0rG labdsf: what if I send a Read Marker inside <ephemeral>? Will the conversation show up as un-read after the time?
  499. Ge0rG or is there a white-list of tags that are allowed inside of <ephemeral>?
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  502. labdsf I expect that <ephemeral> is only used when you explicitly send a message
  503. Ge0rG is a corner case specialist.
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  506. Ge0rG I should get that printed onto my business cards, to give people a fair advance warning.
  507. MattJ sends Ge0rG inside an <ephemeral>
  508. Ge0rG MattJ: so what's my TTL, then?
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  510. MattJ integer overlow
  511. Ge0rG MattJ: do you have the eyes of a Shinigami?
  512. MattJ integer overflow
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  519. labdsf As mentioned in https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/omemo-media-sharing.html we already have https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0373.html that does stanza encryption
  520. labdsf <ephemeral> is no different from <openpgp> except that content is not encrypted
  521. labdsf but then we can have <ephemeral><openpgp><ephemeral>... which will be hard to implement if OpenPGP is a plugin
  522. labdsf various plugins trying to wrap the messages in unspecified order will be a problem
  523. Ge0rG And then all that is wrapped in <forwarded><sent> to your mobile device.
  524. Ge0rG > https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/omemo-media-sharing.html Please don't even get me started about `if (message.startsWith("aesgcm://")) { ... }`
  525. Ge0rG and what is an "OMEMO message"?
  526. Ge0rG daniel: what were you smoking?
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  529. Ge0rG I mean, I can understand how this results from "we don't need to wrap anything but the <body> into OMEMO".
  530. labdsf in any case, if you *receive* an ephemeral read marker, the conversation becomes read and the marker is not stored in logs
  531. Ge0rG And there is certain merit in producing working code over good specifications; but now might be a good time to rewind and fix this.
  532. jonasw Ge0rG, if this is about encrypting whole stanzas, yeah, let’s do that.
  533. Ge0rG labdsf: but then later the conversation needs to become un-read again when the marker times out, right?
  534. jonasw but I heard it’s not as easy as you’d think
  535. labdsf Ge0rG, no
  536. Ge0rG needs to invent some other interesting corner cases.
  537. labdsf it just becomes read forever
  538. Ge0rG ephemeral Pubsub posts!
  539. MattJ I like the idea of being able to temporarily correct messages
  540. edhelas Ge0rG it already exists, it's called PEP with one item per node :p
  541. MattJ It's called restarting Prosody
  542. Kev MattJ: What about temporarily adding a reference to a message?
  543. Ge0rG MattJ: thanks for making me sad.
  544. edhelas MattJ +1 :D
  545. MattJ Probably making Link Mauve sad, he already implemented persistence :)
  546. Ge0rG in trunk?
  547. MattJ In trunk
  548. Ge0rG I'm running two dozens of half-baked half-broken half-experimental modules on my server, I can't upgrade to trunk!
  549. daniel > And there is certain merit in producing working code over good specifications; but now might be a good time to rewind and fix this. If you read the entire xep the introduction clearly states that
  550. Ge0rG daniel: touché
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  552. pep. Ge0rG, I'm sure you can upgrade to trunk and still benefit from another dozen of half-baked half-broken half-experimental modules :P
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  554. edhelas all our projects are not half-baked half-broken half-experimental in the end ?
  555. Ge0rG pep.: maybe, but I don't want to introduce even more half-baked-ness.
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  563. labdsf Ok, so to summarize, I need to 1) add threat model to "security considerations" 2) write "implementation notes" that say plaintext ephemeral messages should be disabled unless the server advertises reliable no-permanent-store offline message delivery mechanism 3) think about moving message contents outside the <ephemeral> if it makes implementation too complicated
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  565. labdsf Ge0rG, by the way it does not matter whether you place chat state notification inside <ephemeral> or outside of it as long as <ephemeral> is present in the message
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  569. labdsf what is the procedure to update ProtoXEP? Just sumbit a pull request?
