XSF Discussion - 2018-07-18

lnj: is there a rendered version of your ProtoXEP for file sharing notifications available somewhere?

vanitasvitae: I think it was just a rough idea so far

Ge0rG, I found https://git.kaidan.im/snippets/3 and the author wrote in a mail, that he submitted the proposal to the editor, even though I cannot find an openend PR in xsf/xeps

You can submit something to the editor without github

Zash, ah 😀

vanitasvitae, it was submitted via email

will merge tomorrow pending IPR Policy agreement.

great 🙂

vanitasvitae, inofficial render: https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/xeps/fsn.html

jonasw, thanks 🙂

Edit rejected? https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/454

I suggest to remove superfluous servers and to construct strict criteria in the given list

Or remove all servers. It is unfair that XMPP loses a server of poor quality, and the rest throws out

This hurts the development of xmpp

In most of these servers, there is no registration via the xmpp client. In one of them there is no registration on the site. XEP support on all these servers is lousy.

We kill XMPP by recommending these servers. I propose to remove everything and leave a link to the list of servers. ✏

it does seem insane to have a partial list of servers with no criteria to remove or add them

ha so it links jabber.at to https://jabber.at/account/register/ which says "Registration deactivated Registration is currently deactivated. Please see the start page if there is any more information."

should that stay on there? does that help people get started with XMPP does it?

looks like registration has been closed since Jan 6th 2018

xmpp.jp - no support omemo http upload xmpp client registrations. Jabber.ru no support xmpp client registrations, http upload. jwchat.org - small server 900 user vs 740 - 404.city. jabber.at - no support all regisracion! cooooooll yaxim.org - small server 1200 user online , support web-regisrations!

it should probably just not recommend servers at all, certainly that's less harmful than linking a bunch of dead ones?

moparisthebest, I agree. It's not fair that people think that my server is bad, because it's no recommending on xmpp.org!

I'm not saying your server is good or bad actually

most servers aren't listed on xmpp.org, and obviously some that are are worthless because registration has been closed for half a year

we should:

1. have a criteria to add/remove servers

2. not list any servers

pick one

moparisthebest, I'm talking about the fact that there is no declarative criterion for selecting this list, so it must be deleted. My server will be more visited than two servers from this list, in half a year.

404.city, help define the criteria

- server should have a well-known admin 😁

hah

Ge0rG, what a stupid criteria...

decentralized messaging!

as long as a tiny group of XSF members knows you personally!

pep., I believe that there should not be any limited list. Free choice.

404.city, might as well not put any list on that page then

I don't see how we can fit an unlimited list

The list on the "getting started" page can't and shouldn't be the authoritative list of all public servers.

should it be a list of servers that don't support registration?

It might be replaced by a link to such a list, but truth is that nobody has shown to be able to maintain it for long times. Also a list with thousands of entries doesn't make any sense

Ge0rG, You use this list for advertising. Your server is small.

I'd probably go with a list of medium size servers with good uptime and IBR enabled.

Ge0rG, Your server should not be on this list.

404.city, we're not fighting for who's got the biggest

404.city: Yours should?

404.city: most of the users on my server come from the yaxim client.

we're not fighting at all

404.city: do you want to say that yaxim is just a way to advertise my server?

A good uptime means that there are no system updates. System updates require a reboot.

404.city, a good uptime doesn't mean no reboot at all

Okay, let's fill the list with servers that have no uptime then.

It is a percentage, not a duration

I think we can all agree "supports registration" should be *a* criteria, can someone remove jabber.at ?

I think that's up to the board to agree

What I would do is have an external site saying something like `Community list of servers` or `Unofficial list of servers` where you accept all kind of servers with a minimum of uptime and maybe IBR enabled (free of spammers/admins that care about the server) and you find a form with, Country, most common language of the server and then get a list of the ones available.

I think you need to leave only one link https://list.jabber.at/

Also users will certainly prefer servers closest to them, for latency

does that matter in xmpp ? :/

latency?

I don't think it does, it's not a first person shooter

I live with 300ms to my server, it does somewhat

404.city, I didn't know about that list, thank you.

pep yes

404.city, so this fact alone kind of dismisses the idea of having a list on that page

Or maybe we should have per continent list :/

Or maybe the XSF shouldn't do this at all

You need an honest list with all the servers and free choice.

Zash, I mostly agree with that

yea I'm leaning that way Zash

JSF would do!

;-)

Jabber Sans Frontières

a list of people that were buddies with XSF members 5 years ago seems like the absolute worst thing to do

IIRC someone said these kinds of lists eventually just attract people trying to use it for marketing

Including "XEP support" lists

I think is good to have a list, but it is clear that not like we have it now.

who is jwchat.org / Mathias Ertl ?

