-
vanitasvitae
lnj: is there a rendered version of your ProtoXEP for file sharing notifications available somewhere?
-
Ge0rG
vanitasvitae: I think it was just a rough idea so far
-
vanitasvitae
Ge0rG, I found https://git.kaidan.im/snippets/3 and the author wrote in a mail, that he submitted the proposal to the editor, even though I cannot find an openend PR in xsf/xeps
-
Zash
You can submit something to the editor without github
-
vanitasvitae
Zash, ah 😀
-
jonasw
vanitasvitae, it was submitted via email
-
jonasw
will merge tomorrow pending IPR Policy agreement.
-
vanitasvitae
great 🙂
-
jonasw
vanitasvitae, inofficial render: https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/xeps/fsn.html
-
vanitasvitae
jonasw, thanks 🙂
-
404.city
Edit rejected? https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/454
-
404.city
I suggest to remove superfluous servers and to construct strict criteria in the given list
-
404.city
Or remove all servers. It is unfair that XMPP loses a server of poor quality, and the rest throws out
-
404.city
This hurts the development of xmpp
-
404.city
In most of these servers, there is no registration via the xmpp client. In one of them there is no registration on the site. XEP support on all these servers is lousy.
-
404.city
You kill hmpp by consulting these servers. I propose to remove everything and leave a link to the list of servers.✎ -
404.city
We kill XMPP by consulting these servers. I propose to remove everything and leave a link to the list of servers.✎ ✏ -
404.city
We kill XMPP by recommending these servers. I propose to remove everything and leave a link to the list of servers. ✏
-
moparisthebest
it does seem insane to have a partial list of servers with no criteria to remove or add them
-
moparisthebest
ha so it links jabber.at to https://jabber.at/account/register/ which says "Registration deactivated Registration is currently deactivated. Please see the start page if there is any more information."
-
moparisthebest
should that stay on there? does that help people get started with XMPP does it?
-
moparisthebest
looks like registration has been closed since Jan 6th 2018
-
404.city
xmpp.jp - no support omemo http upload xmpp client registrations. Jabber.ru no support xmpp client registrations, http upload. jwchat.org - small server 900 user vs 740 - 404.city. jabber.at - no support all regisracion! cooooooll yaxim.org - small server 1200 user online , support web-regisrations!
-
moparisthebest
it should probably just not recommend servers at all, certainly that's less harmful than linking a bunch of dead ones?
-
404.city
moparisthebest, I agree. It's not fair that people think that my server is bad, because it's no recommending on xmpp.org!
-
moparisthebest
I'm not saying your server is good or bad actually
-
moparisthebest
most servers aren't listed on xmpp.org, and obviously some that are are worthless because registration has been closed for half a year
-
moparisthebest
we should:
-
moparisthebest
1. have a criteria to add/remove servers
-
moparisthebest
2. not list any servers
-
moparisthebest
pick one
-
404.city
moparisthebest, I'm talking about the fact that there is no declarative criterion for selecting this list, so it must be deleted. My server will be more visited than two servers from this list, in half a year.
-
pep.
404.city, help define the criteria
-
Ge0rG
- server should have a well-known admin 😁
-
pep.
hah
-
moparisthebest
Ge0rG, what a stupid criteria...
-
moparisthebest
decentralized messaging!
-
moparisthebest
as long as a tiny group of XSF members knows you personally!
-
404.city
pep., I believe that there should not be any limited list. Free choice.
-
pep.
404.city, might as well not put any list on that page then
-
pep.
I don't see how we can fit an unlimited list
-
Ge0rG
The list on the "getting started" page can't and shouldn't be the authoritative list of all public servers.
-
moparisthebest
should it be a list of servers that don't support registration?
-
Ge0rG
It might be replaced by a link to such a list, but truth is that nobody has shown to be able to maintain it for long times. Also a list with thousands of entries doesn't make any sense
-
404.city
Ge0rG, You use this list for advertising. Your server is small.
-
Ge0rG
I'd probably go with a list of medium size servers with good uptime and IBR enabled.
-
404.city
Ge0rG, Your server should not be on this list.
-
pep.
404.city, we're not fighting for who's got the biggest
-
Zash
404.city: Yours should?
-
Ge0rG
404.city: most of the users on my server come from the yaxim client.
