XSF Discussion - 2018-08-21

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  56. dos

    could MAM be enabled for this room?

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  159. edhelas


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  161. Maranda

    Ge0rG: no, and I'm not either

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  225. Kev

    Revisiting my question from yesterday - can anyone find any evidence that routing behaviour for presence type='error' is defined anywhere in 6120/6121?

  226. Kev

    3921 said it must be routed to the user, but not using what rules, and 6121 seems to be completely silent, unless I'm just missing it.

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  229. MattJ

    Kev, it does appear to be missing indeed

  230. jonasw

    no erratum either

  231. Kev

    So, full-JID is routed, bare JID is dropped, logically, right?

  232. Zash

    Hm, where would error-replies to probes go?

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  235. jonasw


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  238. Kev

    Bare, which wouldn't be delivered to the user. Which is right, I think.

  239. Kev

    OTOH the error in response to the broadcast presence /would/ be delivered to the user, because that's to=full.

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  241. jonasw

    (which is also right)

  242. Kev


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  257. Link Mauve

    “15:43:43 Zash> Next Prosody won't allow GC1.0 joins, have we seen any ill effects of it yet?”, a tiny usability issue on my side, I used to just change my status in poezio after a network or power outage of my server, and it would automatically reconnect me back to all rooms, but without GC1.0 it instead gets an error back (which it could totally handle and issue a join, so that’s only a client needing to be fixed).

  258. Zash

    Link Mauve: https://xkcd.com/1172/ ?

  259. Kev

    I'm assuming that's a fairly common workflow though, I do the same.

  260. Link Mauve

    Pretty much.

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  263. Maranda

    stupid question probably, but MAM RSM wise is it proper to return item-not-found if paging before/after a certain index (which actually exists) yields no results?

  264. Maranda

    The spec explicitly talks about the entry not existing otherwise not the page before/after it being empty.

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  266. Holger

    Yes, my understanding is that you'd return an empty page in that case.

  267. Maranda

    Holger, considering some clients seem to trample on empty pages without an error though...

  268. Holger


  269. Maranda

    (e.g. Movim)

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  271. Holger

    I would've expected clients will usually honour the 'complete' attribute and not even issue such a request in the first place.

  272. Maranda

    Holger, movim doesn't apparently

  273. Holger

    I.e. I would've thought this is a corner case where messages were deleted from the DB while the client is querying it.

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  275. Maranda

    it will just send an query with rsm <after /> with the last entry.

  276. Holger

    And how does it then "trample"?

  277. Maranda

    which results in an empty page and just starts endlessly looping on that

  278. Maranda


  279. Holger


  280. Holger

    edhelas: ^

  281. Maranda

    Holger, he knows

  282. Maranda


  283. Holger


  284. Maranda

    I already reported the issue of it not respecting the complete attribute.

  285. Holger

    Sounds like two issues to me.

  286. Maranda

    Holger, but I wonder if I should do anything to prevent this with any other clunky/old implementation

  287. Maranda

    sending the error instead of the empty page works for Movim at least

  288. Maranda

    Holger, well as long as I didn't miss anything behaving this way doesn't seem to break any MUST/SHOULD that I can see.

  289. Holger

    Maranda: Hehe, yes strictly speaking I'd agree, but I think you can deduce from the text that it goes against the intention.

  290. Holger

    I'm not sure there's use-cases where the clients would be interested in the difference between a real item-not-found and an empty page.

  291. Holger

    Probably not.

  292. Maranda

    Holger, question does ejabberd include in results the entry specified in either after/before elements?

  293. Holger

    I hope not!

  294. Holger

    I'll double-check if you have any indication that it does :-)

  295. Holger

    That would clearly go against the spec.

  296. Maranda

    Holger, I'm trying to understand why apparently Movim doesn't trample with ejabberd as well.

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  298. Holger

    Me too, especially as I think ejabberd is violating that item-not-found MUST in that it *never* returns that error.

  299. Holger

    > does ejabberd include in results the entry specified in either after/before elements? Ok I checked, answer is "no".

