-
jonasw
mind, even CLIENT: <foo/> SERVER:<bar/> can easily be parsed as XML
-
flow
yeah, but I do believe we should discourage that and encourge one <example/> per stream element or stream element group
-
Kev
I'm not entirely sure about that, I think having a single logical example in a single example block makes reading easier sometimes.
-
Ge0rG
Yes. It's better to have an exchange in one example than in two or four
-
jonasw
+1 Kev, Ge0rG
-
jonasw
https://slack.engineering/reducing-slacks-memory-footprint-4480fec7e8eb
-
jonasw
it has a nice infographic on how slack handles notifications
-
Kev
If we care about an example being valid XML without annotation (and I'm not sure that we do, but maybe), <!-- Client --> <!-- Server --> work.
-
jonasw
<https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/2000/0*PV_09olld6K1l8jQ.> for those who don’t like javascript (yes, the dot is part of the URL)
-
Ge0rG
And if we can get the (whatever component does the styling) to special-color "client:" and "server:" at the highest level, it'd be great.
-
jonasw
Kev, the text in front of the elements is valid XML, too ;-)
-
Kev
Well, yes, that's true.
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: are you saying that any text is valid XML?
-
jonasw
Ge0rG, no
-
Kev
But only if you wrap it all.
-
jonasw
Kev, you have to do that anyways when you have multiple elements
-
intosi
Kev: valid XML, sure. Valid XMPP, no :)
-
Ge0rG
phew. I was frightened for a moment.
-
Kev
jonasw: Yes, true.
-
jonasw
intosi, comments wouldn’t be valid XMPP either
-
Kev
intosi: Sure, but ... I don't think we're going to validate XMPP in the examples.
-
jonasw
not that strictly at least. I do have a prototype of a thing which validates the examples against the respective XML schemas
-
Ge0rG
Kev: but I was just going to copy-paste all XEP examples into my client's XML console!
-
Kev
Ge0rG: I wouldn't try to stop you :)
-
Kev
jonasw: That Slack article is very much the direction I've been pushing with XMPP, too.
-
Kev
Having servers know about unread counts and understand notifications.
-
Ge0rG
Let's make XMPP a Slack clone!
-
Ge0rG
Kev: but the meta data! It's getting even more! And worse!
-
Kev
Ge0rG: Or, let's use good ideas even if other people have them too (after us, in this case).
- Ge0rG is now going to remodel the yaxim account creation flow into entering a display name and auto-slugifying that into a JID
-
flow
> Ge0rG> Yes. It's better to have an exchange in one example than in two or four
-
flow
Not sure, the examples in RFC 6120 § 9 a very readable without using one big example block
-
Ge0rG
flow: btw... did you want to offer me your help in bringing smack4 into yaxim, again? :)
-
flow
Ge0rG, No, I didn't want to offer my help, I did offer my help
-
flow
and that offer still stands
-
Ge0rG
flow: the markup in https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html#examples is rather minimal, the one in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0409.html#activation is rather distracting imho
-
flow
Ge0rG, yes, but that is a layout issue, maybe we need to invent an additinal <example/> thingy for sequences
-
edhelas
> This application can consume between ~130MB (p10) and ~960MB (p99) of memory depending on team activity and UI state.
-
edhelas
damn
-
flow
my point is that the thing that example encloses should be just XMPP XML, and not surrounding annotations. Using XML comments for annotations doesn't appeal to me too, because it may give the impression that XMPP allows them
-
jonasw
hm
-
flow
IIRC Link Mauve (?) worked on validating examples with the provided schema. I'd really like to see that happen, as it helps finding issues in the examples *and* the schema
-
jonasw
we can do that already
-
jonasw
source: I have code which does it
-
flow
and one precondition would probably be that the, possibly new to be created, <examples-foo/> thing is as pure as possible
-
flow
jonasw, is it part of your xeplint?
-
jonasw
yes
-
jonasw
or at least of an earlier version
-
jonasw
I think the current one doesn’t do it yet
-
flow
that's great, how many false negatives to you get?
-
jonasw
the issue is that many included schemas aren’t available
-
jonasw
so validation breaks very easily
-
flow
"aren't available"?
-
jonasw
404
-
flow
are those schemas not included in the XEP?
-
jonasw
the ones defined by the XEP are, but sometimes they refer to other XEP’s schemas
-
flow
jonasw, ahh, but then it's not really a 404 if the other XEP is availble, isn't it? :)
-
jonasw
flow, it is, because the schema is included via an HTTP url
-
jonasw
guessing from which XEP the included schema originates is impossible without scanning over all XEPs
-
MattJ
Kev, and do you have a proposol on how to get anything nearly as complex as that graph standardized and configurable?
-
Kev
Not yet. My first interest is solving the unread problem, and then moving on to notifications.
