XSF Discussion - 2018-06-20

  1. Syndace has left

  2. Syndace has joined

  3. waqas has joined

  4. lumi has joined

  5. jjrh has left

  6. la|r|ma has left

  7. j.r has joined

  8. j.r has joined

  9. lorddavidiii has left

  10. kasper.dement has joined

  11. lorddavidiii has left

  12. mrdoctorwho has joined

  13. la|r|ma has joined

  14. lskdjf has joined

  15. kasper.dement has left

  16. tux has left

  17. tux has joined

  18. rainslide has joined

  19. kasper.dement has joined

  20. UsL has joined

  21. kasper.dement has left

  22. kasper.dement has joined

  23. rainslide has left

  24. alacer has joined

  25. kasper.dement has left

  26. kasper.dement has joined

  27. alacer has left

  28. alacer has joined

  29. rainslide has joined

  30. kasper.dement has left

  31. rainslide has left

  32. alacer has left

  33. rishiraj22 has left

  34. rishiraj22 has joined

  35. jjrh has left

  36. jere has left

  37. jere has joined

  38. alacer has joined

  39. j.r has joined

  40. j.r has joined

  41. kasper.dement has joined

  42. kasper.dement has left

  43. moparisthebest has left

  44. moparisthebest has left

  45. moparisthebest has left

  46. moparisthebest has joined

  47. alacer has left

  48. kasper.dement has joined

  49. j.r has joined

  50. j.r has joined

  51. kasper.dement has left

  52. kasper.dement has joined

  53. alexis has joined

  54. alexis has left

  55. alexis has joined

  56. alexis has left

  57. alexis has joined

  58. alexis has left

  59. alexis has joined

  60. alexis has left

  61. alexis has joined

  62. kasper.dement has joined

  63. alexis has left

  64. efrit has left

  65. alexis has joined

  66. alexis has left

  67. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  68. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  69. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  70. alexis has joined

  71. Chobbes has joined

  72. j.r has joined

  73. alexis has left

  74. alexis has joined

  75. Nekit has joined

  76. j.r has joined

  77. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  78. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  79. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  80. rainslide has joined

  81. jjrh has left

  82. alexis has joined

  83. rainslide has left

  84. alacer has joined

  85. labdsf has left

  86. alexis has left

  87. alexis has joined

  88. rishiraj22 has left

  89. alacer has left

  90. rishiraj22 has left

  91. rion has joined

  92. alexis has left

  93. alexis has joined

  94. kasper.dement has joined

  95. bear has left

  96. j.r has joined

  97. j.r has joined

  98. j.r has left

  99. j.r has joined

  100. rion has left

  101. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  102. rishiraj22 has left

  103. rishiraj22 has left

  104. lnj has joined

  105. ta has joined

  106. ta has joined

  107. kasper.dement has joined

  108. Chobbes has joined

  109. Chobbes has joined

  110. rishiraj22 has left

  111. j.r has left

  112. j.r has joined

  113. kasper.dement has left

  114. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  115. lnj has left

  116. moparisthebest has joined

  117. moparisthebest has joined

  118. lnj has joined

  119. j.r has joined

  120. moparisthebest has left

  121. alexis has joined

  122. moparisthebest has joined

  123. alexis has left

  124. alexis has joined

  125. jere has joined

  126. SamWhited has left

  127. Tobias has left

  128. Tobias has joined

  129. Guus has left

  130. Guus has joined

  131. lorddavidiii has left

  132. rainslide has joined

  133. tux has left

  134. tux has joined

  135. flow

    labdsf, caps still work with routing-ng (or why shouldn't they) and you are still able to send messages to the full jid

  136. alexis has joined

  137. j.r has joined

  138. rainslide has left

  139. jonasw

    labdsf, please close PRs which shouldn’t be merged

  140. jonasw

    you can make a new one later

  141. jonasw

    open PRs clutter the view

  142. Nekit has joined

  143. ralphm has left

  144. flo has joined

  145. jubalh has joined

  146. labdsf

    ok, closed

  147. labdsf

    I can even reopen it

  148. jonasw


  149. jonasw

    thank you d)

  150. andy has joined

  151. flo has left

  152. Nekit has left

  153. mrdoctorwho has left

  154. mrdoctorwho has joined

  155. Nekit has joined

  156. mrdoctorwho has joined

  157. Kev has joined

  158. Guus has left

  159. Guus has joined

  160. lovetox has joined

  161. xnyhps has joined

  162. xnyhps has joined

  163. vanitasvitae has left

  164. labdsf has left

  165. daniel has left

  166. daniel has joined

  167. j.r has joined

  168. alexis has joined

  169. alexis has left

  170. j.r has joined

  171. alexis has joined

  172. ralphm has joined

  173. Chobbes has joined

  174. Tobias has left

  175. Tobias has joined

  176. xnyhps has left

  177. xnyhps has joined

  178. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  179. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  180. Guus has left