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  572. jonasw labdsf, there is not really a procedure. you can submit a PR, yes, I’ll merge the update.
  573. jonasw unfortunately. I would prefer if that happened under Experimental, because there *is no procedure* for anything there.
  574. jonasw I won’t send an update email for example like I’d do for Experimental XEPs
  575. labdsf hmm
  576. Ge0rG jonasw: the XEP was rejected
  577. jonasw but the war on whether we want to "have XEPs in Experimental early and develop there" or "ProtoXEPs must be very promising / very good to accept" is not fought out yet
  578. jonasw Ge0rG, I am aware
  579. jonasw Ge0rG, what are you telling me?
  580. jonasw you saying I should reject the update on that ground?
  581. Ge0rG so it's hanging around in inbox now, and I suppose it could get the PRs applied and the author could kindly ask the editot to resubmit it for a vote
  582. Ge0rG or the Council.
  583. jonasw exactly
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  585. jonasw that’s what’s effectively happening whenever things in inbox get updated
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  587. Ge0rG labdsf: so please make a PR to address all Council issues
  588. Ge0rG labdsf: and then let us know
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  605. Kev > but the war on whether we want to "have XEPs in Experimental early and develop there" or "ProtoXEPs must be very promising / very good to accept" is not fought out yet It is, though.
  606. jonasw it comes up on the list about once a month, doesn’t it?
  607. Kev Usual criteria for Experimental is only "Not obviously wrong", "Confusing as hell" or "duplicating existing stuff for no good reason".
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  609. jonasw soo... if I have a XEP which is very confusing and duplicates everything, I’m in? ;-)
  610. Kev Certainly noting as much as 'must be very good or very promising' has ever been enforced, of which I'm aware.
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  613. Kev Yes, that's exactly what I meant, of course :p
  614. jonasw sorry, I had to take that one after I had a similar negation issue the other day on the same topic:)
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  757. labdsf Ge0rG, we cannot use resource string as device identifier, sadly
  758. jonasw labdsf, why?
  759. labdsf Gajim by default has $rand part that is regenerated on each connection
  760. jonasw yeah, gajim needs fixing then :)
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  763. labdsf maybe
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  766. labdsf if all major clients are fixed to use somewhat permanent resources, it may be easy enough to implement offline message queues in prosody
  767. jonasw labdsf, MattJ is working on that, kinda
  768. jonasw regarding fixing clients, please file issues
  769. Guus has left
  770. goffi why a client should have a permanent resource ? I thought it was seen as bad practice at some point. And using resource to identity a client doesn't smells like a good idea.
  771. labdsf goffi, we need to understand why is it a bad practice
  772. goffi if it's needed, a random ID generated once by client and put in some disco sounds better to me.
  773. labdsf my guess is that using non-random is a bad practice, not permanent
  774. labdsf because you may want to use to Gajims, for example
  775. Zash Fixed strings like "Gajim" or "Conversations" or "mobile" are meh.
  776. goffi would be nice to have some input on that, SàT is also using random resource by default (well, actually resource chosed by server).
  777. jonasw goffi, like Zash says, a *predictable* string is bad. a string which identifies a client (of a user) uniquely (but unpredictably) is good
  778. jonasw so gajim-dg6jqVpjVI6, generated once at account setup, is good
  779. jonasw it helps the server re-identify the client right after bind
  780. goffi Zash: I actually find handy to have something like "mobile" when I want to access this device directly, why would is it bad ?
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  784. jonasw goffi, you can detect the mobile-ness of a device via disco#info
  785. jonasw parsing the resource string is awful for that
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  787. Zash jonasw: lets me guess it and send stuff directly to your phone. also you'll have a bad time if you ever get a second phone
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  789. goffi jonasw: yes, but if I have several mobiles, and I want to retrieve picture from one in particular ?
  790. jonasw goffi, disco#info can have names in it
  791. jonasw allow users to set proper disco#info names
  792. jonasw (and default them to something sensible)
  793. goffi hum, disco#info can be nice indeed
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  795. jonasw and the name can even be internationalised!
