vanitasvitaelnj: is there a rendered version of your ProtoXEP for file sharing notifications available somewhere?
Ge0rGvanitasvitae: I think it was just a rough idea so far
vanitasvitaeGe0rG, I found https://git.kaidan.im/snippets/3 and the author wrote in a mail, that he submitted the proposal to the editor, even though I cannot find an openend PR in xsf/xeps
ZashYou can submit something to the editor without github
404.cityI suggest to remove superfluous servers and to construct strict criteria in the given list
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404.cityOr remove all servers. It is unfair that XMPP loses a server of poor quality, and the rest throws out
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404.cityThis hurts the development of xmpp
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404.cityIn most of these servers, there is no registration via the xmpp client. In one of them there is no registration on the site. XEP support on all these servers is lousy.
404.cityYou kill hmpp by consulting these servers. I propose to remove everything and leave a link to the list of servers.
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404.cityWe kill XMPP by consulting these servers. I propose to remove everything and leave a link to the list of servers.
404.cityWe kill XMPP by recommending these servers. I propose to remove everything and leave a link to the list of servers.
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moparisthebestit does seem insane to have a partial list of servers with no criteria to remove or add them
moparisthebestha so it links jabber.at to https://jabber.at/account/register/ which says "Registration deactivated Registration is currently deactivated. Please see the start page if there is any more information."
moparisthebestshould that stay on there? does that help people get started with XMPP does it?
moparisthebestlooks like registration has been closed since Jan 6th 2018
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404.cityxmpp.jp - no support omemo http upload xmpp client registrations. Jabber.ru no support xmpp client registrations, http upload. jwchat.org - small server 900 user vs 740 - 404.city. jabber.at - no support all regisracion! cooooooll yaxim.org - small server 1200 user online , support web-regisrations!
moparisthebestit should probably just not recommend servers at all, certainly that's less harmful than linking a bunch of dead ones?
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404.citymoparisthebest, I agree. It's not fair that people think that my server is bad, because it's no recommending on xmpp.org!
moparisthebestI'm not saying your server is good or bad actually
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moparisthebestmost servers aren't listed on xmpp.org, and obviously some that are are worthless because registration has been closed for half a year
moparisthebestwe should:
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moparisthebest1. have a criteria to add/remove servers
moparisthebest2. not list any servers
moparisthebestpick one
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404.citymoparisthebest, I'm talking about the fact that there is no declarative criterion for selecting this list, so it must be deleted. My server will be more visited than two servers from this list, in half a year.
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pep.404.city, help define the criteria
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Ge0rG- server should have a well-known admin 😁
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pep.hah
moparisthebestGe0rG, what a stupid criteria...
moparisthebestdecentralized messaging!
moparisthebestas long as a tiny group of XSF members knows you personally!
404.citypep., I believe that there should not be any limited list. Free choice.
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pep.404.city, might as well not put any list on that page then
pep.I don't see how we can fit an unlimited list
Ge0rGThe list on the "getting started" page can't and shouldn't be the authoritative list of all public servers.
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moparisthebestshould it be a list of servers that don't support registration?
Ge0rGIt might be replaced by a link to such a list, but truth is that nobody has shown to be able to maintain it for long times. Also a list with thousands of entries doesn't make any sense
404.cityGe0rG, You use this list for advertising. Your server is small.
Ge0rGI'd probably go with a list of medium size servers with good uptime and IBR enabled.
404.cityGe0rG, Your server should not be on this list.
pep.404.city, we're not fighting for who's got the biggest
Zash404.city: Yours should?
Ge0rG404.city: most of the users on my server come from the yaxim client.
pep.we're not fighting at all
Ge0rG404.city: do you want to say that yaxim is just a way to advertise my server?
404.cityA good uptime means that there are no system updates. System updates require a reboot.
pep.404.city, a good uptime doesn't mean no reboot at all
Ge0rGOkay, let's fill the list with servers that have no uptime then.
pep.It is a percentage, not a duration
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moparisthebestI think we can all agree "supports registration" should be *a* criteria, can someone remove jabber.at ?
pep.I think that's up to the board to agree
Seve/SouLWhat I would do is have an external site saying something like `Community list of servers` or `Unofficial list of servers` where you accept all kind of servers with a minimum of uptime and maybe IBR enabled (free of spammers/admins that care about the server) and you find a form with, Country, most common language of the server and then get a list of the ones available.
