XSF Discussion - 2018-07-16

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  399. jonasw somebody with IETF strings may want to give them a hint that https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rescorla-tls-esni-00#section-4 may be not-cool for things not HTTPS
  400. flow jonasw, why not just drop a mail to draft-rescorla-tls-esni@ietf.org, possibly cc'ing standards@?
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  404. jonasw I didn’t even know that address
  405. jonasw do I need to subscribe somewhere before posting?
  406. flow jonasw, no
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  421. Ge0rG Jul 16 12:34:11 c2s56231cdf2b10 debug Received[c2s_unbound]: <inactive xmlns='urn:xmpp:csi:0'> Jul 16 12:34:11 c2s56231cdf2b10 debug mod_csi_battery_saver(9380): Client is inactive the first time, initializing module for this session Jul 16 12:34:11 c2s56231cdf2b10 debug Received[c2s_unbound]: <resume h='128' previd='2121b279-b0c2-47eb-9537-2bbdeb3e2c21' xmlns='urn:xmpp:sm:3'>
  422. Ge0rG this is what you get for making CSI a stream setting and not a session setting. Sigh.
  423. daniel And that's how you get ants
  424. MattJ Ge0rG, that's not yaxim, is it?
  425. Ge0rG MattJ: no. yaxim is on sm:2
  426. MattJ Ah yes
  427. Ge0rG We had a heated discussion about what happens with CSI state on 0198 resume. Nobody thought about what happens if you do CSI *before* resume
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  430. Zash Madness
  431. Ge0rG Where's my "told you so" stamp, again?
  432. MattJ I guess we should just all do what Ge0rG says from now on
  433. jonasw enabling CSI before bind should just be forbidden.
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  438. Ge0rG jonasw: why?
  439. Ge0rG jonasw: on what grounds?
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  442. jonasw wait, I got pre-bind and pre-auth confused.
  443. Ge0rG You could even CSI-inactive pre-auth.
  444. Ge0rG But then the stream gets restarted, so meh.
  445. jonasw csi-inactive pre-auth should be forbidden because the server might need to allocate resources for that.
  446. jonasw (and it’s not essential to secure the authentication channel)
  447. Ge0rG jonasw: then you can tell us the place where this should be forbidden?
  448. Ge0rG okay, it's rather obvious with pre-auth, but how do you handle pre-bind / pre-resume
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  450. Holger > Clients wishing to immediately go to the inactive state should do so after stream resumption. ... is not enough?
  451. Ge0rG Holger: that's not even a SHOULD
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  453. Ge0rG Holger: and above server log shows that client authors don't listen
  454. Holger If the CSI state was per-session, would that help with such client authors?
  455. Holger They set CSI-active before resume and after resume the state is suddently inactive?
  456. Holger Anyway "stream resumption does not affect the current CSI state" sounds a bit like the server shouldn't mess with pre-resume CSI. The second half of the sentence, "which always defaults to 'active' for new and resumed streams" sounds like it should, though :-)
  457. MattJ :/
  458. Holger Whatever. I'd just add a MUST to that sentence (clients MUST "do so after stream resumption"), problem solved. This is not how I'd do it if we started from scratch, but I wouldn't mess with the rules again without strong reasoning.
  459. Kev FWIW, there's no distinction on caps, so should and SHOULD are equivalent.
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  461. Ge0rG Kev: can you translate that into plain English please?
  462. Kev Holger pasted a sentence containing a should, and you said it wasn't a SHOULD. I was pointing out that should and SHOULD are the same word.
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  464. Kev 2119 doesn't say that words need to be in caps.
  465. Holger > These words are often capitalized.
  466. Holger Hehe.
  467. Ge0rG but it's generally expected
  468. Holger It doesn't even say they SHOULD be capitalized.
  469. Ge0rG I was actually tryign to parse "caps" as "entity capabilities", leading to confusion
  470. Holger Ge0rG: If you get a "told you so" stamp I want a t-shirt bitching about those SHOULDs everywhere.
  471. Holger You SHOULD NOT use SHOULD!
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  473. Ge0rG "You MAY use 'SHOULD' but it is NOT RECOMMENDED to rely on its implementation."
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  526. pep. https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-July/035247.html I don't really like to have to rewrite a new XEP when there is already one existing. I think that adds to the confusion of "What XEPs do I need to implement?".
  527. Kev There's already a XEP for sending 'file uploading' notifications?
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  529. jonasw pep., if you can add a feature to a XEP, you can also make a new XEP which only contains that new feature
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  531. jonasw there’s no problem with a XEP-XXXX which builds on chat states and specifies a new set of elements which may be used in combination with e.g. <composing/> to show that an upload is in progress
  532. Ge0rG It's not forbidden to add a sub-element to <composing/>, outlining that it's actually uploading. That would be backward-compatible
  533. Ge0rG lnj: ^
  534. pep. jonasw, yeah but why is that not the recommended way
  535. jonasw pep., that is what matt said
  536. pep. Ah wait I got it wrong
  537. pep. Why is that the recommended way
  538. jonasw he surely did *not* intend to say that XEP-0085 should be copied entirel
  539. jonasw pep., why not?
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  545. Ge0rG Ah, it looks like Andrew did a similar thing there.
  546. pep. jonasw, hmm, ok I read that as copy 0085 and include whatever you need in it.
  547. jonasw Andrew Nenakhov, hey, mind writing down your extension?
  548. jonasw pep., no, create a new thing which only contains the new features and which builds on top of 0085
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  550. jonasw Andrew Nenakhov, also, any reason why you didn’t opt for a child of <composing/> or next to composing instead of an attribute?
  551. Kev Namespaced attributes aren't the best idea in XMPP.
  552. jonasw nobody said "namespaced"
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  555. Kev Shoving attributes into someone else's namespace is also not great.