-
pep.
we're not fighting at all
-
Ge0rG
404.city: do you want to say that yaxim is just a way to advertise my server?
-
404.city
A good uptime means that there are no system updates. System updates require a reboot.
-
pep.
404.city, a good uptime doesn't mean no reboot at all
-
Ge0rG
Okay, let's fill the list with servers that have no uptime then.
-
pep.
It is a percentage, not a duration
-
moparisthebest
I think we can all agree "supports registration" should be *a* criteria, can someone remove jabber.at ?
-
pep.
I think that's up to the board to agree
-
Seve/SouL
What I would do is have an external site saying something like `Community list of servers` or `Unofficial list of servers` where you accept all kind of servers with a minimum of uptime and maybe IBR enabled (free of spammers/admins that care about the server) and you find a form with, Country, most common language of the server and then get a list of the ones available.
-
404.city
I think you need to leave only one link https://list.jabber.at/
-
pep.
Also users will certainly prefer servers closest to them, for latency
-
moparisthebest
does that matter in xmpp ? :/
-
pep.
latency?
-
moparisthebest
I don't think it does, it's not a first person shooter
-
pep.
I live with 300ms to my server, it does somewhat
-
Seve/SouL
404.city, I didn't know about that list, thank you.
-
404.city
pep yes
-
pep.
404.city, so this fact alone kind of dismisses the idea of having a list on that page
-
pep.
Or maybe we should have per continent list :/
-
Zash
Or maybe the XSF shouldn't do this at all
-
404.city
You need an honest list with all the servers and free choice.
-
pep.
Zash, I mostly agree with that
-
moparisthebest
yea I'm leaning that way Zash
-
pep.
JSF would do!
-
peter
;-)
-
pep.
Jabber Sans Frontières
-
moparisthebest
a list of people that were buddies with XSF members 5 years ago seems like the absolute worst thing to do
-
Zash
IIRC someone said these kinds of lists eventually just attract people trying to use it for marketing
-
Zash
Including "XEP support" lists
-
Seve/SouL
I think is good to have a list, but it is clear that not like we have it now.
-
moparisthebest
who is jwchat.org / Mathias Ertl ?
-
pep.
I think it is pretty clear we should kill the list on this page
-
Zash
Let other people make their own unofficial lists. Maybe we can have a list of lists.
-
moparisthebest
yea that would make more sense imho
-
404.city
pep., I support this idea, because people think that all the servers that are not on this list are bad.
-
Seve/SouL
First time I hear that, though.
-
moparisthebest
404.city, I'm not so sure that's true, I've never even seen that list
-
pep.
moparisthebest, I have seen it used multiple times in the past
-
daniel
Shit that history locks like I should grab some 🍿
-
pep.
daniel: I guess people are usually skewed towards conversations' list nowadays anyway ;p✎ -
pep.
daniel: I guess people are mostly skewed towards conversations' list nowadays anyway ;p ✏
-
daniel
Yeah that history was a bit more boring than I hoped
-
Zash
Prosodys list: 1. Run your own! ;)
-
daniel
I'm not really comfortable with being the list. I rather create the tools so other people can create lists
-
Zash
daniel: Too late
-
pep.
yeah it's a bit late now
-
daniel
But yeah I guess my list is more useful in some ways than the one on xmpp.org
-
Ge0rG
> Maybe we can have a list of lists. This is the opposite of the intention behind "getting started"
-
Ge0rG
Also the list of lists needs criteria on which to rate and compare the lists.
-
pep.
I'd prefer to having clients support IBR/PARS/whatever stuff and have users use that. Or have somebody invite them with the invite app thingy✎ -
pep.
I'd prefer to have clients support IBR/PARS/whatever stuff and have users use that. Or have somebody invite them with the invite app thingy ✏
-
Ge0rG
pep.: me too. But people landing on the "getting started" page might need some help.
-
Ge0rG
maybe each client should have its own recommended server, so the user ends up with whatever is the default value
-
Ge0rG
...and has to pay after 6 months.
-
pep.
:D
- pep. eyes around
-
pep.
Ge0rG, well tbh, that depends on the service.
-
daniel
> pep.: me too. But people landing on the "getting started" page might need some help. Is this is a relevant amount of people?
-
pep.
I'm paying for my own service
-
daniel
Is this a problem worth fixing
-
Ge0rG
daniel: ask iteam for web server stats?