404.cityI think you need to leave only one link https://list.jabber.at/
pep.Also users will certainly prefer servers closest to them, for latency
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moparisthebestdoes that matter in xmpp ? :/
pep.latency?
moparisthebestI don't think it does, it's not a first person shooter
pep.I live with 300ms to my server, it does somewhat
Seve/SouL404.city, I didn't know about that list, thank you.
404.citypep yes
pep.404.city, so this fact alone kind of dismisses the idea of having a list on that page
pep.Or maybe we should have per continent list :/
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ZashOr maybe the XSF shouldn't do this at all
404.cityYou need an honest list with all the servers and free choice.
pep.Zash, I mostly agree with that
moparisthebestyea I'm leaning that way Zash
pep.JSF would do!
peter;-)
pep.Jabber Sans Frontières
moparisthebesta list of people that were buddies with XSF members 5 years ago seems like the absolute worst thing to do
ZashIIRC someone said these kinds of lists eventually just attract people trying to use it for marketing
ZashIncluding "XEP support" lists
Seve/SouLI think is good to have a list, but it is clear that not like we have it now.
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moparisthebestwho is jwchat.org / Mathias Ertl ?
pep.I think it is pretty clear we should kill the list on this page
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ZashLet other people make their own unofficial lists. Maybe we can have a list of lists.
moparisthebestyea that would make more sense imho
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404.citypep., I support this idea, because people think that all the servers that are not on this list are bad.
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Seve/SouLFirst time I hear that, though.
moparisthebest404.city, I'm not so sure that's true, I've never even seen that list
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pep.moparisthebest, I have seen it used multiple times in the past
danielShit that history locks like I should grab some 🍿
pep.daniel: I guess people are usually skewed towards conversations' list nowadays anyway ;p
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pep.daniel: I guess people are mostly skewed towards conversations' list nowadays anyway ;p
danielYeah that history was a bit more boring than I hoped
ZashProsodys list:
1. Run your own! ;)
danielI'm not really comfortable with being the list. I rather create the tools so other people can create lists
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Zashdaniel: Too late
pep.yeah it's a bit late now
danielBut yeah I guess my list is more useful in some ways than the one on xmpp.org
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Ge0rG> Maybe we can have a list of lists.
This is the opposite of the intention behind "getting started"
Ge0rGAlso the list of lists needs criteria on which to rate and compare the lists.
pep.I'd prefer to having clients support IBR/PARS/whatever stuff and have users use that. Or have somebody invite them with the invite app thingy
pep.I'd prefer to have clients support IBR/PARS/whatever stuff and have users use that. Or have somebody invite them with the invite app thingy
Ge0rGpep.: me too. But people landing on the "getting started" page might need some help.
Ge0rGmaybe each client should have its own recommended server, so the user ends up with whatever is the default value
Ge0rG...and has to pay after 6 months.
pep.:D
pep.eyes around
pep.Ge0rG, well tbh, that depends on the service.
daniel> pep.: me too. But people landing on the "getting started" page might need some help.
Is this is a relevant amount of people?
pep.I'm paying for my own service
danielIs this a problem worth fixing
Ge0rGdaniel: ask iteam for web server stats?
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danielI certainly didn't go to xmpp.org when I started using jabber
pep.I don't even remember
danielThat website is pretty crappy for end users anyway
danielI don't think it shows up on Google very high
ZashThe purpose of the XSF is to govern the standards. Does this include things directed at end-users?
danielPeople just hear about jabber somewhere and that place usually just sends them to a client
danielOr anywhere but not to xmpp.org
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Ge0rGbecause xmpp.org isn't even jabber.
danielOr people go to xmpp.org learn about how awesome it is being used to kill people and leave very confused
Ge0rGSpeaking of neutrality. My #2 google hit for "getting started with xmpp" is this: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Getting_Started
> Welcome to the Getting Started Guide for the Tagarela Jabber Library
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Ge0rGAnd I haven't ever heard of tagarela.
Ge0rG> This page was last modified on 29 August 2005, at 04:01.
Ge0rGI think this is an accurate representation of our situation.
daniel> Open Macromedia Director
danielOk
Ge0rGit links to https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Shockwave_Lingo_Library
pep.nice wiki page
404.cityI suggest replacing the entire list with a link with a large number of servers https://list.jabber.at/ XMPP.org should be free, not a place to advertise individual servers.