I think it is pretty clear we should kill the list on this page

Let other people make their own unofficial lists. Maybe we can have a list of lists.

yea that would make more sense imho

pep., I support this idea, because people think that all the servers that are not on this list are bad.

First time I hear that, though.

404.city, I'm not so sure that's true, I've never even seen that list

moparisthebest, I have seen it used multiple times in the past

Shit that history locks like I should grab some 🍿

daniel: I guess people are mostly skewed towards conversations' list nowadays anyway ;p ✏

Yeah that history was a bit more boring than I hoped

Prosodys list: 1. Run your own! ;)

I'm not really comfortable with being the list. I rather create the tools so other people can create lists

daniel: Too late

yeah it's a bit late now

But yeah I guess my list is more useful in some ways than the one on xmpp.org

> Maybe we can have a list of lists. This is the opposite of the intention behind "getting started"

Also the list of lists needs criteria on which to rate and compare the lists.

I'd prefer to have clients support IBR/PARS/whatever stuff and have users use that. Or have somebody invite them with the invite app thingy ✏

pep.: me too. But people landing on the "getting started" page might need some help.

maybe each client should have its own recommended server, so the user ends up with whatever is the default value

...and has to pay after 6 months.

:D

Ge0rG, well tbh, that depends on the service.

> pep.: me too. But people landing on the "getting started" page might need some help. Is this is a relevant amount of people?

I'm paying for my own service

Is this a problem worth fixing

daniel: ask iteam for web server stats?

I certainly didn't go to xmpp.org when I started using jabber

I don't even remember

That website is pretty crappy for end users anyway

I don't think it shows up on Google very high

The purpose of the XSF is to govern the standards. Does this include things directed at end-users?

People just hear about jabber somewhere and that place usually just sends them to a client

Or anywhere but not to xmpp.org

because xmpp.org isn't even jabber.

Or people go to xmpp.org learn about how awesome it is being used to kill people and leave very confused

Speaking of neutrality. My #2 google hit for "getting started with xmpp" is this: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Getting_Started > Welcome to the Getting Started Guide for the Tagarela Jabber Library

And I haven't ever heard of tagarela.

> This page was last modified on 29 August 2005, at 04:01.

I think this is an accurate representation of our situation.

> Open Macromedia Director

Ok

it links to https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Shockwave_Lingo_Library

nice wiki page

I suggest replacing the entire list with a link with a large number of servers https://list.jabber.at/ XMPP.org should be free, not a place to advertise individual servers.

If nobody cries loudly, right now, I'll delete both those pages.

Well the good news is if you were to start an organization gear towards end users with same recommendations on how to get started you could probably Google bomb that existing wiki page out of existence very quickly

Ge0rG, please go ahead

404.city: we try to put a square peg into a round hole: allow new users to quickly choose a server without overwhelming them with a full list, while maintaining neutrality

and "plenty of choices" links to the jabber.at list

Ge0rG: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve_of_constant_width

Zash: now please complete the parable.

Ge0rG, In fact, this page is advertised by individual servers. Big does not mean good. The page is misleading new users. They wrote to me that my shit server, because it is not on this list. ✏

404.city: your users obviously can't read.

Ge0rG, New users go to XMPP and select the server from this list. They will never come to other servers. This page advertises individual servers. This is an unreleased server list

404.city: "As with e-mail, you'll need an account with a service provider. Again, there are plenty of choices, from which these are only a couple of the more popular ones:"

404.city: translate that for your users

Ge0rG, Stop advertising your server yax.im and prevent others from adding.

Your server is not popular. This list does not help new users.

404.city: how do you define "popular"?

404.city: all the things I'm talking about are generic, not related to yax.im or to your server.

404.city: you seem to be enraged because you think that page is advertising, and because your users complain you can't afford a placement :P

The list needs to be small to not be overwhelming for new users. What if it was managed like the client list, and then a random set of ~5 or so was picked when rendering?

Zash: please do so!

Then the "list" can grow without anyone feeling excluded and without overwhelming readers

Ge0rG, Then why is your server on this list?

because of what he said before :)

he knows XSF people with 'merge' powers

moparisthebest: it's the other way around. Those people know me.

Guus stated that in the previous logs (the ones mentioned in the pull request).

#klüngel

As was already mentioned by an editor, I'm a person known in the community for some years.

Ge0rG, I do not know you. This is a non-indicative criterion. The List of servers is preconceived advertising

daniel: bless you!

404.city, but you are not maintaining the list

404.city: nobody knows you. You didn't even provide your full name when signing my jabber spam fighting manifesto, which is a public letter of intent.

Ge0rG, You place in this list hidden advertising of your server, forbidding you to add others.

404.city, now you're getting personal, and Ge0rG doesn't even maintain the list

Ge0rG, you are the source of all evil

MattJ, no one is maintaining the list, or jabber.at which hasn't supported registration for over 6 months wouldn't be on there, right?

