XSF Discussion - 2018-07-18

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  339. vanitasvitae

    lnj: is there a rendered version of your ProtoXEP for file sharing notifications available somewhere?

  340. Ge0rG

    vanitasvitae: I think it was just a rough idea so far

  341. vanitasvitae

    Ge0rG, I found https://git.kaidan.im/snippets/3 and the author wrote in a mail, that he submitted the proposal to the editor, even though I cannot find an openend PR in xsf/xeps

  342. Zash

    You can submit something to the editor without github

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  344. vanitasvitae

    Zash, ah 😀

  345. jonasw

    vanitasvitae, it was submitted via email

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  347. jonasw

    will merge tomorrow pending IPR Policy agreement.

  348. vanitasvitae

    great 🙂

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  350. jonasw

    vanitasvitae, inofficial render: https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/xeps/fsn.html

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  353. vanitasvitae

    jonasw, thanks 🙂

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  611. 404.city

    Edit rejected? https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/454

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  614. 404.city

    I suggest to remove superfluous servers and to construct strict criteria in the given list

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  616. 404.city

    Or remove all servers. It is unfair that XMPP loses a server of poor quality, and the rest throws out

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  619. 404.city

    This hurts the development of xmpp

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  621. 404.city

    In most of these servers, there is no registration via the xmpp client. In one of them there is no registration on the site. XEP support on all these servers is lousy.

  622. 404.city

    You kill hmpp by consulting these servers. I propose to remove everything and leave a link to the list of servers.

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  624. 404.city

    We kill XMPP by consulting these servers. I propose to remove everything and leave a link to the list of servers.

  625. 404.city

    We kill XMPP by recommending these servers. I propose to remove everything and leave a link to the list of servers.

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  628. moparisthebest

    it does seem insane to have a partial list of servers with no criteria to remove or add them

  629. moparisthebest

    ha so it links jabber.at to https://jabber.at/account/register/ which says "Registration deactivated Registration is currently deactivated. Please see the start page if there is any more information."

  630. moparisthebest

    should that stay on there? does that help people get started with XMPP does it?

  631. moparisthebest

    looks like registration has been closed since Jan 6th 2018

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  633. 404.city

    xmpp.jp - no support omemo http upload xmpp client registrations. Jabber.ru no support xmpp client registrations, http upload. jwchat.org - small server 900 user vs 740 - 404.city. jabber.at - no support all regisracion! cooooooll yaxim.org - small server 1200 user online , support web-regisrations!

  634. moparisthebest

    it should probably just not recommend servers at all, certainly that's less harmful than linking a bunch of dead ones?

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  637. 404.city

    moparisthebest, I agree. It's not fair that people think that my server is bad, because it's no recommending on xmpp.org!

  638. moparisthebest

    I'm not saying your server is good or bad actually

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  640. moparisthebest

    most servers aren't listed on xmpp.org, and obviously some that are are worthless because registration has been closed for half a year

  641. moparisthebest

    we should:

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  643. moparisthebest

    1. have a criteria to add/remove servers

  644. moparisthebest

    2. not list any servers

  645. moparisthebest

    pick one

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  651. 404.city

    moparisthebest, I'm talking about the fact that there is no declarative criterion for selecting this list, so it must be deleted. My server will be more visited than two servers from this list, in half a year.

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  654. pep.

    404.city, help define the criteria

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  658. Ge0rG

    - server should have a well-known admin 😁

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  660. pep.


  661. moparisthebest

    Ge0rG, what a stupid criteria...

  662. moparisthebest

    decentralized messaging!

  663. moparisthebest

    as long as a tiny group of XSF members knows you personally!

  664. 404.city

    pep., I believe that there should not be any limited list. Free choice.

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  667. pep.

    404.city, might as well not put any list on that page then

  668. pep.

    I don't see how we can fit an unlimited list

  669. Ge0rG

    The list on the "getting started" page can't and shouldn't be the authoritative list of all public servers.

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  671. moparisthebest

    should it be a list of servers that don't support registration?

  672. Ge0rG

    It might be replaced by a link to such a list, but truth is that nobody has shown to be able to maintain it for long times. Also a list with thousands of entries doesn't make any sense

  673. 404.city

    Ge0rG, You use this list for advertising. Your server is small.

