XSF Discussion - 2018-08-02

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06:15:00 jonasw 18:38:57 lovetox> one could do it that way, but then you would have to check from time to time, if your db stored prekeys are really the ones that are published you have to do that anyways because PEP services tend to "forget" your stuff from time to time
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06:47:21 Ge0rG Isn't it awesome how the xmpp and OMEMO identity models extend each other?
06:51:30 jonasw I sense sarcasm
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07:00:30 Guus Ge0rG, sarcasme? Nahhh...
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07:02:50 flow Ge0rG, while it's trivial to change that?
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07:11:12 Ge0rG flow: one of the strong opinions that I hold is: if you want cryptographic identities, you should have a protocol using those as a first-level citizen, not tacked upon another routing protocol
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07:15:29 flow Ge0rG, I know. But what do you suggest an xmpp based e2ee protocol should do? Using the public key as one's JID localpart?
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07:19:02 Ge0rG flow: I think there needs to be a stronger cryptographic link between the user identity, the key material and the JID.
07:19:43 Ge0rG flow: if I was doing things, I'd go with user keys that contain a signature of the JID, plus maybe an S/MIME like CA system
07:20:03 flow "signature of the JID"?
07:20:23 flow or a signed statement of the user's JID?
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07:22:07 Ge0rG The latter.
07:22:08 flow I'm also not sure how that prove ownership of the JID
07:22:26 Ge0rG It doesn't. But it means you can't move a key to a different JID
07:23:18 flow And preventing that is desirable because?
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07:31:54 Ge0rG flow: I'm not sure. It's just a bad gut feeling, nothing specific. Maybe abuse of sloppy implementations leading to impersonation of other users...
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07:36:45 flow Ge0rG, So if you would be designing things, the main difference would be an additional signed statement of the JID and that only because of a gut feeling that it would possibly beneficial. Or did I miss something?
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07:40:52 Ge0rG flow: the main difference is: I would go with a two or three layer architecture. A user has their identity key (or primary device key), and signs their secondary keys. Plus a means to have a CA signing user keys bound to JIDs
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07:44:14 flow Let me focus on the CA thingy first: What is the advantage over a CA verifying the "identity" by signing user keys compared to the public key in PEP? If you consider Let's Encrypt, then LE just checks that you have control over a certain "namespace", which is pretty much what public key in PEP provides.
07:45:40 flow What additional benefit do you envison could a CA provide?
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07:57:15 Ge0rG flow: good point. A public CA doesn't help in needing to trust the server, and no amount of OOB will help
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07:58:39 Ge0rG A corporate CA might help, but then it's probably operated by the same people the server is
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08:23:24 Ge0rG The major problem I see with OMEMO is multi-device key management. A client message of "You seem to have added a new device at 12:10, with the following fingerprint: ... - correct? [Yes] [No]" with a cross-key signing is vastly better than forcing every one of your contacts to manually verify that fact.
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08:34:13 Syndace Ge0rG: I like the idea a lot! Has this been discussed before?
08:34:35 Ge0rG Syndace: I suggested that to daniel back when OMEMO was being designed.
08:34:42 Ge0rG The idea was not approved.
08:35:05 Syndace Hmm, is there a mailing list thread or do you remember the reason?
08:35:13 Ge0rG Apparently because automatically trusting a new key which is signed by your friend's old key is a security issue.
08:35:23 Ge0rG Or maybe because signing keys is not trivial. Or both.
08:36:48 daniel Why not share the key?
08:37:10 daniel That seems easier than cross signing
08:37:23 Ge0rG daniel: what exactly do you mean by "share the key"
08:37:36 daniel Using the same key
08:37:39 daniel Like OX
08:37:47 Ge0rG daniel: ah, a user key as opposed to a device key
08:37:47 Syndace How do you get the key to the new device
08:37:59 Ge0rG Syndace: QR code with a red border:P
08:38:24 daniel Yeah. Or put it in the cloud
08:38:36 Syndace True, but then again, if one device gets compromised, all of them are
08:38:51 Ge0rG Syndace: yes
08:38:58 Ge0rG Syndace: but that doesn't matter in practice.
08:39:11 daniel And that's the same as cross signing
08:39:14 Ge0rG Syndace: if one if your devices is compromised, the attacker gets the local history of that device and everything sent to you
08:39:17 Syndace The cross signing issues don't matter as well
08:39:38 Ge0rG daniel: as stated above, I prefer user keys to device keys.
08:40:00 Ge0rG daniel: I thought that OMEMO required device keys anyway, so a two-tier key arch was my second best suggestion
08:40:14 jonasw daniel, no, it’s not the same as cross-signing. a malicious key added by cross-signing can be removed individually and the damage is contained. if all your devices share the same key, you have to roll your key over entirely to fix the damage. right?
08:40:17 Ge0rG or cross-signing
08:40:57 daniel How do you revoke a key though
08:41:51 Ge0rG start with a new user key.