I tried to bribe an editor with beverages once, but had no success!

moparisthebest: the list is maintained by sending PRs to github and convincing an editor.

moparisthebest, for the record I'm not really keen on the XSF maintaining (or attempting to maintain) such a list

I like Zash's idea

But I'm not saying that should be maintained bythe XSF

moparisthebest: depending on the tone of the request and the author's reputation, changes get merged fast or never.

MattJ, yep I agree, without a good criteria for maintaining which we clearly don't have, we shouldn't have *any* list

I think that having a biased short list of working servers is better than having none

I consider it necessary to redirect to a full list of servers, rather than recommend individual servers.

A full list?

404.city: There. Is. A. Link. To. A. Full. List!

There have been many attempts at maintaining lists of servers before, and always they had problems (list.jabber.at was started because of dissatisfaction with the existing "official" list)

The last time I tried to create a full list of xmpp servers my ISP got mad

your ISP?

Ge0rG, If your server were not on this list, you did not protect this server list.

daniel: did you try to scan the internet?

Ge0rG: yah. Some isps don't like tagt

That

Isn't there a service for that already

scanning random ports on the internet

every so often

Shodan(?)?

maybe

Yeah. I wanted to learn

Any list where anyone can add their server

And then tell a random anecdote

404.city: I got my server added a month ago, together with some other changes to the list. I wouldn't die immediately if it got removed again.

404.city: but it seems you would.

404.city: you are behaving like a little kid. Like that little kid with the yellow hair that's travelling the world and insulting everyone.

Ge0rG, You are interested in this list, otherwise you would not have added your server there. It is pointless to deny the obvious.

Ge0rG, now you're getting personal, please don't

404.city: I've had reasons to add my server to the list. One of the reasons is that I believe that my server is actually well-maintained.

And I care about it working properly. And about fighting spam.

daniel, now you can get back to popcorn

Ge0rG, yellow hair kid?

Ge0rG, admit it you had hidden motives when adding your server in the list!!

flow: https://media4.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2018_29/2500386/180717-trump-blimp-london-njs-1025_ee8740bbf368ada52718e72af972a52e.fit-2000w.jpg

I'd assume 404.city also believes that his server is well-maintained…

But my server is weller maintained

Ahh, if you had said "something something orange skin"…

flow: I even believe that there are other people out here who believe that my server is well-maintained.

Believe all you want

I want to belive

daniel, You have the best support)

I don't know how, but c.im always ends up with a 100% Conversations compliance rating

nobody can compete with their cabal to make all xmpp users pay for c.im!

Ge0rG, I also have

Our. Kerbal?

I'm with MattJ, just let's not continue this way and discuss about the list. A decision has to be taken and continue forward.

can we just get the broken servers removed from that list please?

daniel: you are biased as well! Your paid!1!$! client is on the getting-started client list!

It's not tho

I think

daniel: #1 on https://xmpp.org/getting-started/

Oh. It wasn't on that other list

Thank God for many lists

I think all servers should be removed from this list and give only a link to a large list of servers.

That is not good

Choosing gets harder the longer the list is

Especially for a beginner who doesn't know what criteria to look for

404.city: people disagree with you.

Zash, But this is honest. XMPP.org is not a place for advertising. (Let's leave one server)

Zash, let's make that random thingy. One server per continent choosen among a long list of servers by a fair dice roll ({xkcd 221}) ✏

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/random_number.png

Ge0rG just wants to maintain the status quo. But the status is not quo

daniel: I don't want to maintain a squaw!

The status quoi ✏

I want to submit my server for xmpp.org too, it doesn't support registration either but it'll be in good company :) (joking)

xmpp.net tho

There are unconditional server leaders in the number of users, but they are not always the best. Need a free list or explicit criteria

404.city: make your own list! with blackjack! and hookers!

404.city, make something with search criteria then? publish that on your website, and propose it for the XSF or whatever

Ge0rG, XMPP.org is a cool organization that tells everyone that it's cool.

Is it now?

404.city: first time I hear that.

Are we speaking of the same org?

Yeah, I don't think anyone has ever said *that* before

it's great how 404.city has switched from bashing to praising now.

It is problematic to create criteria, because the number of users can be faked. Different servers consider different the correctness of anything.

404.city: how is "number of users" a useful measure?

Ge0rG, The server can be bad with a large number of users. The counter can be made fake.

404.city: so you want to say it's a *bad* metric?

I'm not praising. I say that XMPP.ORG is the center of XMPP

Maybe it's not?

I'm the center of xmpp

MattJ, can we hand in the keys to daniel, now that he fully assumes it

Ge0rG, I can not find out how many users you have. You can say a million, but it's hard to verify. This is a non-indicative criterion. On many large servers, twist the IoT devices, it's not people at all.