Ge0rGIf nobody cries loudly, right now, I'll delete both those pages.
danielWell the good news is if you were to start an organization gear towards end users with same recommendations on how to get started you could probably Google bomb that existing wiki page out of existence very quickly
pep.Ge0rG, please go ahead
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Ge0rG404.city: we try to put a square peg into a round hole: allow new users to quickly choose a server without overwhelming them with a full list, while maintaining neutrality
Ge0rGand "plenty of choices" links to the jabber.at list
404.cityGe0rG, In fact, this page is advertised by individual servers. Big does not mean good. The page is misleading new users. They wrote to me that my dermo server, because it is not on this list.
404.cityGe0rG, In fact, this page is advertised by individual servers. Big does not mean good. The page is misleading new users. They wrote to me that my shit server, because it is not on this list.
Ge0rG404.city: your users obviously can't read.
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404.cityGe0rG, New users go to XMPP and select the server from this list. They will never come to other servers. This page advertises individual servers. This is an unreleased server list
Ge0rG404.city: "As with e-mail, you'll need an account with a service provider. Again, there are plenty of choices, from which these are only a couple of the more popular ones:"
Ge0rG404.city: translate that for your users
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404.cityGe0rG, Stop advertising your server yax.im and prevent others from adding.
404.cityYour server is not popular. This list does not help new users.
Ge0rG404.city: how do you define "popular"?
Ge0rG404.city: all the things I'm talking about are generic, not related to yax.im or to your server.
Ge0rG404.city: you seem to be enraged because you think that page is advertising, and because your users complain you can't afford a placement :P
ZashThe list needs to be small to not be overwhelming for new users. What if it was managed like the client list, and then a random set of ~5 or so was picked when rendering?
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Ge0rGZash: please do so!
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ZashThen the "list" can grow without anyone feeling excluded and without overwhelming readers
404.cityGe0rG, Then why is your server on this list?
moparisthebestbecause of what he said before :)
moparisthebesthe knows XSF people with 'merge' powers
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: it's the other way around. Those people know me.
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Seve/SouLGuus stated that in the previous logs (the ones mentioned in the pull request).
daniel#klüngel
Ge0rGAs was already mentioned by an editor, I'm a person known in the community for some years.
404.cityGe0rG, I do not know you. This is a non-indicative criterion. The List of servers is preconceived advertising
Ge0rGdaniel: bless you!
MattJ404.city, but you are not maintaining the list
Ge0rG404.city: nobody knows you. You didn't even provide your full name when signing my jabber spam fighting manifesto, which is a public letter of intent.
404.cityGe0rG, You place in this list hidden advertising of your server, forbidding you to add others.
MattJ404.city, now you're getting personal, and Ge0rG doesn't even maintain the list
pep.Ge0rG, you are the source of all evil
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moparisthebestMattJ, no one is maintaining the list, or jabber.at which hasn't supported registration for over 6 months wouldn't be on there, right?
Ge0rGI tried to bribe an editor with beverages once, but had no success!
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: the list is maintained by sending PRs to github and convincing an editor.
MattJmoparisthebest, for the record I'm not really keen on the XSF maintaining (or attempting to maintain) such a list
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pep.I like Zash's idea
pep.But I'm not saying that should be maintained bythe XSF
Ge0rGmoparisthebest: depending on the tone of the request and the author's reputation, changes get merged fast or never.
moparisthebestMattJ, yep I agree, without a good criteria for maintaining which we clearly don't have, we shouldn't have *any* list
Ge0rGI think that having a biased short list of working servers is better than having none
404.cityI consider it necessary to redirect to a full list of servers, rather than recommend individual servers.
danielA full list?
Ge0rG404.city: There. Is. A. Link. To. A. Full. List!
MattJThere have been many attempts at maintaining lists of servers before, and always they had problems (list.jabber.at was started because of dissatisfaction with the existing "official" list)
danielThe last time I tried to create a full list of xmpp servers my ISP got mad
pep.your ISP?
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404.cityGe0rG, If your server were not on this list, you did not protect this server list.
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Ge0rGdaniel: did you try to scan the internet?