08:42:20 daniel I mean in case of device keys
08:42:57 daniel What I'm saying is that I don't see the benefits of cross signing of sharing the private key
08:43:15 Ge0rG daniel: you *could* add revocations to cross-signatures.
08:44:08 jonasw hm
08:44:16 Ge0rG the point that I made in the beginning (and am still making) is: with the user managing their own keys, you have O(1) key management overhead. With the contacts managing the user's keys you have O(N) for N contacts, and you have zero decision agency
08:44:36 Ge0rG did Daniel just buy a new Pixel phone, or is the NSA impersonating? How am I supposed to know?
08:45:57 daniel It's not news that trust is hard
08:46:29 Ge0rG daniel: and you are making it even harder.
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08:46:50 daniel Than?
08:46:53 daniel Otr?
08:47:20 Ge0rG daniel: harder than needed
08:47:23 daniel Otr allowed for funny questions that I didn't knew the answer to
08:47:27 daniel That was pretty fun
08:48:04 Ge0rG daniel: are you still on holiday? Have a nice time and let's talk seriously when you're back
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09:43:48 flow Ge0rG, I still don't know how "xmpp and OMEMO identity models extend[ing] each other" fits into the picture, and what you suggest should change
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09:48:29 Ge0rG flow: apparently it wasn't clear to everybody. My statement was utterly sarcastic.
09:50:42 flow Ge0rG, so besides cross-signing keys, you are happy with omemo?
09:50:56 Ge0rG flow: I'm happy with ignoring its existence.
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09:51:34 flow It appears you are not very good at it
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09:52:52 Ge0rG flow: for practical matters, I am.
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10:04:01 Ge0rG obviously, I can't completely ignore it with my Council member hat on.
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10:25:04 Syndace alright honestly, why is the hate against omemo so huge in this whole community? I haven't had problems with it, not one single time.
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10:27:12 Syndace because checking fingerprints is a pain? because "This message is OMEMO encrypted, your client does not seem to support it"?
10:28:38 daniel A little bit of both probably. And people also like to complain about things
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10:29:28 Syndace that's far from enough reason to spread such hate
10:29:49 daniel That's the internet
10:32:38 Kev I don't think anyone /hates/ it, it's a protocol. I think several people see there are issues with it.
10:33:50 Ge0rG And other people think that E2EE should be enforced upon everyone, which leads to hate indeed.
10:34:24 MattJ that isn't specific to OMEMO
10:34:38 Ge0rG E2EE by means of OMEMO.
10:35:01 Ge0rG And then non-technical users complain that their messages don't get delivered, and we have one *additional* place to look for.
10:35:01 MattJ Someone spent months trying to contact me once, but they had mod_require_otr enabled on their server and I couldn't reply
10:35:14 MattJ and the only contact I had for them was their JID
10:35:58 MattJ I had a similar situation where I logged into my account with Conversations to test something, and then a bunch of people couldn't message me anymore
10:36:04 Ge0rG MattJ: should've sent them "?OTRv2 hi please disable mod_require_otr"
10:36:22 jonasw Ge0rG, more than one place, because OMEMO is such a mess of moving parts
10:36:30 Ge0rG MattJ: yes, publishing an OMEMO pre-key wreaks havoc to all your other clients.
10:37:56 MattJ I don't consider myself an "OMEMO hater" though, I think I've rarely mentioned it... I've many other things to complain about before I could get to that :)
10:38:14 MattJ jonasw, is it such a mess?
10:38:20 Syndace > MattJ: yes, publishing an OMEMO pre-key wreaks havoc to all your other clients. What?
10:38:44 jonasw MattJ, with the unstable PEP implementations out there and inconsistency in handling of OMEMO messages with and without surrogate body (on all levels), yes
10:39:17 MattJ Both seem like things that could be relatively easily fixed
10:39:44 MattJ A non-PEP key distribution protocol would be pretty trivial
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10:40:07 Ge0rG MattJ: > Both seem like things that could be relatively easily fixed The story of XMPP.
10:41:00 MattJ Ge0rG, some things are more easily fixed than others :)
10:41:11 MattJ OMEMO does not seem like our worst problem by far
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10:41:41 MattJ Syndace, some of my clients don't support OMEMO, I don't particularly want to use OMEMO either
10:41:57 Syndace What about: When starting a new chat, the client sends the messages unencrypted in the message body AND encrypted using OMEMO at the same time and based on whether the response is OMEMO encrypted the client decides whether to stick with omemo or go on plaintext
10:42:02 MattJ Syndace, I think my problem is more with the way Conversations enforces it, than the protocol
10:42:22 Ge0rG Syndace: doesn't work in multi-client scenarios
10:42:44 Syndace What does mutli client scenario mean? group chat?
