XSF Discussion - 2018-08-20

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  366. Zash Does anyone remeber what the point of https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0292.html#self-iq was?
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  400. Maranda eyes anjan broadcasting one presence any second 🙄
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  402. Ge0rG What's wrong with that? MUCs are made to scale!
  403. Maranda Ge0rG: but my eyes don't scale 😞
  404. Ge0rG Maranda: are you reading the XML log?
  405. Ge0rG ...and only see the blondes, the brunettes, ...
  406. Maranda Ge0rG: trying to catch something from the log tail actually 🙄☺️
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  409. Maranda thinks: luckily now CSI deduplicates 😆
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  412. Ge0rG depending on the CSI implementation and violation of RFCs.
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  418. Maranda thinks he doesn't break in order processing.
  419. Maranda Although staying in CSI theme...
  420. Maranda "For example: A client sends a CSI active nonza, followed by an XMPP Ping request to the server. The server first changes the CSI state to active and flushes all eventually queued *stanzsa*."
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  423. Ge0rG Maranda: but you are dropping stanzas
  424. Maranda Ge0rG, so whenever I filter a stanza silently I'm breaking in order processing...?
  425. Maranda Perhaps everyone violates rfcs
  426. flow Ge0rG, Does the RFC forbid that?
  427. Guus The RFC states that stanza order MUST be preserved.
  428. flow Yep, but I meant "dropping stanzas"
  429. Maranda Ge0rG, so since *everyone* does that I guess there isn't a real problem isn't it? :P
  430. Guus dropping != reordering, I believe.
  431. Maranda or you can't filter and drop stanzas anymore
  432. Maranda Guus, I'm not reordering
  433. Guus I'm not saying you are. 🙂
  434. Maranda :)
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  436. Guus I do wonder how effective CSI can be though, given that there's bound to be a stanza that you don't want to queue, and you need to maintain stanza order.
  437. Guus doesn't give much room to play, I think
  438. Guus at least not for "drop all but the last" type of filtering.
  439. Maranda Guus, I'm just queuing presences so it's... rather easy to do
  440. Guus Maranda, sure, but as soon as you get an IQ ping, you'd have to flush all that, right? Before responding to the IQ ping, I mean.
  441. Guus (or any other non-queued stanza)
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  444. flow Guus depends on who send the ping. but yes, usually you would flush if you have to send something anyway
  445. Maranda Guus, hmm that I didn't think about.
  446. Guus flow, an inbound ping to the client, I mean. I don't think it matters much who sent the ping? The server needs to preserve the order of all stanzas, not depending on who is the originator?
  447. Ge0rG So you want to tell me it is okay with the RFC to drop stanzas, but not ok to reorder them?
  448. flow Guus, I believe that XMPP could fall into the category where the order only matters with regard to two endpoints, not necesarily globally
  449. Guus flow: I'm not sure if that works. How would that work with private messages in MUCs, for example
  450. flow So if the ping originated from an entity which has no queued stanzas, you could only deliver the ping without flushing (but there is no reason you shouldn't flush)
  451. Guus Ge0rG: I'm not sure, to be honest. My point is even if it were allowed, I wonder if there's much practical benefit to CSI.
  452. Guus got to pick up kid from school. bbl
  453. MattJ Guus: flow: in practical terms the order between two bare JIDs must be preserved
  454. Guus Ge0rG: but isn't that how privacy lists work too, btw?
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  456. flow MattJ, why bare JID and not just "JID"?
  457. MattJ flow: imagine reordering presence from a MUC join, which specifies you always receive your own presence last
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  459. Maranda is rather confused now.