  674. Ge0rG

    I'd probably go with a list of medium size servers with good uptime and IBR enabled.

  675. 404.city

    Ge0rG, Your server should not be on this list.

  676. pep.

    404.city, we're not fighting for who's got the biggest

  677. Zash

    404.city: Yours should?

  678. Ge0rG

    404.city: most of the users on my server come from the yaxim client.

  679. pep.

    we're not fighting at all

  680. Ge0rG

    404.city: do you want to say that yaxim is just a way to advertise my server?

  681. 404.city

    A good uptime means that there are no system updates. System updates require a reboot.

  682. pep.

    404.city, a good uptime doesn't mean no reboot at all

  683. Ge0rG

    Okay, let's fill the list with servers that have no uptime then.

  684. pep.

    It is a percentage, not a duration

  685. jubalh has joined

  686. SamWhited has left

  687. kasper.dement has joined

  688. moparisthebest

    I think we can all agree "supports registration" should be *a* criteria, can someone remove jabber.at ?

  689. pep.

    I think that's up to the board to agree

  690. Seve/SouL

    What I would do is have an external site saying something like `Community list of servers` or `Unofficial list of servers` where you accept all kind of servers with a minimum of uptime and maybe IBR enabled (free of spammers/admins that care about the server) and you find a form with, Country, most common language of the server and then get a list of the ones available.

  691. 404.city

    I think you need to leave only one link https://list.jabber.at/

  692. pep.

    Also users will certainly prefer servers closest to them, for latency

  693. labdsf has left

  694. moparisthebest

    does that matter in xmpp ? :/

  695. pep.


  696. moparisthebest

    I don't think it does, it's not a first person shooter

  697. pep.

    I live with 300ms to my server, it does somewhat

  698. Seve/SouL

    404.city, I didn't know about that list, thank you.

  699. 404.city

    pep yes

  700. pep.

    404.city, so this fact alone kind of dismisses the idea of having a list on that page

  701. pep.

    Or maybe we should have per continent list :/

  702. jjrh has left

  703. jjrh has left

  704. Zash

    Or maybe the XSF shouldn't do this at all

  705. 404.city

    You need an honest list with all the servers and free choice.

  706. pep.

    Zash, I mostly agree with that

  707. moparisthebest

    yea I'm leaning that way Zash

  708. pep.

    JSF would do!

  709. peter


  710. pep.

    Jabber Sans Frontières

  711. moparisthebest

    a list of people that were buddies with XSF members 5 years ago seems like the absolute worst thing to do

  712. Zash

    IIRC someone said these kinds of lists eventually just attract people trying to use it for marketing

  713. Zash

    Including "XEP support" lists

  714. Seve/SouL

    I think is good to have a list, but it is clear that not like we have it now.

  715. marc has left

  716. moparisthebest

    who is jwchat.org / Mathias Ertl ?

  717. pep.

    I think it is pretty clear we should kill the list on this page

  718. Guus has left

  719. Zash

    Let other people make their own unofficial lists. Maybe we can have a list of lists.

  720. moparisthebest

    yea that would make more sense imho

  721. marc has joined

  722. 404.city

    pep., I support this idea, because people think that all the servers that are not on this list are bad.

  723. Guus has joined

  724. Seve/SouL

    First time I hear that, though.

  725. moparisthebest

    404.city, I'm not so sure that's true, I've never even seen that list

  726. ThibG has joined

  727. pep.

    moparisthebest, I have seen it used multiple times in the past

  728. daniel

    Shit that history locks like I should grab some 🍿

  729. pep.

    daniel: I guess people are usually skewed towards conversations' list nowadays anyway ;p

  730. Guus has left

  731. Guus has joined

  732. pep.

    daniel: I guess people are mostly skewed towards conversations' list nowadays anyway ;p

  733. daniel

    Yeah that history was a bit more boring than I hoped

  734. Zash

    Prosodys list: 1. Run your own! ;)

  735. daniel

    I'm not really comfortable with being the list. I rather create the tools so other people can create lists

  736. kasper.dement has joined

  737. Zash

    daniel: Too late

  738. pep.

    yeah it's a bit late now

  739. daniel

    But yeah I guess my list is more useful in some ways than the one on xmpp.org

  740. dos has left

  741. rishiraj22 has left

  742. marc has left

  743. 404.city has left

  744. Ge0rG

    > Maybe we can have a list of lists. This is the opposite of the intention behind "getting started"

  745. Ge0rG

    Also the list of lists needs criteria on which to rate and compare the lists.