10:42:53 MattJ Syndace, multiple clients on the same account
10:43:12 MattJ which just about every XMPP developer has
10:43:14 Syndace True, all of them need OMEMO to receive the message
10:43:36 Ge0rG all of them need to support OMEMO and have their prekey published and trusted by the sender
10:43:43 Ge0rG that's a large number of moving parts.
10:43:44 Syndace yeah i see
10:44:06 Ge0rG especially if you test multiple desktop clients, multiple mobile clients and do web sessions from time to time
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10:44:47 Ge0rG so you either end up with one client polluting your PEP with keys, leading to all your contacts sending you garbage, or with other corner cases of the protocol
10:44:50 Kev As long as clients don't go enabling omemo for you automatically, which would obviously be broken, I don't see this as particular problem.
10:44:55 Kev Or, rather, not something that can be solved.
10:45:13 Kev Because once you hit the "I want to e2e" switch, you *want* to avoid non-e2e clients getting plaintext.
10:45:45 Ge0rG Kev: I've heard that Conversations will auto-enable E2EE.
10:45:47 Kev And so you're just not going to flick that switch if you want to use non-e2e clients. Irrespective of whether that's omemo or other.
10:45:55 jonasw Ge0rG, Conversations *does* auto-enable E2EE
10:45:59 jonasw even if no keys are seen.
10:46:05 jonasw (you get a warninng and an option to disable when you send a message then)
10:46:19 Ge0rG Besides of this, there is no secure way to communicate the status of that hypothetical "I want to e2ee" switch.
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10:46:25 jonasw 't
10:46:43 Ge0rG now attempts to rhyme "e2ee" to "break free"
10:46:45 Kev Ge0rG: Well, there's HSTS-ish at least.
10:47:01 Kev Ge0rG: You want to rhyme it to "to break free"
10:47:03 Kev Then it works.
10:47:45 Ge0rG Kev: except that HSTS relies on a semi-corrupt CA hierarchy
10:48:21 MattJ Syndace, and here you get the problem described by XMPP developers. When we (e.g. I'm a server developer) have to deal with users who encounter these problems and want to know why their messages are not being delivered... it's extremely difficult to help them
10:48:25 Kev Do I not mean HSTS? I mean "Ok, I'm telling you now, don't use me in the future if I stop encrypting", anyway.
10:49:07 Ge0rG I don't want to be used by Kev
10:49:12 Ge0rG irregardless of E2EE
10:49:14 MattJ Syndace, I think that could be solved with better tooling (as well as improving client UIs)
10:49:22 jonasw Ge0rG, lol
10:49:42 Kev That's what you think, but you're mistaken (Ge0rG)
10:50:09 jonasw get a room
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10:50:28 Ge0rG jonasw: if only MUC invitations were working reliably.
10:50:31 Syndace I think it's a very bad idea that clients enable encryption even if they know that one of the receiving devices does not support it. Silently dropping messages is a super bad idea confusing WhatsApp-level users
10:51:04 Ge0rG Syndace: there is no notion of "user's devices" so it's impossible to know whether all devices support OMEMO
10:51:05 jonasw Syndace, problem is: if you don’t do that, servers (which are the bad guys™ in the e2ee scenario) can trivially downgrade you to plaintext
10:51:52 Kev jonasw: They have to do it from the get-go, though.
10:52:05 jonasw Kev, in your case, yes
10:52:10 Kev Well, depending on exactly what's implemented :)
10:52:12 Kev Right.
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13:30:22 Guus Made it just in time 🙂
13:30:39 MattJ The question is, who else did? :)
13:30:46 Guus You, for one. 🙂
13:31:45 MattJ nyco, around?
13:32:11 MattJ ralphm seems to have been popping in and out, I think he's on mobile
13:32:36 Guus nyco mailed that he was not going to be here today.
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13:32:39 Guus Martin?
13:32:41 MattJ Oh, missed that
13:33:36 MattJ Oh, Gmail marked that thread as "Not important" and I overlooked it
13:33:55 Guus that'll teach you to have such a filter activated on my name. 🙂
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13:34:21 Guus Shall we try this again next week?
13:34:40 MattJ Yeah, I think so
13:34:58 MattJ btw, Martin != Martin Hewitt
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13:35:10 Guus ah. didn't know, tx
13:35:34 Guus ok, I'm off for a bit then. ttyl!
13:35:52 MattJ See you :)
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15:41:42 Syndace So, I collected the OMEMO issues that I was able to filter from the short discussion earlier and wrote down my thoughts and ideas about them: https://hackmd.io/x70DAtLgSHqBzke49_vBrg I'd like to hear whether I grasped the core of the issues and whether my thoughts/ideas make any sense lol. Also please tell me what's missing and feel free to add your own ideas and comments.
15:42:02 Dave Cridland Syndace, Are you aware of the MLS work under way in the IETF?
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15:42:57 Syndace Oh boy, I was not
15:43:11 MattJ Dave Cridland, I'm assuming you are following it because you keep talking about it. How far is it from something everyone can implement?