  460. MattJ In my opinion servers need to be very careful if they start arbitrarily dropping or reordering stanzas
  461. Ge0rG What MattJ said.
  462. Maranda well if it's bare jids IQs are excluded from the equation I suppose.
  463. Maranda clients won't have to answer to those.
  464. Kev Reordering is worse than not delivery
  465. MattJ Maranda: I didn't mean it like that
  466. Kev Reordering is worse than not delivering
  467. MattJ But I'm on my phone so I don't think I can attempt a better explain
  468. Kev (Note that 'not delivering' isn't the same as 'dropping' - if you don't deliver, you still have to follow the rules for when to silently drop and when to error)
  469. Ge0rG My point is: if the RFC mandates in-order delivery, it is kind of implicit that it mandates delivery.
  470. Ge0rG So just dropping stanzas will violate the RFC
  471. Maranda ... and so everyone in a way or another violates it.
  472. Kev Ge0rG: Delivery or error, yes.
  473. MattJ It's my understanding that it mandates delivery
  474. MattJ Or error
  475. Ge0rG Some cases allow silent dropping.
  476. Zash But XEPs can override core rules?
  477. Ge0rG Zash: yes
  478. MattJ Depending on stanza type, as you well know
  479. Kev Zash: Yes, by negotiation.
  480. flow MattJ, yep, the xep45 self-presence order is a good point
  481. Maranda Perhaps you're suggesting to do some magic amendment to the CSI spec?
  482. Maranda :P
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  485. Maranda isn't sure about how much he doesn't violate anymore, although he doesn't reorder what's in the queue.
  486. MattJ Maranda: the CSI spec does not tell you to reorder or drop
  487. flow Maranda, some ppl will tell you that you violate the RFC, some will tell you possible the opposite. What matters is: Is it beneficial? Does it break things?
  488. MattJ Unfortunately it has some "examples" which I am not happy about, but consensus was to add them
  489. MattJ They are not part of CSI
  490. MattJ And they are not specified in any detail, which may be worse
  491. flow Then get rid of them from the XEP. But we should consider adding a wiki page for CSI where strategies are collected
  492. flow Working and non-working strategies that is
  493. Zash Pros and cons
  494. MattJ flow: iirc you were one of the main voices requesting their addition :)
  495. Zash And whys
  496. Maranda flow, it's very beneficial and doesn't break anything tbh.
  497. MattJ Maranda: how do you know it is beneficial?
  498. Maranda MattJ, deduplicating presences?
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  500. MattJ This is another problem I have with current CSI usage
  501. Maranda MattJ, well it reduces queues *a lot* expecially if you join a lot of big mucs.
  502. MattJ Maranda: OK, spammy broken clients
  503. MattJ But the MUC could filter that
  504. MattJ More simply
  505. Maranda MattJ, irregardless of broken clients
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  507. MattJ bbl, train arriving at station
  508. flow MattJ, wait, we are talking about the in order requirement § 5.1? I thought we talk about CSI strategies that are applied
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  511. Maranda flow, I guess that if you queued all stanzas there wouldn't be problem with in order processing, the issues come out only if you don't filter all routable payload but only one or two of 'em.
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  513. Maranda flow, I guess that if you queued all stanzas there wouldn't be problem with in order processing, the issues come out only if you don't filter all routable payloads but only one or two of 'em.
  514. Maranda (like I currently do)
  515. flow Maranda, figures would be interesting. like the bytes that are not send by your implementation
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  517. Holger Guus: > I do wonder how effective CSI can be though, given that there's bound to be a stanza that you don't want to queue, and you need to maintain stanza order. For me in practice there's often long periods where many presence stanzas are received, and nothing else.
  518. Maranda flow, well for my mobile account the average queue for staying inactive was like 600 presences without dedup, it went down to as little as 50-60.
  519. Maranda flow, well for my mobile account the average queue for staying inactive few hours was like 600 presences without dedup, it went down to as little as 50-60.
  520. flow Maranda, so that is CSI with and without queue (presence) dedup?
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  522. Maranda So I guess that matters somehow, about the actual bw you save I'm not sure but you can make an esteem.
