XSF Discussion - 2018-06-12

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  230. Ge0rG https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2018/01/detecting_drone.html another nail in the coffin of stream compression. I totally missed that back in January
  231. jonasw awesome
  232. jonasw can we use that to decrypt and de-DRM HDMI streams?
  233. Andrew Nenakhov "In other words, they can see what the drone sees," - seems like total bullshit
  234. Andrew Nenakhov They can detect patterns within compressed stream (idle/rapidly changing), not the stream itself.
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  319. labdsf TLDR: If you suspect that drone is filming you, move rapidly and see if it transmits more
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  357. labdsf daniel, why do you say Conversations resources are not permanent?
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  360. labdsf when are they changed?
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  370. labdsf I am thinking about how to fix it in Gajim and it seems just writing permanent resource in config is not a good idea, because configs may be synchronized
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  376. daniel labdsf: when a server provides me with a different one or if I'm logged out because of duplicate resource or not permitted to bind
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  381. labdsf that seems like a solution, thanks
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  384. labdsf just regenerate resource if it is duplicate
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  386. jonasw yupp
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  392. Ge0rG Except that a *sane* server will assume that the second bind is the same client, coming from a network change, and kill the old session.
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  394. daniel I've seen plenty of server that will prevent your bind
  395. daniel Jabberd maybe?
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  397. Ge0rG daniel: yes, there are some servers that do that. No, it doesn't make it a good idea.
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  400. daniel i think there is also an ejabberd config that will just give you a new random resource
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  404. daniel at least i have seen that behaviour in the wild
  405. Ge0rG there is also a prosody module for that.
  406. Ge0rG In the Age Of MAM, this is not as bad as it used to be.
  407. MattJ FWIW although I now favour clients requesting per-client static resources, I didn't mention what the server actually assigns them :)
  408. daniel is "there is a prosody module for that" the new "the simpsons did it"?
  409. Zash Old tho
  410. Ge0rG MattJ: I'm interested in how you imagine the whole process to play out, then.
  411. MattJ Is there any more to it than that?
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  416. MattJ Client should request a resource of <some installation-unique string>, it doesn't need to be what the server actually uses as the public resource for that session
  417. Ge0rG MattJ: so you do assign another resource to the client? Do you expect the client to request the newly-assigned resource on next connection then? And re-assign again?
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  419. MattJ No, why would it do that?
  420. MattJ I expect the client to always request the same resource
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  424. jonasw MattJ, if the server gives me a different resource in the bind response, I think I’ll use that resource from then onwards ...
  425. MattJ Why?
  426. Ge0rG See, you don't even have a coherent image of your idea.
  427. MattJ Consider that the server's logic (as it typically is today) when that happens is "override the client's resource with a random one"
  428. Ge0rG Why should that be a good idea, again?
  429. MattJ Requesting the one the server assigns you will just get you a new different random one?
  430. MattJ s/?$//
  431. MattJ so why would you bother? Just request the one you want
  432. jonasw MattJ, yeah, in that case, it doesn’t matter whether I try my configured resource all over again
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  434. jonasw but if a server allows me to stay consistent, I can have that
  435. jonasw hm
  436. jonasw I kinda see your point
  437. Ge0rG I don't.
  438. MattJ If the server overrides your resource once, it will again :)
  439. jonasw why go through the hassle of updating the stored resource when it won’t work anyways
  440. Ge0rG It *could* work if the server had a list of well-known resources for that account, and checked that for matches.
  441. Ge0rG It needs that list anyway to kill your stale session on a reconnect.
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  444. Ge0rG You know, like above: Replaced by new connection (conflict)
  445. MattJ It makes no sense to me that a client would store the resource beyond the lifetime of a single session
  446. jonasw MattJ, yeah, nevermind on that one
  447. MattJ Ge0rG, that old thing :)
  448. jonasw re-rolling a new resource on <conflict/> makes sense though
  449. Ge0rG except that <conflict/> doesn't make sense.
  450. jonasw why not?
  451. jonasw Ge0rG, if somebody copied their JabberCat config to a new machine and they connect it while the other machine is connected too, I get a <conflict/>
  452. jonasw I need to handel that and re-roll the resource
  453. Ge0rG jonasw: wait, your *old* session gets a conflict?
  454. jonasw yes
  455. Ge0rG Aaah!
  456. jonasw (it doesn’t matter though)
  457. Ge0rG got enlightened now.
  458. jonasw (even if the new session gets a conflict)
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  460. Ge0rG jonasw: it does make a difference.
  461. jonasw (A server could for example decide to let the new session conflict if it received a ping-pong just now)
  462. Ge0rG jonasw: if your *new* session gets a conflict, it might be because the server still hangs on your old session.
  463. Ge0rG but it's dead for all practical matters.
  464. jonasw sure, but what am I supposed to do?