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danielGe0rG: yah. Some isps don't like tagt
danielThat
pep.Isn't there a service for that already
pep.scanning random ports on the internet
pep.every so often
ZashShodan(?)?
pep.maybe
danielYeah. I wanted to learn
404.cityAny list where anyone can add their server
danielAnd then tell a random anecdote
Ge0rG404.city: I got my server added a month ago, together with some other changes to the list. I wouldn't die immediately if it got removed again.
Ge0rG404.city: but it seems you would.
Ge0rG404.city: you are behaving like a little kid. Like that little kid with the yellow hair that's travelling the world and insulting everyone.
404.cityGe0rG, You are interested in this list, otherwise you would not have added your server there. It is pointless to deny the obvious.
MattJGe0rG, now you're getting personal, please don't
Ge0rG404.city: I've had reasons to add my server to the list. One of the reasons is that I believe that my server is actually well-maintained.
Ge0rGAnd I care about it working properly. And about fighting spam.
pep.daniel, now you can get back to popcorn
flowGe0rG, yellow hair kid?
pep.Ge0rG, admit it you had hidden motives when adding your server in the list!!
danielGe0rG just wants to maintain the status quo. But the status is not quo
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pep.The status is quoi
Ge0rGdaniel: I don't want to maintain a squaw!
pep.The status quoi
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moparisthebestI want to submit my server for xmpp.org too, it doesn't support registration either but it'll be in good company :) (joking)
Zashxmpp.net tho
404.cityThere are unconditional server leaders in the number of users, but they are not always the best. Need a free list or explicit criteria
Ge0rG404.city: make your own list! with blackjack! and hookers!
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pep.404.city, make something with search criteria then? publish that on your website, and propose it for the XSF or whatever
404.cityGe0rG, XMPP.org is a cool organization that tells everyone that it's cool.
ZashIs it now?
Ge0rG404.city: first time I hear that.
Ge0rGAre we speaking of the same org?
MattJYeah, I don't think anyone has ever said *that* before
Ge0rGit's great how 404.city has switched from bashing to praising now.
404.cityIt is problematic to create criteria, because the number of users can be faked. Different servers consider different the correctness of anything.
Ge0rG404.city: how is "number of users" a useful measure?
404.cityGe0rG, The server can be bad with a large number of users. The counter can be made fake.
Ge0rG404.city: so you want to say it's a *bad* metric?
404.cityI'm not praising. I say that XMPP.ORG is the center of XMPP
Ge0rGMaybe it's not?
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danielI'm the center of xmpp
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pep.MattJ, can we hand in the keys to daniel, now that he fully assumes it
404.cityGe0rG, I can not find out how many users you have. You can say a million, but it's hard to verify. This is a non-indicative criterion. On many large servers, twist the IoT devices, it's not people at all.
ZashLet's rename XMPP to the Conversation Protocol or somesuch.
Ge0rG404.city: what's your point?
Ge0rGZash: and sell the Conversations™ trademark to Cisco.
ZashYES!
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404.cityGe0rG, I already talked about this in a personal conversation two weeks ago. The list should be free or it should not be. XMPP.org is not a place for advertising.
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Ge0rG404.city: you are misunderstanding the reason of existence of that page.
Ge0rG404.city: it's not advertising, it's to help new users get to speed quickly.
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404.cityGe0rG, Helps to get new users to your server
danielDon't ask what xmpp.org can do for you. Ask what you can do for xmpp.org
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Ge0rGdaniel: that's a good one.
404.cityGe0rG, Your server is small, it does not even have 5000 users. He should not be on the big server list.
MattJIt's not a "big server" list
moparisthebestwe've already established it's not a "big server list"
moparisthebestit's an "arbitrary server list"
moparisthebestthat should probably be removed all together
ZashIf anything, it should be an "easy to get started with" list
MattJ404.city, people do not have to pay to be on the list, if that is what you mean by "free". If the XSF-involved volunteers who manage the website and this list agree to list something, it gets listed. It was not agreed to list your server (for now), so there is nothing to discuss about that, it was already raised to the Board, who agreed not to list it
MattJI think the only valid question at this point is whether there should be a list at all
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MattJand if the Board has to make a decision on that too, so be it
Seve/SouLAgree.
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MattJThe Board meeting probably won't happen tomorrow, as at least 2, probably 3, members won't be there
ZashIsn't there a working group that manages the website?