  796. goffi in resource too
  797. jonasw no
  798. jonasw you can only have one resource
  799. jonasw but you can have many <identity/> items, one for each language
  800. goffi ah ok, I thought you were thinking about non ascii chars.
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  806. goffi anyway, a XEP or something official givin advices on resource chosing would be a good think.
  807. jonasw true
  808. jonasw an Informational document would be good
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  819. Ge0rG goffi: I've written out the arguments for a prefixed random-on-account-creation resource string numerous times in the past, including the "human readable for debugging" argument
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  825. jonasw Ge0rG, copy & paste your arguments into a XEP template?
  826. goffi Ge0rG: where ?
  827. Ge0rG Hm.
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  830. Ge0rG I'm using `yaxim.32bithexrnd` since the first user reported an issue with a second device running yaxim, which was ages ago.
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  832. daniel 32 bits?
  833. daniel That seems like a lot
  834. labdsf I would like it to behave like DHCP, server selects a resource for you (or you select random with prefix for the first time), then you request the same resource on reconnection
  835. Ge0rG goffi: on standards@, mostly. The last time in the context of bind2, where the `uuid4/uuid4` resource string scheme was proposed.
  836. jonasw labdsf, you can have that by not specifying a resource on the first connect
  837. jonasw the server has to assign one to you then
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  839. labdsf jonasw, the problem with Gajim is that it does not remember it
  840. jonasw sure, gajim needs fixing
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  843. labdsf ok, I will file an issue
  844. Ge0rG daniel: maybe. I didn't do the math regarding the birthday collision phenomenon
  845. jonasw 32 bit are just 8 characters of hex. that seems good to me
  846. goffi Ge0rG: would be nice to put in a protoXEP, it's hard to follow every discussions in MUC + mailing list + github issues now, specially for devs like me which are working on their free time.
  847. labdsf 32 bit is what OMEMO uses
  848. jonasw I‘d probably do base64 instead.
  849. labdsf for device id
  850. jonasw goffi, which github issues?
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  852. daniel jonasw, i use 3 bytes in base64. thats short enough that an advanced user (doing debugging or what ever) can still remember it
  853. goffi jonasw: I think discussions happens there sometimes, if not that's good news
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  855. jonasw goffi, not on the xeps repository (not on my watch at least)
  856. jonasw if you spot technical discussion there, feel free to alert me or another editor
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  858. jonasw because I find that awful, too, and we agreed to remind people to move the discussions to standards@
  859. goffi good then
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  862. jonasw daniel, right
  863. Ge0rG daniel: I remember being confused by the special characters in a conversations resource. Also, I wonder if there are case insensitive servers out there
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  865. jonasw Ge0rG, they’d be in violation of RFC 6122 then
  866. jonasw burn them
  867. daniel Ge0rG: well if there are they should reread the rfc
  868. jonasw Ge0rG, which special characters though? base64 is just a-zA-Z0-9
  869. daniel jonasw: plus two more
  870. jonasw oh right
  871. jonasw (three if you count the padding)
  872. daniel With three bytes you don't have padding
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  874. jonasw true
  875. Ge0rG I'd actually rather use a password generator for the resource
  876. jonasw something like "commissions beer respite"?
  877. Ge0rG Did I say "passphrase"?
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  902. labdsf jonasw, you mentioned MattJ is working on something (premanent resources? message queues?), where can I read about it?
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  904. Zash Can you read minds?
  905. labdsf I guess it is offline message queues in prosody
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  912. Ge0rG Zash [18:31]: > Can you read minds? Is there an XEP for that?
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  916. pep. labdsf, there was some mention of that on this channel iirc, and maybe also on prosody@
  917. MattJ Ge0rG, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0183.html
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  919. MattJ labdsf, there's nothing to read, just reworking the message delivery logic in Prosody. No XEP because no protocol changes (we have all the protocols we already need)
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  921. labdsf MattJ: What is the change in delivery logic? Will no-permanent-store offline messages be stored for some time for recently seen resources?