  746. pep.

    I'd prefer to having clients support IBR/PARS/whatever stuff and have users use that. Or have somebody invite them with the invite app thingy

  747. pep.

    I'd prefer to have clients support IBR/PARS/whatever stuff and have users use that. Or have somebody invite them with the invite app thingy

  748. Ge0rG

    pep.: me too. But people landing on the "getting started" page might need some help.

  749. Ge0rG

    maybe each client should have its own recommended server, so the user ends up with whatever is the default value

  750. Ge0rG

    ...and has to pay after 6 months.

  751. pep.


  752. pep. eyes around

  753. pep.

    Ge0rG, well tbh, that depends on the service.

  754. daniel

    > pep.: me too. But people landing on the "getting started" page might need some help. Is this is a relevant amount of people?

  755. pep.

    I'm paying for my own service

  756. daniel

    Is this a problem worth fixing

  757. Ge0rG

    daniel: ask iteam for web server stats?

  758. marc has joined

  759. daniel

    I certainly didn't go to xmpp.org when I started using jabber

  760. pep.

    I don't even remember

  761. daniel

    That website is pretty crappy for end users anyway

  762. daniel

    I don't think it shows up on Google very high

  763. Zash

    The purpose of the XSF is to govern the standards. Does this include things directed at end-users?

  764. daniel

    People just hear about jabber somewhere and that place usually just sends them to a client

  765. daniel

    Or anywhere but not to xmpp.org

  766. 404.city has joined

  767. Ge0rG

    because xmpp.org isn't even jabber.

  768. daniel

    Or people go to xmpp.org learn about how awesome it is being used to kill people and leave very confused

  769. Ge0rG

    Speaking of neutrality. My #2 google hit for "getting started with xmpp" is this: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Getting_Started > Welcome to the Getting Started Guide for the Tagarela Jabber Library

  770. alacer has left

  771. Ge0rG

    And I haven't ever heard of tagarela.

  772. Ge0rG

    > This page was last modified on 29 August 2005, at 04:01.

  773. Ge0rG

    I think this is an accurate representation of our situation.

  774. daniel

    > Open Macromedia Director

  775. daniel


  776. Ge0rG

    it links to https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Shockwave_Lingo_Library

  777. pep.

    nice wiki page

  778. 404.city

    I suggest replacing the entire list with a link with a large number of servers https://list.jabber.at/ XMPP.org should be free, not a place to advertise individual servers.

  779. Ge0rG

    If nobody cries loudly, right now, I'll delete both those pages.

  780. daniel

    Well the good news is if you were to start an organization gear towards end users with same recommendations on how to get started you could probably Google bomb that existing wiki page out of existence very quickly

  781. pep.

    Ge0rG, please go ahead

  782. marmistrz has left

  783. Guus has left

  784. marmistrz has left

  785. Ge0rG

    404.city: we try to put a square peg into a round hole: allow new users to quickly choose a server without overwhelming them with a full list, while maintaining neutrality

  786. Ge0rG

    and "plenty of choices" links to the jabber.at list

  787. Zash

    Ge0rG: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve_of_constant_width

  788. kasper.dement has joined

  789. Ge0rG

    Zash: now please complete the parable.

  790. 404.city

    Ge0rG, In fact, this page is advertised by individual servers. Big does not mean good. The page is misleading new users. They wrote to me that my dermo server, because it is not on this list.

  791. 404.city

    Ge0rG, In fact, this page is advertised by individual servers. Big does not mean good. The page is misleading new users. They wrote to me that my shit server, because it is not on this list.

  792. Ge0rG

    404.city: your users obviously can't read.

  793. marc has left

  794. 404.city

    Ge0rG, New users go to XMPP and select the server from this list. They will never come to other servers. This page advertises individual servers. This is an unreleased server list

  795. Ge0rG

    404.city: "As with e-mail, you'll need an account with a service provider. Again, there are plenty of choices, from which these are only a couple of the more popular ones:"

  796. Ge0rG

    404.city: translate that for your users

  797. j.r has joined

  798. 404.city

    Ge0rG, Stop advertising your server yax.im and prevent others from adding.

