XSF Discussion - 2018-07-31

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05:57:43 jonasw mind, even CLIENT: <foo/> SERVER:<bar/> can easily be parsed as XML
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07:57:07 flow yeah, but I do believe we should discourage that and encourge one <example/> per stream element or stream element group
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07:58:41 Kev I'm not entirely sure about that, I think having a single logical example in a single example block makes reading easier sometimes.
08:01:53 Ge0rG Yes. It's better to have an exchange in one example than in two or four
08:02:36 jonasw +1 Kev, Ge0rG
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08:03:03 jonasw https://slack.engineering/reducing-slacks-memory-footprint-4480fec7e8eb
08:03:09 jonasw it has a nice infographic on how slack handles notifications
08:03:21 Kev If we care about an example being valid XML without annotation (and I'm not sure that we do, but maybe),   work.
08:03:25 jonasw <https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/2000/0*PV_09olld6K1l8jQ.> for those who don’t like javascript (yes, the dot is part of the URL)
08:03:28 Ge0rG And if we can get the (whatever component does the styling) to special-color "client:" and "server:" at the highest level, it'd be great.
08:03:39 jonasw Kev, the text in front of the elements is valid XML, too ;-)
08:03:53 Kev Well, yes, that's true.
08:03:56 Ge0rG jonasw: are you saying that any text is valid XML?
08:04:03 jonasw Ge0rG, no
08:04:03 Kev But only if you wrap it all.
08:04:10 jonasw Kev, you have to do that anyways when you have multiple elements
08:04:11 intosi Kev: valid XML, sure. Valid XMPP, no :)
08:04:16 Ge0rG phew. I was frightened for a moment.
08:04:17 Kev jonasw: Yes, true.
08:04:19 jonasw intosi, comments wouldn’t be valid XMPP either
08:04:34 Kev intosi: Sure, but ... I don't think we're going to validate XMPP in the examples.
08:04:51 jonasw not that strictly at least. I do have a prototype of a thing which validates the examples against the respective XML schemas
08:05:06 Ge0rG Kev: but I was just going to copy-paste all XEP examples into my client's XML console!
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08:07:59 Kev Ge0rG: I wouldn't try to stop you :)
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08:10:37 Kev jonasw: That Slack article is very much the direction I've been pushing with XMPP, too.
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08:10:49 Kev Having servers know about unread counts and understand notifications.
08:10:51 Ge0rG Let's make XMPP a Slack clone!
08:11:06 Ge0rG Kev: but the meta data! It's getting even more! And worse!
08:11:25 Kev Ge0rG: Or, let's use good ideas even if other people have them too (after us, in this case).
08:11:37 Ge0rG is now going to remodel the yaxim account creation flow into entering a display name and auto-slugifying that into a JID
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08:14:40 flow > Ge0rG> Yes. It's better to have an exchange in one example than in two or four
08:15:11 flow Not sure, the examples in RFC 6120 § 9 a very readable without using one big example block
08:15:11 Ge0rG flow: btw... did you want to offer me your help in bringing smack4 into yaxim, again? :)
08:15:29 flow Ge0rG, No, I didn't want to offer my help, I did offer my help
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08:16:21 flow and that offer still stands
08:16:53 Ge0rG flow: the markup in https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html#examples is rather minimal, the one in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0409.html#activation is rather distracting imho
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08:17:43 flow Ge0rG, yes, but that is a layout issue, maybe we need to invent an additinal <example/> thingy for sequences
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08:21:06 edhelas > This application can consume between ~130MB (p10) and ~960MB (p99) of memory depending on team activity and UI state.
08:21:07 edhelas damn
08:22:26 flow my point is that the thing that example encloses should be just XMPP XML, and not surrounding annotations. Using XML comments for annotations doesn't appeal to me too, because it may give the impression that XMPP allows them
08:22:50 jonasw hm
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08:24:13 flow IIRC Link Mauve (?) worked on validating examples with the provided schema. I'd really like to see that happen, as it helps finding issues in the examples *and* the schema
08:25:07 jonasw we can do that already
08:25:11 jonasw source: I have code which does it
08:25:14 flow and one precondition would probably be that the, possibly new to be created, <examples-foo/> thing is as pure as possible
08:25:37 flow jonasw, is it part of your xeplint?
