XSF Discussion - 2018-07-18

  1. rishiraj22 has left
  2. sezuan has left
  3. moparisthebest has left
  4. kasper.dement has joined
  5. kasper.dement has joined
  6. j.r has joined
  7. dos has left
  8. ta has joined
  9. j.r has joined
  10. anjan has joined
  11. SamWhited has left
  12. jere has left
  13. moparisthebest has joined
  14. kasper.dement has joined
  15. Ge0rG has joined
  16. kasper.dement has joined
  17. Dave Cridland has left
  18. la|r|ma has joined
  19. rishiraj22 has left
  20. anjan has left
  21. anjan has joined
  22. kasper.dement has left
  23. j.r has joined
  24. j.r has joined
  25. kasper.dement has joined
  26. rishiraj22 has left
  27. alacer has joined
  28. ta has joined
  29. kasper.dement has joined
  30. kasper.dement has joined
  31. lskdjf has joined
  32. j.r has joined
  33. j.r has joined
  34. alacer has left
  35. alacer has joined
  36. alacer has left
  37. alacer has joined
  38. Dave Cridland has left
  39. kasper.dement has joined
  40. Zash has left
  41. kasper.dement has joined
  42. alacer has left
  43. alacer has joined
  44. moparisthebest has joined
  45. Zash has left
  46. jere has joined
  47. kasper.dement has left
  48. j.r has joined
  49. j.r has joined
  50. moparisthebest has joined
  51. moparisthebest has joined
  52. rishiraj22 has left
  53. kasper.dement has joined
  54. alacer has left
  55. alacer has joined
  56. Zash has left
  57. Zash has left
  58. rishiraj22 has left
  59. kasper.dement has left
  60. jere has joined
  61. j.r has joined
  62. j.r has joined
  63. kasper.dement has joined
  64. efrit has left
  65. blabla has left
  66. blabla has joined
  67. Yagiza has joined
  68. moparisthebest has left
  69. moparisthebest has joined
  70. kasper.dement has joined
  71. rishiraj22 has left
  72. alacer has left
  73. alacer has joined
  74. kasper.dement has joined
  75. jubalh has joined
  76. j.r has joined
  77. moparisthebest has joined
  78. j.r has joined
  79. moparisthebest has joined
  80. kasper.dement has joined
  81. kasper.dement has joined
  82. Nekit has joined
  83. Ge0rG has joined
  84. kasper.dement has left
  85. waqas has left
  86. kasper.dement has joined
  87. j.r has joined
  88. Nekit has left
  89. Nekit has joined
  90. Yagiza has left
  91. j.r has joined
  92. ta has joined
  93. ta has joined
  94. SamWhited has left
  95. kasper.dement has left
  96. kasper.dement has joined
  97. waqas has joined
  98. j.r has joined
  99. kasper.dement has left
  100. moparisthebest has joined
  101. jubalh has left
  102. rishiraj22 has left
  103. rishiraj22 has joined
  104. moparisthebest has joined
  105. jubalh has joined
  106. intosi has joined
  107. intosi has left
  108. mrdoctorwho has left
  109. j.r has joined
  110. kasper.dement has joined
  111. alacer has left
  112. kasper.dement has joined
  113. rishiraj22 has left
  114. karp has left
  115. kasper.dement has joined
  116. jubalh has left
  117. j.r has joined
  118. Tobias has joined
  119. Tobias has joined
  120. ralphm has left
  121. Dave Cridland has left
  122. goffi has joined
  123. andy has joined
  124. Dave Cridland has left
  125. jubalh has joined
  126. kasper.dement has joined
  127. rion has joined
  128. j.r has joined
  129. rishiraj22 has left
  130. intosi has joined
  131. Dave Cridland has left
  132. labdsf has left
  133. kasper.dement has left
  134. rishiraj22 has joined
  135. lorddavidiii has left
  136. waqas has left
  137. Dave Cridland has left
  138. mrdoctorwho has joined
  139. j.r has joined
  140. ta has joined
  141. ta has joined
  142. anjan has left
  143. kasper.dement has joined
  144. jubalh has joined
  145. mikaela has joined
  146. waqas has joined
  147. kasper.dement has left
  148. Kev has left
  149. kasper.dement has joined
  150. ralphm has joined
  151. intosi has left
  152. intosi has joined
  153. labdsf has left
  154. Steve Kille has left
  155. kasper.dement has left
  156. rishiraj22 has left
  157. kasper.dement has joined
  158. intosi has left
  159. j.r has joined
  160. j.r has joined
  161. Steve Kille has joined
  162. rishiraj22 has left
  163. Steve Kille has left
  164. Steve Kille has joined
  165. kasper.dement has joined
  166. kasper.dement has joined
  167. goffi has left
  168. goffi has joined
  169. waqas has left
  170. kasper.dement has left
  171. labdsf has left
  172. Dave Cridland has left
  173. kasper.dement has joined
  174. rishiraj22 has left
  175. rishiraj22 has left
  176. lumi has joined
  177. labdsf has left
  178. alacer has joined
  179. j.r has joined
  180. Alex has joined
  181. kasper.dement has left
  182. kasper.dement has joined
  183. alacer has left
  184. labdsf has left
  185. ta has joined
  186. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  187. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  188. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  189. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  190. j.r has joined
  191. 404.city has joined
  192. kasper.dement has left
  193. rishiraj22 has left
  194. Dave Cridland has left
  195. Alex has left
  196. Zash has left
  197. lumi has left
  198. rishiraj22 has left
  199. ralphm has left
  200. ThibG has joined
  201. mrdoctorwho has left
  202. ThibG has joined
  203. ralphm has joined
  204. kasper.dement has joined
  205. j.r has joined
  206. blabla has left
  207. blabla has joined
  208. lnj has joined
  209. Zash has left
  210. j.r has joined
  211. alacer has joined
  212. Kev has left
  213. j.r has left
  214. j.r has joined
  215. rishiraj22 has left
  216. alacer has left
  217. muppeth has joined
  218. alacer has joined
  219. Dave Cridland has left
  220. j.r has left
  221. j.r has joined
  222. andy has left
  223. andy has joined
  224. j.r has joined
  225. j.r has joined
  226. muppeth has left
  227. muppeth has joined
  228. kasper.dement has joined
  229. j.r has joined
  230. j.r has joined
  231. ta has joined
  232. j.r has left
  233. j.r has joined
  234. Zash has left
  235. j.r has joined
  236. j.r has joined
  237. lorddavidiii has left
  238. kasper.dement has joined
  239. blabla has joined
  240. daniel has left
  241. daniel has joined
  242. tux has joined
  243. Guus has joined
  244. Guus has left
  245. Guus has joined
  246. Tobias has joined
  247. Tobias has joined
  248. ta has joined
  249. dos has joined
  250. rishiraj22 has left
  251. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  252. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  253. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  254. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  255. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  256. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  257. Guus has left
