XSF Discussion - 2018-07-23

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  168. Ge0rG Link Mauve: sorry for blaming you yesterday. You were not at fault. It was an obscure bug in smack3's handling of unknown stanzas.
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  187. Link Mauve Ge0rG, no problem. ^^
  188. Link Mauve I was surprised because I wrote these modules very defensively.
  189. Ge0rG Who could have expected that `parseIQ()` returns the parsed IQ for most cases, except for a GET or SET with unknown payload, where it just injects a not-implemented response and returns null.
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  192. jonasw s/smacks3/smacks4/?
  193. Ge0rG no idea how smack4 does it
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  289. flow Smack 3 has no support for stream management, I assume we are talking about a patch someone put on top of a Smack 3 codebase
  290. Ge0rG flow: yes, a patch that's using Connection.addPacketListener() to keep track of stanzas.
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  305. flow Ge0rG, let me know if you ever want to switch to a recent release of smack and need help
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  308. jonasw I think both of that is the case :)
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  311. Ge0rG flow: I'm grateful that you took the time to integrate smack4 back then, and I'm sorry that it happened on an oldish branch and I never managed to forward-port it.
  312. Ge0rG flow: I really want to switch to most recent smack4, and I don't have illusions about the required effort.
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  338. Guus o/
  339. jonasw Guus ^_^
  340. MattJ \o
  341. Guus I'd like to do some interop testing
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  343. jonasw can offer a client
  344. Guus does someone has a server available that does S2S over DirectTLS?
  345. jonasw can’t offer that
  346. Guus is sad
  347. jonasw metre might be able to do such a thing
  348. Holger Guus: conversations.im
  349. jonasw .oO(S2S over DirectX)
  350. jonasw .oO(S2S over DirectPlay)
  351. Guus snap out of it! 😃
  352. Guus thanks Holger
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  354. Ge0rG Guus: I have mod_net_multiplex loaded on xmpp.yaxim.org:443, but IIRC not in the SRV records.
  355. Guus Thanks Ge0rG. I was just checking for SRV records on conversations.im 🙂
  356. Holger Ge0rG: That way you can do TLS-on-connect for s2s connections?
  357. Ge0rG Holger: I hope so
  358. jonasw itym you wish
  359. Ge0rG Somebody could attempt an s2s handshake there.
  360. MattJ I don't see why it wouldn't work
  361. jonasw if I only knew the xmlstream namespace by heart
  362. Holger MattJ: Well it won't teach Prosody to do XMPPS for outgoing connections, will it?
  363. MattJ No, not for outgoing
  364. Holger MattJ: For incoming connections, EXTERNAL auth and/or Dialback will be fine?
  365. MattJ Yes?
  366. Holger Nice :-)
  367. jonasw Ge0rG, appears to work
  368. jonasw SENT: <stream:stream xmlns='jabber:server' xmlns:stream='http://etherx.jabber.org/streams' version='1.0' to='yax.im'> RECV: <?xml version='1.0'?><stream:stream xmlns:db='jabber:server:dialback' xmlns:stream='http://etherx.jabber.org/streams' xml:lang='en' from='yax.im' id='b63d1089-0aa0-4bd4-b5b4-4deb3efe83e2' to='' version='1.0' xmlns='jabber:server'><stream:features><dialback xmlns='urn:xmpp:features:dialback'/></stream:features> SENT: <stream:error><undefined-condition xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-streams'/><text xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-streams'>no</text></stream:error> RECV: </stream:stream>
  369. jonasw even without xml header :-X
  370. MattJ The XML header isn't mandatory
  371. Dave Cridland Guus, dave.cridland.net should have XEP-0368 on inbound and outbound, and use the right SRV records.
  372. Guus Dave, excellent, as you might be the one reviewing this new Openfire code 🙂
  373. Dave Cridland Guus, If you want to set up your own test, then it's just Metre, and I can help you figure out a config file to let you ping Metre on its own.
  374. Guus Thanks, maybe later Dave. Right now, I'd like to see if I can test this without adding another new component to the mix
  375. Guus also, crappy camping wifi /me raises fist
  376. Guus Dave, we miss you in open_chat, by the way
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  378. MattJ Pft, I just got back from a camping trip with no wifi and no phone signal
  379. Guus "In my day, we rocket-jumped to school and back!"
  380. Guus well, failure on both ends 😞
  381. Guus but I'm still using a self-signed cert, that probably doesn't help
  382. Guus does the Let'sEncrypt dance
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  402. Guus right, using a proper certificate made all the difference. I think that directTLS from Openfire to dave.cridland.net and conversations.im is now working.
  403. Guus If someone would be willing to shoot some (direct TLS) s2s tests at goodbytes.nl, I'd be grateful.
  404. Dave Cridland Guus, It looks like movim.eu is also using XEP-0368 - unless I can't read my own logs.
  405. Guus No SRV record found for: _xmpps-server._tcp.movim.eu.
  406. Dave Cridland Guus, Yeah, but it seems to use it to me. Maybe.
  407. Guus that's entirely possible
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  409. Guus for the record, I've disabled the lookup of _xmpp-server on goodbytes.nl, to force _xmpps-server lookups for the purpose of this test.
