XSF Discussion - 2018-08-01

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  259. edhelas hi everyone
  260. Seve/SouL Greetings!
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  262. edhelas I was wondering it there is a way to quote/reference a pubsub item in a chat message ?
  263. edhelas there's muc#roominfo_pubsub that allows to link Pubsub nodes to a MUC, and I'm planning to display the related pubsub node items in the MUC UI, then you can comment/reference it
  264. jonasw edhelas, the References XEP has a syntax for that I think
  265. edhelas \o/
  266. jonasw ... a syntax which I don’t like, and I haven’t heard back from the authors yet on whether they’re willing to change it
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  517. Ge0rG jdev@conference.jabber.org will respond to pings to a non-existent nickname with not-allowed. Yay.
  518. jonasw this muc is fubar anyways
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  521. Ge0rG It will also respond not-allowed if I'm not joined.
  522. jonasw purrfect
  523. Ge0rG > this muc is fubar anyways Which is why I'm testing it.
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  525. Ge0rG jonasw: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/688
  526. jonasw I need an "Out of Order -- Overheated" sign
  527. jonasw Ge0rG, no revision block documenting the rename etc.?
  528. Zash Wasn't there a 'hot' in {xep user mood}?
  529. Bunneh Zash: User Mood (Standards Track, Draft, 2018-03-13) See: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0107.html
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  532. jonasw Ge0rG, another suggestion: I think a safe way to handle nickname-change-vs-ping-races is the following: when receiving a nickname change notification *and* a ping is in-flight, that ping is allowed to fail. issue a new ping.
  533. jonasw due to the stream ordering guarantees, you have to see the nick change notification *before* the error reply
  534. jonasw s/issue a new ping/issue a new ping and ignore the result of the other ping/
  535. Ge0rG jonasw: or do what I did in the PR ;)
  536. Ge0rG consider item-not-found as a valid response
  537. jonasw Ge0rG, but what if you never get a response because just in that moment your s2s interrupts?
  538. jonasw (talking about line 172+)
  539. jonasw my suggestion resolves MSN and own nick changes and it’ll work even with jdev@
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  543. Ge0rG jonasw: your suggestion requires more logic.
  544. jonasw Ge0rG, it’s also fail-safer
  545. Ge0rG jonasw: I can live with yet another rejoin ;)
  546. jonasw maybe put it in as suggestion for clients which want that amount of logic
  547. Ge0rG jonasw: PRs welcome
  548. jonasw on a ProtoXEP?
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  551. Ge0rG jonasw: it will stay a ProtoXEP until daniel approves or rejects.
  552. jonasw still, you wanna add your revision block there?
  553. Ge0rG jonasw: do I need to? I only asked for the revision block for the case that the funny name has to leave the title.
  554. jonasw for the sake of record-keeping and e.g. daniel who has to review it later, it makes sense to record it
  555. Ge0rG jonasw: as the Council didn't provide much feedback on the technical details, I'm not sure it will matter to daniel
  556. jonasw put it another way: if you don’t do it, I’ll do it
  557. jonasw but if you do it now, I can merge that now
  558. jonasw if you don’t do it now, I’ll drag it out because it’s too hot for me to think about stuff
  559. Kev Or until Daniel doesn't vote. There's a two week expiry period on voting.
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  572. Ge0rG Kev: that's an option as well. But I don't want to delay changes based on the Council feedback by two weeks because of that.
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  636. MattJ If I'm reading XEP-0060 right, you can't support max_items and simultaneously support unlimited items
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  638. MattJ Hmm, more simply - there is just no way to have an unlimited-item node
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  640. Zash Set max_items > 9000
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  642. MattJ Seems like quite a limitation for e.g. microblogging
  643. waqas 640K Ought to be Enough for Anyone <https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=2&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjDrZWPuczcAhUBvVkKHXecAi0QFjABegQIAhAB&amp;url=https%3A%2F%2Fquoteinvestigator.com%2F2011%2F09%2F08%2F640k-enough%2F&amp;usg=AOvVaw1pt8pBSu4B_G2oN6QxGUP0>
  644. waqas 640K Ought to be Enough for Anyone <https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&amp;rct=j&amp;q=&amp;esrc=s&amp;source=web&amp;cd=2&amp;ved=2ahUKEwjDrZWPuczcAhUBvVkKHXecAi0QFjABegQIAhAB&amp;url=https%3A%2F%2Fquoteinvestigator.com%2F2011%2F09%2F08%2F640k-enough%2F&amp;usg=AOvVaw1pt8pBSu4B_G2oN6QxGUP0>
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  652. Dave Cridland Set max_items to be, dynamically, 10k more than the current count.
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  656. Dave Cridland But yeah, you're right. If an implementation supports multiple items, it has to expose max_items.
