XSF Discussion - 2018-06-20

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  135. flow labdsf, caps still work with routing-ng (or why shouldn't they) and you are still able to send messages to the full jid
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  139. jonasw labdsf, please close PRs which shouldn’t be merged
  140. jonasw you can make a new one later
  141. jonasw open PRs clutter the view
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  146. labdsf ok, closed
  147. labdsf I can even reopen it
  148. jonasw yupp
  149. jonasw thank you d)
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  337. labdsf flow: i mean, when I send messages to bare JID, I cannot know which capabilities the receiving client has
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  339. jonasw labdsf, there are use-cases where you want to send to a single device, for example for IQ-based protocols and stuff like Jingle
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  341. labdsf So ok, I can simply send message to all full JIDs that I think have required capabilities
  342. labdsf And attach no-copy hint
  343. jonasw except that they’re not archived
  344. labdsf Not archived by MAM is ok
  345. jonasw awful
  346. labdsf For ephemeral messages that is exactly what I want
  347. jonasw I am strictly against introducing another reason why messages don’t appear on all devices.
  348. jonasw OMEMO itself is bad enough already.
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  350. labdsf If I send to all full JIDs, then it will appear on all online devices
  351. labdsf I think we need a better way to deliver messages to offline devices
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  353. Kev We have it, it's MAM.
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  356. labdsf It does not deliver messages to full JID
  357. jonasw labdsf, except that the device may be going offlnie exactly in that moment you send the message
  358. jonasw and come back online a secodn later
  359. jonasw without the user noticing
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  361. jonasw (badly timed SM resumption can cause this behaviour)
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  363. labdsf How about updating XEP 0160 to say that messages send with no-copy should be postponed and delivered to exactly that full jid, not some random with positive priority?
  364. labdsf sent*
  365. labdsf Or return service-unavailable at least
  366. jonasw labdsf, also, what if: 1. you check device support 2. you send a message to all full JIDs you want to 3. your network is slow and the message is delayed 4. one of your target devices goes offline 5. another device from that user comes online which does *not* have the feature you were looking for, but uses the same resource 6. your message was delivered to the wrong device
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  368. labdsf jonasw: do not use the same resource
  369. jonasw you can’t force your peer to not do that
  370. jonasw using the resource for that kind of stuff is inherently racy because it’s an inherently temporary thing
  371. labdsf I think using unique resources is the best practice
  372. Kev And remember that clients don't get to choose their resources, the server does.
  373. labdsf Otherwise we cannot do anything but say that capabilities are totally unreliable
  374. jonasw labdsf, that’s what we’ve been doing for a while now :)
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  376. jonasw for IQ based stuff it’s okay, and for things like jingle where there’s constant feedback, but using it for messaging is not a good idea
  377. Kev It's generally ok, but not foolproof.
  378. labdsf Except that capabilities XEP mentions XHTML-IM in the introduction, which is messaging use case
  379. jonasw labdsf, it’s also old
  380. labdsf I would rather slowly improve offline message delivery then declare that nothing is reliable in XMPP and we should just send everything to bare JID with store hint and body and save it in MAM forever
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  383. jonasw labdsf, why not?
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  385. labdsf Because it is impossible to implement any extension that relies on client support on top of that
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  391. labdsf Lets say, replies, editing messages other than the last etc.
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  393. labdsf OMEMO has to put encryption keys for *all* devices except the one it is intended for
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  403. labdsf Adding body to OMEMO messages is a kludge also
  404. labdsf There are two problems with full JIDs: 1. No way to get list of offline resources 2. No reliable delivery to offline resources
  405. labdsf Both are fixable on server side
  406. Kev (1) That's what a presence subscription gives you (2) That's because there's no such thing as an offline resource.
  407. jonasw Kev, how does presence subscription give you a list of *offline* resources?
  408. Kev Sorry, I read *online* resources. It also gives you a full list of offline resources - it's an empty list because they don't exist :)
  409. jonasw heh
  410. Kev We do need to track offline clients for assorted reasons, but those are offline clients, not offline resources.
  411. labdsf Ok, "offline resource" means a resource that offline client will use when it reconnect
  412. MattJ There is no way to know what resource a client will use when it reconnects
  413. MattJ A resource is a session identifier for an online session only
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  415. MattJ As much as it would be nice to imagine it is a device identifier, it is not - there is no standard for that, and it's not what most clients do
  416. jonasw (yet)
  417. MattJ I would like to change both of those things
  418. labdsf If it randomizes resource every time, it should be fixed IMO, or don't expect to get messages other than those sent to bare JID
  419. jonasw (I don’t expect messages except those sent to the bare JID.)