  410. Dave Cridland Guus, I found one tricky bit was to combine the two SRV lookups into a single one for the purposes of the SRV selection algorithm neatly.
  411. intosi Guus: why is it offering starttls when you connect on port 5270?
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  413. Guus Dave, why not do two SRV lookups and combine the results manually?
  414. Guus intosi: because the code is a mess and I didn't add a proper condition there, most likely.
  415. intosi Fair enough.
  416. Guus Openfire's S2S code is using the pre-Java NIO blocking way of doing things. We've ment to replace it ages ago, but it continues to survive. Now this is bolted on
  417. Guus it's not pretty...
  418. intosi Old code doing things that aren't pretty, a fate not unique to your code ;)
  419. Guus I think I fixed it. I'll redeploy
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  421. intosi Grand :)
  422. Guus intosi, mind trying again?
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  424. Guus linkmauve, Openfire thinks it's funny that your cert chain contains multiple certs with identical IssuerDN's
  425. intosi Looks good to me, thanks!
  426. Link Mauve Guus, check.messaging.one too.
  427. Guus thanks guys
  428. Guus Link Mauve, I _think_ that the reason for Openfire to complain about this is that it tries to recreate the chain (matching subject and issuer of individual chains). That works around a problem where chains were provided out of order, iirc.
  429. Guus it now picked the last cert in the chain, as that's typically the EE cert.
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  433. Link Mauve Oh, my renew script uses cat twice; why?!
  434. Ge0rG two cats are better than one
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  436. Guus two cats is obviou...whathesaid
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  439. Link Mauve Guus, better now?
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  442. Guus Link Mauve, yes it stopped warning me.
  443. Guus I think we did StartTLS and not DirectTLS, by the way
  444. Guus _xmpps-server._tcp.linkmauve.fr does not seem to exist.
  445. Link Mauve Yes, indeed.
  446. Link Mauve I don’t do legacy TLS on this server.
  447. Guus ok, but that's what I was testing in the first place 🙂
  448. Ge0rG "legacy TLS"? What's that now?
  449. Guus Yeah, Openfire sadly refers to direct tls as 'legacy' in various places too 😞
  450. Guus I think we even have an issue for that, to change that into 'direct'.
  451. Ge0rG because it was used on port 5223 for clients before starttls became a thing
  452. Guus stems from the introduction of StartTLS that was considered the new holy grale, replacing everything else...
  453. Ge0rG Yeah. We were naive back then.
  454. Holger Guus: > using a proper certificate made all the difference. I think that directTLS from Openfire to dave.cridland.net and conversations.im is now working. conversations.im should also accept Dialback auth, by the way.
  455. MattJ And we're not now
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  457. Holger 🙂
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  459. Guus Holger: I was forcing direct TLS
  460. Holger Guus: Shouldn't Dialback auth work with direct TLS?
  461. Guus Holger, yes, but with direct TLS, you didn't like my self-signed cert, I think. Didn't even get to start dialback
  462. Holger Hmm, maybe something wrong on our side. I'll check.
  463. Guus if somethings wrong, it's probably on this side 🙂
  464. Holger But I remember at least one versions of Openfire and ejabberd not being big friends when it came to Dialback auth in the past.
  465. Holger Forgot the details, and whether the issue was resolved at some point.
  466. Guus Holger, that's probably many moons ago.
  467. Holger *at least old versions
  468. Holger Guus: Yeah may well have been fixed long ago.
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  470. Guus Holger: if you do find new issues, please let me know
  471. Holger Will do.
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  478. Holger Dave Cridland: > but it seems to use it to me. Yes all recent ejabberds will attempt direct TLS if DNS tells them to do that.
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  495. Guus Holger: do you prefer that over StartTLS, or do you adhere to prio / weight of SRV records?
  496. Holger We adhere to the prio/weight, I think the XEP tells you to.
  497. Holger > Both 'xmpp-' and 'xmpps-' records SHOULD be treated as the same record with regard to connection order as specified by RFC 2782 [3], in that all priorities and weights are mixed.
  498. Holger > This enables the server operator to decide if they would rather clients connect with STARTTLS or direct TLS. However, clients MAY choose to prefer one type of connection over the other.
  499. Holger But you're not a client! ;-)
  500. Guus exactly.
  501. Guus 'peer' 🙂
  502. Guus just wondering. So it's a coincidence that you did directtls with dave
  503. Guus assuming he has both SRV records, I didn't check.
  504. Holger Ah he has both, but both with the same prio/weight.
  505. Holger Just checked, in that case (same prio/weight) we prefer direct TLS indeed.
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  509. Guus why? shouldn't you do 50/50?
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  513. daniel Faster
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  515. daniel It's arguably better and if the admin didn't set a preference (which I would respect) I'd prefer direct
  516. Guus sure, but still - if the SRV records are set up with the same prio/weight, shouldn't the connection attempts be distributed evenly?