  556. Ge0rG somebody said "hack"
  557. pep. Kev, ooi why it's not the best idea?
  558. jonasw Kev, good thing that attributes aren’t even associated with a namespace by default \o/
  559. pep. is it*
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  561. pep. Because it's not widely used, because it's not advertised in the RFC?
  562. Kev jonasw: You know what I mean. Attributes on an element in someone else's namespace.
  563. jonasw Kev, yeah.
  564. Kev pep.: Because it's not likely to work.
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  566. pep. Kev, because lack of deployment then, right?
  567. jonasw pep., namespaced attributes require namespace prefixes, and implementations historically had ..... issues with that.
  568. Kev pep.: Yeah.
  569. jonasw which I don’t get.
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  571. Kev jonasw: We don't use namespaced attributes in XMPP, therefore XMPP XML implementations don't typically support them, therefore we can't use them.
  572. Kev Meet circle.
  573. pep. Ok, I don't think lack of deployment is really an argument. I mean things change. People should follow, otherwise things break, and that's expected
  574. jonasw pep., issue is, if people are using XML parsers which don’t support namespacing at all (which seems to happen, because I have no idea why) and which rely on default xmlns and dirty hacks... this will be bad
  575. jonasw although technically such implementatinos should not have issues with routing such content at least
  576. pep. Well then they should fix their parser, problem solved.
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  578. jonasw one does not simply make an XML parser namespace-aware.
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  580. pep. ;)
  581. pep. jonasw, this issue is not specific to XML parsers.
  582. pep. YouknowwhatImean
  583. jonasw not really. the xml parser is a core component. "fixing" it to support namespaces usually means: - exchange the entire XML parser and/or - re-write the entire interface between XML parser and your stuff on top of it.
  584. pep. Let me rephrase: the issue of people not updating/projects not staying up-to-date is not specific to XML parsers
  585. jonasw yes
  586. jonasw I wish we could use proper namespacing in all of XMPP.
  587. jonasw we could save quite a few bytes with that.
  588. Kev We can in everywhere except attributes, I think.
  589. jonasw e.g. by declaring the stream management prefix on the stream level
  590. Kev Ah, right, you want to declare prefixes.
  591. Kev I take it back :)
  592. jonasw yes, proper namespacing I said :)
  593. Kev Well, it's a bit different.
  594. Kev Namespaced attributes we can't use because we can't use a representation that will be understood widely.
  595. Kev Everything else we can represent, you just would like to use a different representation. IIRC.
  596. Kev *IIUC
  597. Kev But either way, yes. Prefixes are likely to end badly.
  598. Zash Are namespaces actually a problem anymore? I've never noticed any problems
  599. pep. I guess it's an issue of making widely used implementations support them, and then in a few years we'll be able to start thinking about using them
  600. pep. When stable-releases have updated their crap
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  602. lnj jonasw: So about the uploading notifications your suggestion is to just create a new XEP?
  603. pep. lnj, yes, wiht 0085 as dependency
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  605. lnj OK, thanks
  606. Kev Zash: Not namespaces in general, no, they're required everywhere. But prefix definitions are, and therefore namespaced attributes.
  607. MattJ Just send a new element alongside <composing/>, job done
  608. Kev MattJ: Alongside? I'd inside personally, although maybe it doesn't matter.
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  610. pep. yeah I'd make it inside as well, otherwise you'd have to deal with a lot more cases
  611. MattJ Kev, you may not have faith in things handling namespaced attributes, I don't have faith in them handling unexpected elements properly either
  612. MattJ Nested ones, that is
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  614. Kev That's kinda one of the core expectations of XMPP isn't it? That you can shove new (namespaced) elements more or less anywhere.
  615. MattJ There are a number of places we have avoided doing this in the past
  616. Ge0rG we also tried to put the <forwarded> and <message> alongside each other in Carbons. That didn't went well.
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  634. flow I doubt that using namespaced attributes in XMPP is such a big problem as ppl here believe. I never heard of an impl that had issues, which of course, doesn't mean that such a thing does not exists. But then again, most XML parser probably support namespaced attributes out of the box.
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  639. flow Hmm does xep85 schema try to actively forbid extension elements within? And yes I know that schemas are only considered informative, but still. I think if we extend xep85's extension elements would be a bigger problem than namespaced attributes.
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  645. MattJ flow, I once tried to pull the 'xmpp-stanzas' namespace up into a declaration on the <error> element, instead of duplicating it on each child
  646. MattJ Had to revert because clients didn't like it
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  648. MattJ And that's a basic namespace thing
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  650. jonasw MattJ, :(
  651. jonasw aioxmpp would love that
  652. Zash Which cliens?
  653. jonasw well, aioxmpp would deal with it, but its lead developer would love it.
  654. MattJ Zash, I forget, it was a long time ago and although I put a COMPAT I didn't list which
  655. jonasw MattJ, when I started with aioxmpp, ejabberd failed to process such stuff, too
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  658. Kev I believe that Swift would cope fine with prefixes for element namespaces, but likely get confused with namespaced attributes.
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  661. jonasw why?
  662. jonasw I fail to find the difference
  663. Kev Because for one it's just coming out of the XML parser, and XMPP uses namespaced elements so that's in the abstraction. XMPP doesn't use namespaced attributes, so it's not in the abstraction.
  664. jonasw mmkay
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  666. Kev At least, ISTR it's not.
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  668. Kev " It is conventional in the XMPP community for implementations to not generate namespace prefixes for elements that are qualified by extended namespaces" BTW. Non-normative, but at least a record that it's not done.
  669. Kev And with that, I shall vanish for the night.
  670. jonasw have a good one
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