XSF Discussion - 2018-07-05

  1. jonasw

    so Daniel and Sam are reporting issues accessing the XSF MUCs. can somebody look into that, MattJ maybe?

  2. MattJ

    I can

  3. MattJ

    Do they have any more details?

  4. Ge0rG

    I'd just blame lack of self-awareness in typical MUC clients.

  5. jonasw

    MattJ, not more than whats on standards@

  6. jonasw

    I *guess* itโ€™ll be hard to ask them here ;-)

  7. Ge0rG

    Sam has been joining and leaving the council@ MUC yesterday, at least.

  8. edhelas

    I found a little typo on the main website "propriatary binary XMPP protocol."

  9. edhelas

    on https://xmpp.org/uses/social.html

  10. jonasw

    it should be "proprietary" right?

  11. jonasw

    fix pushed

  12. MattJ

    Yeah, problem confirmed... 5 stuck "pending" s2s connections (out of 200 successful ones), both Daniel's and Sam's servers are affected

  13. MattJ


  14. MattJ

    4 of the 5 point to xmpp-hosting.conversations.im.

  15. flow

    Hmm, conversations.im changed the host system

  16. jonasw

    there was some c.im downtime recently

  17. flow

    and IIRC sam also said that he migrated to a new system or something

  18. flow

    could that be a pattern?

  19. jonasw

    I havenโ€™t had issues with the migration from my side though

  20. jonasw

    (running prosody 0.9)

  21. MattJ

    flow, Sam is on xmpp-hosting.conversations.im now too

  22. Holger

    If there's anything I could check let me know.

  23. flow

    MattJ, what is the other stuck s2s connection that's not c.im?

  24. MattJ

    I don't recognise it (and will assume it's private for now)

  25. MattJ

    I'm going to upgrade the server, it's several releases behind

  26. jonasw

    to 0.10 or 0.9.x?

  27. MattJ

    0.10.2 of course :)

  28. edhelas

    jonasw yup :) thanks

  29. edhelas

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17461213 also

  30. MattJ

    Ok, I'm going to upgrade the server now, expect a little bit of downtime, hopefully brief

  31. jonasw

    good luck!

  32. Seve/SouL


  33. jonasw

    will you load mod_muc from trunk? :)

  34. MattJ

    jonasw, not yet :/

  35. jonasw

    ok :)

  36. edhelas


  37. MattJ


  38. Seve/SouL


  39. MattJ

    That was too easy

  40. Seve/SouL

    Haha :D

  41. Seve

    Now just wait for more people to join the party.

  42. Ge0rG

    Now just wait for people to realize that this MUC is too silent for too long.

  43. Seve


  44. edhelas


  45. edhelas


  46. Seve

    Heh :)

  47. Ge0rG

    That page about the myths of XMPP is only *slightly* biased.

  48. edhelas

    you're also invited to read and help with the rest of the thread, I'm trying to answer some questions in there

  49. Seve

    Thank you by the way, edhelas

  50. Seve

    Very appreciated to have people explaining thins!

  51. Seve


  52. nyco

    so, hey, hi! ๐Ÿ˜‰

  53. MattJ

    Oh hi

  54. MattJ

    Forgot it was that time

  55. Seve


  56. nyco


  57. ralphm set the topic to

    XSF Board Meeting| Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  58. ralphm bangs gavel

  59. ralphm

    0. Welcome and Agenda

  60. ralphm

    Who's here and do you have something for the Agenda?

  61. Guus

    me. no.

  62. MattJ

    Me, I can briefly state the status of the survey results and GDPR

  63. nyco


  64. ralphm

    Ok. Did we get minutes from last meeting?

  65. MattJ

    No :/

  66. 404.city

    Please add this pull requst https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/454

  67. MattJ

    I'd really appreciate if someone else could do that this week, I'm 2 weeks behind and am going to have less time over the next 7 days

  68. ralphm


  69. Guus

    nyco, can you please? I'm neck-deep in work

  70. ralphm

    Hoping someone will volunteer still, moving on.

