One thought about XEP-0177: Jingle Raw UDP Transport Method...
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Yagiza
Section 4.4 says, that upon sending/receiving session-accept action, entity should start immediately send media.
Yagiza
So, application level XEP's will start doing job before they even sure the connection succeed. Is it a good idea?
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Yagiza
Maybe it's better for transport XEP start sending something meaningless, independent from application level XEP, like 1 datagram of '\0' byte 10 times per second.
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Yagiza
And once it receives a datagram, stop sending it and notify application, that connection succeed, to let it send real media.
flow
How do you know for sure that a single null byte is meaningless?
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flow
And to answer your first question: I don't see a problem doing what the XEP demands, but maybe I miss something?
jonasw
Yagiza, it doesn’t matter
jonasw
Yagiza, UDP is lossy anyways, and the media layer needs to be able to cope with loss
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Yagiza
flow, I'm not sure. But at least it consumes less traffic and we may be sure that application won't start sending anything useful before connection succeed. And it will make transport level XEP really independent from application level XEPs.
flow
jonasw, I think Yagiza possibly had error cases like "could not connect to remote host" in mind
flow
But even those could be dedected after sending the data over the UDP stream
jonasw
flow, yupp, exactly
jonasw
and if everything is fine, it speeds up sending of media
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flow
Yagiza, I still don't see the problem
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flow
Yagiza, also UDP is stateless, there is no connection succeeded in TCP style
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jonasw
and inventing your own handshake on top of UDP is...meh
flow
your network stack will eventually notify you if it became aware that the UDP packets don't arrive at the destination
flow
but they could also simply go down into a black hole
Yagiza
Yes. Receiving data is the sign, that connection succeed. So, I just want to separate application level XEP from transport level.
Zash
wouldn't it only notice that if they get bounced?
Yagiza
Transport establishes connection and application utilizes it.
Zash
UDP is connection-less tho
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Yagiza
Zash, yes
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Yagiza
Zash, but transport level implies some kind of connection, and it doesn't matter what on lower level goes on.
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jonasw
Yagiza, no, it doesn’t
jonasw
UDP is transport level, UDP does not imply any type of connection
jonasw
if the application requires reliability of any sort, it needs to either use TCP or do something by itself on top of UDP
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Yagiza
jonasw, UDP is not a fully transport level. It's somewhat between transport and network level.
Ge0rG
ISO/OSI or IETF levels? 😁
Yagiza
Ge0rG, at least OSI (^_^)
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Dave Cridland
Gosh, I wish OSI levels would finally die.
MattJ
Didn't they? :)
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Dave Cridland
Sometime in the '80's, everywhere other than Isode, I thought.
SamWhited
And at all universities
Dave Cridland
True. The concept of layers is quite useful, but the notion of trying to peg UDP's "layer" as something other than "UDP" isn't helpful.
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Ge0rG
What about the concept of 0198 being the Session layer and 6120 the Presentation layer? Those who don't understand history are bound to repeat it?
Dave Cridland
6121 is the Application Layer? What's TLS?
Dave Cridland
I thought the Session layer included authentication, so I'm not sure 198 counts there. But I never paid much attention to it really.
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Ge0rG
I'm not saying it's a perfect match. Actually, it's a set of horrible hacks created to mimic those layers, rather imperfectly
Ge0rG
TLS doesn't fit into the OSI model at all. You can't have Lawful Interception on top of it.
Ge0rG
And I'd count 6121 into Presentation as well.
Dave Cridland
I think our layers are now 1*(Physical, IP, Transport) [TLS] Application [SASL / 1*XEP]
Dave Cridland
Hmmm. Maybe the optional TLS layer is in the low-level repeating stack (for VPNs).
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Ge0rG
I'm not sure about your notation.
Dave Cridland
Ge0rG, ABNF just 'cos.
Ge0rG
Or maybe it's just too late to do meaningful work today.
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lovetox
In Gajim we have issues with Cisco Servers, it seems Gajim gets often disconnected with resource conflict error
lovetox
after that Gajim changes resource, but gets disconnected soon again
lovetox
does anyone know whats up with this?
lovetox
Is there a Cisco support channel for the xmpp server stuff?
lovetox
has anyone connections to some devs that working on this thing?
Ge0rG
I can't imagine that. Unless you are a paying customer.