  799. 404.city

    Your server is not popular. This list does not help new users.

  800. Ge0rG

    404.city: how do you define "popular"?

  801. Ge0rG

    404.city: all the things I'm talking about are generic, not related to yax.im or to your server.

  802. Ge0rG

    404.city: you seem to be enraged because you think that page is advertising, and because your users complain you can't afford a placement :P

  803. Zash

    The list needs to be small to not be overwhelming for new users. What if it was managed like the client list, and then a random set of ~5 or so was picked when rendering?

  804. marc has joined

  805. Ge0rG

    Zash: please do so!

  806. marmistrz has left

  807. Zash

    Then the "list" can grow without anyone feeling excluded and without overwhelming readers

  808. 404.city

    Ge0rG, Then why is your server on this list?

  809. moparisthebest

    because of what he said before :)

  810. moparisthebest

    he knows XSF people with 'merge' powers

  811. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: it's the other way around. Those people know me.

  812. jjrh has left

  813. Seve/SouL

    Guus stated that in the previous logs (the ones mentioned in the pull request).

  814. daniel


  815. Ge0rG

    As was already mentioned by an editor, I'm a person known in the community for some years.

  816. 404.city

    Ge0rG, I do not know you. This is a non-indicative criterion. The List of servers is preconceived advertising

  817. Ge0rG

    daniel: bless you!

  818. MattJ

    404.city, but you are not maintaining the list

  819. Ge0rG

    404.city: nobody knows you. You didn't even provide your full name when signing my jabber spam fighting manifesto, which is a public letter of intent.

  820. 404.city

    Ge0rG, You place in this list hidden advertising of your server, forbidding you to add others.

  821. MattJ

    404.city, now you're getting personal, and Ge0rG doesn't even maintain the list

  822. pep.

    Ge0rG, you are the source of all evil

  823. kasper.dement has joined

  824. moparisthebest

    MattJ, no one is maintaining the list, or jabber.at which hasn't supported registration for over 6 months wouldn't be on there, right?

  825. Ge0rG

    I tried to bribe an editor with beverages once, but had no success!

  826. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: the list is maintained by sending PRs to github and convincing an editor.

  827. MattJ

    moparisthebest, for the record I'm not really keen on the XSF maintaining (or attempting to maintain) such a list

  828. Dave Cridland has left

  829. pep.

    I like Zash's idea

  830. pep.

    But I'm not saying that should be maintained bythe XSF

  831. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: depending on the tone of the request and the author's reputation, changes get merged fast or never.

  832. moparisthebest

    MattJ, yep I agree, without a good criteria for maintaining which we clearly don't have, we shouldn't have *any* list

  833. Ge0rG

    I think that having a biased short list of working servers is better than having none

  834. 404.city

    I consider it necessary to redirect to a full list of servers, rather than recommend individual servers.

  835. daniel

    A full list?

  836. Ge0rG

    404.city: There. Is. A. Link. To. A. Full. List!

  837. MattJ

    There have been many attempts at maintaining lists of servers before, and always they had problems (list.jabber.at was started because of dissatisfaction with the existing "official" list)

  838. daniel

    The last time I tried to create a full list of xmpp servers my ISP got mad

  839. pep.

    your ISP?

  840. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  841. 404.city

    Ge0rG, If your server were not on this list, you did not protect this server list.

  842. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  843. Ge0rG

    daniel: did you try to scan the internet?

  844. jjrh has left

  845. daniel

    Ge0rG: yah. Some isps don't like tagt

  846. daniel


  847. pep.

    Isn't there a service for that already

  848. pep.

    scanning random ports on the internet

  849. pep.

    every so often

  850. Zash


  851. pep.


  852. daniel

    Yeah. I wanted to learn

  853. 404.city

    Any list where anyone can add their server

  854. daniel

    And then tell a random anecdote

  855. Ge0rG

    404.city: I got my server added a month ago, together with some other changes to the list. I wouldn't die immediately if it got removed again.

  856. Ge0rG

    404.city: but it seems you would.

  857. Ge0rG

    404.city: you are behaving like a little kid. Like that little kid with the yellow hair that's travelling the world and insulting everyone.

