XSF Discussion - 2018-07-31

  1. jonasw

    mind, even CLIENT: <foo/> SERVER:<bar/> can easily be parsed as XML

  2. flow

    yeah, but I do believe we should discourage that and encourge one <example/> per stream element or stream element group

  3. Kev

    I'm not entirely sure about that, I think having a single logical example in a single example block makes reading easier sometimes.

  4. Ge0rG

    Yes. It's better to have an exchange in one example than in two or four

  5. jonasw

    +1 Kev, Ge0rG

  6. jonasw


  7. jonasw

    it has a nice infographic on how slack handles notifications

  8. Kev

    If we care about an example being valid XML without annotation (and I'm not sure that we do, but maybe), <!-- Client --> <!-- Server --> work.

  9. jonasw

    <https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/2000/0*PV_09olld6K1l8jQ.> for those who don’t like javascript (yes, the dot is part of the URL)

  10. Ge0rG

    And if we can get the (whatever component does the styling) to special-color "client:" and "server:" at the highest level, it'd be great.

  11. jonasw

    Kev, the text in front of the elements is valid XML, too ;-)

  12. Kev

    Well, yes, that's true.

  13. Ge0rG

    jonasw: are you saying that any text is valid XML?

  14. jonasw

    Ge0rG, no

  15. Kev

    But only if you wrap it all.

  16. jonasw

    Kev, you have to do that anyways when you have multiple elements

  17. intosi

    Kev: valid XML, sure. Valid XMPP, no :)

  18. Ge0rG

    phew. I was frightened for a moment.

  19. Kev

    jonasw: Yes, true.

  20. jonasw

    intosi, comments wouldn’t be valid XMPP either

  21. Kev

    intosi: Sure, but ... I don't think we're going to validate XMPP in the examples.

  22. jonasw

    not that strictly at least. I do have a prototype of a thing which validates the examples against the respective XML schemas

  23. Ge0rG

    Kev: but I was just going to copy-paste all XEP examples into my client's XML console!

  24. Kev

    Ge0rG: I wouldn't try to stop you :)

  25. Kev

    jonasw: That Slack article is very much the direction I've been pushing with XMPP, too.

  26. Kev

    Having servers know about unread counts and understand notifications.

  27. Ge0rG

    Let's make XMPP a Slack clone!

  28. Ge0rG

    Kev: but the meta data! It's getting even more! And worse!

  29. Kev

    Ge0rG: Or, let's use good ideas even if other people have them too (after us, in this case).

  30. Ge0rG is now going to remodel the yaxim account creation flow into entering a display name and auto-slugifying that into a JID

  31. flow

    > Ge0rG> Yes. It's better to have an exchange in one example than in two or four

  32. flow

    Not sure, the examples in RFC 6120 § 9 a very readable without using one big example block

  33. Ge0rG

    flow: btw... did you want to offer me your help in bringing smack4 into yaxim, again? :)

  34. flow

    Ge0rG, No, I didn't want to offer my help, I did offer my help

  35. flow

    and that offer still stands

  36. Ge0rG

    flow: the markup in https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html#examples is rather minimal, the one in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0409.html#activation is rather distracting imho

  37. flow

    Ge0rG, yes, but that is a layout issue, maybe we need to invent an additinal <example/> thingy for sequences

  38. edhelas

    > This application can consume between ~130MB (p10) and ~960MB (p99) of memory depending on team activity and UI state.

  39. edhelas


  40. flow

    my point is that the thing that example encloses should be just XMPP XML, and not surrounding annotations. Using XML comments for annotations doesn't appeal to me too, because it may give the impression that XMPP allows them

  41. jonasw


  42. flow

    IIRC Link Mauve (?) worked on validating examples with the provided schema. I'd really like to see that happen, as it helps finding issues in the examples *and* the schema

  43. jonasw

    we can do that already

  44. jonasw

    source: I have code which does it

  45. flow

    and one precondition would probably be that the, possibly new to be created, <examples-foo/> thing is as pure as possible

  46. flow

    jonasw, is it part of your xeplint?

  47. jonasw


  48. jonasw

    or at least of an earlier version

  49. jonasw

    I think the current one doesn’t do it yet

  50. flow

    that's great, how many false negatives to you get?

  51. jonasw

    the issue is that many included schemas aren’t available

  52. jonasw

    so validation breaks very easily

  53. flow

    "aren't available"?

  54. jonasw


  55. flow

    are those schemas not included in the XEP?

  56. jonasw

    the ones defined by the XEP are, but sometimes they refer to other XEP’s schemas

  57. flow

    jonasw, ahh, but then it's not really a 404 if the other XEP is availble, isn't it? :)

  58. jonasw

    flow, it is, because the schema is included via an HTTP url

  59. jonasw

    guessing from which XEP the included schema originates is impossible without scanning over all XEPs

  60. MattJ

    Kev, and do you have a proposol on how to get anything nearly as complex as that graph standardized and configurable?

  61. Kev

    Not yet. My first interest is solving the unread problem, and then moving on to notifications.

