XSF Discussion - 2018-08-16

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  344. Link Mauve Ugh, https://infosec-handbook.eu/blog/xmpp-aitm/
  345. Link Mauve They’re mostly right, but I dislike their conclusions.
  346. Ge0rG Link Mauve: they also had a rant about how bad XMPP is, recently
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  348. Ge0rG https://infosec-handbook.eu/blog/federation-myths/
  349. Link Mauve Ge0rG, this is another.
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  351. dwd Link Mauve, "Furthermore, he is convinced that most XMPP server and client software is more a leisure project than secure software." - there's at least three companies working with XMPP in high security environments.
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  363. Zash Uh, worth reading?
  364. daniel To be fair the companies you are talking about aren't the companies and products most end users are using
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  372. daniel But still at least ejabberd and Conversations are products created by for profit entities
  373. daniel > Uh, worth reading? Not really
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  375. Zash > Links > * How to use Signal more privacy-friendly
  376. Zash Uuuuuhu
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  390. edhelas > solution, don't use Signal
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  393. jonasw > solution, stop doing those computer things and become potato farmer
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  396. Ge0rG jonasw: potato seeds are generticaly manipulated by Monsanto to not reproduce after the first generation, forcing you to buy new seeds from them
  397. Zash Plant potato, get more potato
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  419. dwd Still don't quite understand why "Don't trust an XMPP server operator, they can monitor your traffic really easily!" can be combined with "Use this centralized service, because the admins and hosting providers are totally trustworthy."
  420. Zash dwd: You dare question our lord and saviour, Moxie?! /s
  421. Zash Something something praise be crypto-jesus
  422. edhelas never question Father Moxie
  423. dwd Well, right. That's why pretty much every *other* cryptographer is working on MLS.
  424. edhelas and the Signal centralized backend deployed on AWS instances :p
  425. edhelas but it's "Snowden Approved ©"
  426. Zash and Schneier approved(?)
  427. dwd Yeah, because a guy who dumped a load of stuff he hadn't even read onto a bunch of journalists is a good source of judgement.
  428. Zash The holy trinity giveth unto us Signal
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  430. edhelas by the way, the centralized-xmpp-based-omemo Cryptocat client is not maintained anymore ? https://github.com/cryptocat/cryptocat
  431. jonasw dwd, (being devil’s advocate): "because we can deploy useful e2ee"
  432. dwd jonasw, Sure, but the remaining problems still exist - anyone reading the cleartext Signal traffic can read out the routing info.
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  452. daniel edhelas: does that surprise you given the three preceding iterations of that project?
  453. Zash dwd: wait, what?
  454. Ge0rG Zash: Facebook paid TWO MILLION DOLLARS to get moxie's Stamp Of Approval. It must be good!
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  456. Ge0rG Zash: if your "wait, what" relates to Signal: the Signal admins can access exactly the same kind of metadata as your XMPP server admin, except with phone numbers instead of JIDs. But they Totally Promised Not To Do It.
  457. edhelas so this is fine
  458. Zash I read what dwd wrote as an implied lack of transport encryption
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  460. Ge0rG Zash: I think "cleartext Signal traffic" was supposed to mean the post-decryption stream
  461. Zash Noise?
  462. Ge0rG wouldn't that be pre-decryption?
  463. Zash Were they the funny people who named their transport protocol "Noise"?
  464. Ge0rG Zash: drink some more coffee. Or drink less, if you've had some today.
  465. Zash Post-lunch nap perhaps
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  468. dwd Zash, No, I did mean inside the service. I assume it runs TLS etc.
  469. Zash dwd: I have this feeling that they invented their own TLS and named it Noise
  470. dwd With that bunch, that's entirely possible.
  471. Zash http://noiseprotocol.org/index.html hmmmmm, doesn't say Signal anywhere?
  472. Zash But WhatsApp
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  499. Ge0rG https://blog.powerdns.com/2018/03/22/the-dns-camel-or-the-rise-in-dns-complexit/ - this is so similar to XMPP
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  501. Zash DNS, complex? But, but, it's being HTTP&JSON-ified! That's the simplest thing evar!!!
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  503. Ge0rG Zash: take your nap already
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  506. ralphm waves
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  511. ralphm set the topic to XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  512. ralphm 0. Welcome
  513. ralphm Who do we have?
  514. Seve/SouL has joined
  515. ralphm I'm back from vacation.
