XSF Discussion - 2018-07-01

  1. flow

    I did say that such a receipt should use xep198 FWIW

  2. jonasw

    MattJ, you get a bunch of small emails all the time

  3. flow

    jonasw, do you know if it would be possible to filter those messages into an extra mailbox/folder?

  4. jonasw

    flow, of course that’s possible

  5. Andrew Nenakhov

    > Andrew Nenakhov: what's the problem with storing receipts in MAM? Clients are overtasked with loading extra data from archive. No set standard, clients work differently. Some clients imolementations break other clients work with archive. Lots of receipts are stored in archive as separate messages, no way to clean that. No reliable read receipts data if we start loading from random point. It's yet another ad-hoc solution to fix issues that are not addressed in standards. Some people prefer to be oblivious to such issues and pretend that xmpp is fine. It is not, currently it fails to address the most basic users needs, no wonder market is taken by Telegram and WhatsApp and the likes.

  6. Zash

    > the most basic users needs Someone™ should do some kind of study to determine what this means

  7. Andrew Nenakhov

    I did such study.

  8. Andrew Nenakhov

    Users want reliable message delivery, nice read markers, nice search, easy setup.

  9. Andrew Nenakhov

    Oh an all their contacts to use this app.

  10. Andrew Nenakhov

    Whatsapp viber and telegram deliver that, while xmpp community argues about anonymous MUCs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  11. Zash

    Network effects trump all other issues tho

  12. Zash

    Oh and what users wants isn't necessarily the same thing as users needs

  13. Andrew Nenakhov

    Telegram started just 5 years ago, to crowded market, had no network affext at all.

  14. Andrew Nenakhov

    It was just plain awesome.

  15. Zash

    Marketing to bootstrap network effects

  16. moparisthebest

    Andrew Nenakhov: what kind of users, server side search is directly contrary to e2e and all the users I know want e2e

  17. moparisthebest

    Almost as if there is no one size fits all solution

  18. Andrew Nenakhov

    Most likely you know only a small specific subset of users

  19. Andrew Nenakhov

    E2ee everywhere is stupid bullshit )

  20. moparisthebest

    Or maybe you do :(

  21. moparisthebest

    Or maybe both of us

  22. Andrew Nenakhov

    I for one do not want any encryption.

  23. moparisthebest

    I for one don't want any plaintext

  24. Zash

    And everyone wants different things

  25. Andrew Nenakhov

    Seamless sync between devices is way more important for me than some fake promise of security.

  26. moparisthebest

    I see no point to plaintext anywhere since encryption is essentially free

  27. moparisthebest

    I have that and encryption so...

  28. Andrew Nenakhov

    It's not free. It comes at the expense of search. And seamless sync.

  29. moparisthebest

    I can have good search on my device

  30. Andrew Nenakhov

    Try logging in from web browser and read your past texts

  31. moparisthebest

    And again I already have seamless sync between devices

  32. Andrew Nenakhov

    Telegram delivers that.

  33. Andrew Nenakhov

    moparisthebest, > Try logging in from web browser and read your past texts

  34. moparisthebest

    Along with e2e right?

  35. Andrew Nenakhov

    No, not with e2e. Telegram actually does e2e cleverly.

  36. moparisthebest

    That's a choice between forward secrecy or not, not encryption or not

  37. moparisthebest

    Xmpp can do that using PGP

  38. Andrew Nenakhov

    Forward secrecy is bullshit too )

  39. moparisthebest

    If you think so you have PGP

  40. moparisthebest

    Also the entire internet disagrees but that's beside the point

  41. Andrew Nenakhov

    Anyway, guys, if you think that all is fine with xmpp, well, I can't help it.

  42. moparisthebest

    TLS 1.3 removes all non forward secret ciphers

  43. Andrew Nenakhov

    moparisthebest, users don't really even know what forward secrecy is anyway.

  44. moparisthebest

    It can be improved certainly

  45. moparisthebest

    That's what we are doing here right?

  46. Andrew Nenakhov

    Yeah. But I'd rather have a nice read markers that are nicely stored on server in a right way.

  47. moparisthebest

    Ok that sounds very solvable

  48. Andrew Nenakhov

    And have a nice group chats instead of this muc nonsense.

  49. moparisthebest

    Yea everyone agrees with that I think

  50. moparisthebest

    The discussion is whether that is mix or not, it's really been almost the only one submitted though

  51. moparisthebest

    Mucsub could be nice, so could your thing, neither have been submitted officially I think

  52. Andrew Nenakhov

    Not really only one, we're working on a really great and rather simple group chat )

  53. Andrew Nenakhov

    I posted basics in xsf mailing list.

  54. moparisthebest

    Yea I'm familiar with the concept from that, when is the protoxep coming though? :)

  55. Andrew Nenakhov

    Chat itself is working great, now work on admin part. Protoxep, ... Hopefully by the end of July.

  56. moparisthebest


  57. Andrew Nenakhov

    Ok have to leave now. See you.