  181. Guus has joined

  182. mimi89999 has left

  183. mimi89999 has joined

  184. xnyhps has left

  185. xnyhps has joined

  186. Guus has left

  187. Guus has joined

  188. alexis has left

  189. Chobbes has joined

  190. xnyhps has left

  191. Dave Cridland has left

  192. Dave Cridland has joined

  193. xnyhps has joined

  194. daniel has left

  195. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  196. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  197. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  198. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  199. Guus has left

  200. Guus has joined

  201. SaltyBones has left

  202. blabla has joined

  203. Valerian has joined

  204. j.r has joined

  205. SaltyBones has joined

  206. alexis has joined

  207. Dave Cridland has left

  208. alacer has joined

  209. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  210. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  211. kasper.dement has joined

  212. goffi has joined

  213. Dave Cridland has left

  214. alacer has left

  215. alacer has joined

  216. kasper.dement has left

  217. alacer has left

  218. jubalh has left

  219. karp has left

  220. karp has joined

  221. j.r has joined

  222. Guus has left

  223. Guus has joined

  224. ralphm has left

  225. Dave Cridland has left

  226. Guus has left

  227. alexis has left

  228. Guus has joined

  229. Guus has left

  230. Guus has joined

  231. Guus has left

  232. Guus has joined

  233. SaltyBones has left

  234. karp has left

  235. karp has joined

  236. Guus has left

  237. ralphm has joined

  238. jubalh has joined

  239. Guus has joined

  240. Guus has left

  241. Guus has joined

  242. Dave Cridland has joined

  243. mrdoctorwho has left

  244. marmistrz has joined

  245. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  246. alacer has joined

  247. kasper.dement has joined

  248. Dave Cridland has left

  249. Dave Cridland has joined

  250. alacer has left

  251. Syndace has left

  252. Syndace has joined

  253. kasper.dement has left

  254. Holger has left

  255. karp has left

  256. karp has joined

  257. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  258. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  259. la|r|ma has joined

  260. Dave Cridland has left

  261. Dave Cridland has joined

  262. daniel has left

  263. j.r has joined

  264. waqas has left

  265. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  266. MattJ has left

  267. Valerian has left

  268. vanitasvitae has left

  269. Valerian has joined

  270. Valerian has left

  271. Valerian has joined

  272. muppeth has joined

  273. vanitasvitae has joined

  274. la|r|ma has joined

  275. la|r|ma has joined

  276. Valerian has left

  277. Valerian has joined

  278. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  279. Valerian has left

  280. Valerian has joined

  281. Dave Cridland has left

  282. Dave Cridland has joined

  283. Valerian has left

  284. tux has left

  285. labdsf has left

  286. SaltyBones has joined

  287. Valerian has joined

  288. la|r|ma has joined

  289. alacer has joined

  290. lskdjf has joined

  291. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  292. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  293. rishiraj22 has left

  294. Dave Cridland has left

  295. Dave Cridland has joined

  296. marmistrz has left

  297. sezuan has joined

  298. j.r has joined

  299. marmistrz has left

  300. blabla has joined

  301. Ge0rG has left

  302. Dave Cridland has left

  303. Dave Cridland has joined

  304. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  305. alacer has left

  306. alacer has joined

  307. Dave Cridland has left

  308. Dave Cridland has joined

  309. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  310. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  311. Kev has left

  312. Chobbes has joined

  313. rishiraj22 has left

  314. rishiraj22 has joined

  315. rainslide has joined

  316. sezuan has left

  317. Kev has left

  318. alacer has left

  319. Valerian has left

  320. sezuan has joined

  321. alacer has joined

  322. la|r|ma has joined

  323. Syndace has left

  324. Syndace has joined

  325. Chobbes has joined

  326. kasper.dement has joined

  327. sezuan has left

  328. sezuan has joined

  329. alexis has joined

  330. Valerian has joined

  331. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  332. andy has left

  333. andy has joined

  334. rishiraj22 has left

  335. rishiraj22 has joined

  336. jubalh has joined

  337. labdsf

    flow: i mean, when I send messages to bare JID, I cannot know which capabilities the receiving client has

  338. rainslide has left

  339. jonasw

    labdsf, there are use-cases where you want to send to a single device, for example for IQ-based protocols and stuff like Jingle

  340. rion has joined

  341. labdsf

    So ok, I can simply send message to all full JIDs that I think have required capabilities

  342. labdsf

    And attach no-copy hint

  343. jonasw

    except that they’re not archived

  344. labdsf

    Not archived by MAM is ok

  345. jonasw


  346. labdsf

    For ephemeral messages that is exactly what I want

  347. jonasw

    I am strictly against introducing another reason why messages don’t appear on all devices.