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  924. MattJ Yes
  925. MattJ Probably no-permanent-store will be ignored for the most part, in preference to delivering the message to all known devices
  926. labdsf I would like to disable MAM completely. As a workaround I have it store messages for a week and in-memory only.
  927. Ge0rG Tedd has a very interesting reading of the LMC rules
  928. MattJ I really dislike the idea of MAM (I don't run it on my own server)
  929. MattJ I wrote the XEP, and intended it to cover multiple use cases, but I should clarify that it's the "store everything forever" thing that people seem to have interpreted it as that I don't like
  930. labdsf MattJ: as I understand it, no-store is "deliver to online clients only", no-permanent-store is "no MAM, store for some time in memory for clients that are likely to reconnect in a few days", store is "store in MAM permanetly until it is removed by some internal logic".
  931. MattJ The stuff I'm working on auto-deletes messages once they have been received by all devices
  932. MattJ Regardless of what hints are in the message
  933. labdsf So you sort of ignore no-store and make it work like no-permanent-store
  934. labdsf And store does not work because MAM is disabled
  935. Ge0rG Funny how everybody involved in xmpp software runs their own custom configuration that's incompatible to the preached best practices and to everybody else's
  936. MattJ Ge0rG, you think I'm preaching that people should have MAM enabled and store everything forever? :)
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  940. Ge0rG MattJ: you wrote the XEP. And MAM support is demanded by at least one modern client.
  941. MattJ labdsf, I'm breaking stanzas into three categories: [deliver to all], [deliver to all online], [deliver to single resource]
  942. Ge0rG I'm running my secondary clients with negative priority to avoid them consuming messages when the primary client is offline.
  943. Ge0rG MattJ: the preaching statement was not related to you personally, just to what the xsf says
  944. MattJ Ge0rG, the XSF preaches? :)
  945. labdsf I would like to have two options: with MAM (Telegram-like, local archive acts like cache and can be pruned anytime) / without MAM (client has to store all messages locally)
  946. Zash birdsite.tld/shitxsfsays
  947. labdsf the fact that MAM became an offline message delivery mechanism is a bug
  948. labdsf especially with OMEMO, when messages are sent with <store/> but cannot be decrypted more than once
  949. labdsf and server stores permanently encrypted messages that nobody can decrypt
  950. Ge0rG labdsf: congratulations, you just discovered the mess that multi device xmpp is.
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  952. MattJ labdsf, pretty much agree
  953. MattJ which is why I'm taking a step back and rewriting our code like it's 2018
  954. Ge0rG If I weren't on mobile I'd give you the link to the presentation listing this and many other issues
  955. Ge0rG Per device offline message queues would actually be a reason for me to upgrade prosody to trunk
  956. labdsf Ge0rG, but it seems pretty easy to fix (from the protocol point of view, not sure about implementation), just add semi-permanent resources and store messages for some time
  957. Ge0rG labdsf: Yeah. Except it was a hard fight to convince a small subset of the xmpp community that permanent resources are a good and not a bad thing
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  960. labdsf resource is a part of URL, it is there for IoT applications from the start, how non-permanent resource is of any use?
  961. labdsf IoT was not that popular buzzword than, but something like that was considered when resources were added I think
  962. labdsf you connect a device, assign it a resource and then it is available by permanent URL
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  964. Ge0rG labdsf: don't ask *me* about that
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  970. labdsf MattJ, if MAM is enabled, messages are stored even if they have been received by all devices I guess?
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  972. labdsf one reason for MAM to exist is when you want to connect a new device later
  973. MattJ There will be a setting (disabled by default) to control storage of messages for longer periods
  974. labdsf Signal solves this problem by synchronizing messages device-to-device, but that would require an entire new specification
  975. MattJ e.g. "store for at least 7 days"
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  977. MattJ It wouldn't require much more of a specification than one that says clients can optionally enable other clients to speak XEP-0313 to them
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  979. MattJ Even if it only supported a limited subset (give me everything after id X)
  980. MattJ Probably a trivial operation for most clients
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  984. Holger Is the plan to (re)construct carbons of outgoing messages while delivering per-device offline messages?
