XSF Discussion - 2018-07-01

I did say that such a receipt should use xep198 FWIW

MattJ, you get a bunch of small emails all the time

jonasw, do you know if it would be possible to filter those messages into an extra mailbox/folder?

flow, of course that’s possible

> Andrew Nenakhov: what's the problem with storing receipts in MAM? Clients are overtasked with loading extra data from archive. No set standard, clients work differently. Some clients imolementations break other clients work with archive. Lots of receipts are stored in archive as separate messages, no way to clean that. No reliable read receipts data if we start loading from random point. It's yet another ad-hoc solution to fix issues that are not addressed in standards. Some people prefer to be oblivious to such issues and pretend that xmpp is fine. It is not, currently it fails to address the most basic users needs, no wonder market is taken by Telegram and WhatsApp and the likes.

> the most basic users needs Someone™ should do some kind of study to determine what this means

I did such study.

Users want reliable message delivery, nice read markers, nice search, easy setup.

Oh an all their contacts to use this app.

Whatsapp viber and telegram deliver that, while xmpp community argues about anonymous MUCs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Network effects trump all other issues tho

Oh and what users wants isn't necessarily the same thing as users needs

Telegram started just 5 years ago, to crowded market, had no network affext at all.

It was just plain awesome.

Marketing to bootstrap network effects

Andrew Nenakhov: what kind of users, server side search is directly contrary to e2e and all the users I know want e2e

Almost as if there is no one size fits all solution

Most likely you know only a small specific subset of users

E2ee everywhere is stupid bullshit )

Or maybe you do :(

Or maybe both of us

I for one do not want any encryption.

I for one don't want any plaintext

And everyone wants different things

Seamless sync between devices is way more important for me than some fake promise of security.

I see no point to plaintext anywhere since encryption is essentially free

I have that and encryption so...

It's not free. It comes at the expense of search. And seamless sync.

I can have good search on my device

Try logging in from web browser and read your past texts

And again I already have seamless sync between devices

Telegram delivers that.

moparisthebest, > Try logging in from web browser and read your past texts

Along with e2e right?

No, not with e2e. Telegram actually does e2e cleverly.

That's a choice between forward secrecy or not, not encryption or not

Xmpp can do that using PGP

Forward secrecy is bullshit too )

If you think so you have PGP

Also the entire internet disagrees but that's beside the point

Anyway, guys, if you think that all is fine with xmpp, well, I can't help it.

TLS 1.3 removes all non forward secret ciphers

moparisthebest, users don't really even know what forward secrecy is anyway.

It can be improved certainly

That's what we are doing here right?

Yeah. But I'd rather have a nice read markers that are nicely stored on server in a right way.

Ok that sounds very solvable

And have a nice group chats instead of this muc nonsense.

Yea everyone agrees with that I think

The discussion is whether that is mix or not, it's really been almost the only one submitted though

Mucsub could be nice, so could your thing, neither have been submitted officially I think

Not really only one, we're working on a really great and rather simple group chat )

I posted basics in xsf mailing list.

Yea I'm familiar with the concept from that, when is the protoxep coming though? :)

Chat itself is working great, now work on admin part. Protoxep, ... Hopefully by the end of July.

Nice

Ok have to leave now. See you.