  348. jonasw

    OMEMO itself is bad enough already.

  349. lnj has left

  350. labdsf

    If I send to all full JIDs, then it will appear on all online devices

  351. labdsf

    I think we need a better way to deliver messages to offline devices

  352. lnj has joined

  353. Kev

    We have it, it's MAM.

  354. jubalh has left

  355. jubalh has joined

  356. labdsf

    It does not deliver messages to full JID

  357. jonasw

    labdsf, except that the device may be going offlnie exactly in that moment you send the message

  358. jonasw

    and come back online a secodn later

  359. jonasw

    without the user noticing

  360. kasper.dement has joined

  361. jonasw

    (badly timed SM resumption can cause this behaviour)

  362. kasper.dement has joined

  363. labdsf

    How about updating XEP 0160 to say that messages send with no-copy should be postponed and delivered to exactly that full jid, not some random with positive priority?

  364. labdsf


  365. labdsf

    Or return service-unavailable at least

  366. jonasw

    labdsf, also, what if: 1. you check device support 2. you send a message to all full JIDs you want to 3. your network is slow and the message is delayed 4. one of your target devices goes offline 5. another device from that user comes online which does *not* have the feature you were looking for, but uses the same resource 6. your message was delivered to the wrong device

  367. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  368. labdsf

    jonasw: do not use the same resource

  369. jonasw

    you can’t force your peer to not do that

  370. jonasw

    using the resource for that kind of stuff is inherently racy because it’s an inherently temporary thing

  371. labdsf

    I think using unique resources is the best practice

  372. Kev

    And remember that clients don't get to choose their resources, the server does.

  373. labdsf

    Otherwise we cannot do anything but say that capabilities are totally unreliable

  374. jonasw

    labdsf, that’s what we’ve been doing for a while now :)

  375. lnj has left

  376. jonasw

    for IQ based stuff it’s okay, and for things like jingle where there’s constant feedback, but using it for messaging is not a good idea

  377. Kev

    It's generally ok, but not foolproof.

  378. labdsf

    Except that capabilities XEP mentions XHTML-IM in the introduction, which is messaging use case

  379. jonasw

    labdsf, it’s also old

  380. labdsf

    I would rather slowly improve offline message delivery then declare that nothing is reliable in XMPP and we should just send everything to bare JID with store hint and body and save it in MAM forever

  381. Valerian has left

  382. Valerian has joined

  383. jonasw

    labdsf, why not?

  384. Valerian has left

  385. labdsf

    Because it is impossible to implement any extension that relies on client support on top of that

  386. alacer has left

  387. Dave Cridland has left

  388. Dave Cridland has joined

  389. Dave Cridland has left

  390. Dave Cridland has joined

  391. labdsf

    Lets say, replies, editing messages other than the last etc.

  392. alacer has joined

  393. labdsf

    OMEMO has to put encryption keys for *all* devices except the one it is intended for

  394. Dave Cridland has left

  395. Dave Cridland has joined

  396. Dave Cridland has left

  397. Dave Cridland has joined

  398. Dave Cridland has left

  399. Dave Cridland has joined

  400. Dave Cridland has left

  401. Dave Cridland has joined

  402. lnj has joined

  403. labdsf

    Adding body to OMEMO messages is a kludge also

  404. labdsf

    There are two problems with full JIDs: 1. No way to get list of offline resources 2. No reliable delivery to offline resources

  405. labdsf

    Both are fixable on server side

  406. Kev

    (1) That's what a presence subscription gives you (2) That's because there's no such thing as an offline resource.

  407. jonasw

    Kev, how does presence subscription give you a list of *offline* resources?

  408. Kev

    Sorry, I read *online* resources. It also gives you a full list of offline resources - it's an empty list because they don't exist :)

  409. jonasw


  410. Kev

    We do need to track offline clients for assorted reasons, but those are offline clients, not offline resources.