  523. Maranda yes
  524. flow k, I was more wondering about CSI vs non-CSI
  525. Maranda so there's for sure a benefit expecially on MUC usage.
  526. flow and especially the longest time period the connection was idle
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  528. flow time for mod_csi_stats
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  530. Maranda well I suppose you can extract those numbers for my figure if the server queued around 600 presences mostly for mucs during inactive hours
  531. Holger flow: Dedup can of course make a great difference if you limit the queue size and flush when it's reached.
  532. Maranda well I suppose you can extract those numbers from my figure if the server queued around 600 presences mostly for mucs during inactive hours
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  537. Maranda for sure the reduction is reasonably around x10 magnitude
  538. Maranda sending only the last useful presence state
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  540. flow Holger, good point
  541. dos heck, it doesn't need MUCs - I have an account with 700 transport contacts from a network with lousily defined presence semantics and CSI helps there as well in taming the unnecessary traffic
  542. flow dos, which network is this?
  543. dos facebook :P
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  552. Ge0rG even grouping the presence XML stanzas over time and sending them in one big flush is good for the battery.
  553. Maranda Ge0rG, yes which is where deduplication helps...
  554. Holger > <MattJ> flow: imagine reordering presence from a MUC join, which specifies you always receive your own presence last I guess the problem with breaking this is that the client might mis-interpret presence received after the final self-presence as *newly* joined members?
  555. MattJ Yes
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  557. MattJ dos: any actual stats?
  558. Zash Join a few noicy IRC channels
  559. Ge0rG Holger: imagine how that interacts with GC1.0 joins and intermittent s2s outages.
  560. Zash There's no GC1.0 la-la-la can't hear you
  561. Ge0rG I've done a CSI benchmark on a freenode transport some two years ago.
  562. Ge0rG I prepared a motion to Council to get rid of GC1.0, but it was not approved.
  563. Ge0rG And when I started making a PR to 0045, I realized that significant deletion is required
  564. Zash Next Prosody won't allow GC1.0 joins, have we seen any ill effects of it yet?
  565. Holger So you basically cannot de-dup MUC presence without breaking that 0045 guarantee unless you add special code for handling MUC joins.
  566. Zash Holger: Mmmmm, special cases
  567. Holger They're so elegant!
  568. dos MattJ: I haven't made any stats so far, but when I hacked up my Nokia N900 to actually use CSI, it was the first time I could actually observe prolonged silence on the stream
  569. Zash Specal casing on top of hacks on top of more hacks until your brain explodes
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  572. dos I've got around 60 presences in the last few minutes
  573. Maranda fwiw I didn't yet see a single muc break.
  574. Holger Maranda: Do you have a CSI client that shows MUC joins/leaves?
  575. Holger Without one I'm not sure how you'd "see" that breakage.
  576. jonasw and even then it might actually be hard to notice
  577. Maranda Holger, join a small channel compare occupant list with another client?
  578. dos you're likely to join MUCs when CSI indicates "active", for instance
  579. Holger Maranda: The resulting occupant list will be correct in both cases.
  580. Ge0rG dos: another good one is client caps caching
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  582. Maranda I'm sure that works, and I just did that because I was worried something like that happened because of deduplication.
  583. Maranda Holger, I didn't mean breaking the spec :P
  584. Holger Maranda: AFAICS the only problem would be bogus "Maranda joined" messages.
  585. Maranda I meant *it actually* broke anything.
  586. Ge0rG dos: my client will join MUCs when inactive, because a MUC ping timeout happened when idle
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  588. dos Ge0rG: yup. thankfully, that was already done by the whichevet old Telepathy version is there :)
  589. Holger Maranda: Yes I think it doesn't *actually* break anything because Conversations & friends don't show "Maranda joined" messages anyway.
  590. Maranda Holger, I'd suppose clients look more at status 110 now than the order.
  591. Maranda for self presence
  592. dos Ge0rG: and how likely are you to notice some erroreneous joins displayed by your client in such case? ;D
  593. Holger Maranda: That statement makes no sense to me.
  594. Ge0rG dos: there are issues.
  595. Holger Maranda: The point is, when they receive their status-110-message they assume they have the full list of occupants. Any presence received afterwards would be interpreted as "Maranda joined", while in reality Maranda didn't join but was an occupant before I joined.
  596. Kev Am I being completely daft, or does https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6121#section-8.5 completely fail to say how to route presence type=error?