  516. Guus o/
  517. Guus welcome back
  518. Guus (MattJ is always here if you mention him 😛 )
  519. Guus 😰
  520. Guus *tap* *tap* is this thing on?
  521. MattJ Hey
  522. Guus 😅
  523. MattJ Sorry, was temporarily distracted by the doorbell :)
  524. ralphm Quorum, yay
  525. ralphm Agenda items?
  526. Guus I don't have any
  527. MattJ I haven't looked at Trello in a while
  528. Guus at what point are we going to send someone over to Martin's house to check if he's OK?
  529. Guus (not you, Martin. The other Martin)
  530. MattJ He did reply to my email fairly promptly, so he's "around"
  531. Ge0rG so no need to send a SWAT team?
  532. ralphm Didn't we discuss this back in June?
  533. ralphm 21, specifically
  534. MattJ Probably
  535. ralphm Any updates on your side MattJ?
  536. MattJ No, the only thing on my side is GDPR, and I'm afraid I've not had time to work on it
  537. ralphm Now vacation is over and summer is coming to an end, we should be able to get back in motion.
  538. MattJ Yes, hopefully
  539. MattJ Just before the end of the term :)
  540. Guus which reminds me: should we start looking for the next Board?
  541. ralphm That was going to be my only thing for today. Ask Alex when he wants to start that process.
  542. ralphm We can already start poking people for interest.
  543. Guus sounds like a plan
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  545. Guus maybe we should also curate our to-do list, see what things we can reasonably expect to get done this term, and what not
  546. ralphm nods
  547. ralphm I'll have a look at it for next week.
  548. ralphm Anything else?
  549. Guus And, while on the subject:
  550. MattJ Nothing else from me
  551. Guus Should we consider putting in place a system where we do not replace the entire board each year?
  552. Guus have two-year terms, staggered - something like that?
  553. Guus I'm hoping that that'll prevent ramp-up and shut-down overhead, by making it more of an ongoing process.
  554. ralphm Not sure. I don't think it has been a problem before.
  555. ralphm All boards I was part of had overlap
  556. Andrew Nenakhov has joined
  557. dwd ralphm, Yes, but not by design, and there's always a feeling that Board can't do anything that goes beyond its term.
  558. ralphm That's a good point. This would require changes to our Bylaws, though. Not sure if we can do that before these elections.
  559. Guus oh, I'm not in a hurry
  560. dwd ralphm, I have occasionally wondered about staggered terms, or an "executive team" that actually does the work, that can be recalled by subsequent boards.
  561. Guus shall I post on the members list, see if there's support or not?
  562. MattJ We really don't have any kind of executive team
  563. ralphm dwd: well, yeah, but since we currently don't even have an Executive Director, we'd to figure out what that all means.
  564. jjrh has left
  565. ralphm Guus: please do.
  566. valo has joined
  567. Guus k
  568. ralphm Ok. My last thing was more of a note: FOSDEM has posted a CfP for 2019. Dates are February 2 and 3.
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  570. Guus ah, someone should kick SCAM in action
  571. ralphm So was penciling in Jan 31 and Feb 1 for our own stuff.
  572. Guus Sounds good. I've marked it on my personal calendar
  573. ralphm Ok.
  574. ralphm Cya next week!
  575. ralphm bangs gavel
  576. ralphm set the topic to XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
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  603. Dave Cridland So, I've been debugging XEP-0198 support. And I tried - because it seemed easiest - including XEP-0198 data on the stanza itself, as namespaced attributes. Gajim seemed to ignore it - anyone any idea if any clients would choke?
  604. Dave Cridland (I was doing this as debugging info I was *hoping* would be ignored, mind...)
  605. Link Mauve I still can’t understand how clients could choke on this proper usage of XML, while we are already doing it e.g. for @xml:lang.
  606. Ge0rG Dave Cridland: that smells of protocol abuse. But if you give me credentials / IBR, I can test yaxim
  607. Dave Cridland Link Mauve, We've avoided namespaced attributes in general because people do screw it up, or at least have historically.
  608. Link Mauve I’d really like to see data on that.
  609. Link Mauve Please deploy that in the wild. :)
  610. Ge0rG I also need to debug an SM anomaly that I've encountered, where messages get duplicated on resume. Sometimes.
  611. Dave Cridland Link Mauve, They're a bit of a weird one, in terms of XML, since <x xmlns='foo' attr='blah'/> is entirely different from <a:x xmlns:a='foo' a:attr='blah'/>.