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15:45:23 goffi Syndace: we can't send some data becose there is not full stanza encryption. I'm specially missing xml:lang like I've explained on the @standard list (and some other like message markup).
15:45:25 jonasw Syndace, section 1, Idea #2 seems waaaay too complex
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15:46:18 Syndace jonasw, well but I think it would fix all issues at once
15:46:25 Dave Cridland MattJ, Early days. But it's got some serious people working on it. You can actually get libraries and work with the current design, but it's approximately as scary as using TLS 1.3 draft 3 - chances of everything interopping in the future are pretty low.
15:46:27 jonasw at the cost of UX, Syndace
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15:47:05 Dave Cridland MattJ, I'm not saying we should switch now. I'm just saying we should be prepared to write off OMEMO as an experiment in a year or so.
15:47:21 Syndace jonasw: True
15:47:34 Syndace Dave Cridland: Well great.
15:47:37 jonasw solving bad UX by making it worse doesn’t seem good to me :)
15:47:48 Syndace jonasw: Not worse I think
15:47:50 MattJ Dave Cridland, I don't think that's a reason to not attempt to fix problems we have today in parallel
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15:48:15 MattJ If MLS is ready in a year, it's another 2-3 years before clients implement it widely enough
15:48:36 Syndace jonasw: Do you think it's a super UX killer if you have to select which devices you want to exchange encrypted data with?
15:48:36 MattJ meanwhile OMEMO is already quite popular today, even Pidgin supports it
15:48:37 Dave Cridland MattJ, Well, I think we have an opportunity to show XMPP can be leading edge in this kind of thing.
15:48:46 MattJ Sure, I'm up for that
15:48:59 MattJ But the carousel of E2EE solutions is also a bit of a joke by now
15:49:07 jonasw Syndace, yes, other systems have E2EE without such annoyinaces
15:49:08 Dave Cridland MattJ, Yes, indeed.
15:49:18 jonasw MattJ, no, pidgin *does not* support it.
15:49:24 MattJ Let's not leave what we have working today at 90% for the next 1-3 years
15:49:26 jonasw pidgin has two plugins both of which have their own quirks
15:49:38 jonasw and it doesn’t even "have" those plugins as in they’re distributed, no, you have to get them from somewhere.
15:50:08 MattJ jonasw, that worked against my argument, so I glossed over that (but yeah)
15:50:23 jonasw Dave Cridland, MattJ, if we’re going to do another round in the E2EE protocol carousel (good term by the way), I’d suggest to tackle (nearly) full stanza encryption, to at least give it a benefit over staying with status quo
15:50:36 Syndace jonasw: Is there a comparable system which allows multi-device e2ee where some devices do e2ee and some don't?
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15:50:59 jonasw Syndace, I don’t know, actually. but users won’t care about that
15:51:21 jonasw in the end, you can have signal/whatsapp/whatever on botth your laptop and your phone and it works just fine -- even if on your laptop, you just view stuff which is on your phone via webrtc or something
15:51:41 jonasw and competing against that with a complex selection dialog whenever you want to do e2ee, just nope
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15:52:52 Syndace jonasw: We could reduce it to "start private chat" which just starts the chat with all OMEMO-enabled devices and doesn't ask which devices should be included
15:53:00 Syndace That way it would be a button click
15:53:12 jonasw Syndace, and then we’re exactly where we are right now
15:53:20 MattJ but not by default
15:53:26 Dave Cridland jonasw, Sure. But given MLS also handles group chat (in fact, it *doesn't* handle anything but), that shoudl also provide impetus.
15:53:38 jonasw Dave Cridland, OMEMO handles group chat today
15:54:04 Syndace jonasw: Not really, because it's two seperate chats: One plaintext and one encrypted and the important thing: The user is aware that not all devices will get all messages
15:54:12 goffi jonasw: is there a spec for that?
15:54:14 Dave Cridland jonasw, Sort of. It handles groupchats by keying M times. MLS does it in one.
15:54:17 jonasw goffi, dunno
15:54:24 jonasw Dave Cridland, sorry, I have no idea
15:54:28 jonasw I just know that it is possible
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15:54:36 Dave Cridland goffi, Good grief no. Did you think OMEMO was one of those *open* standards?
15:54:37 goffi I know Conversation and Gajim handle it, but I think it's unofficial for now (i.e. no XEP)
15:54:46 jonasw Syndace, "but other systems do have e2ee by default, why can’t you?"