  597. Maranda Holger, hm ok now that's clearer :P
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  599. Maranda I was more looking at actual occupant list desyncs rather than that anyways
  600. Holger Yes those shouldn't be broken by this kind of dedup.
  601. jonasw only temporarily
  602. Holger Well yes only until the client processed the flushed stanzas.
  603. jonasw or if your dedup has a bug
  604. Holger :-)
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  607. Holger I haven't heard of bugs in XMPP code.
  608. jonasw that’s because they eat the messages telling you about them
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  610. Maranda Holger, but question is how many mobile (one presumes most using CSI are those) actually show MUC joins?
  611. Maranda Holger, but question is how many mobile clients (one presumes most using CSI are those) actually show MUC joins?
  612. dos Maemo 5 does, and I modified it to use CSI, so I guess I could test it with ejabberd :v
  613. Maranda dos: doo eet 😁
  614. Holger Maranda: Yes, as I said :-)
  615. Holger Maranda: The answer may well be zero.
  616. Holger Maranda: I'm doing that kind of dedup as well as the possible benefit seems significant to me, and I haven't seen any (reports on) breagage. But this *is* hairy of course.
  617. Holger "breagage", I'm drunk.
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  619. Maranda Holger, ditto I mean as far as I like strict compliance, the current CSI code works and is (surprisingly) clean and simple for once, so as long as something doesn't break (e.g. like occupant list desync) I'm not inclined to touch it 😁
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  675. jonasw MattJ, could you kick anjan temporarily? apparently, they’re flooding this room with useless <presence/> stanzas
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  677. MattJ :)
  678. MattJ An unsurprising outcome, in hindsight
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  680. Ge0rG GC1.0 FTW!
  681. Ge0rG Unfortunately, there is no way to burn GC1.0 without "breaking" usability.
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  683. Maranda damn I actually needed anjan to test something
  684. Ge0rG Maranda: get yourself kickbanned as well, then you are together with anjan again 🤔
  685. Maranda Ge0rG, :P
  686. Maranda Ge0rG, no need it actually works.
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  703. Maranda And that problem wasnt gc1.0 related me thinks just an old issue in gajim that made it loop resending muc presences
  704. Ge0rG Maranda: but with GC1.0, the ghost returned after getting kicked
  705. Maranda 🤔
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  713. Andrew Nenakhov Btw, are there any docs on GC1.0? We didn't find it anywhere, only references in XEP-0045
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  718. dos hmm... when client receives a message directed to other client via carbon that has a delivery receipt request, should it send one?
  719. daniel That can make sense
  720. dos nvm, xep mentions it, so I guess it should: "Because it is possible for a given content message to be delivered to multiple XMPP resources controlled by the recipient, the sender of the content message needs to be prepared to receive multiple ack messages."
  721. daniel The xep is probably not talking about carbons though
  722. daniel But still I belive sending them - while not ideal - is the best thing we can do for now
  723. dos I think this is the only mention of a situation with multiple acks, so I'd interpret it as "it is possible, for instance with bare JID messages, message carbons are enabled etc."
  724. dos so nothing really mandates you to send them, but conforming receipt requestor should be prepared to handle them, so it should be fine
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  735. Andrew Nenakhov I'd rather send it. Even if sender didn't intend my device to receive this message, I still received it, because my carbons are configured this way. So, it's delivered to me, and I should probably send a receipt.
  736. Andrew Nenakhov I also don't like when remote party dictates how my devices work. "I'll talk with you over this Android phone, not over that desktop client"
  737. jonasw #OMEMO
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  742. Ge0rG you could send a carbon of a receipt 😁
  743. dos Psi does it even better right now - it sends a receipt for an outgoing carbon that requests one :D
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  746. Ge0rG Heh.
  747. Ge0rG dos: as long as it doesn't request a receipt for a receipt, everything is good.
  748. Zash Something something two generals problem
  749. lovetox in my opinion of course a receipt should be send
  750. lovetox in my opinion of course a receipt should be sent
  751. lovetox a carbon means only the server received the message, not the client
  752. Ge0rG lovetox: what?
  753. lovetox what part of what i said is not clear?