  258. Guus has joined
  259. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  260. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  261. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  262. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  263. blabla has joined
  264. jubalh has joined
  265. 404.city has left
  266. andy has left
  267. Nekit has joined
  268. rishiraj22 has left
  269. rishiraj22 has left
  270. rishiraj22 has left
  271. dos has left
  272. rishiraj22 has left
  273. la|r|ma has joined
  274. muppeth has left
  275. j.r has joined
  276. alacer has left
  277. alacer has joined
  278. kasper.dement has joined
  279. j.r has joined
  280. lskdjf has joined
  281. alacer has left
  282. alacer has joined
  283. kasper.dement has joined
  284. rishiraj22 has left
  285. dos has joined
  286. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  287. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  288. jere has joined
  289. muppeth has joined
  290. kasper.dement has joined
  291. kasper.dement has joined
  292. 404.city has joined
  293. Chobbes has joined
  294. Alex has joined
  295. kasper.dement has joined
  296. Chobbes has joined
  297. Guus has left
  298. Guus has joined
  299. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  300. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  301. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  302. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  303. dwd has joined
  304. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  305. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  306. marmistrz has left
  307. dos has left
  308. Yagiza has left
  309. lskdjf has joined
  310. Yagiza has joined
  311. goffi has left
  312. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  313. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  314. Yagiza has left
  315. andy has joined
  316. andy has left
  317. andy has joined
  318. jere has joined
  319. jere has joined
  320. vanitasvitae has left
  321. vanitasvitae has left
  322. Yagiza has joined
  323. Yagiza has left
  324. rishiraj22 has left
  325. goffi has joined
  326. Guus has left
  327. rishiraj22 has left
  328. daniel has left
  329. rishiraj22 has joined
  330. marmistrz has left
  331. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  332. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  333. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  334. pep. has left
  335. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  336. daniel has joined
  337. dos has joined
  338. Chobbes has joined
  339. vanitasvitae lnj: is there a rendered version of your ProtoXEP for file sharing notifications available somewhere?
  340. Ge0rG vanitasvitae: I think it was just a rough idea so far
  341. vanitasvitae Ge0rG, I found https://git.kaidan.im/snippets/3 and the author wrote in a mail, that he submitted the proposal to the editor, even though I cannot find an openend PR in xsf/xeps
  342. Zash You can submit something to the editor without github
  343. moparisthebest has joined
  344. vanitasvitae Zash, ah 😀
  345. jonasw vanitasvitae, it was submitted via email
  346. Valerian has joined
  347. jonasw will merge tomorrow pending IPR Policy agreement.
  348. vanitasvitae great 🙂
  349. rishiraj22 has left
  350. jonasw vanitasvitae, inofficial render: https://sotecware.net/files/noindex/xeps/fsn.html
  351. Valerian has left
  352. Valerian has joined
  353. vanitasvitae jonasw, thanks 🙂
  354. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  355. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  356. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  357. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  358. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  359. Valerian has left
  360. rishiraj22 has left
  361. rishiraj22 has left
  362. Alex has left
  363. lskdjf has left
  364. lskdjf has left
  365. lskdjf has left
  366. lnj has left
  367. alacer has left
  368. alacer has joined
  369. goffi has left
  370. j.r has joined
  371. nyco has joined
  372. Tobias has joined
  373. goffi has joined
  374. j.r has joined
  375. Tobias has joined
  376. Valerian has joined
  377. matlag has left
  378. lskdjf has joined
  379. Nekit has joined
  380. Tobias has joined
  381. marmistrz has left
  382. dos has left
  383. lskdjf has left
  384. lskdjf has left
  385. rishiraj22 has left
  386. lskdjf has left
  387. lskdjf has left
  388. lskdjf has left
  389. moparisthebest has joined
  390. intosi has left
  391. intosi has joined
  392. lskdjf has left
  393. dos has joined
  394. rishiraj22 has left
  395. moparisthebest has joined
  396. alacer has left
  397. alacer has joined
  398. Zash has left
  399. Tobias has joined
  400. Tobias has joined
  401. Yagiza has joined
  402. jere has joined
  403. Steve Kille has left
  404. mimi89999 has joined
  405. Steve Kille has joined
  406. Tobias has joined
  407. Valerian has left
  408. Valerian has joined
  409. ThibG has joined
  410. ThibG has joined
  411. lskdjf has left
  412. lskdjf has left
  413. Tobias has joined
  414. Valerian has left
  415. Valerian has joined
  416. j.r has joined
  417. lskdjf has left
  418. lskdjf has left
  419. lskdjf has left
  420. j.r has joined
  421. lskdjf has left
  422. Alex has left
  423. Tobias has joined
  424. Tobias has joined
  425. mikaela has left
  426. labdsf has left
  427. mikaela has joined
  428. ThibG has joined
  429. ThibG has joined
  430. lorddavidiii has left
  431. rishiraj22 has left
  432. Valerian has left
  433. Valerian has joined
  434. Valerian has left
  435. Valerian has joined
  436. Valerian has left
  437. Valerian has joined
  438. Valerian has left
  439. jere has joined
  440. nyco has left
  441. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  442. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  443. ta has joined
  444. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  445. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  446. andy has left
  447. Tobias has joined
  448. jere has left
  449. Tobias has joined
  450. jjrh has left
  451. jjrh has left
  452. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  453. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  454. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  455. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  456. rishiraj22 has left
  457. jere has joined
  458. jjrh has left
  459. ta has left
  460. lskdjf has left
  461. alacer has left
  462. alacer has joined
  463. lskdjf has left
  464. alacer has left
  465. alacer has joined
  466. labdsf has left
  467. rishiraj22 has left
  468. lskdjf has left