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15:56:04 Syndace jonasw: Because we don't forve you to use it. You can though, by clicking this button right here
15:56:08 Zash e2ee as an afterthought is going to be infinite pain whatever way you do it
15:56:31 MattJ goffi, I'm not sure a spec is really needed
15:56:44 jonasw Syndace, that doesn’t need any additional magic though. just *some* clients stepping back from the "OMEMO by default and everywhere" paradigm
15:56:46 MattJ goffi, it's just MUC, you fetch the keys of all participants
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15:57:10 Syndace goffi, I think they just parse the MUC-style JID into the normal JID and then use OMEMO as usual
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15:57:40 jonasw Zash, WhatsApp supposedly managed to do it as an afterthought
15:58:12 goffi Gajim told me last time I was in a MUC for testing, that it was working with member only rooms something like that (don't remember the message)
15:58:18 Syndace jonasw: WhatsApp has one binary and forces usage of e2ee, would be easy with these preconditions
15:58:22 goffi this should be explained in a XEP, even if it's short
15:58:48 Syndace (or three binaries for each OS, whatever)
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15:58:52 Zash jonasw: supposedly. also they're one company who do all the clients
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16:00:17 Dave Cridland I suspect we'll need an HSTS equivalent for E2EE, certainly, and then move plaintext->opportunistic->e2ee-always
16:00:55 Zash if clients were registered and known by the server then maybe
16:00:59 goffi we are still blocking a bunch of XEP with OMEMO by default
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16:01:12 goffi as long as there is no full stanza encryption
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16:02:41 Dave Cridland Zash, I suspect client registration has ot become a Thing, anyway. There's a whole lot of optimizations we could do if we had that.
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16:03:08 goffi no more last message correction, no more in band real time text, no more, no more language detection, no more markup.
16:03:32 Zash goffi: but we have the markdown-ish thing now /s
16:03:32 jonasw goffi, but markup is in the <body/> nowadays anyways!!
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16:03:39 Dave Cridland goffi, Honestly, you needn't argue for full-stanza. ESessions had that a decade ago, I have no idea why OMEMO doesn't.
16:03:41 Zash jonasw^5
16:03:55 goffi Zash: don't tell me :'(
16:04:02 jonasw Dave Cridland, possibly because time-to-market mattered more than doing things right?
16:04:07 jonasw Zash, ^5
16:04:23 Dave Cridland jonasw, Probably.
16:04:24 jonasw Dave Cridland, I’d love if we could maybe not repeat the same mistake with whatever MLS integration will happen.
16:04:47 Dave Cridland jonasw, Yes. I'd like to do that one right.
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16:05:50 Syndace Any info on how/whether MLS handles mixed plaintext-only clients and encrypting clients?
16:07:20 jonasw Dave Cridland, Zash, if it ever gets less hot so I can think straight for more than 5 minutes in a row, I’m going to try to make some device identification thing in prosody. I need per-device passwords anyways.
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16:09:54 Syndace If we had device identification we could issue a simple warning: "If you send this message encrypted, only jid: phone and jid: laptop can receive the message. jid: web and jid: work can not."
16:10:59 goffi I would argue that I rather use OX by default, I'm less interested in PFS that in mentioned features.
16:11:12 Zash jonasw: I hear MattJ was working on that
16:11:15 goffi and OX do full stanza encryption.
16:11:39 MattJ jonasw, er, yeah, I have a mod_device_tracker
16:11:52 MattJ I can publish it later today or tomorrow
16:11:54 jonasw MattJ, I’m thinking about doing things in SASL
16:11:57 pep. MattJ: tracker!! I knew it
16:12:12 MattJ pep., it's ok, it asks for consent
16:12:24 Zash jonasw: FWIW you could have per-device usernames too (or username+device), since they need have no relation to the bound JID
16:12:51 jonasw Zash, I was more thinking of using the second identity one can pass in sasl
16:13:03 jonasw if it’s a full JID with the bare JID equal to the one you’re authing for, the resource is the device ID
16:13:15 Zash jonasw: modulo client support
16:13:23 jonasw Zash, yeah...
16:13:34 jonasw but do clients support getting forced to a different bare JID?
16:13:41 Zash Sure
16:13:52 jonasw I need to have tests for that.
16:13:56 jonasw I’m not sure what aioxmpp would do
16:13:58 Zash +1
16:14:08 Zash Moar tests :)
16:14:14 jonasw Zash, fun fact, I’ll probably go for device@username for per-device-passwords in IMAP :)
16:14:18 Dave Cridland jonasw, See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cridland-kitten-clientkey-00
16:14:31 Zash jonasw: Have you noticed the client-uses-full-bind-something pidgin sends in the stream start?
16:14:47 jonasw Zash, no
16:14:58 Zash jonasw: Which had something to do with GTalk
16:15:16 jonasw Dave Cridland, in my scenario, the devices would never learn the actual account password
16:15:24 jonasw which is something I’d like to have
16:15:28 jonasw actually, this is uspposed to be client certificates lite
16:15:34 jonasw because client certs are hard
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16:15:40 Zash It could assign you a different hostname even, if you had whatever the hosted domain thing was
16:15:55 jonasw Zash, crazy stuff
16:16:19 jonasw need to keep that in mind; that might be useful to have to support legacy clients
16:16:26 Zash sure
16:16:44 Zash There are some modules in Prosody where the SASL username ends up differently from the JID localpart
16:16:59 jonasw interesting
16:17:07 Zash Some PHP forum one for example
16:17:31 Zash One where you can have characters in the username that don't pass nodeprep
16:17:58 Dave Cridland jonasw, Do a PIN-check on another session? But anyway, I'm happy to knock around idea on that with you.
