jonaswit has a nice infographic on how slack handles notifications
KevIf we care about an example being valid XML without annotation (and I'm not sure that we do, but maybe), <!-- Client --> <!-- Server --> work.
jonasw<https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/2000/0*PV_09olld6K1l8jQ.> for those who don’t like javascript (yes, the dot is part of the URL)
Ge0rGAnd if we can get the (whatever component does the styling) to special-color "client:" and "server:" at the highest level, it'd be great.
jonaswKev, the text in front of the elements is valid XML, too ;-)
KevWell, yes, that's true.
Ge0rGjonasw: are you saying that any text is valid XML?
jonaswGe0rG, no
KevBut only if you wrap it all.
jonaswKev, you have to do that anyways when you have multiple elements
intosiKev: valid XML, sure. Valid XMPP, no :)
Ge0rGphew. I was frightened for a moment.
Kevjonasw: Yes, true.
jonaswintosi, comments wouldn’t be valid XMPP either
Kevintosi: Sure, but ... I don't think we're going to validate XMPP in the examples.
jonaswnot that strictly at least. I do have a prototype of a thing which validates the examples against the respective XML schemas
Ge0rGKev: but I was just going to copy-paste all XEP examples into my client's XML console!
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KevGe0rG: I wouldn't try to stop you :)
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Kevjonasw: That Slack article is very much the direction I've been pushing with XMPP, too.
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KevHaving servers know about unread counts and understand notifications.
Ge0rGLet's make XMPP a Slack clone!
Ge0rGKev: but the meta data! It's getting even more! And worse!
KevGe0rG: Or, let's use good ideas even if other people have them too (after us, in this case).
Ge0rGis now going to remodel the yaxim account creation flow into entering a display name and auto-slugifying that into a JID
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flow> Ge0rG> Yes. It's better to have an exchange in one example than in two or four
flowNot sure, the examples in RFC 6120 § 9 a very readable without using one big example block
Ge0rGflow: btw... did you want to offer me your help in bringing smack4 into yaxim, again? :)
flowGe0rG, No, I didn't want to offer my help, I did offer my help
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flowand that offer still stands
Ge0rGflow: the markup in https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6120.html#examples is rather minimal, the one in https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0409.html#activation is rather distracting imho
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flowGe0rG, yes, but that is a layout issue, maybe we need to invent an additinal <example/> thingy for sequences
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edhelas> This application can consume between ~130MB (p10) and ~960MB (p99) of memory depending on team activity and UI state.
edhelasdamn
flowmy point is that the thing that example encloses should be just XMPP XML, and not surrounding annotations. Using XML comments for annotations doesn't appeal to me too, because it may give the impression that XMPP allows them
jonaswhm
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flowIIRC Link Mauve (?) worked on validating examples with the provided schema. I'd really like to see that happen, as it helps finding issues in the examples *and* the schema
jonaswwe can do that already
jonaswsource: I have code which does it
flowand one precondition would probably be that the, possibly new to be created, <examples-foo/> thing is as pure as possible
flowjonasw, is it part of your xeplint?
jonaswyes
jonaswor at least of an earlier version
jonaswI think the current one doesn’t do it yet
flowthat's great, how many false negatives to you get?
jonaswthe issue is that many included schemas aren’t available
jonaswso validation breaks very easily
flow"aren't available"?
jonasw404
floware those schemas not included in the XEP?
jonaswthe ones defined by the XEP are, but sometimes they refer to other XEP’s schemas
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flowjonasw, ahh, but then it's not really a 404 if the other XEP is availble, isn't it? :)
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jonaswflow, it is, because the schema is included via an HTTP url
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jonaswguessing from which XEP the included schema originates is impossible without scanning over all XEPs
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MattJKev, and do you have a proposol on how to get anything nearly as complex as that graph standardized and configurable?
KevNot yet. My first interest is solving the unread problem, and then moving on to notifications.
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KevFWIW, a lot of it revolves around attaching references to messages, I think.
KevI think if we craft references sensibly, we can at least make mentions and things easier for a server to process.
jonaswKev, is there any hope that my feedback gets incorporated into References?
KevI've not touched References in a while, sorry. If you gave feedback and I've not addressed it, it should still be in my XSF TODO folder.
KevEdwin's got the lead of References updates at the moment.
jonasw2018-03-12 is the date of my email, if that helps
KevAlthough I keep giving him other stuff to do :)
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MattJIs the "unread problem" blocking bind2?
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KevNo, I don't think so.
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Ge0rGdo we have an agenda?
Ge0rGI'd like to add a proto XEP
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Dave CridlandGe0rG, We do; I've just not quite sent it yet. What's the ProtoXEP you wanted?
Ge0rGDave Cridland: I need to submit it yet.
jonaswsynopsis?
Dave CridlandGe0rG, Hurry!
jonaswDave Cridland, do you have file sharing notifications on your list?
Dave Cridlandjonasw, "fsn" and #681.
Bunnehjonasw: XEP-0050: Remove the status attribute from the request #681
https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/681
Ge0rG> XEP-xxxx: Schrödinger's Chat
> This protocol extension for XEP-0045 Multi User Chat allows clients to check whether they are still joined to a chatroom.
jonaswDave Cridland, #682
BunnehDave Cridland: XEP-0065, XEP-0363: Document exposing the service on the user’s domain #682
https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/682
Dave CridlandI love the name.