  469. jjrh has left
  470. lskdjf has left
  471. moparisthebest has joined
  472. jere has left
  473. alacer has left
  474. alacer has joined
  475. labdsf has left
  476. goffi has left
  477. peter has joined
  478. lskdjf has joined
  479. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  480. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  481. Valerian has joined
  482. jubalh has left
  483. jubalh has joined
  484. Dave Cridland has left
  485. lskdjf has left
  486. rishiraj22 has left
  487. waqas has joined
  488. rishiraj22 has left
  489. jere has joined
  490. j.r has joined
  491. kasper.dement has joined
  492. lskdjf has joined
  493. lskdjf has left
  494. dos has left
  495. dos has joined
  496. lskdjf has left
  497. jere has joined
  498. alacer has left
  499. j.r has joined
  500. Dave Cridland has left
  501. SamWhited has left
  502. SamWhited has left
  503. muppeth has left
  504. lovetox has joined
  505. Dave Cridland has left
  506. Dave Cridland has left
  507. mrdoctorwho has joined
  508. muppeth has joined
  509. Dave Cridland has left
  510. alacer has left
  511. Tobias has left
  512. Tobias has joined
  513. ThibG has left
  514. ThibG has joined
  515. kasper.dement has joined
  516. Nekit has left
  517. Nekit has joined
  518. kasper.dement has joined
  519. lskdjf has joined
  520. lskdjf has left
  521. SamWhited has left
  522. alacer has left
  523. kasper.dement has left
  524. lskdjf has joined
  525. rishiraj22 has left
  526. blabla has joined
  527. waqas has left
  528. alacer has left
  529. alacer has joined
  530. Dave Cridland has left
  531. lskdjf has left
  532. lskdjf has left
  533. lskdjf has left
  534. kasper.dement has joined
  535. Dave Cridland has left
  536. daniel has left
  537. jonasw has left
  538. lskdjf has left
  539. blabla has joined
  540. lskdjf has left
  541. anjan has joined
  542. lskdjf has left
  543. kasper.dement has left
  544. daniel has left
  545. rishiraj22 has left
  546. kasper.dement has joined
  547. Dave Cridland has left
  548. blabla has joined
  549. waqas has joined
  550. j.r has joined
  551. ralphm has left
  552. jere has joined
  553. Valerian has left
  554. SamWhited has left
  555. Valerian has joined
  556. ta has joined
  557. j.r has joined
  558. Dave Cridland has left
  559. kasper.dement has joined
  560. kasper.dement has joined
  561. lskdjf has joined
  562. marc has joined
  563. 404.city has left
  564. jubalh has left
  565. ralphm has joined
  566. kasper.dement has joined
  567. marmistrz has joined
  568. lskdjf has joined
  569. lskdjf has left
  570. rishiraj22 has left
  571. Steve Kille has left
  572. Steve Kille has left
  573. anjan has left
  574. jubalh has joined
  575. lskdjf has left
  576. Guus has joined
  577. Dave Cridland has left
  578. lskdjf has left
  579. Guus has left
  580. Steve Kille has joined
  581. Dave Cridland has left
  582. mikaela has left
  583. lskdjf has joined
  584. lskdjf has joined
  585. anjan has joined
  586. la|r|ma has left
  587. marmistrz has joined
  588. mikaela has joined
  589. marc has left
  590. vanitasvitae has left
  591. Steve Kille has left
  592. efrit has joined
  593. Dave Cridland has left
  594. blabla has joined
  595. Dave Cridland has left
  596. j.r has joined
  597. Bunneh has left
  598. Bunneh has joined
  599. valo has left
  600. valo has joined
  601. alacer has left
  602. alacer has joined
  603. labdsf has left
  604. la|r|ma has joined
  605. la|r|ma has joined
  606. Dave Cridland has left
  607. j.r has joined
  608. 404.city has joined
  609. Valerian has left
  610. Dave Cridland has left
  611. 404.city Edit rejected? https://github.com/xsf/xmpp.org/pull/454
  612. muppeth has joined
  613. muppeth has joined
  614. 404.city I suggest to remove superfluous servers and to construct strict criteria in the given list
  615. rishiraj22 has left
  616. 404.city Or remove all servers. It is unfair that XMPP loses a server of poor quality, and the rest throws out
  617. Valerian has joined
  618. Valerian has left
  619. 404.city This hurts the development of xmpp
  620. marc has joined
  621. 404.city In most of these servers, there is no registration via the xmpp client. In one of them there is no registration on the site. XEP support on all these servers is lousy.
  622. 404.city You kill hmpp by consulting these servers. I propose to remove everything and leave a link to the list of servers.
  623. Zash has left
  624. 404.city We kill XMPP by consulting these servers. I propose to remove everything and leave a link to the list of servers.
  625. 404.city We kill XMPP by recommending these servers. I propose to remove everything and leave a link to the list of servers.
  626. anjan has joined
  627. Dave Cridland has left
  628. moparisthebest it does seem insane to have a partial list of servers with no criteria to remove or add them
  629. moparisthebest ha so it links jabber.at to https://jabber.at/account/register/ which says "Registration deactivated Registration is currently deactivated. Please see the start page if there is any more information."
  630. moparisthebest should that stay on there? does that help people get started with XMPP does it?
  631. moparisthebest looks like registration has been closed since Jan 6th 2018
  632. Dave Cridland has left
  633. 404.city xmpp.jp - no support omemo http upload xmpp client registrations. Jabber.ru no support xmpp client registrations, http upload. jwchat.org - small server 900 user vs 740 - 404.city. jabber.at - no support all regisracion! cooooooll yaxim.org - small server 1200 user online , support web-regisrations!
  634. moparisthebest it should probably just not recommend servers at all, certainly that's less harmful than linking a bunch of dead ones?
  635. Dave Cridland has left
  636. rishiraj22 has left
  637. 404.city moparisthebest, I agree. It's not fair that people think that my server is bad, because it's no recommending on xmpp.org!
  638. moparisthebest I'm not saying your server is good or bad actually
  639. Guus has joined
  640. moparisthebest most servers aren't listed on xmpp.org, and obviously some that are are worthless because registration has been closed for half a year
  641. moparisthebest we should:
  642. Guus has left
  643. moparisthebest 1. have a criteria to add/remove servers
  644. moparisthebest 2. not list any servers
  645. moparisthebest pick one
  646. j.r has left
  647. j.r has joined
  648. efrit has left
  649. j.r has joined
  650. j.r has joined
  651. 404.city moparisthebest, I'm talking about the fact that there is no declarative criterion for selecting this list, so it must be deleted. My server will be more visited than two servers from this list, in half a year.