16:18:12 jonasw Dave Cridland, sounds good, but as I said .... it’s too hot here to think
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16:19:39 jonasw Dave Cridland, my idea was somewhat like this: - to add a new device, you generate an auth-code on your first device and enter that in the new device. it performs either something SASL2 or a variant of IBR to set a password for itself (the password is never shown to the user) - it will always authenticate with that password (somewhat like your CLIENT-KEY I suppose) - server can now track the device, which also means that a user can revoke any device at any time (e.g. lost or stolen)
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16:20:59 jonasw Dave Cridland, IIRC, client key had the issue that when the counter goes out-of-sync, you need to re-authenticate using the normal SASL mechanisms?
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16:23:16 Dave Cridland jonasw, Yes. It's designed as a "Remember this device" to go along with TOTP, and not exactly wehat you're after.
16:23:37 jonasw mmmhm
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16:24:48 Dave Cridland jonasw, But that counter is intentional - anyone stealing the credential from the client cannot use it from another device if the original device is still in use - the counter gets out of sync and the server-side token is killed.
16:25:09 jonasw I think CLIENT KEY is orthogonal to this, yeah. It could be used in a, as you say, "Remember this device" fashion to temporarily replace the SCRAM-with-device-password+TOTP flow if TOTP is used,.
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16:25:21 jonasw Dave Cridland, yupp, that’s good
16:25:50 Dave Cridland jonasw, Oh, and it's designed such that you can't DoS the token by guesswork or stealing it from the server.
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16:26:13 jonasw it looked pretty solid when I looked at it back then, yeah
16:26:20 jonasw but IANAC
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16:27:24 Dave Cridland C = Cryptographer?
16:27:26 jonasw yes
16:27:30 Dave Cridland Nor am I, but I play one on TV.
16:27:35 jonasw :D
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16:43:47 pep. Syndace: in your pad, section 4 before idea1, you are confusing omemo and e2ee. e2ee doesn't require PFS
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16:49:50 Syndace pep.: Right.
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16:50:48 jonasw people suggesting: > In general, a short “yo, please deactivate OMEMO” plaintext answer should be enough. But this can be annoying if it happens too often! clearly have no idea at which level of technological literacy some people operate
16:51:27 pep. Indeed
16:51:40 jonasw Syndace, append to your list please "I re-installed Conversations and now I can’t access my history anymore", because people aren’t expecting PFS.
16:53:05 Syndace jonasw: lol, yes I know that some people don't know what OMEMO is and how to disable it, come on don't take this so literal :D
16:55:43 pep. Syndace: this is a real world issue :x
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16:57:32 Syndace jonasw: Better example of what to write?
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16:58:40 Andrew Nenakhov Our take on encrypted conversations that we plan to implement soon is to have separate encrypted and decrypted chats. Like telegram's secret chats.
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16:58:56 vanitasvitae Syndace: after having implemented OX (OpenPGP for XMPP) I think one huge improvement that OX is having over OMEMO is the ability to encrypt arbitrary extension elements. I think full stanza encryption is rather unrealistic for xmpp, but you can put all the sensitive data into an encrypted container and be done :)
16:59:29 vanitasvitae We should really port this to OMEMO / put it in a standalone XEP and let OX and OMEMO depend on it
16:59:31 Andrew Nenakhov Telegram also solves multidevice e2ee quite simply: secret chats are one on one device only.
16:59:43 Syndace Andrew Nenakhov: Interesting, who is "our"?
17:00:01 Andrew Nenakhov Xabber.
17:00:23 vanitasvitae Andrew Nenakhov: the single device part is one of the things that keep me from using secret chats :/
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17:01:06 Andrew Nenakhov I also hate pfs obsession
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17:01:21 lovetox nobody has a pfs obsession
17:01:27 lovetox its just what we have
17:01:34 Andrew Nenakhov Publish a pgp key, share it to all devices, have your history everywhere.
17:01:38 vanitasvitae Moxie does :D
17:01:40 lovetox we cant just snip our fingers and invent super secure encryption protocols
17:01:54 lovetox Andrew Nenakhov, yes you can do that with OX
17:01:56 Andrew Nenakhov If you care that much about privacy, don't lose that key.
17:02:22 lovetox Omemo was just there first, and its easier to implement
17:03:10 Andrew Nenakhov > Moxie does :D A lot of other guys do too. Constantly bombard our issue trackers with demands.
17:03:36 vanitasvitae :D I have heard of that infamous bug report ;)
17:05:36 Syndace What about a mechanism to synchronize local history from another device? xD
17:05:47 Andrew Nenakhov :-D
17:06:07 Andrew Nenakhov That bug report is, yes, epic
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17:07:56 MattJ Syndace, that has been discussed in the past - the protocol is already there - XEP-0313 could work between clients just as it does between client and server
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17:08:03 Andrew Nenakhov Btw, why would people want "full stanza encryption"?
