XSF Discussion - 2018-07-17

  1. jonasw

    where do clients get information like "inactive for N days" from?

  2. jonasw

    is that XEP-0256?

  3. Ge0rG

    I think daniel was consulting various resources.

  4. jonasw

    a contact of mine claims I have been inactive for three days

  5. jonasw

    it’s pidgin.

  6. jonasw

    of course.

  7. jonasw

    <query xmlns='jabber:iq:last' seconds='336148'/>

  8. jonasw

    no idea why

  9. jonasw

    I even reconnected in the meantime

  10. lnj

    https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-July/035250.html jonasw, When using a different element for the uploading status, there's one concern I have: it's not backwards-compatible with old clients.

  11. jonasw

    lnj, why not?

  12. jonasw

    old clients will simply ignore it

  13. jonasw

    and I don’t think there’s a way to make old clients understand that you’re uploading without adding a new element...

  14. lnj

    Old clients would display at least "composing"

  15. jonasw

    yes; you can achieve that by sending <uploading/> together with <composing/>.

  16. jonasw

    like I suggested in the example

  17. lnj

    ups ..

  18. lnj

    haven't seen that

  19. lnj

    Then it's definitely the better alternative

  20. jonasw

    yeah, it allows to use those states independently of the current XEP-0085 state

  21. jonasw

    which is nice

  22. jonasw

    (it can even be used without XEP-0085 altogether)

  23. daniel

    But will it be caught be csi? 🤔

  24. jonasw

    beware though, I expect a whole lot of discussion when you propose this, since recently people discussed whether moving that type of stuff into (directed) presence isn’t more sensible ....

  25. Ge0rG

    CSI and MAM need to be made aware of those new changes.

  26. Ge0rG

    Currently, prosody's MAM will remove known-irrelevant elements from the message and check for emptiness in the end.

  27. Ge0rG

    known-irrelevant is CSN

  28. jonasw

    if only we had namespaced attributes

  29. daniel

    Ge0rG: right. So that will land in mam and not be caught by csi

  30. jonasw

    one could tack csi:require-push="true" on message-child-level elements or something

  31. lnj

    Wouldn't it make sense to add a attribute (subelement) to indicate a message is not important and should be catched by CSI on the server

  32. daniel

    Also beware the jingle circlejerk

  33. Ge0rG

    lnj: IM 2.0 will solve all our problems.

  34. lnj

    What's IM 2.0?

  35. jonasw

    lnj, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0409.html

  36. Ge0rG

    There is still https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/im-ng.html

  37. lnj

    Isn't XEP-0409 only a replacement for carbons?

  38. jonasw

    Ge0rG, eh.... that has been accepted as XEP-0409

  39. jonasw

    lnj, it also affects MAM

  40. lnj

    Ah ok

  41. Ge0rG

    it doesn't even *replace* carbons ;)

  42. jonasw

    Ge0rG, does it not?

  43. jonasw

    > A client activating IM-NG MUST NOT also activate Carbons.

  44. jonasw

    sounds very replacy to me

  45. Ge0rG


  46. Ge0rG

    Ignore everything I say.

  47. lnj

    Would you accept Media Sharing Notifications (*MSN*) as XEP name? ;D

  48. jonasw

    that sounds about right

  49. Ge0rG

    that doesn't sound bad

  50. lnj

    The abbrieviation is also good ...

  51. jonasw


  52. jonasw

    I like it

  53. Ge0rG

    I object.

  54. jonasw

    lnj, if you need any editorial help, let me know.

  55. Ge0rG

    MSN is already defined as multi-session-nicks in MUCs

  56. Ge0rG

    -1 on formal grounds.

  57. jonasw

    Ge0rG, so? that makes it a perfect fit.

  58. jonasw

    (seriously though, I missed that and I think another name would be good)

  59. Ge0rG

    jonasw: it's bad enough that we are abusing acronyms from pop culture and from older IM systems. We can't start abusing our own acronyms.

  60. Ge0rG

    Media Upload Notifications maybe?

  61. jonasw

    MUN, wfm

  62. jonasw

    MTN would be good to (Transfer)

  63. lnj

    jonasw: Currently everything's fine. My biggest problem are the quotes from plays of Shakespear.

  64. lnj


  65. lnj

    I'd take MTN

  66. Ge0rG

    but it's not "transfer", it's "upload". If it were transfer, the receiver would be able to count bytes themselves.

  67. Ge0rG

    Also, the HTTP library I'm using is incapable of providing a sane progress report.

  68. lnj

    But actually there should also be notifications for the recording of audio/video, so Transfer and Upload both don't fit completely

  69. jonasw

    lnj, hm, right

  70. Ge0rG

    Call it "File Sharing Notification" FSN?

  71. lnj

    That would be an option

  72. Ge0rG

    "File" is old-school, but it nicely fits with CSN

  73. jonasw

    that misses the recording stuff too

  74. Ge0rG

    actually I'd like it to be `?SN`

  75. Dave Cridland

    It's OK. Names don't have to make perfect sense, just enough that you can guess the scope and where to find the specification.

  76. jonasw

    Ge0rG, "Stuff Sharing Notification"

  77. Ge0rG

    jonasw: Social Security Number. Bad thing.

  78. jonasw


  79. Dave Cridland

    But yeah, it seems likely that you'd use these as a "Wait one, I'm looking for the file on disk" as well as a "Pics or it didn't happen, eh? I'll show you."

  80. jonasw

    "hey, can you start sending SSNs to me, please?"

  81. Ge0rG


  82. Dave Cridland

    Ge0rG, I think LOL has been taken.

  83. Ge0rG

    Dave Cridland: even in the context of XMPP.

  84. lnj

    FSN doesn't really miss the part of recording since I'd count the file creation to the process of "sharing"

  85. jonasw

    whatever works

  86. Ge0rG

    I wish nobody had invented the MSN name, which is technically correct but misleading anyway.

  87. Dave Cridland

    lnj, And also, as I say, it doesn't matter very much. Any name is better than no name.

  88. lnj

    Ok :D

  89. jonasw

    .oO(d***pic sharing notification) (probably only funny for those in conversations@)

  90. Ge0rG

    "Data Sharing Notification" would be a great fit for your idea, jonasw

  91. Ge0rG

    "BSN". Bike-Shedding Notification.

  92. jonasw

    Blob Sharing Notification

  93. Dave Cridland

    NCSN - Non Chat State Notification?

  94. jonasw


  95. Kev


  96. Kev


  97. Kev

    Not The MSN Initialism.

  98. Dave Cridland

    WCTOABA - We Couldn't Think Of A Better Acronym

  99. Ge0rG

    Dave Cridland: I'd like to have that for CSI instead.

  100. Dave Cridland

    But anyway, Dickpic Sharing Notification works fine for me.

  101. Dave Cridland

    Especially if its extensible enough to actually give me fair warning.

  102. jonasw


  103. Kev

    How extensible does it need to be?

  104. Dave Cridland

    Kev, Depends on how warm it is, surely?

  105. Ge0rG

    Now before anybody complains. I inherited the name "yet another xmpp instant messenger" together with the rotten code base.

  106. jonasw

    <uploading type='image' rating='adult' progress='half-up'/>?

  107. Seve/SouL

    Hah, these guys...!

  108. Ge0rG

    jonasw: we could wrap those into spoilers for adult content.

  109. jonasw

    Ge0rG, smart

  110. lnj

    jonasw, Now I probably also need a upload-cancelled status since the uploading status is independant of the chat states. (I can't only use <paused/>)

  111. jonasw

    lnj, indeed