Let's rename XMPP to the Conversation Protocol or somesuch.

404.city: what's your point?

Zash: and sell the Conversations™ trademark to Cisco.

YES!

Ge0rG, I already talked about this in a personal conversation two weeks ago. The list should be free or it should not be. XMPP.org is not a place for advertising.

404.city: you are misunderstanding the reason of existence of that page.

404.city: it's not advertising, it's to help new users get to speed quickly.

Ge0rG, Helps to get new users to your server

Don't ask what xmpp.org can do for you. Ask what you can do for xmpp.org

daniel: that's a good one.

Ge0rG, Your server is small, it does not even have 5000 users. He should not be on the big server list.

It's not a "big server" list

we've already established it's not a "big server list"

it's an "arbitrary server list"

that should probably be removed all together

If anything, it should be an "easy to get started with" list

404.city, people do not have to pay to be on the list, if that is what you mean by "free". If the XSF-involved volunteers who manage the website and this list agree to list something, it gets listed. It was not agreed to list your server (for now), so there is nothing to discuss about that, it was already raised to the Board, who agreed not to list it

I think the only valid question at this point is whether there should be a list at all

and if the Board has to make a decision on that too, so be it

Agree.

The Board meeting probably won't happen tomorrow, as at least 2, probably 3, members won't be there

Isn't there a working group that manages the website?

Separate from Board and Editor

Zash: do you mean iteam?

MattJ, I'm talking about this. I hope XMPP.org will be an unbiased Do not advertise individual servers.

MattJ: in case there is a board meeting and the question is brought up, I suggest going with Zash's random-choise-of-servers proposal, and to keep the list, minus disabled servers, until then.

By "free" I meant "open, freedome"

404.city, what does that mean in this case

in the last month, I had 410 visitors from the xmpp.org clients list and 56 visitors from the getting-started page.

Ge0rG, Why in this list should be your server, but should not be mine server. I also have many arguments, the worse, each of these servers of my server. You're interested in the list. You suggested not to add my server. You benefit from the fact that there were few servers on this list.

404.city, stop it already

404.city: I did not suggest not to add your server.

Because Ge0rG knows the right people. That's not fair. But nothing in life is

Deal with it

404.city: you are overestimating the impact of that page.

404.city: and your tone in this discussion (and in the last one, some weeks ago) does not instill confidence

Ge0rG, You suggested this, you say that you have 400 people more. It was in a discussion on which my server was not added. If I have more people than yours, you will agree to replace it with yours. I try to explain to everyone why this list is not needed.

This was fun until a few minutes ago

404.city: how many new users register on your server per day?

Ge0rG, ~10 - 50

404.city: as I said above, I had 56 page *visits* from the getting-started page. over a *month*

404.city: you wouldn't even notice

404.city: tell your users who complained that they need to learn reading

Ge0rG, Even one person is important to me

404.city: go on the street and convince people!

404.city: you are making a huge fuss about it. The time you've burned with this discussion could have been spent on fixing client and server bugs.

Ge0rG, This does not apply to the essence of the discussion.

We really need a way for servers to discover other servers, so that every server can present its own list to the user

404.city: turn it into a productive one. Provide a PR that pulls a JSON/XML from jabber.at and renders five randomly chosen servers.

Ge0rG, I can not do it. If I could, I would.

404.city: then find somebody.

I'm leaving now. BBL

Ge0rG, Have a nice day. Let the council decide what to do with this list, but I think that this list is not correct.

vanitasvitae, where would you use that?

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0309.html

vanitasvitae, pep. ↑

And there is already a way to do that, keep track of all s2s connections. Though one small deployment that reveals more or less contacts of your users

Zash, ah, the buddy thing?

Ah no that's just using it

So yeah, "just" need an implementation

Yeah I don't think getting a random list of domains and posting 5 of them on xmpp.org will do anyone any good

daniel, you'd remove the list?

I can see an argument for not having the list at all. But if we have one it should be a curated list

Which I recognize is hard to do

that's the thing, then you get the "It's biased!!" people screaming

Right. That's part of why it is 'hard to do'

We need a list of clients. No server list ✏

But you could have some hard criteria. Reasonable high uptime in the last 6 month, compliance, support contact available

And so forth

But that's obviously a lot of work

daniel, It's too much work, I agree. These criteria exist, but xmpp.org does not have a purpose to make server lists.

But anyway, if the XMPP public servers deployment scalated a lot, having a list would not be viable, I think. At list one that is somehow official. Most probably client developers could keep a list of well-known public servers themselves and use it on their clients.

404.city: then why do you care so much about being on it?

Because they work for the NSA

</random-theory>

I had the some thought

So it must be true

daniel, I have a goal to provide a server of the highest level. Not to be listed as a recommended xmpp.org server is disgraceful ✏