-
daniel
I certainly didn't go to xmpp.org when I started using jabber
-
pep.
I don't even remember
-
daniel
That website is pretty crappy for end users anyway
-
daniel
I don't think it shows up on Google very high
-
Zash
The purpose of the XSF is to govern the standards. Does this include things directed at end-users?
-
daniel
People just hear about jabber somewhere and that place usually just sends them to a client
-
daniel
Or anywhere but not to xmpp.org
-
Ge0rG
because xmpp.org isn't even jabber.
-
daniel
Or people go to xmpp.org learn about how awesome it is being used to kill people and leave very confused
-
Ge0rG
Speaking of neutrality. My #2 google hit for "getting started with xmpp" is this: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Getting_Started > Welcome to the Getting Started Guide for the Tagarela Jabber Library
-
Ge0rG
And I haven't ever heard of tagarela.
-
Ge0rG
> This page was last modified on 29 August 2005, at 04:01.
-
Ge0rG
I think this is an accurate representation of our situation.
-
daniel
> Open Macromedia Director
-
daniel
Ok
-
Ge0rG
it links to https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Shockwave_Lingo_Library
-
pep.
nice wiki page
-
404.city
I suggest replacing the entire list with a link with a large number of servers https://list.jabber.at/ XMPP.org should be free, not a place to advertise individual servers.
-
Ge0rG
If nobody cries loudly, right now, I'll delete both those pages.
-
daniel
Well the good news is if you were to start an organization gear towards end users with same recommendations on how to get started you could probably Google bomb that existing wiki page out of existence very quickly
-
pep.
Ge0rG, please go ahead
-
Ge0rG
404.city: we try to put a square peg into a round hole: allow new users to quickly choose a server without overwhelming them with a full list, while maintaining neutrality
-
Ge0rG
and "plenty of choices" links to the jabber.at list
-
Zash
Ge0rG: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve_of_constant_width
-
Ge0rG
Zash: now please complete the parable.
-
404.city
Ge0rG, In fact, this page is advertised by individual servers. Big does not mean good. The page is misleading new users. They wrote to me that my dermo server, because it is not on this list.✎ -
404.city
Ge0rG, In fact, this page is advertised by individual servers. Big does not mean good. The page is misleading new users. They wrote to me that my shit server, because it is not on this list. ✏
-
Ge0rG
404.city: your users obviously can't read.
-
404.city
Ge0rG, New users go to XMPP and select the server from this list. They will never come to other servers. This page advertises individual servers. This is an unreleased server list
-
Ge0rG
404.city: "As with e-mail, you'll need an account with a service provider. Again, there are plenty of choices, from which these are only a couple of the more popular ones:"
-
Ge0rG
404.city: translate that for your users
-
404.city
Ge0rG, Stop advertising your server yax.im and prevent others from adding.
-
404.city
Your server is not popular. This list does not help new users.
-
Ge0rG
404.city: how do you define "popular"?
-
Ge0rG
404.city: all the things I'm talking about are generic, not related to yax.im or to your server.
-
Ge0rG
404.city: you seem to be enraged because you think that page is advertising, and because your users complain you can't afford a placement :P
-
Zash
The list needs to be small to not be overwhelming for new users. What if it was managed like the client list, and then a random set of ~5 or so was picked when rendering?
-
Ge0rG
Zash: please do so!
-
Zash
Then the "list" can grow without anyone feeling excluded and without overwhelming readers
-
404.city
Ge0rG, Then why is your server on this list?
-
moparisthebest
because of what he said before :)
-
moparisthebest
he knows XSF people with 'merge' powers
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: it's the other way around. Those people know me.
-
Seve/SouL
Guus stated that in the previous logs (the ones mentioned in the pull request).
-
daniel
#klüngel
-
Ge0rG
As was already mentioned by an editor, I'm a person known in the community for some years.
-
404.city
Ge0rG, I do not know you. This is a non-indicative criterion. The List of servers is preconceived advertising
-
Ge0rG
daniel: bless you!
-
MattJ
404.city, but you are not maintaining the list
-
Ge0rG
404.city: nobody knows you. You didn't even provide your full name when signing my jabber spam fighting manifesto, which is a public letter of intent.
-
404.city
Ge0rG, You place in this list hidden advertising of your server, forbidding you to add others.