  858. 404.city

    Ge0rG, You are interested in this list, otherwise you would not have added your server there. It is pointless to deny the obvious.

  859. MattJ

    Ge0rG, now you're getting personal, please don't

  860. Ge0rG

    404.city: I've had reasons to add my server to the list. One of the reasons is that I believe that my server is actually well-maintained.

  861. Ge0rG

    And I care about it working properly. And about fighting spam.

  862. pep.

    daniel, now you can get back to popcorn

  863. flow

    Ge0rG, yellow hair kid?

  864. pep.

    Ge0rG, admit it you had hidden motives when adding your server in the list!!

  865. Ge0rG

    flow: https://media4.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2018_29/2500386/180717-trump-blimp-london-njs-1025_ee8740bbf368ada52718e72af972a52e.fit-2000w.jpg

  866. flow

    I'd assume 404.city also believes that his server is well-maintained…

  867. mimi89999 has joined

  868. daniel

    But my server is weller maintained

  869. flow

    Ahh, if you had said "something something orange skin"…

  870. Ge0rG

    flow: I even believe that there are other people out here who believe that my server is well-maintained.

  871. pep.

    Believe all you want

  872. flow

    I want to belive

  873. 404.city

    daniel, You have the best support)

  874. Ge0rG

    I don't know how, but c.im always ends up with a 100% Conversations compliance rating

  875. Ge0rG

    nobody can compete with their cabal to make all xmpp users pay for c.im!

  876. 404.city

    Ge0rG, I also have

  877. daniel

    Our. Kerbal?

  878. Seve/SouL

    I'm with MattJ, just let's not continue this way and discuss about the list. A decision has to be taken and continue forward.

  879. Ge0rG

    can we just get the broken servers removed from that list please?

  880. Ge0rG

    daniel: you are biased as well! Your paid!1!$! client is on the getting-started client list!

  881. daniel

    It's not tho

  882. daniel

    I think

  883. Ge0rG

    daniel: #1 on https://xmpp.org/getting-started/

  884. Tobias has joined

  885. daniel

    Oh. It wasn't on that other list

  886. daniel

    Thank God for many lists

  887. 404.city

    I think all servers should be removed from this list and give only a link to a large list of servers.

  888. Zash

    That is not good

  889. Zash

    Choosing gets harder the longer the list is

  890. Zash

    Especially for a beginner who doesn't know what criteria to look for

  891. Ge0rG

    404.city: people disagree with you.

  892. Dave Cridland has left

  893. 404.city

    Zash, But this is honest. XMPP.org is not a place for advertising. (Let's leave one server)

  894. pep.

    Zash, let's make that random thingy. One server per continent choosen among a long list of servers by a fair dice roll (<xkcd reference>)

  895. pep.

    Zash, let's make that random thingy. One server per continent choosen among a long list of servers by a fair dice roll ({xkcd 221})

  896. Bunneh


    Random Number
    Random Number
  897. daniel

    Ge0rG just wants to maintain the status quo. But the status is not quo

  898. Dave Cridland has left

  899. pep.

    The status is quoi

  900. Ge0rG

    daniel: I don't want to maintain a squaw!

  901. pep.

    The status quoi

  902. dos has joined

  903. moparisthebest

    I want to submit my server for xmpp.org too, it doesn't support registration either but it'll be in good company :) (joking)

  904. Zash

    xmpp.net tho

  905. 404.city

    There are unconditional server leaders in the number of users, but they are not always the best. Need a free list or explicit criteria

  906. Ge0rG

    404.city: make your own list! with blackjack! and hookers!

  907. kasper.dement has joined

  908. pep.

    404.city, make something with search criteria then? publish that on your website, and propose it for the XSF or whatever

  909. 404.city

    Ge0rG, XMPP.org is a cool organization that tells everyone that it's cool.

  910. Zash

    Is it now?

  911. Ge0rG

    404.city: first time I hear that.

  912. Ge0rG

    Are we speaking of the same org?

  913. MattJ

    Yeah, I don't think anyone has ever said *that* before

  914. Ge0rG

    it's great how 404.city has switched from bashing to praising now.

  915. 404.city

    It is problematic to create criteria, because the number of users can be faked. Different servers consider different the correctness of anything.