  71. ralphm

    1. Survey results

  72. nyco

    me too

  73. nyco


  74. nyco


  75. nyco

    me too, but ok

  76. nyco


  77. ralphm

    we got you nyco

  78. nyco


  79. ralphm

    Go MattJ

  80. MattJ

    Survey results: I have collated the quantitive questions, and the priorities questions, which makes for the bulk of the results

  81. MattJ

    I don't have them in a nice format right now, but I can send them out right after the meeting once I figure something out

  82. Seve is excited.

  83. nyco

    yes, please... what's the top one?

  84. MattJ

    I grouped them by category, the category with the most responses was "Developer/community"

  85. nyco


  86. MattJ

    Containing suggestions such as organising workshops/etc.

  87. nyco


  88. nyco


  89. ralphm

    2. GDPR

  90. 404.city

    I'm here to ask about Githab?

  91. MattJ

    Nothing to report on the GDPR front currently

  92. ralphm

    404.city: we're in the middle of a meeting, can you please wait until after. It is not a Board topic.

  93. MattJ

    I'll try to put some time in over the next week or two

  94. ralphm

    ok, no worries

  95. MattJ

    I know I didn't do the minutes, but I think a dangling action item was actually formalizing the team

  96. ralphm


  97. MattJ

    I didn't ping Alex again, that was another one

  98. ralphm


  99. Ge0rG

    I might be able to assist with GDPR in the second half of July or later

  100. ralphm

    Thanks, Ge0rG.

  101. ralphm

    3. AOB

  102. MattJ

    Thanks Ge0rG, same may apply to me

  103. nyco


  104. ralphm

    As we are nearing summer holidays, one thing that popped up is we need to start preparing council and board elections after. Just to keep in the back of our heads.

  105. 404.city

    MattJ, ralphm Thanks

  106. nyco

    or maybe "online shop" or "goodies"?

  107. ralphm

    nyco: I don't recall what we discussed on this last time, to be honest.

  108. nyco

    I proposed it as an agenda item

  109. nyco


  110. ralphm

    Oh, I missed it

  111. ralphm


  112. nyco

    no worries

  113. Ge0rG

    somebody should volunteer to evaluate some shop platforms and obtain Board permission to start a shop?

  114. Ge0rG

    Then also determine what to do with the money and how to transfer it into XSF accounts?

  115. nyco

    we are exploring alternatives now

  116. Guus

    Ge0rG: nyco already did / is.

  117. nyco

    here is a subset of the alternatives to cafepress that I have found: https://www.zazzle.com/ https://society6.com/ https://www.vistaprint.com/

  118. ralphm

    And we probably also want to have an ok on designs going up there

  119. nyco

    some more are dedicated to T-shirts (and a few more clothes) some others are made for authors, musicians, and filmmakers.

  120. nyco

    to me, this seems like the most readable: https://www.zazzle.com/sell/designers they say: Base Price + Your Royalty Percentage = Retail Price so the pricing+royalties seem clear to me that cafepress

  121. nyco

    what do you think? does this raise questions and doubts?

  122. ralphm

    I'd prefer we can control what items get logos on them. I seem to remember that with cafepress they'd be able to throw it on anything?

  123. Guus

    nyco: who owns copyright of the designs?

  124. ralphm

    I'd do this similarly to XEPs, t.b.h.

  125. nyco

    ralphm I don't remember that guus us?

  126. MattJ

    Update XEP-0001 to include coffee mugs?

  127. Guus

    nyco, yes I remember that we discussed that regarding cafepress. There at least was uncertainty. (I wouldn't mind much, by the way)

  128. ralphm

    MattJ: well, at least assign rights to the XSF, like in our IPR policy for XEPs (https://xmpp.org/about/xsf/ipr-policy).

  129. 404.city

    I like the scheme of donations for TOR https://donate.torproject.org/pdr You donate, gifts are given to you

  130. nyco

    all right there seems to be too many interrogations, plus the payment, the bank, etc. I propose we forget it

  131. Guus

    ralphm: I'd like to make sure that the shop we end up choosing requires us to do something similar, and assign rights over to them.

  132. ralphm

    404.city: this is about selling items. We also have a sponsorship track, and accept donations.

  133. ralphm

    Guus: does or doesn't?