08:25:39 jonasw yes
08:25:43 jonasw or at least of an earlier version
08:25:47 jonasw I think the current one doesn’t do it yet
08:26:01 flow that's great, how many false negatives to you get?
08:26:14 jonasw the issue is that many included schemas aren’t available
08:26:19 jonasw so validation breaks very easily
08:26:27 flow "aren't available"?
08:26:32 jonasw 404
08:26:42 flow are those schemas not included in the XEP?
08:27:33 jonasw the ones defined by the XEP are, but sometimes they refer to other XEP’s schemas
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08:34:30 flow jonasw, ahh, but then it's not really a 404 if the other XEP is availble, isn't it? :)
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08:34:47 jonasw flow, it is, because the schema is included via an HTTP url
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08:35:15 jonasw guessing from which XEP the included schema originates is impossible without scanning over all XEPs
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08:43:59 MattJ Kev, and do you have a proposol on how to get anything nearly as complex as that graph standardized and configurable?
08:44:22 Kev Not yet. My first interest is solving the unread problem, and then moving on to notifications.
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08:46:59 Kev FWIW, a lot of it revolves around attaching references to messages, I think.
08:47:30 Kev I think if we craft references sensibly, we can at least make mentions and things easier for a server to process.
08:48:13 jonasw Kev, is there any hope that my feedback gets incorporated into References?
08:48:38 Kev I've not touched References in a while, sorry. If you gave feedback and I've not addressed it, it should still be in my XSF TODO folder.
08:48:55 Kev Edwin's got the lead of References updates at the moment.
08:49:20 jonasw 2018-03-12 is the date of my email, if that helps
08:49:28 Kev Although I keep giving him other stuff to do :)
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08:57:49 MattJ Is the "unread problem" blocking bind2?
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08:59:07 Kev No, I don't think so.
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14:44:29 Ge0rG do we have an agenda?
14:44:41 Ge0rG I'd like to add a proto XEP
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14:56:16 Dave Cridland Ge0rG, We do; I've just not quite sent it yet. What's the ProtoXEP you wanted?
14:56:27 Ge0rG Dave Cridland: I need to submit it yet.
14:56:36 jonasw synopsis?
14:56:49 Dave Cridland Ge0rG, Hurry!
14:56:51 jonasw Dave Cridland, do you have file sharing notifications on your list?
14:57:04 Dave Cridland jonasw, "fsn" and #681.
14:57:05 Bunneh jonasw: XEP-0050: Remove the status attribute from the request #681 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/681
14:57:10 Ge0rG > XEP-xxxx: Schrödinger's Chat > This protocol extension for XEP-0045 Multi User Chat allows clients to check whether they are still joined to a chatroom.
14:57:23 jonasw Dave Cridland, #682
14:57:23 Bunneh Dave Cridland: XEP-0065, XEP-0363: Document exposing the service on the user’s domain #682 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/682
14:57:25 Dave Cridland I love the name.
14:57:50 Ge0rG It's been the name of the XMPP off-topic MUC for a while now.
14:58:45 jonasw Dave Cridland, the vote on #672 is missing from your spreadsheet of doom
14:58:46 Bunneh Dave Cridland: XEP-0059: Add 'exact(-index)' attribute to RSM's <count/> and <first/> #672 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/672
14:58:52 jonasw (you probably know that, but I thought I’d mention it anyways)
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14:59:30 Dave Cridland Ted Sterr actually put the voting stuff into a CSV and sent it to me to paste in. I need to do that (maybe Real Soon Now)
14:59:43 jonasw awesome
14:59:50 jonasw can I subscribe to that?
15:00:01 jonasw would be useful to keep the pull requests clean
15:00:14 Dave Cridland jonasw, It's public; let me dig out the link.