  411. labdsf

    Ok, "offline resource" means a resource that offline client will use when it reconnect

  412. MattJ

    There is no way to know what resource a client will use when it reconnects

  413. MattJ

    A resource is a session identifier for an online session only

  414. goffi has left

  415. MattJ

    As much as it would be nice to imagine it is a device identifier, it is not - there is no standard for that, and it's not what most clients do

  416. jonasw


  417. MattJ

    I would like to change both of those things

  418. labdsf

    If it randomizes resource every time, it should be fixed IMO, or don't expect to get messages other than those sent to bare JID

  419. jonasw

    (I don’t expect messages except those sent to the bare JID.)

  420. jonasw

    (and I don’t think we should send normal IM to anything *but* the bare JID.)

  421. MattJ


  422. jonasw

    labdsf, the right way to handle stuff like XHTML-Im etc. is to provide a sensible fallback for clients which do not support it

  423. jonasw

    the protocol must be designed in such a way that legacy clients do the right thing

  424. labdsf

    MattJ: agreed to me or jonasw?

  425. MattJ

    jonasw, but I do agree that clients should not request a random resource for every session

  426. daniel has left

  427. MattJ

    I also agree that a client cannot assume it will get *every* message sent to a full JID, but that one is far less clear

  428. labdsf

    Instead of MAM, server can list resources used by offline client for a week or so, with cached capabilities, and store offline messages sent to them for some time

  429. MattJ

    and sending to full JID is, like random client-requested resources, something we now want to discourage

  430. MattJ

    I already have most of an implementation of that, FWIW

  431. MattJ

    But I still don't think that means what you think it means

  432. MattJ

    Just because the server can track devices, doesn't necessarily mean they will always have the same resource

  433. MattJ

    It's potentially something you don't want to leak to third parties

  434. marmistrz has left

  435. la|r|ma has left

  436. la|r|ma has joined

  437. daniel has left

  438. daniel has left

  439. daniel has left

  440. daniel has left

  441. j.r has joined

  442. rishiraj22 has left

  443. marmistrz has joined

  444. flow

    yet we do it as soon as a client replies with a message

  445. Kev

    We leak resources, we don't necessarily leak devices, because resources and devices aren't a 1:1 mapping over time.

  446. flow

    true, I still wonder if we shouldn't try to address that by adding a way to send messages from the bare JID. although I fear that this would probably break some (receiving) clients

  447. jere has joined

  448. daniel has left

  449. daniel has left

  450. j.r has joined

  451. rishiraj22 has left

  452. rishiraj22 has joined

  453. daniel has left

  454. daniel has left

  455. rishiraj22 has left

  456. rishiraj22 has joined

  457. Valerian has joined

  458. daniel has left

  459. winfried has left

  460. winfried has joined

  461. daniel has left

  462. labdsf

    flow: or just introduce a virtual "proxy" resource maintained for you by the servet

  463. labdsf


  464. Kev has left

  465. labdsf

    MattJ: what are the drawbacks of "leaking" a list of resources. Third party will know how many devices you have, anything else?

  466. MattJ

    Not that I can immediately think of

  467. MattJ

    It's not just how many, it's when you use certain devices also

  468. MattJ

    e.g. someone can track you between work and home if you have a device in each location

  469. Valerian has left

  470. MattJ

    People used to explicitly set resources like /Home and /Work (well, some clients defaulted to things like that also), but I think we know better than to share things like that by default in 2018

  471. flow

    labdsf, the resource string is the only thing between a remote entity and your device. if a remote does know it, they can send stanzas which will very likely reach your device (compared to "probably reach your device"). For example, someone knowing the resource of your mobile could write a script which sends "silent" messages every minute or so, in an attempt to drain your battery without you noticing it

  472. Seve/SouL

    MattJ, did you or someone else publish something regarding the newsletter? I've been not able to catch up lately and I wonder if I missed something

  473. rishiraj22 has left

  474. Seve/SouL

    sorry, not the newsletter, where do I have my braind today...

  475. Seve/SouL

    The survey

  476. daniel has left

  477. MattJ

    Seve/SouL, not yet

  478. vanitasvitae has left

  479. alacer has left

  480. jonasw

    flow, itym "reach that specific device" instead of "reach your device"

  481. jonasw

    because sending to the bare JID would normally cause the device to receive the message for sure at some point

  482. jonasw

    (in the ideal IM-NG world)

  483. Seve/SouL

    Ok ok, no rush MattJ, just worried about myself missing stuff :)

  484. Valerian has joined

  485. flow

    jonasw, yes, if we did im-ng, but I deliberatly did not take it into condsideration because there are still many open questions

  486. alacer has joined

  487. jonasw

    flow, help to solve them :)

  488. rishiraj22 has left

  489. flow

    jonasw, if it only where so easy ;)