-
MattJ
404.city, now you're getting personal, and Ge0rG doesn't even maintain the list
-
pep.
Ge0rG, you are the source of all evil
-
moparisthebest
MattJ, no one is maintaining the list, or jabber.at which hasn't supported registration for over 6 months wouldn't be on there, right?
-
Ge0rG
I tried to bribe an editor with beverages once, but had no success!
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: the list is maintained by sending PRs to github and convincing an editor.
-
MattJ
moparisthebest, for the record I'm not really keen on the XSF maintaining (or attempting to maintain) such a list
-
pep.
I like Zash's idea
-
pep.
But I'm not saying that should be maintained bythe XSF
-
Ge0rG
moparisthebest: depending on the tone of the request and the author's reputation, changes get merged fast or never.
-
moparisthebest
MattJ, yep I agree, without a good criteria for maintaining which we clearly don't have, we shouldn't have *any* list
-
Ge0rG
I think that having a biased short list of working servers is better than having none
-
404.city
I consider it necessary to redirect to a full list of servers, rather than recommend individual servers.
-
daniel
A full list?
-
Ge0rG
404.city: There. Is. A. Link. To. A. Full. List!
-
MattJ
There have been many attempts at maintaining lists of servers before, and always they had problems (list.jabber.at was started because of dissatisfaction with the existing "official" list)
-
daniel
The last time I tried to create a full list of xmpp servers my ISP got mad
-
pep.
your ISP?
-
404.city
Ge0rG, If your server were not on this list, you did not protect this server list.
-
Ge0rG
daniel: did you try to scan the internet?
-
daniel
Ge0rG: yah. Some isps don't like tagt
-
daniel
That
-
pep.
Isn't there a service for that already
-
pep.
scanning random ports on the internet
-
pep.
every so often
-
Zash
Shodan(?)?
-
pep.
maybe
-
daniel
Yeah. I wanted to learn
-
404.city
Any list where anyone can add their server
-
daniel
And then tell a random anecdote
-
Ge0rG
404.city: I got my server added a month ago, together with some other changes to the list. I wouldn't die immediately if it got removed again.
-
Ge0rG
404.city: but it seems you would.
-
Ge0rG
404.city: you are behaving like a little kid. Like that little kid with the yellow hair that's travelling the world and insulting everyone.
-
404.city
Ge0rG, You are interested in this list, otherwise you would not have added your server there. It is pointless to deny the obvious.
-
MattJ
Ge0rG, now you're getting personal, please don't
-
Ge0rG
404.city: I've had reasons to add my server to the list. One of the reasons is that I believe that my server is actually well-maintained.
-
Ge0rG
And I care about it working properly. And about fighting spam.
-
pep.
daniel, now you can get back to popcorn
-
flow
Ge0rG, yellow hair kid?
-
pep.
Ge0rG, admit it you had hidden motives when adding your server in the list!!
-
Ge0rG
flow: https://media4.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2018_29/2500386/180717-trump-blimp-london-njs-1025_ee8740bbf368ada52718e72af972a52e.fit-2000w.jpg
-
flow
I'd assume 404.city also believes that his server is well-maintained…
-
daniel
But my server is weller maintained
-
flow
Ahh, if you had said "something something orange skin"…
-
Ge0rG
flow: I even believe that there are other people out here who believe that my server is well-maintained.
-
pep.
Believe all you want
-
flow
I want to belive
-
404.city
daniel, You have the best support)
-
Ge0rG
I don't know how, but c.im always ends up with a 100% Conversations compliance rating
-
Ge0rG
nobody can compete with their cabal to make all xmpp users pay for c.im!
-
404.city
Ge0rG, I also have
-
daniel
Our. Kerbal?
-
Seve/SouL
I'm with MattJ, just let's not continue this way and discuss about the list. A decision has to be taken and continue forward.
-
Ge0rG
can we just get the broken servers removed from that list please?
-
Ge0rG
daniel: you are biased as well! Your paid!1!$! client is on the getting-started client list!
-
daniel
It's not tho
-
daniel
I think
-
Ge0rG
daniel: #1 on https://xmpp.org/getting-started/
-
daniel
Oh. It wasn't on that other list
-
daniel
Thank God for many lists
-
404.city
I think all servers should be removed from this list and give only a link to a large list of servers.