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  301. Holger

    But not I'm wondering whether I should add that item-not-found thing. Opposite problem of yours :-P

  302. Holger

    Would add code ugliness.

  303. Maranda

    Holger, the only thing that looked slightly off in that empty page was the <set /> element but otherwise was correct so I'm a bit in a 🤷‍♂️ mode atm 🤣

  304. Maranda


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  306. Holger

    Maranda: In the empty page returned by Metronome?

  307. Maranda


  308. Maranda

    and it also sported complete="true"

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  310. Maranda

    but anyways since just throwing an error makes Movim happy... for now :P

  311. Holger

    We already query an additional message from the DB (and then throw it away) in order to set complete=true/false. So we'd need another one to decide on whether to return that error.

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  368. Zash

    Grr, why did the mailman URLs change?

  369. jonasw

    did you delete a message?

  370. Zash

    On Fri, 2011-08-19 at 22:04 +0200, Andreas Monitzer wrote: > Why doesn't it use plain PEP, instead defining its own protocol? It did, see this thread: http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2011-April/024355.html

  371. Zash

    Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 20:49:34 +0200 Subject: Re: [Standards] XEP-0292 vCard4 Reinventing the Wheel?

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  373. Zash

    That link goes to something about xep178, not vcard4

  374. Zash

    This looks more relevant: https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2011-April/024333.html

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  398. Zash

    Hm, whatever happened to pubsub-since

  399. Zash


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  434. Zash

    Is there still consensus for having https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0292.html#self-iq ?

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  436. Zash

    I personally don't see the point at this time, doing a PubSub get-item(s) query seems just as likely to work/not work as that, and doesn't require more code over what's already there for PEP/222/223

  437. Zash

    The argument that it's needed to work in MUC doesn't hold because it does not work in MUC without a special exception to re-route such IQ stanzas to the bare JID, like we happen to have for vcard-temp.

  438. Zash

    Extending that exception to arbitrary PubSub is just as easy as extending it to that single vcard4 iq query.

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  442. Maranda


  443. Maranda is tempted to experiment with multiplexing on outgoing streams

  444. Maranda

    I wonder if only Prosody wouldn't go "WTF?!" at me.

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  446. Maranda

    I mean if people keept code for GTalk in place 🤣

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  449. jonasw

    Zash, I agree with your view

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  457. dos

    me: "Slack has Markdown, Riot has Markdown... I want Markdown my XMPP client, should be as simple as putting some mark to the message "markdown on". there has be a XEP for that already!" XMPP: uhm... XEP-0393? XEP-0394? or... https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/content-types.html? me: damn you xmpp

  458. dos

    every single one of those is slightly not what I would like :/

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  460. SamWhited

    What's missing? 0393 is what Slack and WhatsApp do I thought

  461. moparisthebest

    First define markdown, which is hard enough

  462. SamWhited

    (and deliberately not 'markdown', which most messengers don't actually support)

  463. Kev

    On the one hand, yes it is, but on the other hand people mostly make do.

  464. Kev

    (hard to define markdown, that is)

  465. goffi

    dos: markdown is not a wire format, there has been a long flam^W debate about this on standard@, and the subject is not closed.

  466. SamWhited

    He's not looking for a wire format, he's looking to enter something in a text box and have it appear formatted. How that's transmitted on the wire doesn't matter, I suspect.

  467. dos

    oh wait, I might have raged too quickly. 0393 might be fine, have to reread

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  469. goffi

    SamWhited: he's talking about a "markdown on" message mark, so I take it as a wire format. Else it doesn't matter which flavour of markdown you are using as long as you can convert it to wire format (like the RIP XHTML-IM)

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  471. SamWhited

    dos: let me know, feedback would be appreciated.

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  473. dos

    the examples in that xep are confusing. had to reread Example 1 a few times to actually get it

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  475. SamWhited

    That's good feedback, thanks :) Driving now, ping anything you find to to sam@samwhited.com or standards at and I'll try to fix it.

