XSF Discussion - 2018-08-09

  1. Seve/SouL

    Thanks for sharing pep. I will take a look

  2. jonasw

    meh videos

  3. flow

    my thought exactly

  4. Seve/SouL

    I guess it's more 'sound' than video :)

  5. Seve/SouL

    But I understand

  6. jonasw

    I’d love to skim it to gauge applicability/interest :(

  7. pep.

    jonasw: so much negativity ;)

  8. pep.

    jonaws, I've got text notes here for you: https://bpaste.net/raw/6e36088b2615

  9. Guus

    Board o'clock

  10. Guus

    No MattJ today, nor Nyco. RalphM, Martin?

  11. nyco

    so finally, I can make it

  12. Guus


  13. Guus

    seems to be just you and me though

  14. nyco

    what's the timeout value? 10 minutes? 😉

  15. MattJ

    I'm kinda here, but can't promise I won't need to disappear

  16. MattJ

    And I'm multitasking

  17. nyco

    so, do we do that meeting?

  18. nyco

    if MattJ is half here, then we are 2.5, is that a quorum? 😉

  19. Guus

    Let's skip until next week, unless someone wants to address something urgently

  20. nyco

    next week, I'll a very constrained bandwidth, I think I'll have to skip it

  21. nyco

    I'll know better on Wednesday

  22. Martin

    Guus: I am not the xsf Martin 😉

  23. Guus

    Martin, I know, but I'm not aware of XSF's Martins other nickname 🙂

  24. Guus

    nyco, ok, please let us know

  25. Guus

    doesn't seem that there's much interest in continuing today

  26. nyco


  27. nyco


  28. Guus

    until we meet again!

  29. edhelas


  30. jonasw

    okay wat

  31. jonasw

    something is kaputt

  32. jonasw

    I can’t access that, and I can’t access stackoverflow.

  33. Ge0rG

    jonasw: your internet is b0rked!

  34. jonasw

    yes, but why

  35. jonasw

    it is not DNS

  36. edhelas

    jonasw did you tried HTTP over XMPP ?

  37. jonasw

    edhelas, no

  38. jonasw

    IPv4 seems to be kaputt

  39. edhelas

    IPv6 is the new IPv4

  40. jonasw

    and the v6 of drewdevault.com is kaputt

  41. jonasw

    that explains it

  42. jonasw

    gonna reboot the router thing

  43. jonasw


  44. jonasw

    also interesting how long I didn’t notice that v4 was b0rked

  45. edhelas

    it's maybe a good thing

  46. Ge0rG

    > Last time I've tried Matrix (this spring) with a group of peers, my E2E rooms were full of random "failed to decrypt" and lots of out-of-band communications "hey, are my messages working for you today?" I'm glad Matrix is having the same issues as XMPP with E2EE

  47. jonasw


  48. moparisthebest

    What issues does XMPP have with it? :)

  49. jonasw

    moparisthebest, talk to the folks who regularly get OMEMO errors.

  50. moparisthebest

    Seriously though, for normal users who only have a phone it works flawlessly

  51. Ge0rG

    I sent you an OMEMO encrypted message but your client doesn’t seem to support that. Find more information on https://conversations.im/omemo

  52. jonasw

    I sent you an OMEMO encrypted message but your client doesn’t seem to support that. Find more information on https://conversations.im/omemo

  53. moparisthebest

    jonasw: likely only advanced users who like to flip knobs in advanced settings and try a lot of clients

  54. moparisthebest

    Ie, most people here, but no normal people

  55. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: or people who try to configure a private MUC

  56. jonasw

    moparisthebest, we have fairly normal people around at xmpp@ who have (likely) OMEMO issues they just.can’t.solve, and thanks to the huge amount of moving parts which are required for OMEMO support, it’s impossible to debug

  57. jonasw

    because they’re not technical people and getting usable logs is ~impossible.

  58. jonasw

    also because they’re not technical people and getting usable logs is ~impossible.

  59. jonasw

    but mostly because even when you get logs, it ends up with "eeehh... yeah, no idea"

  60. Ge0rG

    Somebody should make a "Why am I losing messages in XMPP?" flowchart

  61. jonasw

    sounds like a plan

  62. moparisthebest

    I installed conversations on my Mom's phone years ago and she's never had issues, and you've never met a more technology incompetent person

  63. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: did she ever *create* a private MUC?

  64. jonasw

    is s2s involved?

  65. moparisthebest

    She doesn't even know what words like omemo or xmpp are, it's just how she messages family, and it *just works*

  66. moparisthebest

    No on creating private muc

  67. Ge0rG

    moparisthebest: see!

  68. moparisthebest

    No s2s but that's not really a client concern anyway

  69. jonasw

    moparisthebest, nobody said anything about "client" concerns only

  70. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, when my father upgraded to some version of Conversations, he couldn’t even talk to me anymore because it was telling him I don’t have any OMEMO key, and he obviously didn’t read the error message and just assumed “it” stopped working.

  71. Link Mauve

    He’s not totally illiterate, but he still doesn’t read error messages.

  72. moparisthebest

    That's also probably not the best error message if you don't know what omemo is

  73. moparisthebest

    Was that because the default changed to omemo and you don't use it?

  74. moparisthebest

    Cause that dialog has been improved a lot

  75. moparisthebest


  76. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, maybe, since then I went on holiday at his place and switched this tab to no encryption, he’s using the same server as mine anyway.

  77. moparisthebest

    That's what it looks like now, sending to a user named 'test'

  78. Link Mauve

    moparisthebest, see, faced with such a dialog the only thing he would do would be to click Cancel.

  79. Link Mauve

    And then try again three or four times before giving up.

  80. Ge0rG

    My father is using all the evil chat systems.

  81. moparisthebest

    That's fair, I'm not a UI guy but it could be improved

  82. pep.

    edhelas, thas drewdevault guy is.. interesting. I know him from Sway (compositor)

  83. pep.

    edhelas, that drewdevault guy is.. interesting. I know him from Sway (compositor)

  84. pep.

    edhelas, I'd be interested to hear his opinions about XMPP, seeing that he recommends matrix and tox :)

  85. Ge0rG

    pep.: on HN he wrote that he didn't evaluate any other chat systems besides of matrix and signal

  86. Syndace

    If conversations does not even find a device list, then how the f* does it encrypt messages?

  87. Syndace

    What the hell is "we can't encrypt, there is no way. Keep on encrypting?"

  88. Syndace


  89. moparisthebest

    Syndace: it gives you the option to disable it, what else could it do?

  90. moparisthebest

    Can't silently fall back to unencrypted, this ain't email