  62. Kev

    FWIW, a lot of it revolves around attaching references to messages, I think.

  63. Kev

    I think if we craft references sensibly, we can at least make mentions and things easier for a server to process.

  64. jonasw

    Kev, is there any hope that my feedback gets incorporated into References?

  65. Kev

    I've not touched References in a while, sorry. If you gave feedback and I've not addressed it, it should still be in my XSF TODO folder.

  66. Kev

    Edwin's got the lead of References updates at the moment.

  67. jonasw

    2018-03-12 is the date of my email, if that helps

  68. Kev

    Although I keep giving him other stuff to do :)

  69. MattJ

    Is the "unread problem" blocking bind2?

  70. Kev

    No, I don't think so.

  71. Ge0rG

    do we have an agenda?

  72. Ge0rG

    I'd like to add a proto XEP

  73. Dave Cridland

    Ge0rG, We do; I've just not quite sent it yet. What's the ProtoXEP you wanted?

  74. Ge0rG

    Dave Cridland: I need to submit it yet.

  75. jonasw


  76. Dave Cridland

    Ge0rG, Hurry!

  77. jonasw

    Dave Cridland, do you have file sharing notifications on your list?

  78. Dave Cridland

    jonasw, "fsn" and #681.

  79. Bunneh

    jonasw: XEP-0050: Remove the status attribute from the request #681 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/681

  80. Ge0rG

    > XEP-xxxx: Schrödinger's Chat > This protocol extension for XEP-0045 Multi User Chat allows clients to check whether they are still joined to a chatroom.

  81. jonasw

    Dave Cridland, #682

  82. Bunneh

    Dave Cridland: XEP-0065, XEP-0363: Document exposing the service on the user’s domain #682 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/682

  83. Dave Cridland

    I love the name.

  84. Ge0rG

    It's been the name of the XMPP off-topic MUC for a while now.

  85. jonasw

    Dave Cridland, the vote on #672 is missing from your spreadsheet of doom

  86. Bunneh

    Dave Cridland: XEP-0059: Add 'exact(-index)' attribute to RSM's <count/> and <first/> #672 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/672

  87. jonasw

    (you probably know that, but I thought I’d mention it anyways)

  88. Dave Cridland

    Ted Sterr actually put the voting stuff into a CSV and sent it to me to paste in. I need to do that (maybe Real Soon Now)

  89. jonasw


  90. jonasw

    can I subscribe to that?

  91. jonasw

    would be useful to keep the pull requests clean

  92. Dave Cridland

    jonasw, It's public; let me dig out the link.

  93. Dave Cridland

    jonasw, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AZ-Sna6OiRG--b-mJMKv3XXfrn3Nehm0kAtlyJvImL0/edit?usp=sharing

  94. jonasw

    I know your spreadsheet (I have it bookmarked, even), but the CSV service from Ted would be good too :)

  95. jonasw

    also, was #664 discussed?

  96. Bunneh

    jonasw: XEP-0045: Add implementation note about {jabber:x:conference}x payload #664 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/664

  97. Dave Cridland

    jonasw, Oh. I don't think it's a *service* as such...

  98. jonasw

    oh, it was

  99. jonasw

    totally missed that all were +1 except for the typo :)

  100. MattJ

    jonasw, curl https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AZ-Sna6OiRG--b-mJMKv3XXfrn3Nehm0kAtlyJvImL0/export?format=csv ?

  101. jonasw

    MattJ, no, I don’t need CSV specifically. I had the impression that Ted had some updated data which isn’t in that document yet

  102. Dave Cridland

    jonasw, I'll put that in now. Sadly doesn't cut/paste.

  103. Dave Cridland

    jonasw, If you want edit rights to the sheet, though, just ask.

  104. jonasw

    if I were able to follow the council meetings closely enough to do that, I’d be taking minutes and/or not need that sheet at all, unfortunately :(

  105. Dave Cridland

    Ge0rG, How imminent in that ProtoXEP?

  106. Dave Cridland

    Ge0rG, How imminent is that ProtoXEP?

  107. Ge0rG

    Dave Cridland: it's 75% ready.

  108. Ge0rG

    Dave Cridland: if you put it on the agenda, I'll get it to the editor within the next 2h

  109. jonasw

    the editor can’t promise to manage it to get it on the website and emailed today unless there is a PR before 18:30

  110. jonasw

    the editor can’t promise to manage it to get it on the website and emailed today unless there is a PR before 18:30 CEST

  111. jonasw

    but I’ll do my best

  112. Ge0rG

    jonasw: 18:30, okay.

  113. Dave Cridland

    Ge0rG, I can't send the agenda out with a protoxep on it that's not been announced. Don't rush it - we'll do it next week if not this.

  114. Ge0rG

    Dave Cridland: I don't believe into those delays, and I'm going on holiday in three weeks.

  115. Dave Cridland

    Well, I'll hold off as long as possible.

  116. jonasw

    Dave Cridland, what’s your limit for delaying the agenda?

  117. Dave Cridland

    Well, I (try to) send it out 24 hours in advance, which was 26 minutes ago. :-)

  118. Dave Cridland

    But in practise, Kev only starts complaining if it's not out by tomorrow morning.