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17:08:38 Andrew Nenakhov If you encrypt whom you address stanza, it'll never be delivered 😂
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17:09:00 vanitasvitae At FOSDEM I heard the idea of establishing encrypted XML streams between clients :D
17:09:10 lovetox obviously not the top element..
17:09:12 MattJ vanitasvitae, that has also been discussed and done before
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17:09:35 labdsf MattJ: gajim recently removed this feature
17:09:41 Syndace MattJ: Wondering how serious to take this idea
17:10:17 Andrew Nenakhov What is there to encrypt besides top element 😂😂😂
17:10:26 lovetox every child element?
17:10:33 Syndace Would be pretty cool to have history even on fresh OMEMO devices
17:10:43 MattJ Andrew Nenakhov, OOB element for file transfers, for example
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17:11:59 Andrew Nenakhov > Would be pretty cool to have history even on fresh OMEMO devices As I understand OMEMO, this wish goes against all it stands for. :-/
17:12:38 Syndace Not if you can sync the local history from your other devices or your chat partners
17:12:49 labdsf Andrew Nenakhov: Signal has synchronization between start vices
17:12:59 labdsf Between devices*
17:13:27 lovetox it can provide this, because it does not have to deal with different clients
17:13:42 Syndace lovetox: Doesn't sound very hard to throw the serialized XML into OMEMO instead of a plaintext message for nearly-full-stanza-encryption
17:13:43 lovetox this would mean making a protocol for exchanging databases
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17:14:29 lovetox who said full stanza encryption is hard? as some people point out this exists probably for a decade in xmpp
17:16:22 Syndace What about substanzas that are meant for the server (like hints)?
17:16:40 lovetox you obviously cant encrypt them because then they are useless
17:17:48 Syndace I was wondering whether to treat them in a special way or to just ignore them
17:17:49 lovetox with full stanza encryption we dont mean full like everything
17:18:00 lovetox we mean all data that are not necessary for the server to function
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17:19:57 Andrew Nenakhov > Andrew Nenakhov: Signal has synchronization between start vices Doing that is definitely possible in a number of ways, every single of them denying all advantages their protocol has over PGP.
17:20:49 Andrew Nenakhov You can sync history directly between devices. You can share keys and download and decipher messages from server archive
17:21:44 Andrew Nenakhov But why bother using omemo if you plan to do that?
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17:22:18 Syndace signal uses omemo aswell (basically)
17:22:32 Syndace why do you think they do it that way? because its convenient probably
17:23:56 vanitasvitae If you do the backup exchange using OMEMO, you dont lose any advantages of OMEMO
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17:25:14 vanitasvitae if you do it via OpenPGP however, your whole history is on the server twice, once OMEMO encrypted and once via OpenPGP. In that case you lost pfs due to the OpenPGP copy which can in theory be decrypted in the future.
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17:26:01 vanitasvitae So for backup exchange you'd want to generate a single-use key.
17:26:09 Andrew Nenakhov Why twice? One openpgp is enough.
17:26:33 Andrew Nenakhov Backup exchange is also bad ux by the way.
17:26:48 Andrew Nenakhov You want your messages everywhere at once.
17:27:10 Andrew Nenakhov So in the end if you want security and convenience , just run your own server.
17:27:15 vanitasvitae Then you need OpenPGP and you cannot have pfs
17:27:45 Andrew Nenakhov Because in xmpp the only ones who are affected by e2ee are server operators.
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17:32:21 goffi ho Gajim removed direct stream encryption? What a pity, I find it the most secure way if you have something really sensitive to say
17:33:22 goffi I guess same effect can be achieved with XEP-0396 nowaday
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17:39:31 lovetox Gajim never head direct stream encryption
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17:39:49 lovetox and why is it a pity if no client supported that?
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17:59:06 Link Mauve Hi, what should happen with MAM when a client did a <query/> without specifying a @queryid? Should the <result/>s also not contain one?
17:59:33 Link Mauve So far I made it required in my parser but I guess it should be optional due to that.
18:00:28 lovetox yes Link Mauve correct
18:00:53 lovetox dont add a query element if the client doesnt set one
18:01:03 lovetox makes no sense, because its a identifier for the client
18:01:13 lovetox if it set none it doesnt need it
18:01:48 Link Mauve Yup.
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18:15:24 Link Mauve Wut, the changelog of RSM says that the <index/> element has been removed, but it is still present thrice in the text (including twice in examples).
18:15:43 jonasw maybe a different <index/> element? *hope*
18:17:11 flow Link Mauve, attribute vs element?
18:17:13 Link Mauve Nope, I checked already.
18:17:19 Link Mauve flow, nope.
