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SamWhited
16:33:57
Implementing direct TLS in a library and running into the mixing of SRV records again. We really need to change this, it makes no sense. I'm ignoring it because I don't want to manually try to mix the records (the DNS library handles ordering SRV records for you, but doesn't let you specify two different services because that's not how SRV works)
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SamWhited
16:34:43
And if the server operator wants to prefer StartTLS they can always just not set SRV records, so I don't see that it actually provides any benefit.
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SamWhited
16:45:24
Also if we mix them and one has a "." record (no such service), what does that even mean? No XMPP server at this address, or no direct TLS at this address? What if one has "." and one has a proper record?
Zash
16:45:51
Nonsense is what it means
Zash
16:45:53
And headaches
SamWhited
16:46:40
Yah, these rules drive me nuts.
Dave Cridland
16:46:51
SamWhited, Arnt Gulbrandsen disagrees with "that's now how SRV works". ✎
Dave Cridland
16:46:59
SamWhited, Arnt Gulbrandsen disagrees with "that's not how SRV works". ✏
Dave Cridland
16:47:42
SamWhited, Also I really hope you meant "selecting" rather than "ordering".
SamWhited
16:47:51
The SRV spec agrees; as far as I can tell. At least, I can't find anything that tells you to treat two services as one service and how you handle things like a "no such service" record.
SamWhited
16:48:03
What's the difference?
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Dave Cridland
16:49:53
SamWhited, The SRV spec says "This is a default, but the application protocol can say whatever it likes". And you can't "order" SRV records, as such. I mean, there's no fixed order of multiple SRV records at the same priority - you could order them but they'd be an unstable order.
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Dave Cridland
16:51:04
SamWhited, So yeah, basically you can't use your DNS library's built in SRV selection. But then, you can't with - possibly - any protocol that's formally defined to use SRV now.
SamWhited
16:52:09
Seems like we added pointless complexity because other protocols *might* have pointless complexity then.
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Dave Cridland
16:53:51
SamWhited, Well, no, we've been following along with other existing protocols. Doesn't mean we can't change it. I'm just looking at RFC 6168 versus RFC 8314 now.
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SamWhited
16:54:08
and there's still no indication what '.' means.
SamWhited
16:54:26
I'll go look at those
SamWhited
16:54:53
when I'm back at my desk if I haven't already
Dave Cridland
16:55:54
SamWhited, RFC 6168 covers that, too (and uses mixed priority as we do for IMAPs/IMAP, for instance). RFC 8314 updates that to say clients should always prefer "Implicit TLS".
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Dave Cridland
16:56:19
I'd be absolutely fine with updating to match that, by the way.
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Ge0rG
18:50:21
What's "Implicit TLS"?
jonasw
18:50:27
Ge0rG, non-STARTTLS
Ge0rG
18:50:35
Is it the opposite of "Direct TLS" or of "Explicit TLS"?
jonasw
18:50:36
others call it Direct TLS
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Ge0rG
18:50:40
And what's explicit?
Ge0rG
18:50:51
is it explicit to use a TLS port or to use a TLS command?
jonasw
18:51:04
Explict is the use of STARTTLS
jonasw
18:51:08
are you genuinely interested or trolling?
jonasw
18:51:13
cause I’d like to not waste my evening with trolling :)
Ge0rG
18:51:14
people are bad at names.
jonasw
18:51:17
yes
jonasw
18:51:19
we knew that
Ge0rG
18:51:34
No, I was genuinly confused what that means. Thanks
jonasw
18:52:05
you’re welcome :)
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Dave Cridland
19:48:15
Ge0rG, "Implicit TLS" is what RFC 8134 uses: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8314#section-3
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Dave Cridland
19:48:52
Ge0rG, I don't *love* the term. But it's too late to change the RFC, and it's no worse than any other term really.
Zash
19:49:06
It's accurate
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Ge0rG
19:50:17
I'm not sure it is, but I'm a confused non native speaker
Ge0rG
19:51:07
I like Direct TLS vs STARTTLS as terms
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Dave Cridland
19:58:18
Ge0rG, Sure. But if the rest of the internet is using a different term, I'm fine with changing.
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Ge0rG
19:59:33
Dave Cridland: if by "the rest of the internet" you mean a bunch of nerds pretty much similar to us, I'm not sure I agree.
Zash
20:00:29
Let's call it wannabe-ipsec
jonasw
20:00:48
:D
pep.