  490. rishiraj22 has joined

  491. flow

    hmm "if it only would be that easy"

  492. jubalh has joined

  493. kasper.dement has joined

  494. alexis has joined

  495. daniel has left

  496. alexis has left

  497. alexis has joined

  498. alexis has left

  499. alexis has joined

  500. alacer has left

  501. lorddavidiii has left

  502. Kev has left

  503. lumi has joined

  504. alacer has joined

  505. jjrh has left

  506. kasper.dement has joined

  507. marmistrz has left

  508. j.r has joined

  509. alacer has left

  510. alacer has joined

  511. karp has left

  512. karp has joined

  513. jjrh has left

  514. muppeth has left

  515. igor75 has left

  516. igor75 has joined

  517. muppeth has joined

  518. muppeth has left

  519. igor75 has left

  520. j.r has left

  521. j.r has joined

  522. igor75 has joined

  523. muppeth has joined

  524. lovetox has left

  525. sezuan has left

  526. blabla has joined

  527. muppeth has left

  528. igor75 has left

  529. muppeth has joined

  530. igor75 has joined

  531. kasper.dement has joined

  532. alacer has left

  533. alacer has joined

  534. lorddavidiii has left

  535. marc has joined

  536. kasper.dement has left

  537. lumi has joined

  538. Valerian has left

  539. Valerian has joined

  540. Valerian has left

  541. muppeth has left

  542. igor75 has left

  543. muppeth has joined

  544. igor75 has joined

  545. lskdjf has left

  546. Valerian has joined

  547. kasper.dement has joined

  548. mrdoctorwho has joined

  549. lorddavidiii has joined

  550. pep. has left

  551. andy has left

  552. Chobbes has joined

  553. igor75 has left

  554. muppeth has left

  555. igor75 has joined

  556. muppeth has joined

  557. j.r has joined

  558. j.r has joined

  559. Chobbes has joined

  560. jubalh has left

  561. lskdjf has joined

  562. kasper.dement has left

  563. lumi has joined

  564. daniel has left

  565. tux has joined

  566. jjrh has left

  567. Kev has joined

  568. houzhenhong has joined

  569. houzhenhong has left

  570. kasper.dement has joined

  571. jjrh has left

  572. jjrh has left

  573. daniel has left

  574. muppeth has joined

  575. igor75 has left

  576. igor75 has joined

  577. dos has joined

  578. igor75 has left

  579. igor75 has joined

  580. muppeth has joined

  581. Chobbes has joined

  582. muppeth has left

  583. igor75 has left

  584. igor75 has joined

  585. kasper.dement has joined

  586. muppeth has joined

  587. kasper.dement has joined

  588. jubalh has joined

  589. kasper.dement has left

  590. dos has left

  591. Tobias has left

  592. Tobias has joined

  593. jubalh has left

  594. jubalh has joined

  595. jubalh has left

  596. jubalh has joined

  597. Chobbes has joined

  598. j.r has joined

  599. kasper.dement has joined

  600. lorddavidiii has left

  601. jubalh has left

  602. kasper.dement has left

  603. SamWhited has left

  604. Dave Cridland has left

  605. Dave Cridland has joined

  606. rainslide has joined

  607. rishiraj22 has left

  608. rishiraj22 has joined

  609. rishiraj22 has left

  610. rishiraj22 has joined

  611. lorddavidiii has joined

  612. kasper.dement has joined

  613. Chobbes has joined

  614. vanitasvitae has left

  615. jjrh has left

  616. Kev has left

  617. goffi has left

  618. lorddavidiii has left

  619. sezuan has joined

  620. Dave Cridland has left

  621. Dave Cridland has joined

  622. goffi has joined

  623. jubalh has joined

  624. alexis has left

  625. alexis has joined

  626. jjrh has left

  627. kasper.dement has left

  628. labdsf has left

  629. Dave Cridland has left

  630. Dave Cridland has joined

  631. daniel has left

  632. Dave Cridland has left

  633. Dave Cridland has joined

  634. Nekit has left

  635. Nekit has joined

  636. Dave Cridland has left

  637. Dave Cridland has joined

  638. matlag has left

  639. matlag has left

  640. Dave Cridland has left

  641. lorddavidiii has joined

  642. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  643. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  644. alacer has left

  645. alacer has joined

  646. ThibG has left

  647. ThibG has joined

  648. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  649. waqas has joined

  650. muppeth has joined

  651. muppeth has joined

  652. matlag has joined

  653. sezuan has left

  654. sezuan has joined

  655. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  656. igor75 has left

  657. muppeth has left

  658. sezuan has left

  659. sezuan has joined

  660. muppeth has joined

  661. igor75 has joined

  662. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  663. ta has joined

  664. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  665. rainslide has left

