XSF Discussion - 2018-08-29

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08:24:49 Seve Listen to how XMPP is pronounced: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz0yDNwEydU&feature=youtu.be&t=495 It's like a message from God! :D
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14:52:44 jjrh In regards to the list message "staleness of devices" When we are talking about 'messages' are we referring to stanza's, or specifically the <message/> stanza?
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15:02:58 jonasw given that it’s omemo, we’re probably referring to OMEMO messages
15:03:04 jonasw vanitasvitae, ^
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15:07:11 vanitasvitae jjrh: an OMEMO <encrypted/> element
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15:07:41 vanitasvitae Which is encrypted for our device
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15:08:18 jjrh Ah okay thanks for the clarification.
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15:09:16 vanitasvitae jjrh: :)
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18:36:34 lovetox jdev seems down
18:36:40 lovetox flow: 3.2 Verification of <openpgp/> Content Recipients MUST verify that the signature is valid, that the signature's key corresponds to the sender's key,
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18:37:18 jonasw seems up to me, lovetox
18:37:40 lovetox can we relax this a little bit
18:38:01 lovetox if a contact writes me offline messages, and i dont have the keys yet
18:38:21 jonasw then you have to wait until you have the keys, no?
18:38:23 lovetox this would mean caching all messages for later decryption IF i get the public key
18:38:28 jonasw signature validation sounds kinda important.
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18:39:07 lovetox yes, but it doesnt has to be made instantly
18:39:14 lovetox especially not on first contact
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18:39:46 lovetox i dont know how omemo does that, but i can read offline messages also without querying keys from the contact first
18:40:26 lovetox especially with other rules in the XEP like "blind trust on first contact" which seem to try and make this as easy and painless as possible
18:40:26 jonasw you can’t be sure those aren’t spoofed though
18:41:41 lovetox we are talking about first contact, if a attacker is a man in the middle, he can supply all the data he wants, it does not help me to query keys
18:42:15 lovetox signature verification makes only sense, if i verified that a fingerprint belongs truly to my contact
18:42:23 jonasw but if it’s an offline message, it’s unclear whether the attacker *still* has the power
18:42:32 jonasw it might be that they hijacked a device and were able to send a spoofed message
18:42:36 !XSF_Martin Why not mark the message as 'unverified'
18:42:39 jonasw but that access to the account was revoked?
18:43:06 jonasw lovetox, the contact also might have untrusted devices which intentionally do not have access to the GPG keys and are not used to send or receive GPG messages
18:43:33 jonasw hmm. but those devices could publish forged keys, so nevermind
18:43:55 lovetox !XSF_Martin, not allowed by the XEP
18:44:20 lovetox im not arguing that there cant be a case found where this rule would help to migitate a attack
18:44:29 lovetox the question is, is it worth the hassle
18:44:59 lovetox it does not help against man in the middle which is the biggest risk, we blind trust all keys, this alone is a HUGE risk
18:45:16 jonasw it boils down to: (a) who controls which keys are considered valid vs. who is able to send a message with this sender? and (b) why sign when verification is optional?
18:45:22 lovetox so why beeing so strict on this thing that does certainly not add a new big risk
18:45:42 lovetox jonasw, im not saying verification should be optional
18:46:14 jonasw anyways, gotta run
18:46:24 lovetox just something like, on first contact we can display the messages until we received the key
18:46:27 lovetox or something like that
18:46:44 lovetox i mean i can do this anyway, this XEP MUST is useless because it cant be enforced
18:47:23 lovetox it should be in the business rules or something, a suggestion with an exception or something like that
18:47:45 lovetox always verify, except you hadnt time to receive the key or something
18:48:24 lovetox what im saying, i will not implement this, its not worth the hassle to make the whole client async decrypt messages
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