XSF Discussion - 2018-06-12


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  230. Ge0rG

    https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2018/01/detecting_drone.html another nail in the coffin of stream compression. I totally missed that back in January

  231. jonasw

    awesome

  232. jonasw

    can we use that to decrypt and de-DRM HDMI streams?

  233. Andrew Nenakhov

    "In other words, they can see what the drone sees," - seems like total bullshit

  234. Andrew Nenakhov

    They can detect patterns within compressed stream (idle/rapidly changing), not the stream itself.

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  319. labdsf

    TLDR: If you suspect that drone is filming you, move rapidly and see if it transmits more

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  357. labdsf

    daniel, why do you say Conversations resources are not permanent?

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  360. labdsf

    when are they changed?

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  370. labdsf

    I am thinking about how to fix it in Gajim and it seems just writing permanent resource in config is not a good idea, because configs may be synchronized

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  376. daniel

    labdsf: when a server provides me with a different one or if I'm logged out because of duplicate resource or not permitted to bind

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  381. labdsf

    that seems like a solution, thanks

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  384. labdsf

    just regenerate resource if it is duplicate

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  386. jonasw

    yupp

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  392. Ge0rG

    Except that a *sane* server will assume that the second bind is the same client, coming from a network change, and kill the old session.

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  394. daniel

    I've seen plenty of server that will prevent your bind

  395. daniel

    Jabberd maybe?

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  397. Ge0rG

    daniel: yes, there are some servers that do that. No, it doesn't make it a good idea.

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  400. daniel

    i think there is also an ejabberd config that will just give you a new random resource

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  404. daniel

    at least i have seen that behaviour in the wild

  405. Ge0rG

    there is also a prosody module for that.

  406. Ge0rG

    In the Age Of MAM, this is not as bad as it used to be.

  407. MattJ

    FWIW although I now favour clients requesting per-client static resources, I didn't mention what the server actually assigns them :)

  408. daniel

    is "there is a prosody module for that" the new "the simpsons did it"?

  409. Zash

    Old tho

  410. Ge0rG

    MattJ: I'm interested in how you imagine the whole process to play out, then.

  411. MattJ

    Is there any more to it than that?

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  416. MattJ

    Client should request a resource of <some installation-unique string>, it doesn't need to be what the server actually uses as the public resource for that session

  417. Ge0rG

    MattJ: so you do assign another resource to the client? Do you expect the client to request the newly-assigned resource on next connection then? And re-assign again?

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  419. MattJ

    No, why would it do that?

  420. MattJ

    I expect the client to always request the same resource

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  424. jonasw

    MattJ, if the server gives me a different resource in the bind response, I think I’ll use that resource from then onwards ...

  425. MattJ

    Why?

  426. Ge0rG

    See, you don't even have a coherent image of your idea.

  427. MattJ

    Consider that the server's logic (as it typically is today) when that happens is "override the client's resource with a random one"

  428. Ge0rG

    Why should that be a good idea, again?

  429. MattJ

    Requesting the one the server assigns you will just get you a new different random one?

  430. MattJ

    s/?$//

  431. MattJ

    so why would you bother? Just request the one you want

  432. jonasw

    MattJ, yeah, in that case, it doesn’t matter whether I try my configured resource all over again

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  434. jonasw

    but if a server allows me to stay consistent, I can have that

  435. jonasw

    hm

  436. jonasw

    I kinda see your point

  437. Ge0rG

    I don't.

  438. MattJ

    If the server overrides your resource once, it will again :)

  439. jonasw

    why go through the hassle of updating the stored resource when it won’t work anyways

  440. Ge0rG

    It *could* work if the server had a list of well-known resources for that account, and checked that for matches.

  441. Ge0rG

    It needs that list anyway to kill your stale session on a reconnect.

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  444. Ge0rG

    You know, like above: Replaced by new connection (conflict)

  445. MattJ

    It makes no sense to me that a client would store the resource beyond the lifetime of a single session

  446. jonasw

    MattJ, yeah, nevermind on that one

  447. MattJ

    Ge0rG, that old thing :)

  448. jonasw

    re-rolling a new resource on <conflict/> makes sense though

  449. Ge0rG

    except that <conflict/> doesn't make sense.

  450. jonasw

    why not?

  451. jonasw

    Ge0rG, if somebody copied their JabberCat config to a new machine and they connect it while the other machine is connected too, I get a <conflict/>

  452. jonasw

    I need to handel that and re-roll the resource

  453. Ge0rG

    jonasw: wait, your *old* session gets a conflict?

  454. jonasw

    yes

  455. Ge0rG

    Aaah!

  456. jonasw

    (it doesn’t matter though)

  457. Ge0rG got enlightened now.

  458. jonasw

    (even if the new session gets a conflict)

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  460. Ge0rG

    jonasw: it does make a difference.

  461. jonasw

    (A server could for example decide to let the new session conflict if it received a ping-pong just now)

  462. Ge0rG

    jonasw: if your *new* session gets a conflict, it might be because the server still hangs on your old session.