  657. MattJ So people complained Prosody's PEP only supported a single item
  658. MattJ so how many did they want it to support?
  659. MattJ Let's say OMEMO used an item per device for keys, what would Conversations configure max_items as?
  660. Dave Cridland MattJ, Well, Prosody can support unlimited items, or at least, support any value for max_items.
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  663. Dave Cridland MattJ, I don't know without looking if there's an upper limit on max_items because it's a xs:positiveInteger, mind, but I'd expect that to be 2**31 at worst case.
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  666. Dave Cridland MattJ, That said, pre-keys are stored in PEP precisely to obviate the need for server code changes, and given that storing them in "the open" potentially leads to a kind of DoS(ish) attack which weakens the cryptographic properties, it's arguing to stick pre-keys in a specialized server-side service anyway.
  667. Dave Cridland MattJ, But bookmarks 2 uses multiple items, too, for better reasons.
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  673. lovetox Im not sure if im understanding you correctly, but omemo does not store multiple items
  674. lovetox it needs exactly one item per node
  675. Zash It could tho
  676. lovetox but it does not care if its more
  677. lovetox Zash i dont see the value
  678. Zash But it doesn't because it wouldn't work since only one item was guaranteed
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  680. lovetox im not sure what you are suggesting, but i dont see any value in storing anything omemo related in a multiple items node
  681. lovetox bookmarks is completely different use case
  682. lovetox and it makes sense there
  683. Zash individual prekeys could be removed when they are used up for example
  684. Zash and devices could publish their own key without having to make sure to not remove other devices keys
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  686. lovetox tricky, a prekey in a node is not of any value if you dont have the same prekey in storage
  687. lovetox its more foolproof if you just publish the new prekey list on each removal
  688. Zash I don't actually have any idea how OMEMO works, I'm just guessing
  689. lovetox no you brought up a valid argument
  690. lovetox one could do it that way, but then you would have to check from time to time, if your db stored prekeys are really the ones that are published
  691. lovetox the second idea, to store device ids per item is more interesting
  692. Zash Altho, it uses ... different nodes now? Or something?
  693. Zash Which in itself is awkward
  694. lovetox you mean the device id?
  695. lovetox its serves a multi purpose, 1. it shows you the way to the public key node
  696. MattJ Sorry, my question was quite unrelated to OMEMO, it was just an example (multiple items have been discussed in the past, and Prosody not supporting that was one of the reasons against it)
  697. lovetox 2. it shows other clients which devices are active devices
  698. MattJ Bookmarks is just as valid
  699. MattJ And probably a better example
  700. Zash Both specs bend backwards a bit to fit into "there can be only one item per node"
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  705. lovetox MattJ, why do you ask, because you think about a hard max limit for prosody?
  706. lovetox i guess its only natural that a server has something like that
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  708. lovetox i think nobody expects a server to support truly unlimited items
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  712. lovetox Zash i thought about it some more, and how would you chose a prekey? because more then one client can try to use a prekey while you are offline, you are supposed to choose one per random to reduce the chances that 2 c lients pick the same
  713. lovetox so you have to download all items of the node
  714. lovetox this does need 100 times the roundtrips you would need with one node, and needs much more time
  715. lovetox *one item
  716. lovetox If someone would want to improve the prekey use case, a server module is the best way
  717. Dave Cridland https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dbf75m-3HG7tssvI0L__99yNCj9mtPt4/view?usp=sharing (In progress) https://drive.google.com/file/d/1K7Y-5N3E0-swSOqmLHdgr7fyNHa0wjhj/view?usp=sharing (And done)
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  719. Dave Cridland lovetox, FWIW, I'd like to make prekeying a server module, but I'd just wwait until MLS is ready and use that.
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  721. lovetox yes this would take some impl complexity away from clients and additionally would make race conditions impossible
  722. Dave Cridland lovetox, Also means you can't "drain" prekeys, or look for especially weak ones to use, or ...
  723. Dave Cridland lovetox, It *also* means that a server can potentially inject other prekeys into a set, of course. That ought to be detectable, but it can allow for retention policies etc which are important in enterprise/government cases.
  724. lovetox hm really? would not still the client have to create the keys and suppy it to the server?
  725. Dave Cridland lovetox, Yes, but the server can conceal how many are present and loop over the last N instead of discarding them.
  726. Dave Cridland lovetox, Anyone trying to constantly request prekeys to see if this is the case is pretty easy to spot, too.
  727. lovetox hm no that is not allowed in the signal spec
  728. lovetox prekey is to used once only
  729. Dave Cridland lovetox, I know. But the MLS spec isn't Signal, just similar. And prekeys can't be used more than once mostly to make the cryptographic proofs simpler.
  730. Dave Cridland lovetox, The alternative is that if prekeys are exhausted, then you can't exchange messages (encrypted) anymore.
  731. Dave Cridland lovetox, So either that's a DoS waiting to happen, or else unencrypted comms.
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  734. MattJ lovetox [19:47]: > MattJ, why do you ask, because you think about a hard max limit for prosody? Yes, we need a limit
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