Ge0rGIt's been the name of the XMPP off-topic MUC for a while now.
jonaswDave Cridland, the vote on #672 is missing from your spreadsheet of doom
BunnehDave Cridland: XEP-0059: Add 'exact(-index)' attribute to RSM's <count/> and <first/> #672
https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/672
jonasw(you probably know that, but I thought I’d mention it anyways)
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Dave CridlandTed Sterr actually put the voting stuff into a CSV and sent it to me to paste in. I need to do that (maybe Real Soon Now)
jonaswawesome
jonaswcan I subscribe to that?
jonaswwould be useful to keep the pull requests clean
Dave Cridlandjonasw, It's public; let me dig out the link.
Dave Cridlandjonasw, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AZ-Sna6OiRG--b-mJMKv3XXfrn3Nehm0kAtlyJvImL0/edit?usp=sharing
jonaswI know your spreadsheet (I have it bookmarked, even), but the CSV service from Ted would be good too :)
jonaswalso, was #664 discussed?
Bunnehjonasw: XEP-0045: Add implementation note about {jabber:x:conference}x payload #664
https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/664
Dave Cridlandjonasw, Oh. I don't think it's a *service* as such...
jonaswoh, it was
jonaswtotally missed that all were +1 except for the typo :)
jonaswMattJ, no, I don’t need CSV specifically. I had the impression that Ted had some updated data which isn’t in that document yet
Dave Cridlandjonasw, I'll put that in now. Sadly doesn't cut/paste.
Dave Cridlandjonasw, If you want edit rights to the sheet, though, just ask.
jonaswif I were able to follow the council meetings closely enough to do that, I’d be taking minutes and/or not need that sheet at all, unfortunately :(
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Dave CridlandGe0rG, How imminent in that ProtoXEP?
Dave CridlandGe0rG, How imminent is that ProtoXEP?
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Ge0rGDave Cridland: it's 75% ready.
Ge0rGDave Cridland: if you put it on the agenda, I'll get it to the editor within the next 2h
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jonaswthe editor can’t promise to manage it to get it on the website and emailed today unless there is a PR before 18:30
jonaswthe editor can’t promise to manage it to get it on the website and emailed today unless there is a PR before 18:30 CEST
jonaswbut I’ll do my best
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Ge0rGjonasw: 18:30, okay.
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Dave CridlandGe0rG, I can't send the agenda out with a protoxep on it that's not been announced. Don't rush it - we'll do it next week if not this.
Ge0rGDave Cridland: I don't believe into those delays, and I'm going on holiday in three weeks.
Dave CridlandWell, I'll hold off as long as possible.
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jonaswDave Cridland, what’s your limit for delaying the agenda?
Dave CridlandWell, I (try to) send it out 24 hours in advance, which was 26 minutes ago. :-)
Dave CridlandBut in practise, Kev only starts complaining if it's not out by tomorrow morning.
KevAnd Kev's the only person who ever complains.
Dave CridlandI didn't say that.
Dave CridlandHinted, very strongly, but didn't actually say...
KevWhich might, disappointingly, mean Kev's the only person who puts aside time to review the agendums before each meeting.
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Ge0rGI try to take aside the time. I'm just too polite to complain.
Ge0rGDave Cridland: ETA is some time between 30 and 55mins from now. You could also wait until tomorrow morning and tell Kev to complain to me about it.
Dave CridlandWell, got the agenda item all written up ready, just got to hit sent when it's done.
Ge0rGThat's great preparation.
Dave CridlandFor once.
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jonaswGe0rG, Dave Cridland, check your (standards@) inboxes, the ProtoXEP is now at https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-selfping.html
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Dave CridlandAgenda launched!
jonaswimpact in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...
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Ge0rGDamn, my mobile email client has reset itself.
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SamWhitedis looking forward to reading it, but as amusing as the title is probably won't +1 until there's a descriptive title that actually tells me what the XEP does.
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Ge0rGSamWhited: "MUC Self Ping" is way too unexciting
SamWhitedGood. I like unexciting.
SamWhited(Schrödinger's Chat is very amusing though; maybe that could be an april fools XEP or something)
ZashMattJ: What was the term you pointed out in the ActivityPub spec?
ZashSamWhited: Boring specs are out
Zash> cool linked data
ZashCool!
MattJStandards are slipping
ZashIf it doesn't fit in 140 characters then it's too long and complicated!!11
SamWhitedThat one tells you what it does in a clear way before making a joke, at least.
Ge0rGSo we can settle on "MUC Self Ping (Schrödinger's Chat)"?
Ge0rGI'd rather prefer it to be the other way round
ZashSchrödinger's chat (Or, how I learned to stop worrying and self-ping in MUCs)
MattJThis one weird trick...
Ge0rGZash [18:56]:
> Schrödinger's chat (Or, how I learned to stop worrying and self-ping in MUCs)
👍
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martinFunn, just a few days ago I exectly implemented self ping in a bot I wrote.
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Ge0rGmartin: did you do everything right?
martinHope so. I send ping to muc participant and check for result IQ with the correct ID. At least it works. Have not yet looked at your proposal in detail.
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martinGe0rG: uh, your proposal says server reply is type 'get'. I always got 'result' or 'cancel'.
martinI looked at 0199 so I did it this way.
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Ge0rGmartin: sorry, copy & paste error in the example
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Ge0rGmartin: no, wait. It's not the response, it's the reflection