  754. Ge0rG > a carbon means only the server received the message, not the client
  755. Ge0rG maybe I'm just lacking the proper context for this
  756. lovetox you receive a "received" carbon, now you can wait 5 seconds or any amount of time you want, if there is no receipt coming in from your other client, you should assume he didnt receive the message
  757. lovetox and ack
  758. Ge0rG I'd just ack anyway
  759. Zash ack for carbons, ack for mam, ack all teh time
  760. Ge0rG we need multi-ack!
  761. jonasw if we only had a mechanism for acknowledging stuff
  762. jonasw like, IQs
  763. Zash or send acks when the server writes into mam
  764. jonasw Zash, I’d like that
  765. Zash wait have we invented email then?
  766. lovetox i think thats exactly not what receipts are about
  767. lovetox receipt mean the client received the message
  768. lovetox not a server archive, which cant even determine if the message is encrypted and the client can decrypt it
  769. lovetox really there are error messages for when s2s or c2s does not work
  770. jonasw except when there aren’t
  771. Zash what if we just stop worrying about everything
  772. Zash messages get through or they don't
  773. lovetox yes i say this often, Gajim has receipts disabled by default
  774. lovetox i use xmpp now for some years, never had a problem with not received messages, except when encryption was involved
  775. Ge0rG .I agree with lovetox in that.
  776. jonasw sure, let’s not worry about reliability
  777. jonasw lovetox, I had
  778. Ge0rG lovetox: sorry, but your story is a huge anomaly. I lose messages all the time
  779. jonasw a lot
  780. Ge0rG sometimes I only lose carbons because my contact just turns off their phone's wifi
  781. Zash did you say something?
  782. jonasw but many of those would probably be solved by MAM
  783. daniel Ge0rG: maybe you smacks implementation is broken?
  784. daniel Or the fact that you don't have mam?
  785. Ge0rG daniel: maybe XMPP is broken?
  786. daniel Apparently not for me and lovetox
  787. daniel Who do implement both mam and 198
  788. Ge0rG daniel: not sure about ejabberd, but another widely-deployed XMPP server will error-bounce all stanzas when a hibernated 0198 session gets destroyed.
  789. Ge0rG besides, I probably just don't know zilch about how xmpp works :P
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  798. daniel But a bounced message is not a lost one
  799. daniel Unless you don't track your errors
  800. Zash Schrödingers bouncy deliveries
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  803. dos afaik ejabberd has a config entry for that and can either put them to offline storage or bounce
  804. daniel Yeah so does prosody. But complaining about things is always more fun
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  806. Zash The day humans stop complaining is the day we gone extinct.
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  812. Ge0rG daniel: the prosody module doesn't work if you have multiple clients
  813. Ge0rG But yeah, complaining is more fun.
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  817. Ge0rG Also I'm not sure what tracking errors gives you, unless you do automatic retransmission, which is a huge PITA
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  825. Maranda We need some ELE first or later anyways
  826. jonasw ELE?
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  862. Maranda jonasw: Extinction Level Event
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  871. Ge0rG Maranda: https://syonyk.blogspot.com/2015/08/i-am-backsideist.html
  872. Maranda sounds like some complex read which I'm a bit too tired to start :O
  873. Maranda > not sure about ejabberd, but another widely-deployed XMPP server will error-bounce all stanzas when a hibernated 0198 session gets destroyed. well I have the "Ge0rG's maneuver" when there's at least one session online supporting carbons :P
  874. marc has left
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  876. Maranda (aka "assume like it's delivered")
  877. Maranda (... and don't bounce it)
  878. Ge0rG Maranda: is that upstreamed?
  879. Maranda Ge0rG, it's in Metronome from quite a bit yes.
  880. Ge0rG Maranda: that's not what I mean.
  881. ThibG has joined
  882. Maranda Then I'm too tired to understand what you mean, elaborate plx :P
  883. Ge0rG Maranda: prosody
  884. Maranda And I don't think so, dunno.
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  891. Maranda > is quite unpleasantly high, the state of infrastructure is quite sad (when was the last bridge collapse?), 6 days ago.
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  976. Ge0rG Not speaking of irc bridges
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