-
Zash
That is not good
-
Zash
Choosing gets harder the longer the list is
-
Zash
Especially for a beginner who doesn't know what criteria to look for
-
Ge0rG
404.city: people disagree with you.
-
404.city
Zash, But this is honest. XMPP.org is not a place for advertising. (Let's leave one server)
-
pep.
Zash, let's make that random thingy. One server per continent choosen among a long list of servers by a fair dice roll (<xkcd reference>)✎ -
pep.
Zash, let's make that random thingy. One server per continent choosen among a long list of servers by a fair dice roll ({xkcd 221}) ✏
-
Bunneh
https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/random_number.png
-
daniel
Ge0rG just wants to maintain the status quo. But the status is not quo
-
pep.
The status is quoi✎ -
Ge0rG
daniel: I don't want to maintain a squaw!
-
pep.
The status quoi ✏
-
moparisthebest
I want to submit my server for xmpp.org too, it doesn't support registration either but it'll be in good company :) (joking)
-
Zash
xmpp.net tho
-
404.city
There are unconditional server leaders in the number of users, but they are not always the best. Need a free list or explicit criteria
-
Ge0rG
404.city: make your own list! with blackjack! and hookers!
-
pep.
404.city, make something with search criteria then? publish that on your website, and propose it for the XSF or whatever
-
404.city
Ge0rG, XMPP.org is a cool organization that tells everyone that it's cool.
-
Zash
Is it now?
-
Ge0rG
404.city: first time I hear that.
-
Ge0rG
Are we speaking of the same org?
-
MattJ
Yeah, I don't think anyone has ever said *that* before
-
Ge0rG
it's great how 404.city has switched from bashing to praising now.
-
404.city
It is problematic to create criteria, because the number of users can be faked. Different servers consider different the correctness of anything.
-
Ge0rG
404.city: how is "number of users" a useful measure?
-
404.city
Ge0rG, The server can be bad with a large number of users. The counter can be made fake.
-
Ge0rG
404.city: so you want to say it's a *bad* metric?
-
404.city
I'm not praising. I say that XMPP.ORG is the center of XMPP
-
Ge0rG
Maybe it's not?
-
daniel
I'm the center of xmpp
-
pep.
MattJ, can we hand in the keys to daniel, now that he fully assumes it
-
404.city
Ge0rG, I can not find out how many users you have. You can say a million, but it's hard to verify. This is a non-indicative criterion. On many large servers, twist the IoT devices, it's not people at all.
-
Zash
Let's rename XMPP to the Conversation Protocol or somesuch.
-
Ge0rG
404.city: what's your point?
-
Ge0rG
Zash: and sell the Conversations™ trademark to Cisco.
-
Zash
YES!
-
404.city
Ge0rG, I already talked about this in a personal conversation two weeks ago. The list should be free or it should not be. XMPP.org is not a place for advertising.
-
Ge0rG
404.city: you are misunderstanding the reason of existence of that page.
-
Ge0rG
404.city: it's not advertising, it's to help new users get to speed quickly.
-
404.city
Ge0rG, Helps to get new users to your server
-
daniel
Don't ask what xmpp.org can do for you. Ask what you can do for xmpp.org
-
Ge0rG
daniel: that's a good one.
-
404.city
Ge0rG, Your server is small, it does not even have 5000 users. He should not be on the big server list.
-
MattJ
It's not a "big server" list
-
moparisthebest
we've already established it's not a "big server list"
-
moparisthebest
it's an "arbitrary server list"
-
moparisthebest
that should probably be removed all together
-
Zash
If anything, it should be an "easy to get started with" list
-
MattJ
404.city, people do not have to pay to be on the list, if that is what you mean by "free". If the XSF-involved volunteers who manage the website and this list agree to list something, it gets listed. It was not agreed to list your server (for now), so there is nothing to discuss about that, it was already raised to the Board, who agreed not to list it
-
MattJ
I think the only valid question at this point is whether there should be a list at all
-
MattJ
and if the Board has to make a decision on that too, so be it
-
Seve/SouL
Agree.
-
MattJ
The Board meeting probably won't happen tomorrow, as at least 2, probably 3, members won't be there
-
Zash
Isn't there a working group that manages the website?
-
Zash
Separate from Board and Editor
-
Ge0rG
Zash: do you mean iteam?
-
404.city
MattJ, I'm talking about this. I hope XMPP.org will be an unbiased Do not advertise individual servers.