  517. daniel According to the xep which says combine the two the answer is yes
  518. daniel But I don't agree
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  520. SamWhited (I am also still against that wording and think it makes no sense to combine the two)
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  522. daniel I mean honering the prio makes sense
  523. daniel But honering the weight doesn't
  524. Guus I'm not sure it'd be a good idea to deviate from standard SRV semantics, if we use them.
  525. daniel Weight is load management. And why would you manage load between direct and start
  526. Guus sure, but then instruct/suggest to admins to use different prio's
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  531. Guus (or: don't combine the two, sure)
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  544. Holger Guus: Yes, strictly speaking you're right of course.
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  546. Guus Holger, I don't think I am. They're different SRV records. It's only because the XEP tells us to combine them, ...
  547. Guus (records for different services, I mean)
  548. jonasw Guus, there is no such thing as "standard SRV semantics" when mixing two types of SRV records
  549. jonasw that’s an invention of XEP-0368
  550. Guus jonasw, that's pretty much what I just typed 🙂
  551. Holger Yes I mean you're right that it goes against the XEP words to prefer one type.
  552. Guus or intended to, at least
  553. jonasw what
  554. jonasw I am not sure whether my client has shown your messages before it has shown mine
  555. jonasw *shrug*
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  557. Holger jonasw: The XEP tells you to mix the records as if both were of the same type, and to then apply standard SRV semantics.
  558. Guus jonasw: just nod and agree with me that I was wrong 🙂
  559. jonasw I’ll just walk away and water the plants instead! ha!
  560. Guus jonasw, how often did we ask you to not water the plastic plants?!
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  564. jonasw Guus, those ain’t plastic!
  565. jonasw https://uc.xmpp.zombofant.net/1af3e64c-98e4-4f39-b92b-df826fe9a97a/IMG_20180723_170548.jpg
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  570. daniel 2 megabytes? I hope those will be some nice plants
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  573. daniel Once I've finished downloading that in like half an hour
  574. jonasw daniel, https://uc.xmpp.zombofant.net/b607154c-4bec-495e-a513-3a3521a2b192/foo.jpg is that helpful? :)
  575. jonasw if we had SIMS deployment, I could’ve uploaded multiple versions (or have my server rewrite that)
  576. Dave Cridland Holger, If the prio/weight is the same, what does it mean to "prefer" one? You bias the weight, or are you using weight like priority?
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  581. Holger Dave Cridland: No I meant if there's an _xmpp-server. and an _xmpps-server. record and both have the same prio and the same weight (like you have for your server), we'll prefer the _xmpps-server. record. While the XEP tells us not to do this but to choose one at random instead.
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  584. Dave Cridland So what do you do if the _xmpp-server has weight 4, and the xmpps_server has weight 5?
  585. Dave Cridland Do you not choose one at random then?
  586. Holger Then we do :-)
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  588. jonasw hm
  589. jonasw that’s a very weird corner case you’re constructing there
  590. Dave Cridland Holger, What, so you're literally special-casing equal-wieght?
  591. Holger Oh! Ignore me.
  592. jonasw I would’ve understood if you preferred direct TLS on equal prio, but ... special casing equal weight is weird
  593. Holger Well don't ignore me :-)
  594. Dave Cridland (FWIW, I could totaqlly go along with that when all weights are zero)
  595. Holger Dave Cridland: Yes exactly. _xmpps-server is only preferred if the weithts are zero.
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  597. Holger Sorry.
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  600. Dave Cridland Holger, Ah! OK, that makes sense - you're faced with something illegal so you take a policy view.
  601. jonasw refresh my memory, why is it illegal?
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  606. Dave Cridland jonasw, Because you're meant to randomly select a specific record ( weight / [total weights] ) of the time.
  607. jonasw yes
  608. Dave Cridland jonasw, If all weights are zero, then you're picking each record 0/0 of the time.
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  610. Dave Cridland jonasw, However, a weight *can* (and should, maybe) be zero if it is the only one - and that might occur by accident if there's only one *each* of _xmpp-server and _xmpps-server.
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  612. jonasw hm
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  614. jonasw the text in RFC 2782 (DNS-SRV) actually tells you how to deal with (even multiple) records of weight zero, even in presence of records which have non-zero weight
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  616. Holger > So it's a coincidence that you did directtls with dave So turns out the answer is "yes", after all.
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  618. Dave Cridland jonasw, Yes, indeed. So "illegal" is an incorrect assertion. But still, Holger's "if everything is weight zero, do TLS" is fine.
  619. jonasw but DNS-SRV allows for "additional weighting information"
  620. jonasw in which case everything said there about how weights are used is irrelevant it seems
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  623. Dave Cridland Well. XEP-0368 says (I paraphrase) combine all the SRVs and then do RFC 2782.
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  625. Guus Dave, I've got that XEP-0368 PR up for you to review, btw 🙂
  626. Guus still trying to lure you back in...
  627. Dave Cridland Guus, Yeah, I might even get to that.
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  629. Dave Cridland Guus, Doing it now in fact.
  630. Guus \o/
  631. Guus (maybe have tissues ready for the occasional wiping of tears)
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