  652. Guus has joined
  653. j.r has joined
  654. pep. 404.city, help define the criteria
  655. Dave Cridland has left
  656. jubalh has left
  657. ralphm has left
  658. Ge0rG - server should have a well-known admin 😁
  659. blabla has joined
  660. pep. hah
  661. moparisthebest Ge0rG, what a stupid criteria...
  662. moparisthebest decentralized messaging!
  663. moparisthebest as long as a tiny group of XSF members knows you personally!
  664. 404.city pep., I believe that there should not be any limited list. Free choice.
  665. blabla has joined
  666. marmistrz has left
  667. pep. 404.city, might as well not put any list on that page then
  668. pep. I don't see how we can fit an unlimited list
  669. Ge0rG The list on the "getting started" page can't and shouldn't be the authoritative list of all public servers.
  670. Dave Cridland has left
  671. moparisthebest should it be a list of servers that don't support registration?
  672. Ge0rG It might be replaced by a link to such a list, but truth is that nobody has shown to be able to maintain it for long times. Also a list with thousands of entries doesn't make any sense
  673. 404.city Ge0rG, You use this list for advertising. Your server is small.
  674. Ge0rG I'd probably go with a list of medium size servers with good uptime and IBR enabled.
  675. 404.city Ge0rG, Your server should not be on this list.
  676. pep. 404.city, we're not fighting for who's got the biggest
  677. Zash 404.city: Yours should?
  678. Ge0rG 404.city: most of the users on my server come from the yaxim client.
  679. pep. we're not fighting at all
  680. Ge0rG 404.city: do you want to say that yaxim is just a way to advertise my server?
  681. 404.city A good uptime means that there are no system updates. System updates require a reboot.
  682. pep. 404.city, a good uptime doesn't mean no reboot at all
  683. Ge0rG Okay, let's fill the list with servers that have no uptime then.
  684. pep. It is a percentage, not a duration
  685. jubalh has joined
  686. SamWhited has left
  687. kasper.dement has joined
  688. moparisthebest I think we can all agree "supports registration" should be *a* criteria, can someone remove jabber.at ?
  689. pep. I think that's up to the board to agree
  690. Seve/SouL What I would do is have an external site saying something like `Community list of servers` or `Unofficial list of servers` where you accept all kind of servers with a minimum of uptime and maybe IBR enabled (free of spammers/admins that care about the server) and you find a form with, Country, most common language of the server and then get a list of the ones available.
  691. 404.city I think you need to leave only one link https://list.jabber.at/
  692. pep. Also users will certainly prefer servers closest to them, for latency
  693. labdsf has left
  694. moparisthebest does that matter in xmpp ? :/
  695. pep. latency?
  696. moparisthebest I don't think it does, it's not a first person shooter
  697. pep. I live with 300ms to my server, it does somewhat
  698. Seve/SouL 404.city, I didn't know about that list, thank you.
  699. 404.city pep yes
  700. pep. 404.city, so this fact alone kind of dismisses the idea of having a list on that page
  701. pep. Or maybe we should have per continent list :/
  702. jjrh has left
  703. jjrh has left
  704. Zash Or maybe the XSF shouldn't do this at all
  705. 404.city You need an honest list with all the servers and free choice.
  706. pep. Zash, I mostly agree with that
  707. moparisthebest yea I'm leaning that way Zash
  708. pep. JSF would do!
  709. peter ;-)
  710. pep. Jabber Sans Frontières
  711. moparisthebest a list of people that were buddies with XSF members 5 years ago seems like the absolute worst thing to do
  712. Zash IIRC someone said these kinds of lists eventually just attract people trying to use it for marketing
  713. Zash Including "XEP support" lists
  714. Seve/SouL I think is good to have a list, but it is clear that not like we have it now.
  715. marc has left
  716. moparisthebest who is jwchat.org / Mathias Ertl ?
  717. pep. I think it is pretty clear we should kill the list on this page
  718. Guus has left
  719. Zash Let other people make their own unofficial lists. Maybe we can have a list of lists.
  720. moparisthebest yea that would make more sense imho
  721. marc has joined
  722. 404.city pep., I support this idea, because people think that all the servers that are not on this list are bad.
  723. Guus has joined
  724. Seve/SouL First time I hear that, though.
  725. moparisthebest 404.city, I'm not so sure that's true, I've never even seen that list
  726. ThibG has joined
  727. pep. moparisthebest, I have seen it used multiple times in the past
  728. daniel Shit that history locks like I should grab some 🍿
  729. pep. daniel: I guess people are usually skewed towards conversations' list nowadays anyway ;p
  730. Guus has left
  731. Guus has joined
  732. pep. daniel: I guess people are mostly skewed towards conversations' list nowadays anyway ;p
  733. daniel Yeah that history was a bit more boring than I hoped
  734. Zash Prosodys list: 1. Run your own! ;)
  735. daniel I'm not really comfortable with being the list. I rather create the tools so other people can create lists
  736. kasper.dement has joined
  737. Zash daniel: Too late
  738. pep. yeah it's a bit late now
  739. daniel But yeah I guess my list is more useful in some ways than the one on xmpp.org
  740. dos has left
  741. rishiraj22 has left
  742. marc has left
  743. 404.city has left
  744. Ge0rG > Maybe we can have a list of lists. This is the opposite of the intention behind "getting started"
  745. Ge0rG Also the list of lists needs criteria on which to rate and compare the lists.
  746. pep. I'd prefer to having clients support IBR/PARS/whatever stuff and have users use that. Or have somebody invite them with the invite app thingy
  747. pep. I'd prefer to have clients support IBR/PARS/whatever stuff and have users use that. Or have somebody invite them with the invite app thingy
  748. Ge0rG pep.: me too. But people landing on the "getting started" page might need some help.
  749. Ge0rG maybe each client should have its own recommended server, so the user ends up with whatever is the default value
  750. Ge0rG ...and has to pay after 6 months.
  751. pep. :D
  752. pep. eyes around
  753. pep. Ge0rG, well tbh, that depends on the service.