-
Kev
FWIW, a lot of it revolves around attaching references to messages, I think.
-
Kev
I think if we craft references sensibly, we can at least make mentions and things easier for a server to process.
-
jonasw
Kev, is there any hope that my feedback gets incorporated into References?
-
Kev
I've not touched References in a while, sorry. If you gave feedback and I've not addressed it, it should still be in my XSF TODO folder.
-
Kev
Edwin's got the lead of References updates at the moment.
-
jonasw
2018-03-12 is the date of my email, if that helps
-
Kev
Although I keep giving him other stuff to do :)
-
MattJ
Is the "unread problem" blocking bind2?
-
Kev
No, I don't think so.
-
Ge0rG
do we have an agenda?
-
Ge0rG
I'd like to add a proto XEP
-
Dave Cridland
Ge0rG, We do; I've just not quite sent it yet. What's the ProtoXEP you wanted?
-
Ge0rG
Dave Cridland: I need to submit it yet.
-
jonasw
synopsis?
-
Dave Cridland
Ge0rG, Hurry!
-
jonasw
Dave Cridland, do you have file sharing notifications on your list?
-
Dave Cridland
jonasw, "fsn" and #681.
-
Bunneh
jonasw: XEP-0050: Remove the status attribute from the request #681 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/681
-
Ge0rG
> XEP-xxxx: Schrödinger's Chat > This protocol extension for XEP-0045 Multi User Chat allows clients to check whether they are still joined to a chatroom.
-
jonasw
Dave Cridland, #682
-
Bunneh
Dave Cridland: XEP-0065, XEP-0363: Document exposing the service on the user’s domain #682 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/682
-
Dave Cridland
I love the name.
-
Ge0rG
It's been the name of the XMPP off-topic MUC for a while now.
-
jonasw
Dave Cridland, the vote on #672 is missing from your spreadsheet of doom
-
Bunneh
Dave Cridland: XEP-0059: Add 'exact(-index)' attribute to RSM's <count/> and <first/> #672 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/672
-
jonasw
(you probably know that, but I thought I’d mention it anyways)
-
Dave Cridland
Ted Sterr actually put the voting stuff into a CSV and sent it to me to paste in. I need to do that (maybe Real Soon Now)
-
jonasw
awesome
-
jonasw
can I subscribe to that?
-
jonasw
would be useful to keep the pull requests clean
-
Dave Cridland
jonasw, It's public; let me dig out the link.
-
Dave Cridland
jonasw, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AZ-Sna6OiRG--b-mJMKv3XXfrn3Nehm0kAtlyJvImL0/edit?usp=sharing
-
jonasw
I know your spreadsheet (I have it bookmarked, even), but the CSV service from Ted would be good too :)
-
jonasw
also, was #664 discussed?
-
Bunneh
jonasw: XEP-0045: Add implementation note about {jabber:x:conference}x payload #664 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/664
-
Dave Cridland
jonasw, Oh. I don't think it's a *service* as such...
-
jonasw
oh, it was
-
jonasw
totally missed that all were +1 except for the typo :)
-
MattJ
jonasw, curl https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AZ-Sna6OiRG--b-mJMKv3XXfrn3Nehm0kAtlyJvImL0/export?format=csv ?
-
jonasw
MattJ, no, I don’t need CSV specifically. I had the impression that Ted had some updated data which isn’t in that document yet
-
Dave Cridland
jonasw, I'll put that in now. Sadly doesn't cut/paste.
-
Dave Cridland
jonasw, If you want edit rights to the sheet, though, just ask.
-
jonasw
if I were able to follow the council meetings closely enough to do that, I’d be taking minutes and/or not need that sheet at all, unfortunately :(
-
Dave Cridland
Ge0rG, How imminent in that ProtoXEP?✎ -
Dave Cridland
Ge0rG, How imminent is that ProtoXEP? ✏
-
Ge0rG
Dave Cridland: it's 75% ready.
-
Ge0rG
Dave Cridland: if you put it on the agenda, I'll get it to the editor within the next 2h
-
jonasw
the editor can’t promise to manage it to get it on the website and emailed today unless there is a PR before 18:30✎ -
jonasw
the editor can’t promise to manage it to get it on the website and emailed today unless there is a PR before 18:30 CEST ✏
-
jonasw
but I’ll do my best
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: 18:30, okay.
-
Dave Cridland
Ge0rG, I can't send the agenda out with a protoxep on it that's not been announced. Don't rush it - we'll do it next week if not this.
-
Ge0rG
Dave Cridland: I don't believe into those delays, and I'm going on holiday in three weeks.
-
Dave Cridland
Well, I'll hold off as long as possible.
-
jonasw
Dave Cridland, what’s your limit for delaying the agenda?
-
Dave Cridland
Well, I (try to) send it out 24 hours in advance, which was 26 minutes ago. :-)
-
Dave Cridland
But in practise, Kev only starts complaining if it's not out by tomorrow morning.