  666. alexis has left

  667. Valerian has left

  668. Valerian has joined

  669. Valerian has left

  670. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  671. SamWhited has left

  672. Chobbes has joined

  673. marmistrz has left

  674. alacer has left

  675. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  676. efrit has joined

  677. blabla has left

  678. blabla has joined

  679. alexis has joined

  680. efrit has left

  681. efrit has joined

  682. efrit has left

  683. efrit has joined

  684. lskdjf has left

  685. Chobbes has joined

  686. la|r|ma has left

  687. efrit has left

  688. efrit has joined

  689. lskdjf has joined

  690. ralphm has left

  691. Dave Cridland has left

  692. Dave Cridland has joined

  693. Chobbes has joined

  694. Yagiza has joined

  695. j.r has joined

  696. alexis has joined

  697. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  698. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  699. alexis has left

  700. alexis has joined

  701. la|r|ma has joined

  702. alexis has left

  703. la|r|ma has joined

  704. la|r|ma has joined

  705. goffi has left

  706. la|r|ma has joined

  707. la|r|ma has joined

  708. la|r|ma has joined

  709. la|r|ma has joined

  710. efrit has left

  711. efrit has joined

  712. efrit has left

  713. vanitasvitae has left

  714. efrit has joined

  715. la|r|ma has joined

  716. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  717. alexis has joined

  718. labdsf has left

  719. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  720. Dave Cridland has left

  721. Dave Cridland has joined

  722. vanitasvitae has left

  723. j.r has joined

  724. kasper.dement has joined

  725. j.r has joined

  726. daniel has left

  727. jubalh has joined

  728. moparisthebest has left

  729. vanitasvitae has left

  730. ralphm has joined

  731. rainslide has joined

  732. j.r has joined

  733. j.r has joined

  734. marmistrz has left

  735. Dave Cridland has left

  736. daniel has left

  737. rainslide has left

  738. kasper.dement has left

  739. Dave Cridland has joined

  740. jubalh has joined

  741. jubalh has joined

  742. Dave Cridland has left

  743. kasper.dement has joined

  744. Lance has joined

  745. marmistrz has left

  746. alacer has joined

  747. dos has joined

  748. lskdjf has joined

  749. lskdjf has joined

  750. kasper.dement has left

  751. muppeth has joined

  752. ta has joined

  753. ta has joined

  754. rion has left

  755. jubalh has joined

  756. muppeth has joined

  757. marmistrz has left

  758. jubalh has joined

  759. jubalh has left

  760. jubalh has joined

  761. Lance has left

  762. efrit has left

  763. Tobias has joined

  764. Tobias has joined

  765. Valerian has joined

  766. anjan has left

  767. la|r|ma has joined

  768. la|r|ma has left

  769. alacer has left

  770. Lance has joined

  771. Nekit has left

  772. Nekit has joined

  773. Tobias has left

  774. daniel has left

  775. Tobias has joined

  776. ralphm has left

  777. lskdjf has left

  778. lskdjf has left

  779. Dave Cridland has left

  780. Dave Cridland has joined

  781. Dave Cridland has left

  782. Dave Cridland has joined

  783. ta has left

  784. ta has joined

  785. kasper.dement has joined

  786. goffi has joined

  787. sezuan has left

  788. rishiraj22 has left

  789. rishiraj22 has joined

  790. jubalh has left

  791. jubalh has joined

  792. Lance has left

  793. daniel has left

  794. lorddavidiii has left

  795. jubalh has joined

  796. jubalh has joined

  797. labdsf has left

  798. kasper.dement has left

  799. moparisthebest has joined

  800. lorddavidiii has joined

  801. Guus has left

  802. Guus has joined

  803. marmistrz has joined

  804. jubalh has joined

  805. jubalh has joined

  806. labdsf has left

  807. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  808. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  809. j.r has left

  810. j.r has joined

  811. jjrh has left

  812. marmistrz has left

  813. j.r has left

  814. j.r has joined

  815. kasper.dement has joined

  816. SaltyBones has left

  817. SaltyBones has joined

  818. lskdjf has joined

  819. lskdjf has joined

  820. Lance has joined

  821. moparisthebest has joined

  822. lskdjf has left

  823. lskdjf has left

  824. kasper.dement has left

  825. marmistrz has left

  826. Lance has left

  827. daniel has left

  828. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  829. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  830. kasper.dement has joined