  754. daniel > pep.: me too. But people landing on the "getting started" page might need some help. Is this is a relevant amount of people?
  755. pep. I'm paying for my own service
  756. daniel Is this a problem worth fixing
  757. Ge0rG daniel: ask iteam for web server stats?
  758. marc has joined
  759. daniel I certainly didn't go to xmpp.org when I started using jabber
  760. pep. I don't even remember
  761. daniel That website is pretty crappy for end users anyway
  762. daniel I don't think it shows up on Google very high
  763. Zash The purpose of the XSF is to govern the standards. Does this include things directed at end-users?
  764. daniel People just hear about jabber somewhere and that place usually just sends them to a client
  765. daniel Or anywhere but not to xmpp.org
  766. 404.city has joined
  767. Ge0rG because xmpp.org isn't even jabber.
  768. daniel Or people go to xmpp.org learn about how awesome it is being used to kill people and leave very confused
  769. Ge0rG Speaking of neutrality. My #2 google hit for "getting started with xmpp" is this: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Getting_Started > Welcome to the Getting Started Guide for the Tagarela Jabber Library
  770. alacer has left
  771. Ge0rG And I haven't ever heard of tagarela.
  772. Ge0rG > This page was last modified on 29 August 2005, at 04:01.
  773. Ge0rG I think this is an accurate representation of our situation.
  774. daniel > Open Macromedia Director
  775. daniel Ok
  776. Ge0rG it links to https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Shockwave_Lingo_Library
  777. pep. nice wiki page
  778. 404.city I suggest replacing the entire list with a link with a large number of servers https://list.jabber.at/ XMPP.org should be free, not a place to advertise individual servers.
  779. Ge0rG If nobody cries loudly, right now, I'll delete both those pages.
  780. daniel Well the good news is if you were to start an organization gear towards end users with same recommendations on how to get started you could probably Google bomb that existing wiki page out of existence very quickly
  781. pep. Ge0rG, please go ahead
  782. marmistrz has left
  783. Guus has left
  784. marmistrz has left
  785. Ge0rG 404.city: we try to put a square peg into a round hole: allow new users to quickly choose a server without overwhelming them with a full list, while maintaining neutrality
  786. Ge0rG and "plenty of choices" links to the jabber.at list
  787. Zash Ge0rG: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve_of_constant_width
  788. kasper.dement has joined
  789. Ge0rG Zash: now please complete the parable.
  790. 404.city Ge0rG, In fact, this page is advertised by individual servers. Big does not mean good. The page is misleading new users. They wrote to me that my dermo server, because it is not on this list.
  791. 404.city Ge0rG, In fact, this page is advertised by individual servers. Big does not mean good. The page is misleading new users. They wrote to me that my shit server, because it is not on this list.
  792. Ge0rG 404.city: your users obviously can't read.
  793. marc has left
  794. 404.city Ge0rG, New users go to XMPP and select the server from this list. They will never come to other servers. This page advertises individual servers. This is an unreleased server list
  795. Ge0rG 404.city: "As with e-mail, you'll need an account with a service provider. Again, there are plenty of choices, from which these are only a couple of the more popular ones:"
  796. Ge0rG 404.city: translate that for your users
  797. j.r has joined
  798. 404.city Ge0rG, Stop advertising your server yax.im and prevent others from adding.
  799. 404.city Your server is not popular. This list does not help new users.
  800. Ge0rG 404.city: how do you define "popular"?
  801. Ge0rG 404.city: all the things I'm talking about are generic, not related to yax.im or to your server.
  802. Ge0rG 404.city: you seem to be enraged because you think that page is advertising, and because your users complain you can't afford a placement :P
  803. Zash The list needs to be small to not be overwhelming for new users. What if it was managed like the client list, and then a random set of ~5 or so was picked when rendering?
  804. marc has joined
  805. Ge0rG Zash: please do so!
  806. marmistrz has left
  807. Zash Then the "list" can grow without anyone feeling excluded and without overwhelming readers
  808. 404.city Ge0rG, Then why is your server on this list?
  809. moparisthebest because of what he said before :)
  810. moparisthebest he knows XSF people with 'merge' powers
  811. Ge0rG moparisthebest: it's the other way around. Those people know me.
  812. jjrh has left
  813. Seve/SouL Guus stated that in the previous logs (the ones mentioned in the pull request).
  814. daniel #klüngel
  815. Ge0rG As was already mentioned by an editor, I'm a person known in the community for some years.
  816. 404.city Ge0rG, I do not know you. This is a non-indicative criterion. The List of servers is preconceived advertising
  817. Ge0rG daniel: bless you!
  818. MattJ 404.city, but you are not maintaining the list
  819. Ge0rG 404.city: nobody knows you. You didn't even provide your full name when signing my jabber spam fighting manifesto, which is a public letter of intent.
  820. 404.city Ge0rG, You place in this list hidden advertising of your server, forbidding you to add others.
  821. MattJ 404.city, now you're getting personal, and Ge0rG doesn't even maintain the list
  822. pep. Ge0rG, you are the source of all evil
  823. kasper.dement has joined
  824. moparisthebest MattJ, no one is maintaining the list, or jabber.at which hasn't supported registration for over 6 months wouldn't be on there, right?
  825. Ge0rG I tried to bribe an editor with beverages once, but had no success!
  826. Ge0rG moparisthebest: the list is maintained by sending PRs to github and convincing an editor.
  827. MattJ moparisthebest, for the record I'm not really keen on the XSF maintaining (or attempting to maintain) such a list
  828. Dave Cridland has left
  829. pep. I like Zash's idea
  830. pep. But I'm not saying that should be maintained bythe XSF
  831. Ge0rG moparisthebest: depending on the tone of the request and the author's reputation, changes get merged fast or never.
  832. moparisthebest MattJ, yep I agree, without a good criteria for maintaining which we clearly don't have, we shouldn't have *any* list
  833. Ge0rG I think that having a biased short list of working servers is better than having none
  834. 404.city I consider it necessary to redirect to a full list of servers, rather than recommend individual servers.
  835. daniel A full list?
  836. Ge0rG 404.city: There. Is. A. Link. To. A. Full. List!
  837. MattJ There have been many attempts at maintaining lists of servers before, and always they had problems (list.jabber.at was started because of dissatisfaction with the existing "official" list)
  838. daniel The last time I tried to create a full list of xmpp servers my ISP got mad
  839. pep. your ISP?