  119. Kev

    And Kev's the only person who ever complains.

  120. Dave Cridland

    I didn't say that.

  121. Dave Cridland

    Hinted, very strongly, but didn't actually say...

  122. Kev

    Which might, disappointingly, mean Kev's the only person who puts aside time to review the agendums before each meeting.

  123. Ge0rG

    I try to take aside the time. I'm just too polite to complain.

  124. Ge0rG

    > Copyright: © 1999 – 2017 XMPP Standards Foundation. SEE LEGAL NOTICES. we should fix the year

  125. Dave Cridland

    Ge0rG, Easier to fix the copyright statement.

  126. Ge0rG

    Dave Cridland: do we have a process for *that*?

  127. Ge0rG

    jonasw: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/687

  128. jonasw


  129. Ge0rG

    Rendered version: https://op-co.de/tmp/muc-selfping.html

  130. jonasw

    build in progress

  131. jonasw

    Ge0rG, for optimum speed, watch https://hub.docker.com/r/xmppxsf/xeps/builds/ and tell me when the newest goes green

  132. Ge0rG

    There is a huge red "Cancel" button.

  133. Ge0rG

    I. Must. Resist.

  134. jonasw

    Ge0rG, which won’t do anything unless you’re logged in and have permissions

  135. jonasw

    funnily enough, the response of the cancel button is exactly the same if you’re logged in or not.

  136. jonasw

    you need to reload to find out whether it actually cancelled something

  137. Dave Cridland

    Ge0rG, Where did you see that copyright statement? The one in xep.xsl looks to be 2018.

  138. jonasw

    Dave Cridland, look at the date of the last commit touching that file ;-)

  139. jonasw

    (TL;DR: I patched it just this second)

  140. Dave Cridland

    Ah, 5 minutes ago...

  141. jonasw

    (TL;DR: I patched it just five minutes ago)

  142. Ge0rG

    > Building

  143. Dave Cridland

    Ge0rG, Still building?

  144. Ge0rG

    Dave Cridland: still building.

  145. Ge0rG

    Dave Cridland: Jonas said, it might take 90mins

  146. Zash


  147. Ge0rG is thus polling https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-selfping.html

  148. Ge0rG

    Dave Cridland: ETA is some time between 30 and 55mins from now. You could also wait until tomorrow morning and tell Kev to complain to me about it.

  149. Dave Cridland

    Well, got the agenda item all written up ready, just got to hit sent when it's done.

  150. Ge0rG

    That's great preparation.

  151. Dave Cridland

    For once.

  152. jonasw

    Ge0rG, Dave Cridland, check your (standards@) inboxes, the ProtoXEP is now at https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-selfping.html

  153. Dave Cridland

    Agenda launched!

  154. jonasw

    impact in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

  155. Ge0rG

    Damn, my mobile email client has reset itself.

  156. SamWhited is looking forward to reading it, but as amusing as the title is probably won't +1 until there's a descriptive title that actually tells me what the XEP does.

  157. Ge0rG

    SamWhited: "MUC Self Ping" is way too unexciting

  158. SamWhited

    Good. I like unexciting.

  159. SamWhited

    (Schrödinger's Chat is very amusing though; maybe that could be an april fools XEP or something)

  160. Zash

    MattJ: What was the term you pointed out in the ActivityPub spec?

  161. Zash

    SamWhited: Boring specs are out

  162. Zash

    > cool linked data

  163. Zash


  164. MattJ

    Standards are slipping

  165. Zash

    If it doesn't fit in 140 characters then it's too long and complicated!!11

  166. Zash

    -xep serious

  167. Bunneh

    Zash: Bookmarks 2 (This Time it's Serious) (Standards Track, Experimental, 2018-07-22) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0402.html

  168. MattJ


  169. Zash

    > I love the name. -- Dave Cridland

  170. SamWhited

    That one tells you what it does in a clear way before making a joke, at least.

  171. Ge0rG

    So we can settle on "MUC Self Ping (Schrödinger's Chat)"?

  172. Ge0rG

    I'd rather prefer it to be the other way round

  173. Zash

    Schrödinger's chat (Or, how I learned to stop worrying and self-ping in MUCs)

  174. MattJ

    This one weird trick...

  175. Ge0rG

    Zash [18:56]: > Schrödinger's chat (Or, how I learned to stop worrying and self-ping in MUCs) 👍

  176. martin

    Funn, just a few days ago I exectly implemented self ping in a bot I wrote.

  177. Ge0rG

    martin: did you do everything right?

  178. martin

    Hope so. I send ping to muc participant and check for result IQ with the correct ID. At least it works. Have not yet looked at your proposal in detail.

  179. martin

    Ge0rG: uh, your proposal says server reply is type 'get'. I always got 'result' or 'cancel'.

  180. martin

    I looked at 0199 so I did it this way.

  181. Ge0rG

    martin: sorry, copy & paste error in the example

  182. Ge0rG

    martin: no, wait. It's not the response, it's the reflection

  183. martin

    I see.