  420. jonasw (and I don’t think we should send normal IM to anything *but* the bare JID.)
  421. MattJ Agreed
  422. jonasw labdsf, the right way to handle stuff like XHTML-Im etc. is to provide a sensible fallback for clients which do not support it
  423. jonasw the protocol must be designed in such a way that legacy clients do the right thing
  424. labdsf MattJ: agreed to me or jonasw?
  425. MattJ jonasw, but I do agree that clients should not request a random resource for every session
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  427. MattJ I also agree that a client cannot assume it will get *every* message sent to a full JID, but that one is far less clear
  428. labdsf Instead of MAM, server can list resources used by offline client for a week or so, with cached capabilities, and store offline messages sent to them for some time
  429. MattJ and sending to full JID is, like random client-requested resources, something we now want to discourage
  430. MattJ I already have most of an implementation of that, FWIW
  431. MattJ But I still don't think that means what you think it means
  432. MattJ Just because the server can track devices, doesn't necessarily mean they will always have the same resource
  433. MattJ It's potentially something you don't want to leak to third parties
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  444. flow yet we do it as soon as a client replies with a message
  445. Kev We leak resources, we don't necessarily leak devices, because resources and devices aren't a 1:1 mapping over time.
  446. flow true, I still wonder if we shouldn't try to address that by adding a way to send messages from the bare JID. although I fear that this would probably break some (receiving) clients
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  462. labdsf flow: or just introduce a virtual "proxy" resource maintained for you by the servet
  463. labdsf server*
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  465. labdsf MattJ: what are the drawbacks of "leaking" a list of resources. Third party will know how many devices you have, anything else?
  466. MattJ Not that I can immediately think of
  467. MattJ It's not just how many, it's when you use certain devices also
  468. MattJ e.g. someone can track you between work and home if you have a device in each location
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  470. MattJ People used to explicitly set resources like /Home and /Work (well, some clients defaulted to things like that also), but I think we know better than to share things like that by default in 2018
  471. flow labdsf, the resource string is the only thing between a remote entity and your device. if a remote does know it, they can send stanzas which will very likely reach your device (compared to "probably reach your device"). For example, someone knowing the resource of your mobile could write a script which sends "silent" messages every minute or so, in an attempt to drain your battery without you noticing it
  472. Seve/SouL MattJ, did you or someone else publish something regarding the newsletter? I've been not able to catch up lately and I wonder if I missed something
  473. rishiraj22 has left
  474. Seve/SouL sorry, not the newsletter, where do I have my braind today...
  475. Seve/SouL The survey
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  477. MattJ Seve/SouL, not yet
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  480. jonasw flow, itym "reach that specific device" instead of "reach your device"
  481. jonasw because sending to the bare JID would normally cause the device to receive the message for sure at some point
  482. jonasw (in the ideal IM-NG world)
  483. Seve/SouL Ok ok, no rush MattJ, just worried about myself missing stuff :)
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  485. flow jonasw, yes, if we did im-ng, but I deliberatly did not take it into condsideration because there are still many open questions
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  487. jonasw flow, help to solve them :)
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  489. flow jonasw, if it only where so easy ;)
  490. rishiraj22 has joined
  491. flow hmm "if it only would be that easy"
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  900. labdsf flow, what if someone sents silent messages to bare JID?
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  903. labdsf MattJ, where can I find your implementation of offline message delivery?
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  905. MattJ labdsf: on my laptop
  906. labdsf so it is not in https://hg.prosody.im/trunk/ yet?
  907. MattJ No
  908. MattJ It will probably be in prosody-modules first
  909. MattJ Too much of this is new and experimental
  910. labdsf is there any description of it, maybe in ML?
  911. MattJ But I am writing it with the full intention of it replacing the current code we have
  912. MattJ No, and to be honest I have mostly avoided talking about it until recently
  913. MattJ There is not really anything to discuss
  914. MattJ For the initial implementation it will need no protocol changes, and no client changes
  915. labdsf but still, you will keep disconnected resources around, they will be seen in presence and it will be possible to send messages to them, right?