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  990. labdsf https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/issues/9193
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  997. pep. "so offline messages will be stored for longer than needed and not delivered to the client." how would they not be delivered to the client?
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  1000. pep. Are we not delivering everything to every clients nowadays
  1001. Ge0rG MattJ: that would make for a nice and secure UX as well. "Conversations on Android asked to obtain your message history. Yes / No"
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  1005. Holger pep.: No idea but presumably the server would only deliver offline messages when a known resource reconnects.
  1006. Holger Gajim would just fetch them from MAM of course.
  1007. pep. So if I disconnect all my resources and connect with a new one (new client), I'll never receive these only messages? :/
  1008. pep. hmm
  1009. pep. *offline messages
  1010. Holger pep.: Well dunno about the Prosody plans. But otherwise you'd receive the full MAM archive without any paging whenever you log in with a new resource I guess?
  1011. labdsf pep., well, if MAM is not available, and two clients are connected ("Mobile" and "Gajim.foo"), then "Gajim.foo" disconnects, then a message is received, then "Gajim.bar" connects, a message will be stored for "Gajim.foo" and not delivered to "Gajim.bar"
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  1013. labdsf "Mobile" will receive the message because it was online
  1014. pep. And if Mobile wasn't connected
  1015. labdsf then "Gajim.bar" will probably receive the message
  1016. pep. I like the certainty of that sentence
  1017. Holger I wonder whether clients that don't implement MAM get deduplication right ...
  1018. labdsf well, according to https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0160.html it will be Gajim.bar only
  1019. Zash Does anyone get deduplication right?
  1020. labdsf "the server delivers the message to the resource that has sent that presence"
  1021. labdsf Zash, just remove messages with the same ID, I think Xabber does this
  1022. Holger Yes, shouldn't be hard if you rely on stanza IDs. We ran into the dedup mess because we didn't have them until recently.
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  1025. Holger While I'm not convinced you're improving the UX with clients that *don't* support carbons and proper dedup of you start sending them incoming messages received by other clients.
  1026. Holger s/of/if/
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  1048. Ge0rG labdsf: let me tell you about https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0045:_Multi-User_Chat#Matching_Your_Reflected_Message
  1049. Ge0rG Zash: yaxim does deduplication right, but it doesn't support MAM.
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  1052. labdsf pep., I have updaet issue https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/issues/9193 with an expanded example
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  1085. daniel labdsf, resources in Conversations are only semi-stable fwiw
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  1087. daniel i support gajim (and other clients) using semi stable (but randomized) resources but i don’t think relying on them is a good idea
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  1099. Andrew Nenakhov I like resources with human-readable parts.
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  1126. labdsf daniel: how can we not rely on stable resources to identify clients?
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  1128. labdsf We can make clients advertise that they have stable resource to avoid storing messages for randomized ones
  1129. jonasw MattJ, if you don’t want to mean something "store everything forever", calling it "archive" was probably not smart :)
  1130. labdsf But I think it is easier to just fix major clients
  1131. daniel i’m not even sure a client can guarantee that…
  1132. jonasw daniel, to a local server it can
  1133. Zash It can't. Server has final say in what resource is used.
  1134. daniel what zash said
  1135. daniel even though a client could end the stream if the server doesn’t provide the resource it wants
  1136. daniel but that’s borderline insane
  1137. jonasw what I meant was: if a users server wants to make use of that property for that users clients, having the client advertise it makes sense. because if the server allows, the client can guarantee it.
  1138. jonasw (to the extent that it makes sense, after a disk wipe it obviously can’t)
  1139. labdsf There is no problem, if the server implements offline message queues, it has to provide stable resources
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  1142. labdsf No need to think about the case when server does not
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  1144. daniel labdsf, since i missed half the discussion; this is all in an attempt to make self destructible messages work?