  134. ralphm

    Guus: I don't think they ask for copyright assignment, but rather certain licenses to use (for printing)

  135. Guus

    ralphm: I do not want the shop to own the rights to our designs. I don't have a strong opinion if the XSF or the original designer should have those rights.

  136. Guus

    ralphm, that would be fine by me.

  137. ralphm

    Well, having the XSF have rights makes things less complicated later on.

  138. Guus

    ralphm: probably true.

  139. Guus

    but we can probably sort that out after we start a quick proof of concept?

  140. MattJ

    Yeah, I don't see any red flags with Zazzle

  141. ralphm


  142. MattJ

    I'm wondering it it's more expensive (takes a larger cut than Cafepress)

  143. nyco

    that was just the pricing schema

  144. nyco

    it's 16:00

  145. ralphm

    RIght. Let's have a detailed look and come back on this next time.

  146. ralphm

    Curious about shipping rates, too.

  147. ralphm

    4. Date of Next

  148. ralphm


  149. ralphm

    5. Close

  150. ralphm

    Thanks all!

  151. ralphm bangs gavel

  152. MattJ


  153. nyco

    +1 thx all

  154. ralphm set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  155. Ge0rG

    404.city: now you can bring up your PR. Maybe Guus or jonasw can just merge it.

  156. Ge0rG

    Albeit I fear that adding more and more servers will lead that list to become very long.

  157. Ge0rG

    I'd love to have a central, well-maintained list of public servers with a high lever feature overview. But keeping that is real workโ„ข

  158. Ge0rG

    And we have already https://conversations.im/compliance/

  159. MattJ

    Ge0rG, it's been done (and failed) many times

  160. Guus

    I'm unfamiliar with 404.city, and the github user that made the request is unknown to me. That, plus a suspicion that I at one time saw a lot of abuse from that domain makes me wonder if we should add that to our list.

  161. Ge0rG

    MattJ: yes, but it was great to just pull the XML from xmpp.net into my client's auto-completion dropdown values table

  162. 404.city

    Ge0rG, 404.city is one of the largest servers. + 10 000 user for one year.

  163. jonasw

    MattJ, can you give a quick OK for https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/674/files ?

  164. daniel

    404.city, concurrent?

  165. Ge0rG

    how many of them are spam bots? ๐Ÿ˜

  166. jonasw

    MattJ, nevermind

  167. jonasw

    Kevin is co-author and ACKed this on-list already

  168. daniel

    the website says 705 concurrent

  169. 404.city

    +700 online users

  170. Ge0rG

    yax.im has 1066 clients connected right now.

  171. Ge0rG

    404.city: we can't simply add all servers with 500+ online users to that list.

  172. Ge0rG

    OTOH, we don't have very good criteria for which ones to add.

  173. Zash

    Something something neutrality

  174. 404.city

    I am engaged in the promotion of XMPP by providing high-end services.

  175. 404.city

    Some servers in this list do not even allow you to register, and the quality of the servers themselves is poor.

  176. Ge0rG

    Yes, the current list sucks.

  177. Guus

    criteria for that list on that page are focussed around how easy it is for a new user to sign up

  178. 404.city

    Ge0rG, http://jabberworld.info/%D0%A1%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%8E%D1%89%D0%B8%D1%85_%D0%BF%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BD%D1%8B%D1%85_%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2_Jabber

  179. Guus

    it's the 'getting started' page after all

  180. Ge0rG

    Guus: then we should remove all servers without IBR from that list

  181. Guus

    Ge0rG: all servers on the list had a web-based sign-up form at the time they were added to the list.

  182. 404.city

    servers number of people more than 500 on the fingers to count.

  183. Ge0rG

    Guus: yax.im never did

  184. 404.city


  185. Guus

    Ge0rG: my original list, that is ๐Ÿ™‚

  186. Guus

    I'm fine with having IBR too, by the way

  187. Ge0rG

    Guus: I wasn't aware that a web form is a prerequisite ;)

  188. Guus

    as long as it's easy for a novice user to register somehow

  189. Guus

    I never said it's a prerequisite. ๐Ÿ™‚

  190. Ge0rG

    Guus: it sounded like it.