  840. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  841. 404.city Ge0rG, If your server were not on this list, you did not protect this server list.
  842. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  843. Ge0rG daniel: did you try to scan the internet?
  844. jjrh has left
  845. daniel Ge0rG: yah. Some isps don't like tagt
  846. daniel That
  847. pep. Isn't there a service for that already
  848. pep. scanning random ports on the internet
  849. pep. every so often
  850. Zash Shodan(?)?
  851. pep. maybe
  852. daniel Yeah. I wanted to learn
  853. 404.city Any list where anyone can add their server
  854. daniel And then tell a random anecdote
  855. Ge0rG 404.city: I got my server added a month ago, together with some other changes to the list. I wouldn't die immediately if it got removed again.
  856. Ge0rG 404.city: but it seems you would.
  857. Ge0rG 404.city: you are behaving like a little kid. Like that little kid with the yellow hair that's travelling the world and insulting everyone.
  858. 404.city Ge0rG, You are interested in this list, otherwise you would not have added your server there. It is pointless to deny the obvious.
  859. MattJ Ge0rG, now you're getting personal, please don't
  860. Ge0rG 404.city: I've had reasons to add my server to the list. One of the reasons is that I believe that my server is actually well-maintained.
  861. Ge0rG And I care about it working properly. And about fighting spam.
  862. pep. daniel, now you can get back to popcorn
  863. flow Ge0rG, yellow hair kid?
  864. pep. Ge0rG, admit it you had hidden motives when adding your server in the list!!
  865. Ge0rG flow: https://media4.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2018_29/2500386/180717-trump-blimp-london-njs-1025_ee8740bbf368ada52718e72af972a52e.fit-2000w.jpg
  866. flow I'd assume 404.city also believes that his server is well-maintained…
  867. mimi89999 has joined
  868. daniel But my server is weller maintained
  869. flow Ahh, if you had said "something something orange skin"…
  870. Ge0rG flow: I even believe that there are other people out here who believe that my server is well-maintained.
  871. pep. Believe all you want
  872. flow I want to belive
  873. 404.city daniel, You have the best support)
  874. Ge0rG I don't know how, but c.im always ends up with a 100% Conversations compliance rating
  875. Ge0rG nobody can compete with their cabal to make all xmpp users pay for c.im!
  876. 404.city Ge0rG, I also have
  877. daniel Our. Kerbal?
  878. Seve/SouL I'm with MattJ, just let's not continue this way and discuss about the list. A decision has to be taken and continue forward.
  879. Ge0rG can we just get the broken servers removed from that list please?
  880. Ge0rG daniel: you are biased as well! Your paid!1!$! client is on the getting-started client list!
  881. daniel It's not tho
  882. daniel I think
  883. Ge0rG daniel: #1 on https://xmpp.org/getting-started/
  884. Tobias has joined
  885. daniel Oh. It wasn't on that other list
  886. daniel Thank God for many lists
  887. 404.city I think all servers should be removed from this list and give only a link to a large list of servers.
  888. Zash That is not good
  889. Zash Choosing gets harder the longer the list is
  890. Zash Especially for a beginner who doesn't know what criteria to look for
  891. Ge0rG 404.city: people disagree with you.
  892. Dave Cridland has left
  893. 404.city Zash, But this is honest. XMPP.org is not a place for advertising. (Let's leave one server)
  894. pep. Zash, let's make that random thingy. One server per continent choosen among a long list of servers by a fair dice roll (<xkcd reference>)
  895. pep. Zash, let's make that random thingy. One server per continent choosen among a long list of servers by a fair dice roll ({xkcd 221})
  896. Bunneh https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/random_number.png
    Random Number
    Random Number
  897. daniel Ge0rG just wants to maintain the status quo. But the status is not quo
  898. Dave Cridland has left
  899. pep. The status is quoi
  900. Ge0rG daniel: I don't want to maintain a squaw!
  901. pep. The status quoi
  902. dos has joined
  903. moparisthebest I want to submit my server for xmpp.org too, it doesn't support registration either but it'll be in good company :) (joking)
  904. Zash xmpp.net tho
  905. 404.city There are unconditional server leaders in the number of users, but they are not always the best. Need a free list or explicit criteria
  906. Ge0rG 404.city: make your own list! with blackjack! and hookers!
  907. kasper.dement has joined
  908. pep. 404.city, make something with search criteria then? publish that on your website, and propose it for the XSF or whatever
  909. 404.city Ge0rG, XMPP.org is a cool organization that tells everyone that it's cool.
  910. Zash Is it now?
  911. Ge0rG 404.city: first time I hear that.
  912. Ge0rG Are we speaking of the same org?
  913. MattJ Yeah, I don't think anyone has ever said *that* before
  914. Ge0rG it's great how 404.city has switched from bashing to praising now.
  915. 404.city It is problematic to create criteria, because the number of users can be faked. Different servers consider different the correctness of anything.
  916. Ge0rG 404.city: how is "number of users" a useful measure?
  917. 404.city Ge0rG, The server can be bad with a large number of users. The counter can be made fake.
  918. Ge0rG 404.city: so you want to say it's a *bad* metric?
  919. 404.city I'm not praising. I say that XMPP.ORG is the center of XMPP
  920. Ge0rG Maybe it's not?
  921. blabla has joined
  922. daniel I'm the center of xmpp
  923. Dave Cridland has left
  924. Dave Cridland has left
  925. pep. MattJ, can we hand in the keys to daniel, now that he fully assumes it
  926. 404.city Ge0rG, I can not find out how many users you have. You can say a million, but it's hard to verify. This is a non-indicative criterion. On many large servers, twist the IoT devices, it's not people at all.
  927. Zash Let's rename XMPP to the Conversation Protocol or somesuch.
  928. Ge0rG 404.city: what's your point?
  929. Ge0rG Zash: and sell the Conversations™ trademark to Cisco.
  930. Zash YES!
  931. la|r|ma has left
  932. kasper.dement has joined
  933. 404.city Ge0rG, I already talked about this in a personal conversation two weeks ago. The list should be free or it should not be. XMPP.org is not a place for advertising.
