XSF Discussion - 2018-08-09

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05:55:53 Seve/SouL Thanks for sharing pep. I will take a look
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06:01:50 jonasw meh videos
06:03:00 flow my thought exactly
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06:04:42 Seve/SouL I guess it's more 'sound' than video :)
06:04:49 Seve/SouL But I understand
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06:05:46 jonasw I’d love to skim it to gauge applicability/interest :(
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07:49:45 pep. jonasw: so much negativity ;)
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10:34:39 pep. jonaws, I've got text notes here for you: https://bpaste.net/raw/6e36088b2615
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13:31:43 Guus Board o'clock
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13:32:00 Guus No MattJ today, nor Nyco. RalphM, Martin?
13:33:19 nyco so finally, I can make it
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13:34:50 Guus 🙂
13:34:57 Guus seems to be just you and me though
13:37:40 nyco what's the timeout value? 10 minutes? 😉
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13:38:08 MattJ I'm kinda here, but can't promise I won't need to disappear
13:38:22 MattJ And I'm multitasking
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13:38:48 nyco so, do we do that meeting?
13:39:13 nyco if MattJ is half here, then we are 2.5, is that a quorum? 😉
13:39:46 Guus Let's skip until next week, unless someone wants to address something urgently
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13:40:18 nyco next week, I'll a very constrained bandwidth, I think I'll have to skip it
13:40:32 nyco I'll know better on Wednesday
13:42:22 Martin Guus: I am not the xsf Martin 😉
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13:44:24 Guus Martin, I know, but I'm not aware of XSF's Martins other nickname 🙂
13:44:31 Guus nyco, ok, please let us know
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13:44:42 Guus doesn't seem that there's much interest in continuing today
13:44:50 nyco yep
13:44:52 nyco thx
13:45:19 Guus until we meet again!
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14:25:58 edhelas https://drewdevault.com/2018/08/08/Signal.html
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15:11:25 jonasw okay wat
15:11:27 jonasw something is kaputt
15:11:39 jonasw I can’t access that, and I can’t access stackoverflow.
15:11:52 Ge0rG jonasw: your internet is b0rked!
15:11:55 jonasw yes, but why
15:11:57 jonasw it is not DNS
15:12:03 edhelas jonasw did you tried HTTP over XMPP ?
15:12:06 jonasw edhelas, no
15:12:32 jonasw IPv4 seems to be kaputt
15:12:47 edhelas IPv6 is the new IPv4
15:13:10 jonasw and the v6 of drewdevault.com is kaputt
15:13:13 jonasw that explains it
15:13:16 jonasw gonna reboot the router thing
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15:17:17 jonasw odd
15:17:24 jonasw also interesting how long I didn’t notice that v4 was b0rked
15:17:33 edhelas it's maybe a good thing
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15:18:34 Ge0rG > Last time I've tried Matrix (this spring) with a group of peers, my E2E rooms were full of random "failed to decrypt" and lots of out-of-band communications "hey, are my messages working for you today?" I'm glad Matrix is having the same issues as XMPP with E2EE
15:18:53 jonasw :)
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15:26:53 moparisthebest What issues does XMPP have with it? :)
15:27:29 jonasw moparisthebest, talk to the folks who regularly get OMEMO errors.
15:27:31 moparisthebest Seriously though, for normal users who only have a phone it works flawlessly
15:27:49 Ge0rG I sent you an OMEMO encrypted message but your client doesn’t seem to support that. Find more information on https://conversations.im/omemo
15:28:26 jonasw I sent you an OMEMO encrypted message but your client doesn’t seem to support that. Find more information on https://conversations.im/omemo
15:28:36 moparisthebest jonasw: likely only advanced users who like to flip knobs in advanced settings and try a lot of clients
15:29:02 moparisthebest Ie, most people here, but no normal people
15:29:03 Ge0rG moparisthebest: or people who try to configure a private MUC
15:29:37 jonasw moparisthebest, we have fairly normal people around at xmpp@ who have (likely) OMEMO issues they just.can’t.solve, and thanks to the huge amount of moving parts which are required for OMEMO support, it’s impossible to debug
15:29:47 jonasw ~~because they’re not technical people and getting usable logs is ~impossible.~~ ✎
15:29:55 jonasw also because they’re not technical people and getting usable logs is ~impossible. ✏
15:30:13 jonasw but mostly because even when you get logs, it ends up with "eeehh... yeah, no idea"
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15:30:43 Ge0rG Somebody should make a "Why am I losing messages in XMPP?" flowchart
15:30:50 jonasw sounds like a plan
15:31:42 moparisthebest I installed conversations on my Mom's phone years ago and she's never had issues, and you've never met a more technology incompetent person
15:32:06 Ge0rG moparisthebest: did she ever *create* a private MUC?
15:32:25 jonasw is s2s involved?
15:32:38 moparisthebest She doesn't even know what words like omemo or xmpp are, it's just how she messages family, and it *just works*
15:32:59 moparisthebest No on creating private muc
15:33:23 Ge0rG moparisthebest: see!
15:33:31 moparisthebest No s2s but that's not really a client concern anyway
15:33:43 jonasw moparisthebest, nobody said anything about "client" concerns only
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15:34:27 Link Mauve moparisthebest, when my father upgraded to some version of Conversations, he couldn’t even talk to me anymore because it was telling him I don’t have any OMEMO key, and he obviously didn’t read the error message and just assumed “it” stopped working.
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15:35:14 Link Mauve He’s not totally illiterate, but he still doesn’t read error messages.
15:36:19 moparisthebest That's also probably not the best error message if you don't know what omemo is
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15:36:39 moparisthebest Was that because the default changed to omemo and you don't use it?
15:36:53 moparisthebest Cause that dialog has been improved a lot
15:38:43 moparisthebest https://burtrum.org/up/dbce0222-f2f1-48b2-bcc7-b35f5b0c55a0/IJ5QOl5mQsyOdwogck45XA.jpg
15:38:45 Link Mauve moparisthebest, maybe, since then I went on holiday at his place and switched this tab to no encryption, he’s using the same server as mine anyway.
15:39:13 moparisthebest That's what it looks like now, sending to a user named 'test'
15:39:23 Link Mauve moparisthebest, see, faced with such a dialog the only thing he would do would be to click Cancel.
15:39:48 Link Mauve And then try again three or four times before giving up.
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15:40:07 Ge0rG My father is using all the evil chat systems.
15:40:09 moparisthebest That's fair, I'm not a UI guy but it could be improved
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16:05:48 pep. ~~edhelas, thas drewdevault guy is.. interesting. I know him from Sway (compositor)~~ ✎
16:06:38 pep. edhelas, that drewdevault guy is.. interesting. I know him from Sway (compositor) ✏
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16:26:03 pep. edhelas, I'd be interested to hear his opinions about XMPP, seeing that he recommends matrix and tox :)
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16:56:32 Ge0rG pep.: on HN he wrote that he didn't evaluate any other chat systems besides of matrix and signal
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23:54:20 Syndace If conversations does not even find a device list, then how the f* does it encrypt messages?
23:54:55 Syndace What the hell is "we can't encrypt, there is no way. Keep on encrypting?"
23:54:57 Syndace ???
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23:58:03 moparisthebest Syndace: it gives you the option to disable it, what else could it do?
23:58:32 moparisthebest Can't silently fall back to unencrypted, this ain't email