  1145. labdsf In attempt to make offline messages work without MAM, unrelated work in prosody
  1146. jonasw Ge0rG, what did you mean by "password generator" for the random resource thing?
  1147. labdsf But that would help make plaintext ephemeral messages usable, which are not in their current state
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  1153. labdsf OMEMO ephemeral messages are already ok I think, I just need to move the payload out of the <ephemeral> tag
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  1156. Ge0rG jonasw: something like https://github.com/pfleidi/yaxim/blob/master/src/org/yaxim/androidclient/util/XMPPHelper.java#L126 but with a-zA-Z0-9 only
  1157. labdsf So the core functionality is advertising ephemeral message support in device bundle and sending OMEMO ephemeral messages
  1158. Ge0rG it doesn't *need* to be exactly N bits of entropy
  1159. jonasw Ge0rG, soo... how’s that different from get_random_bytes(3) | base46?
  1160. jonasw Ge0rG, soo... how’s that different from get_random_bytes(3) | base64?
  1161. jonasw except for / and -
  1162. Ge0rG jonasw: exactly. / and -
  1163. jonasw what’s the isuse with that?
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  1165. Ge0rG jonasw: because you don't want to have a / in your resource when bind2 strikes
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  1167. jonasw why not?
  1168. labdsf That was my proposal before discussion, then it was extented to plaintext and OpenPGP which we have to postpone until no-permanent-store can be supported
  1169. jonasw (and then I can still move to urlsafe…)
  1170. daniel Conversations uses url safe (- and _) by the way
  1171. jonasw Ge0rG, my understanding was that it was supposed to be <server part>/<client part> anyways
  1172. jonasw but whatever, I’ll use urlsafe then
  1173. daniel not because i’m afraid of bind2 but because it looks nice
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  1176. daniel labdsf, in my experience most clients that implement self destructible messages use omemo anyway
  1177. daniel (and are single device only most of the time)
  1178. Ge0rG daniel: was C using url-safe b64 from start on?
  1179. daniel yes
  1180. Ge0rG daniel: because I could *bet* I've seen a C with a / in the resource.
  1181. daniel (start=when it starting doing the random url part thing)
  1182. Ge0rG jonasw: how much would you bet on nobody ever implemeting resource.split("/")[0] and [1]?
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  1185. jonasw Ge0rG, https://github.com/jabbercat/jclib/compare/07c2589edf5b7d0a23124ace78477a38e0145f44...46433e394ba6bbc8d5209a93cdd62b34b4af1043
  1186. jonasw Ge0rG, as someone who recently fixed their JID implementation to interpret domain/resource correctly, I say they shall burn in hell
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  1188. Ge0rG jonasw: 👍
  1189. jonasw Ge0rG, as someone who recently fixed their JID implementation to interpret domain/resource/with/slash correctly, I say they shall burn in hell
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  1191. labdsf daniel: I am in the process of fixing the ProtoXEP to make it clear that everything outside OMEMO should be hidden from the user behind the "i know what I am doing" checkbox, and start writing the code by implementing ephemeral messages for OMEMO in Gajim
  1192. rishiraj22 has joined
  1193. daniel right. i’m just trying to provide you with an fyi on what most implementors are probably looking for
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  1195. Ge0rG jonasw: so you say you are one of these folks who didn't get it right on the first attempt?
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  1198. jonasw Ge0rG, yupp. and I shall burn in hell
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  1200. daniel Ge0rG, is this an argument to actually use / in Conversations and thus making this type of resource more common and thus helping to find those bugs much quicker?
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  1202. daniel if those bugs exists it's better to find them
  1203. jonasw daniel, I agree
  1204. daniel speaking of fun with jids. is there some sort of migration path to PRECIS? :-)
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  1207. jonasw except crying and trying to figure out why anybody would think that PRECIS was a good idea?