15:00:48 Dave Cridland jonasw, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AZ-Sna6OiRG--b-mJMKv3XXfrn3Nehm0kAtlyJvImL0/edit?usp=sharing
15:01:10 jonasw I know your spreadsheet (I have it bookmarked, even), but the CSV service from Ted would be good too :)
15:01:29 jonasw also, was #664 discussed?
15:01:30 Bunneh jonasw: XEP-0045: Add implementation note about {jabber:x:conference}x payload #664 https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/664
15:01:33 Dave Cridland jonasw, Oh. I don't think it's a *service* as such...
15:01:46 jonasw oh, it was
15:01:54 jonasw totally missed that all were +1 except for the typo :)
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15:03:35 MattJ jonasw, curl https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AZ-Sna6OiRG--b-mJMKv3XXfrn3Nehm0kAtlyJvImL0/export?format=csv ?
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15:05:08 jonasw MattJ, no, I don’t need CSV specifically. I had the impression that Ted had some updated data which isn’t in that document yet
15:05:33 Dave Cridland jonasw, I'll put that in now. Sadly doesn't cut/paste.
15:05:53 Dave Cridland jonasw, If you want edit rights to the sheet, though, just ask.
15:06:25 jonasw if I were able to follow the council meetings closely enough to do that, I’d be taking minutes and/or not need that sheet at all, unfortunately :(
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15:13:16 Dave Cridland Ge0rG, How imminent in that ProtoXEP?
15:13:33 Dave Cridland Ge0rG, How imminent is that ProtoXEP?
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15:14:56 Ge0rG Dave Cridland: it's 75% ready.
15:15:12 Ge0rG Dave Cridland: if you put it on the agenda, I'll get it to the editor within the next 2h
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15:16:58 jonasw the editor can’t promise to manage it to get it on the website and emailed today unless there is a PR before 18:30
15:17:02 jonasw the editor can’t promise to manage it to get it on the website and emailed today unless there is a PR before 18:30 CEST
15:17:05 jonasw but I’ll do my best
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15:21:27 Ge0rG jonasw: 18:30, okay.
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15:23:05 Dave Cridland Ge0rG, I can't send the agenda out with a protoxep on it that's not been announced. Don't rush it - we'll do it next week if not this.
15:25:24 Ge0rG Dave Cridland: I don't believe into those delays, and I'm going on holiday in three weeks.
15:25:53 Dave Cridland Well, I'll hold off as long as possible.
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15:26:39 jonasw Dave Cridland, what’s your limit for delaying the agenda?
15:27:05 Dave Cridland Well, I (try to) send it out 24 hours in advance, which was 26 minutes ago. :-)
15:27:31 Dave Cridland But in practise, Kev only starts complaining if it's not out by tomorrow morning.
15:28:09 Kev And Kev's the only person who ever complains.
15:28:18 Dave Cridland I didn't say that.
15:28:26 Dave Cridland Hinted, very strongly, but didn't actually say...
15:29:17 Kev Which might, disappointingly, mean Kev's the only person who puts aside time to review the agendums before each meeting.
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15:30:35 Ge0rG I try to take aside the time. I'm just too polite to complain.
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15:32:57 Ge0rG > Copyright: © 1999 – 2017 XMPP Standards Foundation. SEE LEGAL NOTICES. we should fix the year
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15:33:54 Dave Cridland Ge0rG, Easier to fix the copyright statement.
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15:34:46 Ge0rG Dave Cridland: do we have a process for *that*?
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15:35:14 Ge0rG jonasw: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/687
15:35:23 jonasw wee
15:36:01 Ge0rG Rendered version: https://op-co.de/tmp/muc-selfping.html
15:36:18 jonasw build in progress
15:37:01 jonasw Ge0rG, for optimum speed, watch https://hub.docker.com/r/xmppxsf/xeps/builds/ and tell me when the newest goes green
15:37:28 Ge0rG There is a huge red "Cancel" button.
15:37:31 Ge0rG I. Must. Resist.