  916. Ge0rG

    404.city: how is "number of users" a useful measure?

  917. 404.city

    Ge0rG, The server can be bad with a large number of users. The counter can be made fake.

  918. Ge0rG

    404.city: so you want to say it's a *bad* metric?

  919. 404.city

    I'm not praising. I say that XMPP.ORG is the center of XMPP

  920. Ge0rG

    Maybe it's not?

  921. blabla has joined

  922. daniel

    I'm the center of xmpp

  923. Dave Cridland has left

  924. Dave Cridland has left

  925. pep.

    MattJ, can we hand in the keys to daniel, now that he fully assumes it

  926. 404.city

    Ge0rG, I can not find out how many users you have. You can say a million, but it's hard to verify. This is a non-indicative criterion. On many large servers, twist the IoT devices, it's not people at all.

  927. Zash

    Let's rename XMPP to the Conversation Protocol or somesuch.

  928. Ge0rG

    404.city: what's your point?

  929. Ge0rG

    Zash: and sell the Conversations™ trademark to Cisco.

  930. Zash


  931. la|r|ma has left

  932. kasper.dement has joined

  933. 404.city

    Ge0rG, I already talked about this in a personal conversation two weeks ago. The list should be free or it should not be. XMPP.org is not a place for advertising.

  934. labdsf has left

  935. Ge0rG

    404.city: you are misunderstanding the reason of existence of that page.

  936. Ge0rG

    404.city: it's not advertising, it's to help new users get to speed quickly.

  937. Dave Cridland has left

  938. labdsf has left

  939. 404.city

    Ge0rG, Helps to get new users to your server

  940. daniel

    Don't ask what xmpp.org can do for you. Ask what you can do for xmpp.org

  941. Yagiza has left

  942. Ge0rG

    daniel: that's a good one.

  943. 404.city

    Ge0rG, Your server is small, it does not even have 5000 users. He should not be on the big server list.

  944. MattJ

    It's not a "big server" list

  945. moparisthebest

    we've already established it's not a "big server list"

  946. moparisthebest

    it's an "arbitrary server list"

  947. moparisthebest

    that should probably be removed all together

  948. Zash

    If anything, it should be an "easy to get started with" list

  949. MattJ

    404.city, people do not have to pay to be on the list, if that is what you mean by "free". If the XSF-involved volunteers who manage the website and this list agree to list something, it gets listed. It was not agreed to list your server (for now), so there is nothing to discuss about that, it was already raised to the Board, who agreed not to list it

  950. MattJ

    I think the only valid question at this point is whether there should be a list at all

  951. Tobias has joined

  952. MattJ

    and if the Board has to make a decision on that too, so be it

  953. Seve/SouL


  954. rishiraj22 has left

  955. MattJ

    The Board meeting probably won't happen tomorrow, as at least 2, probably 3, members won't be there

  956. Zash

    Isn't there a working group that manages the website?

  957. Zash

    Separate from Board and Editor

  958. SamWhited has left

  959. Ge0rG

    Zash: do you mean iteam?

  960. la|r|ma has left

  961. waqas has left

  962. kasper.dement has joined

  963. la|r|ma has left

  964. anjan has joined

  965. 404.city

    MattJ, I'm talking about this. I hope XMPP.org will be an unbiased Do not advertise individual servers.

  966. Ge0rG

    MattJ: in case there is a board meeting and the question is brought up, I suggest going with Zash's random-choise-of-servers proposal, and to keep the list, minus disabled servers, until then.

  967. jubalh has left

  968. 404.city

    By "free" I meant "open, freedome"

  969. pep.

    404.city, what does that mean in this case

  970. anjan has left

  971. j.r has joined

  972. Dave Cridland has left

  973. Ge0rG

    in the last month, I had 410 visitors from the xmpp.org clients list and 56 visitors from the getting-started page.

  974. 404.city

    Ge0rG, Why in this list should be your server, but should not be mine server. I also have many arguments, the worse, each of these servers of my server. You're interested in the list. You suggested not to add my server. You benefit from the fact that there were few servers on this list.

  975. pep.

    404.city, stop it already

  976. Ge0rG

    404.city: I did not suggest not to add your server.

  977. daniel

    Because Ge0rG knows the right people. That's not fair. But nothing in life is

  978. daniel

    Deal with it

  979. Ge0rG

    404.city: you are overestimating the impact of that page.