  1208. SamWhited PRECIS was a great idea
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  1212. jonasw SamWhited, good, can you explain to me how it makes sense to /not/ specify a specific unicode version for a standard which is used for data validation?
  1213. daniel precis is arguably easier to understand and implement than stringprep
  1214. jonasw I’ve been thinking about this for a while now and wasn’t able to figure that out yet
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  1216. SamWhited Do you want to be stuck on Unicode 3.0 forever? Also yah, I've tried implementing both. PRECIS was *way* easier.
  1217. jonasw this is bound to give inconsistent results, so we can’t ever do strict validation.
  1218. daniel jonasw, it relies on char classes
  1219. daniel and those are standardized by unicode
  1220. jonasw can’t things move between character clasess in different major releases of unicode?
  1221. SamWhited You can do strict validation; it's fine.
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  1224. SamWhited Yah, they can, so before you upgrade versions of Unicode double check and think about the consequences. Chances are it won't matter, or you'll have to provide an upgrade path just like when upgrading any other dependency ever.
  1225. jonasw SamWhited, uhm... so... instead of having a well-defined unicode version in the standard, now every developer of every XMPP related library needs to consider this?
  1226. jonasw how is this better?
  1227. SamWhited Because the standard can't be upgraded easily, our random libraries can.
  1228. jonasw so you’re saying we can manage to pull off a coordinated effort to lift the network on a new Unicode version whenever a new release comes out?
  1229. SamWhited You don't have to, just be backwards compatible.
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  1232. SamWhited I think my version supports 9 and 10 correctly and I think marcel added a way to make sure they interop, but I'd have to go look
  1233. daniel how does interop look like though? it has to be valid in both?
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  1236. daniel or pass through both?
  1237. SamWhited daniel: yah, if it's invalid in one fallback to the other, if it's invalid in both it's invalid.
  1238. jonasw so with enough time and enough interop, you’ll end up with a thing which just accepts everything.
  1239. jonasw and O(n) validation
  1240. SamWhited I suppose it depends on the situation though.
  1241. SamWhited No you really won't, you still have to follow the spec. Unicode charcters aren't changing left and right every day.
  1242. Ge0rG daniel: how is it a good idea to expose a small subset of your users to a weird behavior in the hope to sort it out?
  1243. jonasw O(nm) even, with n being the number of unicode standards you (the network) support and m the length of the string
  1244. SamWhited This is a rare thing that you *might* have to do if something very bad happens.
  1245. SamWhited jonasw: that's fine; it's still pretty fast and that only happens in the failure case and probably very rarely at that. You can probably also just check for any characters you think might cause problems if the performance is a problem.
  1246. jonasw I’m less worried about the practical performance and more about the concept itself.
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  1250. jonasw and possible attack vectors which come from ambiguous validation
  1251. SamWhited It's not ambiguous, it's very well defined with well defined failure scenarios.
  1252. jonasw ---which I haven’t thought through yet, because I’m avoiding the isuse at the moment.
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  1254. jonasw SamWhited, where are the failure scenarios defined?
  1255. jonasw i.e. which unicode versions do I have to try for which parts of a JID under which conditions?
  1256. daniel well if you are worried about that then there is probably no way to ever migrate to precis in the first place which means you don't have to worry about that
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  1259. SamWhited In the XEPs, they talk about this sort of thing extensively.
  1260. jonasw there are PRECIS *XEPs*?
  1261. SamWhited err, RFCs, that is
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  1264. daniel because the differences between stringprep and precis are more severe than precis with unicode x and precis with unicode y
  1265. jonasw hm, all I found so far was "PRECIS users need to consider the effects of unicode version changes, #notmydepartment" essentially
  1266. jonasw but maybe I have looked at the wrong place
  1267. jonasw daniel, yeah, that too
  1268. Ge0rG And then you are going to end up with users flooded by popup error messages from a client running on an old version of the spec because somebody used a robot face as a MUC nickname
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  1270. daniel true story
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  1272. Ge0rG Not all of my corner cases were pulled from thin air
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