  191. Ge0rG

    Guus: anyway, we need some objective criteria for that list.

  192. Ge0rG

    I agree with 404.city in that regard.

  193. Guus

    I said the prerequisite was that the link should offer clear instructions on how to sign up. Which is totally objective as I'll be the judge of what everyone is required to find clear instructions.

  194. Guus


  195. Guus

    Ge0rG: I'm a big fan of avoiding loooong discussions on what objective criteria should be.

  196. Guus

    if someone that I know wants to vouch for that server, I'm happy enough.

  197. 404.city

    I suggest simply adding 404.city. If you want then you can delete. The server does not exist for long, but the increment is significant. I'm trying to promote XMPP, you could help me in this

  198. Guus

    404.city: I am grateful for you promoting XMPP - but my issue remain: I don't know who you are, I have no experience with your server, and I know no-one that does.

  199. 404.city

    Guus, Can I help somehow in this matter?

  200. Ge0rG

    404.city: you could also ping daniel to add your server to https://status.conversations.im/

  201. daniel


  202. Guus

    404.city: it wouldn't hurt for you to be fully anonymous - but again, I'm primarily looking for other people to tell me that they've used your server, and are happy with it.

  203. edhelas

    daniel that's a nice tool :)

  204. Guus

    404.city: in the mean time, I'm getting private messages to the contrary, by the way. It's suggested that you've been experiencing load-related issues. Is that true? If so, it does not seem smart to invite more people to your server.

  205. edhelas

    movim.eu added to the list :)

  206. 404.city

    Guus, No, I have no problems.

  207. 404.city

    Guus, The current state of the server can withstand 10,000 people online

  208. Guus


  209. 404.city

    The only problem is that nobody knows about the 404.city. He does not exist for 15 years, as Jabber.ru (7000 user oline) and XMPP.org (17000 user online). Other server the list Jwchat ~900user online. Do not forget that statistics can be shown in different ways. If I show all people per day, it will be more than 404.city= ~1500 people.If I show all the devices connected, then it will be even more. 700 people is a user without cheating.

  210. edhelas

    404.city you have a typo on your homepage

  211. edhelas

    " Convesations Legacy", for all the buttons

  212. daniel

    404.city: there are plenty of smaller / new servers that found their audience

  213. daniel

    Without being listed on xmpp.org

  214. daniel

    Just be patient

  215. daniel

    Also slow and steady growth is better for everyone

  216. Ge0rG

    you can promote your server by other means, to get more people on board :)

  217. Ge0rG

    we are trying to spread the load anyway. It's much worse to have 10 servers with 100k users each than 1000 servers with 1000 users each.

  218. Ge0rG

    because if one server dies, the impact is much bigger

  219. edhelas

    404.city ensure that the users that you have are also valid :) it's easy to claim thousands of active users and have plenty of bots and spammers in them

  220. 404.city

    404 uses captcha for register

  221. edhelas

    I'm not sure if it's enough :)

  222. 404.city

    Ge0rG, Why do not you promote your server yax.im in a different way?

  223. Ge0rG

    404.city: yax.im is there to make onboarding for users of yaxim easier.

  224. Ge0rG

    404.city: it's preselected in yaxim. I don't see an urgent need to become the largest XMPP server ever.

  225. 404.city

    edhelas, In addition to captcha, there is a limit on sending subscriptions.

  226. Guus

    the point of that list is not to promote a server. The point of that list is to make it easier for new users to get started with XMPP.

  227. 404.city

    Guus, The server 404.city is made to simplify this task as much as possible

  228. Ge0rG

    captchas make that harder ;)

  229. 404.city

    Ge0rG, Spam is bad.

  230. Ge0rG

    I know that first-hand.

  231. 404.city

    Ge0rG, To me, too, used to come spam from your server

  232. Ge0rG

    404.city: I'm sure you immediately reported it ;)

  233. 404.city

    Ge0rG, No, I did not report it otherwise than in the conference of operators

  234. Ge0rG

    I'm monitoring the operators@ MUC, most of the time.

  235. Ge0rG

    But it's better to report directly. I'm taking those things seriously

  236. 404.city

    edhelas, Thanks, I corrected the typo

  237. edhelas