20:01:15
Zash, nooo
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Dave Cridland
20:01:57
Ge0rG, Well, I mean the IETF, or at least the Internet Mail folks, who are as similar to us as is possible to be (indeed, half of them have been involved in XMPP stuff at the IETF).
Ge0rG
20:03:12
Dave Cridland: maybe they just didn't spend any time on the term, and whatever wasn't absolutely idiotic did stick?
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jonasw
20:03:29
do you seriously believe that such a thing wasn’t bike-shedded?
Dave Cridland
20:03:33
Ge0rG, Sure. But that's basically what we did.
jonasw
20:03:33
it’s terminology after all
Dave Cridland
20:03:43
jonasw, I think it's nomenclature, actually.
Dave Cridland
tries to look innocent.
20:03:57
jonasw
20:04:04
well played
Zash
20:04:19
Psst, http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3907
Ge0rG
20:04:51
jonasw [22:03]:
> do you seriously believe that such a thing wasn’t bike-shedded?
Yes. Otherwise they'd have come up with a better term.
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Zash
20:05:25
Ge0rG: Terminology by committee!
jonasw
20:05:25
I don’t find it extremely bad
Ge0rG
20:06:04
Zash: that directly brings back my question of Nickname vs Name vs Screen name.
jonasw
20:06:19
screen name is good in en
Ge0rG
20:06:22
jonasw: I do.
jonasw
20:06:30
but I don’t think it translates well in any language I know
Ge0rG
20:06:53
"Anzeigename" is moderately cumbersome
jonasw
20:07:06
also I’m not sure it would be clear to the typical user what this even is
jonasw
20:07:23
(it’s not more cumbersome than "Screen name", although that’s probably hard to judge) ✎
jonasw
20:07:32
(I find it not more cumbersome than "Screen name", although that’s probably hard to judge) ✏
Zash
20:07:40
What do other things call it?
Ge0rG
20:07:49
Yeah, maybe "screen name" is bad as well
jonasw
20:07:51
probably just "Name"
Ge0rG
20:08:24
Still better than Implicit TLS
Ge0rG
20:09:04
(it's not implicit because you do a TLS handshake)
jonasw
20:09:25
but it’s implicit regarding the lower layers
jonasw
20:09:32
which isn’t the case with STARTTLS
jonasw
20:09:49
but yeah, Direct TLS is less ambiguous in that regard
Zash
20:09:52
START THY TLS! is pretty explicit
jonasw
20:10:12
what just happened: https://sotecware.net/images/dont-puush-me/IrUXvlA_MXTM4ecUHM4ve-TDSXUcHRHBN8_rU85-P_k.png
Zash
20:10:24
jonasw: hm?
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Zash
20:10:39
jonasw: Why there's a room with >300 participants out of a sudden?
jonasw
20:10:47
more than one room with >200 at least
jonasw
20:11:13
and kuketz-blog and conversations being kicked off the 1st/2nd position in the listing, which they’ve had for weeks now
Zash
20:11:15
jonasw: Auto-injected auto-join bookmarks, if my german comprehenion is sufficiently accurate
jonasw
20:11:26
ah, neat
Zash
20:11:26
jonasw: for all new(?) registrants
jonasw
20:11:31
(why tho)
jonasw
20:11:32
ah
jonasw
20:11:37
for new ones it might make sense
jonasw
20:11:50
hmm
jonasw
20:11:59
jeopardises the listing a bit, but let’s see how things play out
Zash
20:12:00
Someone said because users complained about lack of notice about some downtime
jonasw
20:12:06
m(
Zash
20:12:13
It was only on Twitter or somesuch
jonasw
20:12:14
isn’t there mod_announce for that?
Zash
20:12:21
Myeah
jonasw
20:12:29
you can even send a type="headline" which will steal your focus if you’re using pidgin
jonasw
20:12:37
anyways, heading to bed now, see ya folks
Ge0rG
20:15:05
I'm not sure how it helps to announce downtime in a MUC
Zash
20:15:27
Ge0rG: If all your users are in it...
MattJ
20:15:29
Works for offline users without MAM
MattJ
20:15:41
(while the server is up, of course)
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Ge0rG
20:17:39
Zash: if your server is down. Also Schrödinger's Chat
Zash
20:18:44
Ge0rG: I understood this as notice about future planned downtime
Zash
20:18:49
*before* the actual downtime
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