  465. jonasw not connect until that session dies?
  466. Ge0rG call the server hotline
  467. jonasw or roll a new resource and be able to connect?
  468. Ge0rG Hmm.... hide the error or show the error.
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  470. jonasw tricky question indeed
  471. Ge0rG Somebody should re-do https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XMPP_IM_Client_Design_Guidelines#Do_not_to_encode_any_semantics_into_the_resource.2C_let_the_server_generate_a_resource_for_you
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  484. goffi Ge0rG: I think I've actually followed this page, and today people have a different song
  485. Ge0rG goffi: I have hated that section, with a passion, for a long time.
  486. Ge0rG But I'm not here for wiki editing wars, so I always hoped the original author would become convinced and change it.
  487. jonasw Ge0rG, modify it!
  488. goffi that's why a XEP (or better a new version of the RFC) should be clear on the subject.
  489. jonasw who is the origina lauthor
  490. Ge0rG I thought it was MattJ, but it looks like not.
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  492. goffi with a XEP there is a debate on standard, and council will arbitrate if there is any conflict.
  493. Ge0rG goffi: there was a debate on standards, and we went home with multiple strong opinions.
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  495. jonasw *.xmpp *.split
  496. goffi so can somebody write some official proposal? As a client dev I don't really care which way is chosen to generate resource, but I would like to have a clear way and if possible some rationale to explain why.
  497. Ge0rG I think jonasw volunteers for that 😁
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  499. Ge0rG goffi: the XSF traditionally isn't very strong at putting the rationale for protocols into its protocol specifications, and this one is 95% rationale.
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  502. jonasw Ge0rG, EBUSY
  503. goffi well the important is not the tradition here, the important is to simplify life for everybody. And I don't think it worth spending time and energy to know how to generate resource
  504. Ge0rG goffi: the point is: this is not protocol, this is best-practices.
  505. goffi there are several XEPS for best practice already
  506. Ge0rG so it might be a good informational XEP indeed.
  507. goffi yep
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  510. Ge0rG but then, as there is no consensus, and there are conflicting opinions, it's hard.
  511. goffi **on beatles music** All we need is specs, tadalala
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  513. goffi Ge0rG: the council is here to arbitrate once all opinions have been exposed.
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  516. Ge0rG goffi: what if the conflict is among council members?
  517. goffi well let's solve problem when they come?
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  520. Ge0rG https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0045:_Multi-User_Chat#Matching_Your_Reflected_Message would also make a great informational XEP
  521. Ge0rG And https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/XEP-Remarks/XEP-0045:_Multi-User_Chat#Am_I_still_there.3F as well
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  525. Ge0rG Also somebody should walk the wiki for all ML references made before 2016 and update the links
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  530. flow It may already help if a wiki page would list all competing proposals regarding resource handling. we may find out that there is in fact a way to reach consensus. (I thought we have consensus FWIW)
  531. Ge0rG there is bind2.
  532. Ge0rG And there is Zuul.
  533. flow Zuul?
  534. Ge0rG There is no Dana, only Zuul!
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  538. Wiktor hehe, and the hidden Mozilla egg: http://www.mozilla.org/keymaster/gatekeeper/there.is.only.xul
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  640. fippo https://twitter.com/w3cdevs/status/1006544269149077504 -- might be relevant for some european folks here
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  642. Ge0rG Yes, let's get some money to create more APIs to track web victims.
  643. fippo heh :-)
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  685. labdsf Ge0rG, I have found your slides btw: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Georg%27s_Talk_on_Message_routing
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  689. Ge0rG labdsf: yay! Feel free to give feedback
  690. Ge0rG Or to feel embarrassed about it
  691. labdsf via https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/issues/8971
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  696. Ge0rG Am I supposed to defend my position in there?
  697. Ge0rG 6121 also doesn't know about carbons, MAM, and four hundred other protocol extensions
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  778. labdsf Persistent resources in Gajim seem to be already fixed, just need to wait for it to hit the repos, closed the bug: https://dev.gajim.org/gajim/gajim/issues/9193
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  781. labdsf cloned the master, started testing and found that it wrote the random part into config
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  788. flow yeah gajim is improving a lot recently
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  919. Seve/SouL Link Mauve: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q3_2018
  920. Link Mauve Ok, let’s do that now.
  921. Link Mauve https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q3_2018#Applicants
  922. Seve/SouL Link Mauve: great :)
  923. pep. wooh
  924. pep. Q3 already..
  925. pep. Time flies
  926. valo has left
  927. Seve/SouL Yes :(
  928. Seve/SouL I will have to find my application
  929. Seve/SouL Or do a new one, wonder what...
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  934. Seve/SouL But yeah, a year already!
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  939. edhelas damn me too
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