-
Ge0rG
MattJ: in case there is a board meeting and the question is brought up, I suggest going with Zash's random-choise-of-servers proposal, and to keep the list, minus disabled servers, until then.
-
404.city
By "free" I meant "open, freedome"
-
pep.
404.city, what does that mean in this case
-
Ge0rG
in the last month, I had 410 visitors from the xmpp.org clients list and 56 visitors from the getting-started page.
-
404.city
Ge0rG, Why in this list should be your server, but should not be mine server. I also have many arguments, the worse, each of these servers of my server. You're interested in the list. You suggested not to add my server. You benefit from the fact that there were few servers on this list.
-
pep.
404.city, stop it already
-
Ge0rG
404.city: I did not suggest not to add your server.
-
daniel
Because Ge0rG knows the right people. That's not fair. But nothing in life is
-
daniel
Deal with it
-
Ge0rG
404.city: you are overestimating the impact of that page.
-
Ge0rG
404.city: and your tone in this discussion (and in the last one, some weeks ago) does not instill confidence
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404.city
Ge0rG, You suggested this, you say that you have 400 people more. It was in a discussion on which my server was not added. If I have more people than yours, you will agree to replace it with yours. I try to explain to everyone why this list is not needed.
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pep.
This was fun until a few minutes ago
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Ge0rG
404.city: how many new users register on your server per day?
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404.city
Ge0rG, ~10 - 50
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Ge0rG
404.city: as I said above, I had 56 page *visits* from the getting-started page. over a *month*
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Ge0rG
404.city: you wouldn't even notice
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Ge0rG
404.city: tell your users who complained that they need to learn reading
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404.city
Ge0rG, Even one person is important to me
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Ge0rG
404.city: go on the street and convince people!
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Ge0rG
404.city: you are making a huge fuss about it. The time you've burned with this discussion could have been spent on fixing client and server bugs.
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404.city
Ge0rG, This does not apply to the essence of the discussion.
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vanitasvitae
We really need a way for servers to discover other servers, so that every server can present its own list to the user
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Ge0rG
404.city: turn it into a productive one. Provide a PR that pulls a JSON/XML from jabber.at and renders five randomly chosen servers.
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404.city
Ge0rG, I can not do it. If I could, I would.
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Ge0rG
404.city: then find somebody.
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Ge0rG
I'm leaving now. BBL
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404.city
Ge0rG, Have a nice day. Let the council decide what to do with this list, but I think that this list is not correct.
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pep.
vanitasvitae, where would you use that?
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Zash
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0309.html
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Zash
vanitasvitae, pep. ↑
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pep.
And there is already a way to do that, keep track of all s2s connections. Though one small deployment that reveals more or less contacts of your users
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pep.
Zash, ah, the buddy thing?
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pep.
Ah no that's just using it
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pep.
So yeah, "just" need an implementation
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daniel
Yeah I don't think getting a random list of domains and posting 5 of them on xmpp.org will do anyone any good
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pep.
daniel, you'd remove the list?
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daniel
I can see an argument for not having the list at all. But if we have one it should be a curated list
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daniel
Which I recognize is hard to do
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pep.
that's the thing, then you get the "It's biased!!" people screaming
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daniel
Right. That's part of why it is 'hard to do'
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404.city
You need a list of clients. No server list✎ -
404.city
We need a list of clients. No server list ✏
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daniel
But you could have some hard criteria. Reasonable high uptime in the last 6 month, compliance, support contact available
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daniel
And so forth
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daniel
But that's obviously a lot of work
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404.city
daniel, It's too much work, I agree. These criteria exist, but xmpp.org does not have a purpose to make server lists.
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Seve/SouL
But anyway, if the XMPP public servers deployment scalated a lot, having a list would not be viable, I think. At list one that is somehow official. Most probably client developers could keep a list of well-known public servers themselves and use it on their clients.
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daniel
404.city: then why do you care so much about being on it?
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MattJ
Because they work for the NSA
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MattJ
</random-theory>
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daniel
I had the some thought
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daniel
So it must be true
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404.city
daniel, I have a goal to provide a server of the highest level. Not to be listed as a recommended XMPP server is disgraceful✎ -
404.city
daniel, I have a goal to provide a server of the highest level. Not to be listed as a recommended xmpp.org server is disgraceful ✏