  916. MattJ No, as I said earlier a resource is not a device
  917. MattJ I am not trying to change that
  918. MattJ Prosody will track devices, but that does not necessarily mean sessions will have predictable resource strings
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  920. labdsf if some client uses the same resource string on every connection, and no other client uses the same resource string, the message will be delivered to that device only?
  921. MattJ Send a message to a full JID, use no-copy and Prosody will deliver to that device only
  922. labdsf and if there is no no-copy, it is delivered to some other resource, as per https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0160.html ?
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  924. MattJ As I wrote, I am not trying to change any protocols or behaviour beyond what should reasonably be expected
  925. MattJ If the device is online when you send the message, it is not an offline message
  926. MattJ It will go to that device
  927. MattJ If you send to a resource that is not online, core routing rules apply as always, it will be redirected
  928. MattJ If all devices are offline it's an offline message
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  931. labdsf what happens if there is some device online, message has no no-copy and resource it is sent to 1) was used before 2) was never used before
  932. labdsf and what if there is no-copy and resource was never used before, message is lost?
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  935. MattJ You're over-thinking it... the answer to all the questions is essentially: "exactly the same as happens now"
  936. MattJ Whether a resource was used before is completely irrelevant - resources are temporary, and they belong to a session
  937. MattJ Prosody is not tracking resources, it is not making resources persistent in any way
  938. MattJ Prosody is tracking devices. Devices != resources
  939. labdsf how does it track devices, besides the resource string they request on connection?
  940. MattJ XEP-0198 session token is another way, for example
  941. MattJ A client could try to resume a session, fail (because the session timed out), and then it goes on to bind a completely random resource
  942. MattJ Same device, different resource
  943. alexis has joined
  944. Zash Except not, because the device was killed by the OS and all that was lost
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  946. labdsf the device can try to save SM id in some persistent database
  947. MattJ Zash, tangential to the devices != resources point :)
  948. Zash Possibly
  949. MattJ labdsf, I would eventually like bind2 or some alternative to be implemented, and allow the client to unambigously send a unique id
  950. MattJ But as I mentioned, my current scope involves no protocol changes
  951. MattJ After it's done, bind2/something will become more of a priority
  952. daniel saving the id only wont help you. you'd have to save the entire state
  953. MattJ Yeah
  954. daniel but on mobile the push target is another nice id for the device
  955. daniel clients will enable that in every session
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  957. MattJ Ah, good point, thanks :)
  958. daniel but maybe too late depending on what you are trying to do
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  960. MattJ No, it's easily extended to that
  961. MattJ Though I would like the push target to become part of bind as well
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  964. MattJ Kinda "this is another way to reach me" metadata associated with the session
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  983. labdsf MattJ, how is it different from mod_smacks_offline?
  984. labdsf it just places message for offline delivery, and you try to deliver it to the correct device instead?
  985. MattJ mod_smacks_offline is not ideal, it doesn't work with multiple resources online
  986. labdsf it just delivers to the resource with highest priority?
  987. MattJ If deviceA and deviceB are both online, if deviceB goes offline and does not resume, and there is an unacked message in the queue, there is a question about what to do
  988. MattJ It can't save it to the offline message store, because there is another device still online
  989. MattJ it could send it to that other device
  990. MattJ but that device possibly already received it
  991. MattJ via bare-JID forking or through carbons
  992. MattJ etc.
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  994. MattJ so you end up with duplicated messages or bounced messages. In the case of a single resource going offline, with no other resources, it's simple to just save it to the offline store
  995. MattJ Next resource to log in receives it
  996. labdsf ok, current default is that it is just lost
  997. labdsf and what will you do instead with the new code?
  998. MattJ Current default (mod_smacks) is to send an error reply to the sender
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  1000. MattJ Which works fine, and is the safe option
  1001. MattJ ...except when the sender has gone offline
  1002. Zash or ignore all of that and Just Use MAM™
  1003. MattJ labdsf, new code tracks devices and what stanzas/messages they need to receive
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  1005. MattJ which means the mod_smacks problem is solved, because the code can focus on delivery to a single device, and not worry about whether other resources are online/offline/etc.
  1006. MattJ so at the time of forking/carbons/etc. that is when it gets decided what device receives what stanza
  1007. MattJ Instead of 5-15min later "Oops, that failed to deliver, now where should we send it?"
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  1009. labdsf MattJ, so what will be different, you will try to identify deviceB even after timeout?
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