  980. Dave Cridland has left

  981. Ge0rG

    404.city: and your tone in this discussion (and in the last one, some weeks ago) does not instill confidence

  982. 404.city

    Ge0rG, You suggested this, you say that you have 400 people more. It was in a discussion on which my server was not added. If I have more people than yours, you will agree to replace it with yours. I try to explain to everyone why this list is not needed.

  983. pep.

    This was fun until a few minutes ago

  984. Valerian has joined

  985. Ge0rG

    404.city: how many new users register on your server per day?

  986. jubalh has left

  987. 404.city

    Ge0rG, ~10 - 50

  988. Dave Cridland has left

  989. Ge0rG

    404.city: as I said above, I had 56 page *visits* from the getting-started page. over a *month*

  990. Ge0rG

    404.city: you wouldn't even notice

  991. Dave Cridland has left

  992. Ge0rG

    404.city: tell your users who complained that they need to learn reading

  993. 404.city

    Ge0rG, Even one person is important to me

  994. rishiraj22 has left

  995. Ge0rG

    404.city: go on the street and convince people!

  996. Dave Cridland has left

  997. Ge0rG

    404.city: you are making a huge fuss about it. The time you've burned with this discussion could have been spent on fixing client and server bugs.

  998. 404.city

    Ge0rG, This does not apply to the essence of the discussion.

  999. vanitasvitae

    We really need a way for servers to discover other servers, so that every server can present its own list to the user

  1000. Ge0rG

    404.city: turn it into a productive one. Provide a PR that pulls a JSON/XML from jabber.at and renders five randomly chosen servers.

  1001. Dave Cridland has left

  1002. 404.city

    Ge0rG, I can not do it. If I could, I would.

  1003. Ge0rG

    404.city: then find somebody.

  1004. Tobias has joined

  1005. Ge0rG

    I'm leaving now. BBL

  1006. Dave Cridland has left

  1007. 404.city

    Ge0rG, Have a nice day. Let the council decide what to do with this list, but I think that this list is not correct.

  1008. pep.

    vanitasvitae, where would you use that?

  1009. kasper.dement has joined

  1010. kasper.dement has joined

  1011. Zash


  1012. Zash

    vanitasvitae, pep. ↑

  1013. pep.

    And there is already a way to do that, keep track of all s2s connections. Though one small deployment that reveals more or less contacts of your users

  1014. pep.

    Zash, ah, the buddy thing?

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  1017. pep.

    Ah no that's just using it

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  1019. pep.

    So yeah, "just" need an implementation

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  1023. daniel

    Yeah I don't think getting a random list of domains and posting 5 of them on xmpp.org will do anyone any good

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  1025. pep.

    daniel, you'd remove the list?

  1026. daniel

    I can see an argument for not having the list at all. But if we have one it should be a curated list

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  1029. daniel

    Which I recognize is hard to do

  1030. pep.

    that's the thing, then you get the "It's biased!!" people screaming

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  1033. daniel

    Right. That's part of why it is 'hard to do'

  1034. 404.city

    You need a list of clients. No server list

  1035. 404.city

    We need a list of clients. No server list

  1036. daniel

    But you could have some hard criteria. Reasonable high uptime in the last 6 month, compliance, support contact available

  1037. daniel

    And so forth

  1038. daniel

    But that's obviously a lot of work

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  1040. 404.city

    daniel, It's too much work, I agree. These criteria exist, but xmpp.org does not have a purpose to make server lists.

  1041. Seve/SouL

    But anyway, if the XMPP public servers deployment scalated a lot, having a list would not be viable, I think. At list one that is somehow official. Most probably client developers could keep a list of well-known public servers themselves and use it on their clients.

  1042. daniel

    404.city: then why do you care so much about being on it?

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  1044. MattJ

    Because they work for the NSA

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  1046. MattJ


  1047. daniel

    I had the some thought

  1048. daniel

    So it must be true

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  1053. 404.city

    daniel, I have a goal to provide a server of the highest level. Not to be listed as a recommended XMPP server is disgraceful

  1054. 404.city

    daniel, I have a goal to provide a server of the highest level. Not to be listed as a recommended xmpp.org server is disgraceful

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