  831. Chobbes has joined

  832. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  833. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  834. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  835. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  836. anjan has left

  837. rishiraj22 has left

  838. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  839. rishiraj22 has joined

  840. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  841. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  842. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  843. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  844. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  845. daniel has left

  846. daniel has left

  847. kasper.dement has left

  848. moparisthebest has joined

  849. kasper.dement has joined

  850. SamWhited has left

  851. Dave Cridland has left

  852. Dave Cridland has joined

  853. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  854. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  855. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  856. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  857. alexis has joined

  858. jubalh has joined

  859. alexis has left

  860. alexis has joined

  861. Yagiza has left

  862. kasper.dement has joined

  863. rishiraj22 has left

  864. goffi has left

  865. Chobbes has joined

  866. Chobbes has joined

  867. alexis has joined

  868. anjan has joined

  869. alexis has left

  870. alexis has joined

  871. alexis has left

  872. lnj has left

  873. anjan has left

  874. ta has left

  875. ta has joined

  876. moparisthebest has joined

  877. alexis has joined

  878. sezuan has joined

  879. marmistrz has left

  880. kasper.dement has joined

  881. rion has joined

  882. Kev has left

  883. alexis has joined

  884. Valerian has left

  885. tux has joined

  886. j.r has joined

  887. kasper.dement has left

  888. kasper.dement has joined

  889. rishiraj22 has left

  890. dos has left

  891. alexis has joined

  892. daniel has left

  893. moparisthebest has joined

  894. kasper.dement has left

  895. ralphm has joined

  896. efrit has joined

  897. kasper.dement has joined

  898. rion has left

  899. marc has left

  900. labdsf

    flow, what if someone sents silent messages to bare JID?

  901. efrit has left

  902. jubalh has joined

  903. labdsf

    MattJ, where can I find your implementation of offline message delivery?

  904. j.r has joined

  905. MattJ

    labdsf: on my laptop

  906. labdsf

    so it is not in https://hg.prosody.im/trunk/ yet?

  907. MattJ


  908. MattJ

    It will probably be in prosody-modules first

  909. MattJ

    Too much of this is new and experimental

  910. labdsf

    is there any description of it, maybe in ML?

  911. MattJ

    But I am writing it with the full intention of it replacing the current code we have

  912. MattJ

    No, and to be honest I have mostly avoided talking about it until recently

  913. MattJ

    There is not really anything to discuss

  914. MattJ

    For the initial implementation it will need no protocol changes, and no client changes

  915. labdsf

    but still, you will keep disconnected resources around, they will be seen in presence and it will be possible to send messages to them, right?

  916. MattJ

    No, as I said earlier a resource is not a device

  917. MattJ

    I am not trying to change that

  918. MattJ

    Prosody will track devices, but that does not necessarily mean sessions will have predictable resource strings

  919. alexis has joined

  920. labdsf

    if some client uses the same resource string on every connection, and no other client uses the same resource string, the message will be delivered to that device only?

  921. MattJ

    Send a message to a full JID, use no-copy and Prosody will deliver to that device only

  922. labdsf

    and if there is no no-copy, it is delivered to some other resource, as per https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0160.html ?

  923. SamWhited has left

  924. MattJ

    As I wrote, I am not trying to change any protocols or behaviour beyond what should reasonably be expected

  925. MattJ

    If the device is online when you send the message, it is not an offline message

  926. MattJ

    It will go to that device

  927. MattJ

    If you send to a resource that is not online, core routing rules apply as always, it will be redirected

  928. MattJ

    If all devices are offline it's an offline message

  929. alexis has left

  930. marmistrz has left

  931. labdsf

    what happens if there is some device online, message has no no-copy and resource it is sent to 1) was used before 2) was never used before

  932. labdsf

    and what if there is no-copy and resource was never used before, message is lost?

  933. alexis has joined

  934. kasper.dement has left

  935. MattJ

    You're over-thinking it... the answer to all the questions is essentially: "exactly the same as happens now"

  936. MattJ

    Whether a resource was used before is completely irrelevant - resources are temporary, and they belong to a session

  937. MattJ

    Prosody is not tracking resources, it is not making resources persistent in any way

  938. MattJ

    Prosody is tracking devices. Devices != resources

  939. labdsf

    how does it track devices, besides the resource string they request on connection?