  612. flow Ge0rG, duplicates send *after* resume?
  613. Dave Cridland Ge0rG, This ought to help track that one down. I'll throw you my IBR-enabled test server's details.
  614. flow Dave Cridland, care to share why those elements are different?
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  616. Link Mauve Dave Cridland, first one would be equivalent to <a:x xmlns:a='foo' attr='blah'/>, because non-prefixed attributes are in the null namespace.
  617. Link Mauve flow, ↑
  618. Link Mauve But you can perfectly have them in other namespaces.
  619. Dave Cridland flow, As Link Mauve says. But thanks for being an exemplar case of not understanding the things.
  620. Link Mauve <x xmlns='foo' xmlns:b='bar' b:attr='baz'/> works, but it’s a totally different element.
  621. Link Mauve And thus you can also have <x xmlns='foo' xmlns:b='bar' attr='blah' b:attr='baz'/>, with no conflict.
  622. Dave Cridland Link Mauve, I'm not sure that a non-prefixed attribute is in any namespace at all, as such.
  623. Link Mauve Which is equal to <a:x xmlns:a='foo' xmlns:b='bar' attr='blah' b:attr='baz'/>.
  624. Dave Cridland Link Mauve, So you can't, for example, say <x xmlns='foo' xmlns:null='' null:attr=blah'/>
  625. Link Mauve Indeed.
  626. Link Mauve Instead of “the null namespace” I should have said “no namespace”, but null is how this is represented at least in JS and Java.
  627. Dave Cridland Link Mauve, Right, but "attr" is "The attr attribute of x", whereas your "b:attr" is the "attr attribute of the bar namespace".
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  629. Link Mauve Hmm…
  630. Dave Cridland But in any case, corner-cases like <a xmlns:a='a' xmlns:b='a' a:a='bar' b:a='foo'/> can easily slip through.
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  632. Dave Cridland Since that XML happens to be legal if you're not processing namespaces, but illegal if you are.
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  634. Link Mauve Why? :/
  635. Link Mauve Ah, missed that both are the same namespace.
  636. Dave Cridland Link Mauve, Right.
  637. Link Mauve But are there really XML libraries which fail on that?
  638. Link Mauve I’d expect they to be fixed by then.
  639. Dave Cridland Link Mauve, I'd fully expect that XML to traverse most servers.
  640. flow possibly depending on the layer where the XML is embedded. Not all intermediate hops parse each and every part of the stanza
  641. Dave Cridland flow, Right. Or at least, not to the namespace level.
  642. Link Mauve % nc 5222 <?xml version='1.0'?><stream:stream xmlns:stream='http://etherx.jabber.org/streams' xml:lang='en' xmlns='jabber:client' to='linkmauve.fr'> <?xml version='1.0'?><stream:stream xmlns:stream='http://etherx.jabber.org/streams' xml:lang='en' from='linkmauve.fr' id='a8ccb26b-51b5-4a48-b1cb-ea4734f61a7f' xmlns='jabber:client'><stream:features><starttls xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-tls'><required/></starttls></stream:features> <a xmlns:a='foo' xmlns:b='foo' a:coucou='abc' b:coucou='def'/> <stream:error><not-well-formed xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-streams'/></stream:error></stream:stream>
  643. Link Mauve At least Prosody correctly rejects it.
  644. Ge0rG flow: yes, because smack3+0198 was miscounting.
  645. flow Link Mauve, even if it is embedded deep down in an extension element within a stanza?
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  647. Dave Cridland Link Mauve, I'd expect Prosody to, because it's using Expat underneath, right?
  648. MattJ Correct
  649. Dave Cridland Link Mauve, But ejabberd uses RapidXML, as does Metre. I'm not sure about Openfire actually - but it wouldn't surprise me if it passed them through unscathed.
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  721. Holger ejabberd uses Expat.
  722. MattJ I thought so. I thought dwd was implying they switched
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  726. dwd Holger, Oh, I thought the new stuff was using an Erland-wrapped RapidXML?
  727. dwd Erlang, even.
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  729. Holger dwd: Nope still Erlang-wrapped Expat, I'm not aware of attempts to switch.
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  732. Holger There was a major rewrite of the wrapping itself, which is now mostly in C.
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  738. dwd Ah! MongooseIM, not ejabberd. exml is now RapidXML.
  739. dwd But confusingly, I don't think they use my fork.
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