  934. labdsf has left
  935. Ge0rG 404.city: you are misunderstanding the reason of existence of that page.
  936. Ge0rG 404.city: it's not advertising, it's to help new users get to speed quickly.
  937. Dave Cridland has left
  938. labdsf has left
  939. 404.city Ge0rG, Helps to get new users to your server
  940. daniel Don't ask what xmpp.org can do for you. Ask what you can do for xmpp.org
  941. Yagiza has left
  942. Ge0rG daniel: that's a good one.
  943. 404.city Ge0rG, Your server is small, it does not even have 5000 users. He should not be on the big server list.
  944. MattJ It's not a "big server" list
  945. moparisthebest we've already established it's not a "big server list"
  946. moparisthebest it's an "arbitrary server list"
  947. moparisthebest that should probably be removed all together
  948. Zash If anything, it should be an "easy to get started with" list
  949. MattJ 404.city, people do not have to pay to be on the list, if that is what you mean by "free". If the XSF-involved volunteers who manage the website and this list agree to list something, it gets listed. It was not agreed to list your server (for now), so there is nothing to discuss about that, it was already raised to the Board, who agreed not to list it
  950. MattJ I think the only valid question at this point is whether there should be a list at all
  951. Tobias has joined
  952. MattJ and if the Board has to make a decision on that too, so be it
  953. Seve/SouL Agree.
  954. rishiraj22 has left
  955. MattJ The Board meeting probably won't happen tomorrow, as at least 2, probably 3, members won't be there
  956. Zash Isn't there a working group that manages the website?
  957. Zash Separate from Board and Editor
  958. SamWhited has left
  959. Ge0rG Zash: do you mean iteam?
  960. la|r|ma has left
  961. waqas has left
  962. kasper.dement has joined
  963. la|r|ma has left
  964. anjan has joined
  965. 404.city MattJ, I'm talking about this. I hope XMPP.org will be an unbiased Do not advertise individual servers.
  966. Ge0rG MattJ: in case there is a board meeting and the question is brought up, I suggest going with Zash's random-choise-of-servers proposal, and to keep the list, minus disabled servers, until then.
  967. jubalh has left
  968. 404.city By "free" I meant "open, freedome"
  969. pep. 404.city, what does that mean in this case
  970. anjan has left
  971. j.r has joined
  972. Dave Cridland has left
  973. Ge0rG in the last month, I had 410 visitors from the xmpp.org clients list and 56 visitors from the getting-started page.
  974. 404.city Ge0rG, Why in this list should be your server, but should not be mine server. I also have many arguments, the worse, each of these servers of my server. You're interested in the list. You suggested not to add my server. You benefit from the fact that there were few servers on this list.
  975. pep. 404.city, stop it already
  976. Ge0rG 404.city: I did not suggest not to add your server.
  977. daniel Because Ge0rG knows the right people. That's not fair. But nothing in life is
  978. daniel Deal with it
  979. Ge0rG 404.city: you are overestimating the impact of that page.
  980. Dave Cridland has left
  981. Ge0rG 404.city: and your tone in this discussion (and in the last one, some weeks ago) does not instill confidence
  982. 404.city Ge0rG, You suggested this, you say that you have 400 people more. It was in a discussion on which my server was not added. If I have more people than yours, you will agree to replace it with yours. I try to explain to everyone why this list is not needed.
  983. pep. This was fun until a few minutes ago
  984. Valerian has joined
  985. Ge0rG 404.city: how many new users register on your server per day?
  986. jubalh has left
  987. 404.city Ge0rG, ~10 - 50
  988. Dave Cridland has left
  989. Ge0rG 404.city: as I said above, I had 56 page *visits* from the getting-started page. over a *month*
  990. Ge0rG 404.city: you wouldn't even notice
  991. Dave Cridland has left
  992. Ge0rG 404.city: tell your users who complained that they need to learn reading
  993. 404.city Ge0rG, Even one person is important to me
  994. rishiraj22 has left
  995. Ge0rG 404.city: go on the street and convince people!
  996. Dave Cridland has left
  997. Ge0rG 404.city: you are making a huge fuss about it. The time you've burned with this discussion could have been spent on fixing client and server bugs.
  998. 404.city Ge0rG, This does not apply to the essence of the discussion.
  999. vanitasvitae We really need a way for servers to discover other servers, so that every server can present its own list to the user
  1000. Ge0rG 404.city: turn it into a productive one. Provide a PR that pulls a JSON/XML from jabber.at and renders five randomly chosen servers.
  1001. Dave Cridland has left
  1002. 404.city Ge0rG, I can not do it. If I could, I would.
  1003. Ge0rG 404.city: then find somebody.
  1004. Tobias has joined
  1005. Ge0rG I'm leaving now. BBL
  1006. Dave Cridland has left
  1007. 404.city Ge0rG, Have a nice day. Let the council decide what to do with this list, but I think that this list is not correct.
  1008. pep. vanitasvitae, where would you use that?
  1009. kasper.dement has joined
  1010. kasper.dement has joined
  1011. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0309.html
  1012. Zash vanitasvitae, pep. ↑
  1013. pep. And there is already a way to do that, keep track of all s2s connections. Though one small deployment that reveals more or less contacts of your users
  1014. pep. Zash, ah, the buddy thing?
  1015. Valerian has left
  1016. Valerian has joined
  1017. pep. Ah no that's just using it
  1018. Guus has joined
  1019. pep. So yeah, "just" need an implementation
  1020. Guus has left
  1021. Valerian has left
  1022. Valerian has joined
  1023. daniel Yeah I don't think getting a random list of domains and posting 5 of them on xmpp.org will do anyone any good
  1024. Dave Cridland has left
  1025. pep. daniel, you'd remove the list?
  1026. daniel I can see an argument for not having the list at all. But if we have one it should be a curated list
  1027. Valerian has left
  1028. Valerian has joined
  1029. daniel Which I recognize is hard to do
  1030. pep. that's the thing, then you get the "It's biased!!" people screaming
  1031. goffi has joined
  1032. Valerian has left
  1033. daniel Right. That's part of why it is 'hard to do'
  1034. 404.city You need a list of clients. No server list
  1035. 404.city We need a list of clients. No server list
  1036. daniel But you could have some hard criteria. Reasonable high uptime in the last 6 month, compliance, support contact available
  1037. daniel And so forth
  1038. daniel But that's obviously a lot of work
  1039. Guus has joined
  1040. 404.city daniel, It's too much work, I agree. These criteria exist, but xmpp.org does not have a purpose to make server lists.