15:37:37 jonasw Ge0rG, which won’t do anything unless you’re logged in and have permissions
15:37:52 jonasw funnily enough, the response of the cancel button is exactly the same if you’re logged in or not.
15:37:58 jonasw you need to reload to find out whether it actually cancelled something
15:38:54 Dave Cridland Ge0rG, Where did you see that copyright statement? The one in xep.xsl looks to be 2018.
15:39:33 jonasw Dave Cridland, look at the date of the last commit touching that file ;-)
15:39:48 jonasw (TL;DR: I patched it just this second)
15:39:49 Dave Cridland Ah, 5 minutes ago...
15:39:55 jonasw (TL;DR: I patched it just five minutes ago)
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15:42:34 Ge0rG > Building
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16:13:06 Dave Cridland Ge0rG, Still building?
16:13:12 Ge0rG Dave Cridland: still building.
16:13:34 Ge0rG Dave Cridland: Jonas said, it might take 90mins
16:13:40 Zash Madness
16:13:59 Ge0rG is thus polling https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-selfping.html
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16:15:17 Ge0rG Dave Cridland: ETA is some time between 30 and 55mins from now. You could also wait until tomorrow morning and tell Kev to complain to me about it.
16:15:37 Dave Cridland Well, got the agenda item all written up ready, just got to hit sent when it's done.
16:16:14 Ge0rG That's great preparation.
16:16:48 Dave Cridland For once.
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16:31:53 jonasw Ge0rG, Dave Cridland, check your (standards@) inboxes, the ProtoXEP is now at https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-selfping.html
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16:34:21 Dave Cridland Agenda launched!
16:35:48 jonasw impact in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...
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16:40:17 Ge0rG Damn, my mobile email client has reset itself.
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16:45:13 SamWhited is looking forward to reading it, but as amusing as the title is probably won't +1 until there's a descriptive title that actually tells me what the XEP does.
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16:46:53 Ge0rG SamWhited: "MUC Self Ping" is way too unexciting
16:47:20 SamWhited Good. I like unexciting.
16:47:56 SamWhited (Schrödinger's Chat is very amusing though; maybe that could be an april fools XEP or something)
16:47:57 Zash MattJ: What was the term you pointed out in the ActivityPub spec?
16:48:17 Zash SamWhited: Boring specs are out
16:49:04 Zash > cool linked data
16:49:27 Zash Cool!
16:49:55 MattJ Standards are slipping
16:50:45 Zash If it doesn't fit in 140 characters then it's too long and complicated!!11
16:51:54 Zash -xep serious
16:51:54 Bunneh Zash: Bookmarks 2 (This Time it's Serious) (Standards Track, Experimental, 2018-07-22) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0402.html
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16:53:54 Zash > I love the name. -- Dave Cridland
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16:54:55 SamWhited That one tells you what it does in a clear way before making a joke, at least.
16:55:37 Ge0rG So we can settle on "MUC Self Ping (Schrödinger's Chat)"?
16:56:03 Ge0rG I'd rather prefer it to be the other way round
16:56:25 Zash Schrödinger's chat (Or, how I learned to stop worrying and self-ping in MUCs)
16:57:12 MattJ This one weird trick...
16:57:38 Ge0rG Zash [18:56]: > Schrödinger's chat (Or, how I learned to stop worrying and self-ping in MUCs) 👍
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17:01:00 martin Funn, just a few days ago I exectly implemented self ping in a bot I wrote.
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17:01:48 Ge0rG martin: did you do everything right?
17:03:12 martin Hope so. I send ping to muc participant and check for result IQ with the correct ID. At least it works. Have not yet looked at your proposal in detail.
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17:08:55 martin Ge0rG: uh, your proposal says server reply is type 'get'. I always got 'result' or 'cancel'.
17:10:02 martin I looked at 0199 so I did it this way.
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17:13:51 Ge0rG martin: sorry, copy & paste error in the example
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17:15:08 Ge0rG martin: no, wait. It's not the response, it's the reflection
17:16:33 martin I see.
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