-
Kev
And Kev's the only person who ever complains.
-
Dave Cridland
I didn't say that.
-
Dave Cridland
Hinted, very strongly, but didn't actually say...
-
Kev
Which might, disappointingly, mean Kev's the only person who puts aside time to review the agendums before each meeting.
-
Ge0rG
I try to take aside the time. I'm just too polite to complain.
-
Ge0rG
> Copyright: © 1999 – 2017 XMPP Standards Foundation. SEE LEGAL NOTICES. we should fix the year
-
Dave Cridland
Ge0rG, Easier to fix the copyright statement.
-
Ge0rG
Dave Cridland: do we have a process for *that*?
-
Ge0rG
jonasw: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/687
-
jonasw
wee
-
Ge0rG
Rendered version: https://op-co.de/tmp/muc-selfping.html
-
jonasw
build in progress
-
jonasw
Ge0rG, for optimum speed, watch https://hub.docker.com/r/xmppxsf/xeps/builds/ and tell me when the newest goes green
-
Ge0rG
There is a huge red "Cancel" button.
-
Ge0rG
I. Must. Resist.
-
jonasw
Ge0rG, which won’t do anything unless you’re logged in and have permissions
-
jonasw
funnily enough, the response of the cancel button is exactly the same if you’re logged in or not.
-
jonasw
you need to reload to find out whether it actually cancelled something
-
Dave Cridland
Ge0rG, Where did you see that copyright statement? The one in xep.xsl looks to be 2018.
-
jonasw
Dave Cridland, look at the date of the last commit touching that file ;-)
-
jonasw
(TL;DR: I patched it just this second)✎ -
Dave Cridland
Ah, 5 minutes ago...
-
jonasw
(TL;DR: I patched it just five minutes ago) ✏
-
Ge0rG
> Building
-
Dave Cridland
Ge0rG, Still building?
-
Ge0rG
Dave Cridland: still building.
-
Ge0rG
Dave Cridland: Jonas said, it might take 90mins
-
Zash
Madness
- Ge0rG is thus polling https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-selfping.html
-
Ge0rG
Dave Cridland: ETA is some time between 30 and 55mins from now. You could also wait until tomorrow morning and tell Kev to complain to me about it.
-
Dave Cridland
Well, got the agenda item all written up ready, just got to hit sent when it's done.
-
Ge0rG
That's great preparation.
-
Dave Cridland
For once.
-
jonasw
Ge0rG, Dave Cridland, check your (standards@) inboxes, the ProtoXEP is now at https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-selfping.html
-
Dave Cridland
Agenda launched!
-
jonasw
impact in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...
-
Ge0rG
Damn, my mobile email client has reset itself.
- SamWhited is looking forward to reading it, but as amusing as the title is probably won't +1 until there's a descriptive title that actually tells me what the XEP does.
-
Ge0rG
SamWhited: "MUC Self Ping" is way too unexciting
-
SamWhited
Good. I like unexciting.
-
SamWhited
(Schrödinger's Chat is very amusing though; maybe that could be an april fools XEP or something)
-
Zash
MattJ: What was the term you pointed out in the ActivityPub spec?
-
Zash
SamWhited: Boring specs are out
-
Zash
> cool linked data
-
Zash
Cool!
-
MattJ
Standards are slipping
-
Zash
If it doesn't fit in 140 characters then it's too long and complicated!!11
-
Zash
-xep serious
-
Bunneh
Zash: Bookmarks 2 (This Time it's Serious) (Standards Track, Experimental, 2018-07-22) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0402.html
-
MattJ
QED
-
Zash
> I love the name. -- Dave Cridland
-
SamWhited
That one tells you what it does in a clear way before making a joke, at least.
-
Ge0rG
So we can settle on "MUC Self Ping (Schrödinger's Chat)"?
-
Ge0rG
I'd rather prefer it to be the other way round
-
Zash
Schrödinger's chat (Or, how I learned to stop worrying and self-ping in MUCs)
-
MattJ
This one weird trick...
-
Ge0rG
Zash [18:56]: > Schrödinger's chat (Or, how I learned to stop worrying and self-ping in MUCs) 👍
-
martin
Funn, just a few days ago I exectly implemented self ping in a bot I wrote.
-
Ge0rG
martin: did you do everything right?
-
martin
Hope so. I send ping to muc participant and check for result IQ with the correct ID. At least it works. Have not yet looked at your proposal in detail.
-
martin
Ge0rG: uh, your proposal says server reply is type 'get'. I always got 'result' or 'cancel'.
-
martin
I looked at 0199 so I did it this way.
-
Ge0rG
martin: sorry, copy & paste error in the example
-
Ge0rG
martin: no, wait. It's not the response, it's the reflection
-
martin
I see.