18:17:43 flow ahh right, the elemnt still appears in the text
18:18:04 Link Mauve Hmm, I think I should split my RSM element into query and result, that would make it a lot easier to understand what’s going on.
18:18:59 flow Who is 'vm'?
18:19:49 Link Mauve Someone from before my time, I guess.
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18:25:25 jonasw This one just came up in another room: https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0238.html
18:25:37 jonasw do we maybe want to deprecate/obsolete/reject that?
18:25:43 jonasw it seems to be ... way out of date
18:25:51 jonasw and there doesn’t seem to be any interest in refining it
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18:35:51 Link Mauve jonasw, +1, although in the past we’ve considered deferred as a tombstone.
18:36:05 Link Mauve But I’m still +1 to explicitly obsolete it.
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18:36:15 jonasw yeah, deferred isn’t explicit enough
18:36:22 Link Mauve And I think we shouldn’t let XEPs stay in limbo like that forever.
18:36:54 Yagiza If I implement deffered XEP in my software, may it change its status?
18:37:31 Link Mauve Yagiza, you should send an email to standards@ to explain why imo, then someone will most likely revisit it.
18:37:32 Zash Yagiza: Possibly, especially if you write to the standards@ list or the author with feedback
18:37:32 jonasw Yagiza, there are two types of deferred XEPs (and you cannot tell them apart by the status): those which are abandoned, and those which are "good enough" and which are silently implemented everywhere
18:37:59 jonasw Yagiza, so if you implement a deferred XEP, post any feedback you have to standards@ (even if it’s just "implemented it, it solves my issue X"), that might trigger advancement to Draft
18:38:07 Link Mauve You may also send a change, anything, something you found missing/misformulated/anything in the text, which would automatically put it back to Experimental.
18:38:12 Zash jonasw: I'd say there's some gray area inbetween, where the author just happens to be busy with other stuff
18:38:26 jonasw Zash, I’d call that "abandoned", even though that’s harsh
18:38:30 Link Mauve Zash, can confirm. :-°
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18:39:09 Zash jonasw: sounds intentional then, which it might not be
18:39:26 jonasw hm, ok
18:39:40 Yagiza I just want to try implementing XEP-0371 in my client as a good solution for file transfer.
18:40:19 jonasw Yagiza, uh... in combination with XEP-0234?
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18:41:10 Yagiza Yes, of course
18:41:20 Yagiza Also, its implementation may increase chances of successful Jingle RTP session.
18:44:26 Link Mauve This one is an instance of the good kind of deferred XEP.
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18:45:32 Yagiza Link Mauve, so, if I implement it, it may make things better?
18:45:42 jonasw yes
18:45:53 Yagiza Ok. Sounds good.
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18:51:23 Zash Higher chance of things becoming better if you send feedback to standards :)
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18:57:55 Link Mauve In pubsub#event, I see @node being defined on item, but I don’t see it used anywhere in the XEP.
18:58:04 Link Mauve What and where could it be used for?
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18:58:28 Zash Section?
18:58:37 Link Mauve XML Schema.
18:59:26 Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0060.html#example-2 that @node ?
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18:59:49 Link Mauve This is on items, not on item.
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19:00:14 Zash Wait where do you see a node attr?
19:00:43 Link Mauve Line 7007 of the XML file in the xeps repository.
19:01:21 Zash Which object? :)
19:01:39 Link Mauve What do you mean?
19:01:56 jonasw https://github.com/xsf/xeps/blob/master/xep-0060.xml#L7001
19:02:06 jonasw Link Mauve, might’ve been a mistake
19:02:11 jonasw node doesn’t make sense on item
19:02:20 Zash semi-serious reference to git object
19:02:35 jonasw hm, unless items from different nodes are batched in a single event
19:02:46 Link Mauve I’ve never seen that done.
19:02:57 Link Mauve But everytime I read this XEP, I learn new things.
19:03:10 jonasw everybody seems to say that about '60
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19:06:57 Link Mauve And items@ver isn’t specified in the schema. :|
19:07:07 jonasw lovely
19:07:39 Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/jep-0060-1.7.html#schemas-event https://xmpp.org/extensions/attic/jep-0060-1.8.html#schemas-event
19:07:43 Link Mauve Oh no, this is commented in the XML file.
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19:08:05 jonasw Link Mauve, where?
19:08:25 jonasw ah nevermind
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19:12:11 Link Mauve Is it actually possible to have a <{pubsub#event}items/> with neither <item/>s nor <retract/>s inside?
19:12:21 Yagiza Zash, that's implied
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21:23:55 Link Mauve “19:09:00 vanitasvitae> At FOSDEM I heard the idea of establishing encrypted XML streams between clients :D”, yes, XEP-0246, XEP-0247 and XTLS. ^^
21:24:31 vanitasvitae Link Mauve: yeah I think we talked about it right?
21:25:14 Link Mauve Yes, on the last day, outside K.
21:26:17 vanitasvitae Right :D
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