  463. Ge0rG

    but it's dead for all practical matters.

  464. jonasw

    sure, but what am I supposed to do?

  465. jonasw

    not connect until that session dies?

  466. Ge0rG

    call the server hotline

  467. jonasw

    or roll a new resource and be able to connect?

  468. Ge0rG

    Hmm.... hide the error or show the error.

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  470. jonasw

    tricky question indeed

  471. Ge0rG

    Somebody should re-do https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_IM_Client_Design_Guidelines#Do_not_to_encode_any_semantics_into_the_resource.2C_let_the_server_generate_a_resource_for_you

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  484. goffi

    Ge0rG: I think I've actually followed this page, and today people have a different song

  485. Ge0rG

    goffi: I have hated that section, with a passion, for a long time.

  486. Ge0rG

    But I'm not here for wiki editing wars, so I always hoped the original author would become convinced and change it.

  487. jonasw

    Ge0rG, modify it!

  488. goffi

    that's why a XEP (or better a new version of the RFC) should be clear on the subject.

  489. jonasw

    who is the origina lauthor

  490. Ge0rG

    I thought it was MattJ, but it looks like not.

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  492. goffi

    with a XEP there is a debate on standard, and council will arbitrate if there is any conflict.

  493. Ge0rG

    goffi: there was a debate on standards, and we went home with multiple strong opinions.

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  495. jonasw

    *.xmpp *.split

  496. goffi

    so can somebody write some official proposal? As a client dev I don't really care which way is chosen to generate resource, but I would like to have a clear way and if possible some rationale to explain why.

  497. Ge0rG

    I think jonasw volunteers for that 😁

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  499. Ge0rG

    goffi: the XSF traditionally isn't very strong at putting the rationale for protocols into its protocol specifications, and this one is 95% rationale.

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  502. jonasw

    Ge0rG, EBUSY

  503. goffi

    well the important is not the tradition here, the important is to simplify life for everybody. And I don't think it worth spending time and energy to know how to generate resource

  504. Ge0rG

    goffi: the point is: this is not protocol, this is best-practices.

  505. goffi

    there are several XEPS for best practice already

  506. Ge0rG

    so it might be a good informational XEP indeed.

  507. goffi

    yep

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  510. Ge0rG

    but then, as there is no consensus, and there are conflicting opinions, it's hard.

  511. goffi

    **on beatles music** All we need is specs, tadalala

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  513. goffi

    Ge0rG: the council is here to arbitrate once all opinions have been exposed.

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  516. Ge0rG

    goffi: what if the conflict is among council members?

  517. goffi

    well let's solve problem when they come?

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  520. Ge0rG

    https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0045:_Multi-User_Chat#Matching_Your_Reflected_Message would also make a great informational XEP

  521. Ge0rG

    And https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0045:_Multi-User_Chat#Am_I_still_there.3F as well

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  525. Ge0rG

    Also somebody should walk the wiki for all ML references made before 2016 and update the links

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  530. flow

    It may already help if a wiki page would list all competing proposals regarding resource handling. we may find out that there is in fact a way to reach consensus. (I thought we have consensus FWIW)

  531. Ge0rG

    there is bind2.

  532. Ge0rG

    And there is Zuul.

  533. flow

    Zuul?

  534. Ge0rG

    There is no Dana, only Zuul!

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  538. Wiktor

    hehe, and the hidden Mozilla egg: http://www.mozilla.org/keymaster/gatekeeper/there.is.only.xul

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  640. fippo

    https://twitter.com/w3cdevs/status/1006544269149077504 -- might be relevant for some european folks here

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  642. Ge0rG

    Yes, let's get some money to create more APIs to track web victims.

  643. fippo

    heh :-)

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  685. labdsf

    Ge0rG, I have found your slides btw: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Georg%27s_Talk_on_Message_routing

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  689. Ge0rG

    labdsf: yay! Feel free to give feedback

  690. Ge0rG

    Or to feel embarrassed about it

  691. labdsf

    via https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/issues/8971

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  696. Ge0rG

    Am I supposed to defend my position in there?

  697. Ge0rG

    6121 also doesn't know about carbons, MAM, and four hundred other protocol extensions

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  778. labdsf

    Persistent resources in Gajim seem to be already fixed, just need to wait for it to hit the repos, closed the bug: https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/issues/9193

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  781. labdsf

    cloned the master, started testing and found that it wrote the random part into config

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  788. flow

    yeah gajim is improving a lot recently

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  919. Seve/SouL

    Link Mauve: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q3_2018

  920. Link Mauve

    Ok, let’s do that now.

  921. Link Mauve

    https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q3_2018#Applicants

  922. Seve/SouL

    Link Mauve: great :)

  923. pep.

    wooh

  924. pep.

    Q3 already..

  925. pep.

    Time flies

  926. valo has left

  927. Seve/SouL

    Yes :(

  928. Seve/SouL

    I will have to find my application

  929. Seve/SouL

    Or do a new one, wonder what...

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  934. Seve/SouL

    But yeah, a year already!

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  939. edhelas

    damn me too

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