  940. MattJ

    XEP-0198 session token is another way, for example

  941. MattJ

    A client could try to resume a session, fail (because the session timed out), and then it goes on to bind a completely random resource

  942. MattJ

    Same device, different resource

  943. alexis has joined

  944. Zash

    Except not, because the device was killed by the OS and all that was lost

  945. marmistrz has joined

  946. labdsf

    the device can try to save SM id in some persistent database

  947. MattJ

    Zash, tangential to the devices != resources point :)

  948. Zash


  949. MattJ

    labdsf, I would eventually like bind2 or some alternative to be implemented, and allow the client to unambigously send a unique id

  950. MattJ

    But as I mentioned, my current scope involves no protocol changes

  951. MattJ

    After it's done, bind2/something will become more of a priority

  952. daniel

    saving the id only wont help you. you'd have to save the entire state

  953. MattJ


  954. daniel

    but on mobile the push target is another nice id for the device

  955. daniel

    clients will enable that in every session

  956. waqas has left

  957. MattJ

    Ah, good point, thanks :)

  958. daniel

    but maybe too late depending on what you are trying to do

  959. alexis has left

  960. MattJ

    No, it's easily extended to that

  961. MattJ

    Though I would like the push target to become part of bind as well

  962. kasper.dement has joined

  963. alexis has joined

  964. MattJ

    Kinda "this is another way to reach me" metadata associated with the session

  965. jjrh has left

  966. daniel has left

  967. lorddavidiii has left

  968. kasper.dement has left

  969. j.r has joined

  970. SamWhited has left

  971. Kev has left

  972. kasper.dement has joined

  973. SamWhited has left

  974. valo has left

  975. Chobbes has joined

  976. ThibG has joined

  977. valo has joined

  978. ThibG has joined

  979. daniel has left

  980. daniel has joined

  981. Guus has left

  982. Guus has joined

  983. labdsf

    MattJ, how is it different from mod_smacks_offline?

  984. labdsf

    it just places message for offline delivery, and you try to deliver it to the correct device instead?

  985. MattJ

    mod_smacks_offline is not ideal, it doesn't work with multiple resources online

  986. labdsf

    it just delivers to the resource with highest priority?

  987. MattJ

    If deviceA and deviceB are both online, if deviceB goes offline and does not resume, and there is an unacked message in the queue, there is a question about what to do

  988. MattJ

    It can't save it to the offline message store, because there is another device still online

  989. MattJ

    it could send it to that other device

  990. MattJ

    but that device possibly already received it

  991. MattJ

    via bare-JID forking or through carbons

  992. MattJ


  993. kasper.dement has joined

  994. MattJ

    so you end up with duplicated messages or bounced messages. In the case of a single resource going offline, with no other resources, it's simple to just save it to the offline store

  995. MattJ

    Next resource to log in receives it

  996. labdsf

    ok, current default is that it is just lost

  997. labdsf

    and what will you do instead with the new code?

  998. MattJ

    Current default (mod_smacks) is to send an error reply to the sender

  999. j.r has joined

  1000. MattJ

    Which works fine, and is the safe option

  1001. MattJ

    ...except when the sender has gone offline

  1002. Zash

    or ignore all of that and Just Use MAM™

  1003. MattJ

    labdsf, new code tracks devices and what stanzas/messages they need to receive

  1004. jjrh has left

  1005. MattJ

    which means the mod_smacks problem is solved, because the code can focus on delivery to a single device, and not worry about whether other resources are online/offline/etc.

  1006. MattJ

    so at the time of forking/carbons/etc. that is when it gets decided what device receives what stanza

  1007. MattJ

    Instead of 5-15min later "Oops, that failed to deliver, now where should we send it?"

  1008. rainslide has joined

  1009. labdsf

    MattJ, so what will be different, you will try to identify deviceB even after timeout?

  1010. rainslide has left

  1011. marmistrz has joined

  1012. j.r has joined

  1013. kasper.dement has joined

  1014. blabla has left

  1015. blabla has joined

  1016. SamWhited has left

  1017. kasper.dement has left

  1018. j.r has joined

  1019. kasper.dement has joined

  1020. j.r has joined

  1021. la|r|ma has joined

  1022. la|r|ma has joined

  1023. rainslide has joined

  1024. moparisthebest has left

  1025. moparisthebest has joined

  1026. rainslide has left

  1027. la|r|ma has left

  1028. kasper.dement has joined

  1029. Dave Cridland has left

  1030. Dave Cridland has joined

  1031. Dave Cridland has left

  1032. Dave Cridland has joined

  1033. j.r has joined

  1034. waqas has joined

  1035. j.r has joined

  1036. Neustradamus has joined

  1037. marmistrz has left

  1038. marmistrz has joined

  1039. goffi has left

  1040. Neustradamus has left

  1041. Neustradamus has joined

  1042. jere has joined