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  479. flow

    dos, https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/bmh.html

  480. dos

    flow: ah, much butter than the content type one. however, 0393 seems to be fine after all. it doesn't have any way to singalize its support though, so maybe 0393+bmh would be a good idea? :D

  481. dos

    (well, probably not)

  482. pep.

    goffi: I don't think he's talking about wire format, but your comment still applies. In any case that only needs to be a client thing and not bloat^Wdirectly in body

  483. Maranda

    actually it might not be so complicated to implement either 🤔

  484. pep.

    In fractal (matrix client) there's this thing where you can check "markdown" iirc, and then input stuff in markdown, that'll be translated into some kind of rich text, (and advertized as such). I assume they do that so you can _also_ use plain text, and not have it displayed funky, which makes sense

  485. pep.

    (à la xhtml-im, then)

  486. pep.

    But let's not revive the flamewar

  487. dos

    riot has such switch as well. otoh, slack doesn't have iirc

  488. dos

    anyway, for me looks like 0393 is fine after all, no need to flame ;D

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  491. flow

    dos, isn't the thing about markdown that you don't need to signal support for it?

  492. flow

    but yeah, xep393 probably lacks an extension element indicating that its <body/> is xep393 formated

  493. dos

    flow: yeah, I thought about it after sending. makes sense

  494. jonasw

    it doesn’t really make sense

  495. jonasw

    not everyone is going to emit markdown plaintext

  496. jonasw

    or markdown-compatible plaintext

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  498. dos

    there's no reason to not format *stuff like that* just because the sender didn't

  499. flow

    jonasw, are you talking about signaling support for receiving markdown, or signaling that the data is markdown formated?

  500. jonasw

    dos, think about automated things

  501. jonasw

    flow, the latter

  502. flow

    jonasw, well, but does asked for the former

  503. jonasw

    oh, I missed that then?

  504. flow

    and yes, I aggree with you, that is why I wrote that xep393 is probably missing "an extension element indicating that its <body/> is xep393 formated"

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  607. Link Mauve

    Hello, I wrote a XEP about MUC avatars based on 0153, Ejabberd’s MUC avatar tutorial and disco#info, but now I’m having second-thoughts about it and might instead favour PubSub on MUC JID, so we can finally deprecate 0153.

  608. Link Mauve

    The main benefit of the latter is that 0084 describes much better what the image data actually are.

  609. Link Mauve

    But the former is already implemented in more places.

  610. Link Mauve

    The upgrade path would be trivial though.

  611. Maranda

    Thumb down, then already will not implement it

  612. Link Mauve

    It’s being implemented as we talk.

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  614. Maranda

    I'm eager to see what kind of ugly hack will come out of it ☺️

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  616. Link Mauve

    Current version is at: https://linkmauve.fr/extensions/xep-muc-avatar.html

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  620. Maranda

    Link Mauve: I meant for the PEP version

  621. Maranda

    Link Mauve: that one is perfectly fine

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  623. Link Mauve

    I’d really really like to deprecate 0153 someday though.

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  625. pep.

    Maranda, shush you :)

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  627. Maranda

    pep.: 😜

  628. Link Mauve

    I vetoed its deprecation back then because of MUC avatars, but I’m now convinced we can implement them using MEP.

  629. Link Mauve

    Or something like that.

  630. Maranda

    Link Mauve: probably by the time you deprecate 153, something to sub 84 will come out as well

  631. Maranda

    If it didn't already

  632. Link Mauve

    What do you think is missing from it?

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  637. Link Mauve

    It would also significantly lower the cost of upgrading to MIC.

  638. Link Mauve

    It would also significantly lower the cost of upgrading to MIX.

  639. Maranda

    I'm not saying that something is missing from it, I'm strongly implying that publish subscribe isn't the holy grail that solves anything and is appropriate for everything

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  680. peter

    jonasw: https://xmpp.org/registrar/ is there but might be updated properly?

  681. peter

    s/might/might not/

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