  1041. Seve/SouL But anyway, if the XMPP public servers deployment scalated a lot, having a list would not be viable, I think. At list one that is somehow official. Most probably client developers could keep a list of well-known public servers themselves and use it on their clients.
  1042. daniel 404.city: then why do you care so much about being on it?
  1043. kasper.dement has joined
  1044. MattJ Because they work for the NSA
  1045. Dave Cridland has left
  1046. MattJ </random-theory>
  1047. daniel I had the some thought
  1048. daniel So it must be true
  1049. rishiraj22 has left
  1050. Valerian has joined
  1051. blabla has joined
  1052. kasper.dement has joined
  1053. 404.city daniel, I have a goal to provide a server of the highest level. Not to be listed as a recommended XMPP server is disgraceful
  1054. 404.city daniel, I have a goal to provide a server of the highest level. Not to be listed as a recommended xmpp.org server is disgraceful
  1055. jjrh has left
  1056. pep. has left
  1057. la|r|ma has left
  1058. Tobias has joined
  1059. Ge0rG has left
  1060. Ge0rG has left
  1061. la|r|ma has left
  1062. kasper.dement has joined
  1063. la|r|ma has left
  1064. Ge0rG has left
  1065. la|r|ma has left
  1066. Dave Cridland has left
  1067. jubalh has joined
  1068. labdsf has left
  1069. labdsf has left
  1070. la|r|ma has left
  1071. la|r|ma has left
  1072. labdsf has left
  1073. Dave Cridland has left
  1074. pep. has joined
  1075. labdsf has left
  1076. Dave Cridland has left
  1077. la|r|ma has left
  1078. labdsf has left
  1079. la|r|ma has left
  1080. Dave Cridland has left
  1081. labdsf has left
  1082. la|r|ma has left
  1083. Dave Cridland has left
  1084. lskdjf has left
  1085. la|r|ma has left
  1086. la|r|ma has left
  1087. labdsf has left
  1088. kasper.dement has left
  1089. labdsf has left
  1090. labdsf has left
  1091. kasper.dement has joined
  1092. labdsf has left
  1093. labdsf has left
  1094. Dave Cridland has left
  1095. labdsf has left
  1096. lskdjf has joined
  1097. Guus has left
  1098. labdsf has left
  1099. Dave Cridland has left
  1100. labdsf has left
  1101. labdsf has left
  1102. Valerian has left
  1103. Valerian has joined
  1104. la|r|ma has joined
  1105. la|r|ma has left
  1106. labdsf has left
  1107. lumi has joined
  1108. labdsf has left
  1109. Guus has joined
  1110. Nekit has joined
  1111. Guus has left
  1112. labdsf has left
  1113. moparisthebest has joined
  1114. rishiraj22 has left
  1115. Valerian has left
  1116. labdsf has left
  1117. kasper.dement has joined
  1118. waqas has joined
  1119. labdsf has left
  1120. jubalh has joined
  1121. Dave Cridland has left
  1122. kasper.dement has joined
  1123. lskdjf has joined
  1124. lskdjf has left
  1125. lskdjf has joined
  1126. kasper.dement has left
  1127. tux has left
  1128. tux has joined
  1129. lskdjf has joined
  1130. Dave Cridland has left
  1131. kasper.dement has joined
  1132. labdsf has left
  1133. Dave Cridland has left
  1134. Dave Cridland has left
  1135. Dave Cridland has left
  1136. Dave Cridland has left
  1137. Dave Cridland has left
  1138. kasper.dement has left
  1139. kasper.dement has joined
  1140. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  1141. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  1142. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  1143. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  1144. kasper.dement has left
  1145. kasper.dement has joined
  1146. marc has left
  1147. Dave Cridland has left
  1148. kasper.dement has left
  1149. jere has joined
  1150. lskdjf has joined
  1151. rishiraj22 has left
  1152. j.r has joined
  1153. kasper.dement has joined
  1154. jubalh has joined
  1155. mikaela has left
  1156. lumi has joined
  1157. jubalh has left
  1158. la|r|ma has joined
  1159. j.r has left
  1160. j.r has joined
  1161. jjrh has left
  1162. j.r has left
  1163. j.r has joined
  1164. ralphm has joined
  1165. kasper.dement has left
  1166. jjrh has left
  1167. jjrh has left
  1168. kasper.dement has joined
  1169. daniel has left
  1170. Dave Cridland has left
  1171. la|r|ma has left
  1172. lskdjf has left
  1173. Dave Cridland has left
  1174. jere has joined
  1175. lskdjf has joined
  1176. lorddavidiii has left
  1177. jjrh has left
  1178. Andrew Nenakhov has left
  1179. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  1180. jubalh has joined
  1181. vanitasvitae has left
  1182. goffi has left
  1183. anjan has joined
  1184. peter has left
  1185. MattJ has joined
  1186. kasper.dement has joined
  1187. labdsf has left
  1188. SamWhited has left
  1189. peter has joined
  1190. peter has left
  1191. kasper.dement has joined
  1192. 404.city has left
  1193. j.r has joined
  1194. lnj has left
  1195. Zash has left
  1196. mimi89999 has joined
  1197. j.r has joined
  1198. rishiraj22 has left
  1199. jjrh has left
  1200. jjrh has left
  1201. jubalh has left
  1202. jjrh has left
  1203. jjrh has left
  1204. jjrh has left
  1205. jjrh has left
  1206. rion has left
  1207. jjrh has left
  1208. jjrh has left
  1209. jjrh has left
  1210. Dave Cridland has left
  1211. Dave Cridland has left
  1212. kasper.dement has joined
  1213. jjrh has left
  1214. kasper.dement has joined
  1215. jjrh has left
  1216. tux has left
  1217. tux has joined
  1218. jjrh has left
  1219. jjrh has left
  1220. Dave Cridland has left
  1221. jjrh has left
  1222. Dave Cridland has left
  1223. Dave Cridland has left
  1224. Dave Cridland has left
  1225. jjrh has left
  1226. Dave Cridland has left
  1227. Guus has joined
  1228. Guus has left
  1229. Dave Cridland has left
  1230. Dave Cridland has left