ZashSeparate from Board and Editor
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Ge0rGZash: do you mean iteam?
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404.cityMattJ, I'm talking about this. I hope XMPP.org will be an unbiased Do not advertise individual servers.
Ge0rGMattJ: in case there is a board meeting and the question is brought up, I suggest going with Zash's random-choise-of-servers proposal, and to keep the list, minus disabled servers, until then.
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404.cityBy "free" I meant "open, freedome"
pep.404.city, what does that mean in this case
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Ge0rGin the last month, I had 410 visitors from the xmpp.org clients list and 56 visitors from the getting-started page.
404.cityGe0rG, Why in this list should be your server, but should not be mine server. I also have many arguments, the worse, each of these servers of my server. You're interested in the list. You suggested not to add my server. You benefit from the fact that there were few servers on this list.
pep.404.city, stop it already
Ge0rG404.city: I did not suggest not to add your server.
danielBecause Ge0rG knows the right people. That's not fair. But nothing in life is
danielDeal with it
Ge0rG404.city: you are overestimating the impact of that page.
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Ge0rG404.city: and your tone in this discussion (and in the last one, some weeks ago) does not instill confidence
404.cityGe0rG, You suggested this, you say that you have 400 people more. It was in a discussion on which my server was not added. If I have more people than yours, you will agree to replace it with yours. I try to explain to everyone why this list is not needed.
pep.This was fun until a few minutes ago
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Ge0rG404.city: how many new users register on your server per day?
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404.cityGe0rG, ~10 - 50
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Ge0rG404.city: as I said above, I had 56 page *visits* from the getting-started page. over a *month*
Ge0rG404.city: you wouldn't even notice
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Ge0rG404.city: tell your users who complained that they need to learn reading
404.cityGe0rG, Even one person is important to me
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Ge0rG404.city: go on the street and convince people!
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Ge0rG404.city: you are making a huge fuss about it. The time you've burned with this discussion could have been spent on fixing client and server bugs.
404.cityGe0rG, This does not apply to the essence of the discussion.
vanitasvitaeWe really need a way for servers to discover other servers, so that every server can present its own list to the user
Ge0rG404.city: turn it into a productive one. Provide a PR that pulls a JSON/XML from jabber.at and renders five randomly chosen servers.
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404.cityGe0rG, I can not do it. If I could, I would.
Ge0rG404.city: then find somebody.
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Ge0rGI'm leaving now. BBL
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404.cityGe0rG, Have a nice day. Let the council decide what to do with this list, but I think that this list is not correct.
pep.vanitasvitae, where would you use that?
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Zashhttps://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0309.html
Zashvanitasvitae, pep. ↑
pep.And there is already a way to do that, keep track of all s2s connections. Though one small deployment that reveals more or less contacts of your users
pep.Zash, ah, the buddy thing?
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pep.Ah no that's just using it
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pep.So yeah, "just" need an implementation
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danielYeah I don't think getting a random list of domains and posting 5 of them on xmpp.org will do anyone any good
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pep.daniel, you'd remove the list?
danielI can see an argument for not having the list at all. But if we have one it should be a curated list
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danielWhich I recognize is hard to do
pep.that's the thing, then you get the "It's biased!!" people screaming
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danielRight. That's part of why it is 'hard to do'
404.cityYou need a list of clients. No server list
404.cityWe need a list of clients. No server list
danielBut you could have some hard criteria. Reasonable high uptime in the last 6 month, compliance, support contact available
danielAnd so forth
danielBut that's obviously a lot of work
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404.citydaniel, It's too much work, I agree. These criteria exist, but xmpp.org does not have a purpose to make server lists.
Seve/SouLBut anyway, if the XMPP public servers deployment scalated a lot, having a list would not be viable, I think. At list one that is somehow official. Most probably client developers could keep a list of well-known public servers themselves and use it on their clients.
daniel404.city: then why do you care so much about being on it?
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MattJBecause they work for the NSA
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MattJ</random-theory>
danielI had the some thought
danielSo it must be true
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404.citydaniel, I have a goal to provide a server of the highest level. Not to be listed as a recommended XMPP server is disgraceful
404.citydaniel, I have a goal to provide a server of the highest level. Not to be listed as a recommended xmpp.org server is disgraceful
XSF Discussion - 2018-07-18