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lovetox
ok in theory what are reasons by the standard for resource conflict
lovetox
i know the rfc describes that its allowed to not let a resource connect 2 times
Ge0rG
when another client is logged in (or just logs in) with the same resource.
lovetox
then they have to issue that error
Ge0rG
typically, when a second client connects with that resource, one of them gets killed.
lovetox
ok defince second client
Ge0rG
sane servers kill the old one, because they assume that it's the same client, coming back from a network change
lovetox
if i disconnect because of wlan
lovetox
and reconnect without smacks
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lovetox
am i considerd a second client?
Ge0rG
the server can't know if it's the same client or not, except *maybe* based on the resource you want to bind
Ge0rG
some developers say the server should just assign you a new random resource and have the zombie stay online
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lovetox
ok so its definitly about the resource
lovetox
there is no other reason where this would be issued
Ge0rG
if it's a resource conflict, I'd assume that
Zash
Hand out new resource, ping the old, ???, profit!
Ge0rG
Is it https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html#streams-error-conditions-conflict
Zash
dwd said somesuch at some point iirc
lovetox
User says: "The dialog starts to appear within a minute to a few minutes after connection is established. "
Ge0rG
Zash: in theory I might agree, but in practice we haven't sorted out the MAM/Carbons mess and messages will get lost and/or bounced. Maybe with a significant delay.
lovetox
which makes no sense
lovetox
there is no second client involved
lovetox
why would it let me connect and issue that after a minute
Ge0rG
Great question.
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MattJ
lovetox, does Gajim still support the RFC 3921 session iq?
MattJ
Old ejabberds used to have a similar behaviour if you didn't use that
MattJ
Random shot in the dark
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lovetox
hm no thats not it, user just confirmed it was the same with gajim 0.16, so this was like this forever, just that gajim would automatically switch resource without user telling, so they might not noticed it
lovetox
so i might solve this again like that
lovetox
and just switch resource
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daniel
Zash: will your tombstoning in prosody support the alternate jid?
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lovetox
i think so daniel, the stanzas i saw included a alternate jid
Zash
daniel: yes, it saves the alternate jid from the destruction command and now includes it with the <gone> error
daniel
wait there is a gone error now?
daniel
i thought you wanted to do unavailable with destroy
daniel
Zash, can you give me an example of the stanza you want to implement?
Zash
Hm?
Zash
daniel: I changed it to a normal error reply
MattJ
Clients didn't like the unavailable, and flow pointed out on the list that error made more sense (which I agree with)
daniel
can you give me an example of that presence?
Zash
and jonasw
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Zash
<presence from='room@muc.host/nick' type='error' id='1'><error type='cancel'><gone xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas'>xmpp:long-long-time-ago@far-far-away.galaxy.invalid?join</gone><text xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas'>Nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure!</text></error></presence>
Zash
daniel: that ^ in reply to a join stanza
daniel
ok. thanks
Zash
MattJ: Our error reply code doesn't make it easy to attach text in <gone> :/
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MattJ
lovetox, Holger: looks like that change was not publicly discussed as far as I can see
MattJ
So we'll probably never know
Zash
*THE* change
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Holger
Seems it was applied by Ian Paterson who's long gone I guess ...
lovetox
then its time we bring it back :)
Holger
At least he probably won't stop you from doing that :-)
MattJ
Yeah, pretty sure he just disappeared
MattJ
He was quite active and authored a number of XEPs
Zash
Context?
MattJ
Oh!
MattJ
Wrong MUC
MattJ
jdev@
daniel
We really need more mucs
Zash
MORE
MattJ
With the same 20 people in all of them :)
Holger
Hah, I didn't notice either.
ta
plus the double amount of popcron chewing spectators
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Zash
Until one day, The Great Merge
MattJ
Yeah. One big discussion venue. Twitter?
Zash
With hash tags instead of rooms
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Ge0rG
Tags are the new groups. Even multi groups
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flow
does "THE change" have a commit id?
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MattJ
flow, no, I don't think anything from the CVS days is in git
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flow
what a pity
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Ge0rG
Is there somewhere a backup of the CVS? We could re-root the whole history onto reposurgeon
Zash
How many VCSes have we gone through?
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Dave Cridland
Gosh. Zoofy. There's a blast from the past - he was on the first Council I got "elected" to. (uncontested of course).