I thought about offline history sync a little. It would not break PFS if the sync had to be confirmed by the sending device. Like:
Your device "Phone" requested your message history with "User" (someUser@jabber.org). Do you want to send it to him?
> Yes
> Yes and allow all requests by "Phone" for the next 15 Minutes
> No
> No and never allow any request by "Phone"
Like this new devices could sync the history from old devices and then go on with OMEMO just as usual. This would be a one-time sync when a new device first logs in.
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Syndace
Sigh, ">" is for citing... My formatting :(
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Syndace
Should replace "offline history" with "local history" probably
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moparisthebest
Syndace: yep that is what he expected to happen
moparisthebest
I tried to explain that nothing does that now, but it could be standardized and implemented
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!XSF_Martin
Syndace: I would like that. Would solve the usability issue with pfs
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daniel
If you care about history (I personally don't use jabber like that and prefer email for things I need a permanent record of, but I understand why people do) PFS in general and OMEMO in particular might simply not be the right tool
daniel
Use something like OX
daniel
The scenarios where PFS are beneficial are extremely niche
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!XSF_Martin
daniel: ox is gpg? Omemo had the advantage to just tell people 'turn omemo' what is easier than telling to install openpgpchain (or what it is called), create key, enable PGP, choose key...
Is this easier now with the gpg SOC project?
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daniel
Well ox can be better integrated into the client. Clients would create their own keys and keys can be retrieved over xmpp instead of external key servers
!XSF_Martin
> The scenarios where PFS are beneficial are extremely niche
True, for me e2e is important, Pfs not. But omemo had the better usability except the pfs issues.
daniel
So yeah UX should in a way be even better than omemo
daniel
Because of the better handling of Re retrievable history
daniel
And multiple devices sharing the same key
!XSF_Martin
daniel: will you include it in conv? Or have you already?
daniel
I have things that are higher on my priority list and I always said I want different people to lead the way with that (and they have) but I'm not generally opposed
daniel
I'd rather include that then some weird c2c mam with e2ee
1) Topics for decisions: Proposed priorities for 2018-19 board
MattJ
Firstly, thanks for reviewing the survey results and getting the ball rolling on this nyco
nyco
no pb
nyco
I regret this is late, I should have done something earlier
MattJ
Some concrete items in your proposal:
MattJ
1/ we keep/increase the effort on XEPs and engaging the community => SCAM and the CommTeam?
nyco
so, thx for the survey, this helps a lot
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nyco
yeah, makes me think we should measure teams progress in some way
number of summits, meetups, hackathons, sprints, tweets, etc.
MattJ
I think we're doing fine for XEP production, I feel like we have quite a number of authors these days, which is healthy
nyco
filling our current channels (Twitter?) with relevant content, and probably add one or two more
MattJ
Last I heard the newsletter is doing well also, with a healthy growing subscriber count
nyco
where is the nb of subscribers?
Guus
SCAM has been pretty dormant though - that could use some reviving
MattJ
I don't think it's public, but I asked JC a few weeks ago
Guus
I actually had an idea or two on that.
nyco
please
nyco
how much, MattJ ?
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nyco
how many, sorry
MattJ
I don't remember
nyco
hehehe
nyco
1 ? or 2 ? 😉
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nyco
seriously, tens? hundreds? thousands?
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MattJ
Heh, I honestly don't remember, sorry
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MattJ
I was just scanning my logs but can't find it
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nyco
ok
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MattJ
I've asked him again
nyco
thx
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Guus
Let's keep the recommendations from us to next board somewhat broad: "Improve community engagement by explicitly tasking SCAM and Comm WT, and facilitate where needed."
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MattJ
Guus, I think that's sensible
MattJ
nyco, currently 141 subscribers
nyco
good, thx
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Guus
I'm not sure if a recommendation to not change something makes sense, but we can let the record of this meeting show that based on the outcome of the user survey, this board chooses to not change its position on keeping the XSF implementation neutral.
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nyco
we could easily reach out and pass the arbitrary 200 mark
MattJ
That seems sensible to me, yes
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Guus
I'm unsure what to make of what I believe was Nyco's last item: "we delegate and we call for effort to develop support of developers and outreach beyond the XMPP community"
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Guus
what does it mean exactly?
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nyco
the neutrality comes back very often, so I guess we have something to do here
nyco
from my propositions:
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nyco
== Implementation neutrality ==
Given the above and the survey responders have shared+mixed views and opinions, I (Nÿco) propose to stay as it is today.
Given the past discussions and perceived rough consensus, it would be nice if someone added that tag "active"/"dormant" to software projects.
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nyco
thus we keep neutrality, still helping people chose, avoiding inactive/dormant projects, which could be woken up or taken over later
Guus
nyco, I feel that we are already doing both.
Guus
we are currently netural (no change there), and the software listing on our website needs to be renewed every year
nyco
https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html has no active vs dormant label
Guus
that has considerably dropped the amount of inactive projects
Guus
I feel that we're not going to improve much on what we have with this, without getting bogged down in endless discussions on what exactly qualifies as 'inactive' or 'active'
Guus
I suggest we don't improve on that further. What we have works fine-ish.
MattJ
Yes, I'm with that
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Guus
(the list on our website is not nearly as bad as it was 1 year ago)
Guus
or it's been a bit longer perhaps
nyco
an incremental improvement, given our lack of resources, that is very good indeed
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MattJ
I think we won't have much time to discuss more today
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MattJ
I can note the things we agreed on here in the minutes, and the things we may still need to discuss
Guus
wfm
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MattJ
Ok, moving on quick...
MattJ
I see these topics: ED search, fundraising/finances, board tenure
MattJ
Anyone want to discuss any of these in particular?
Guus
not me
nyco
tenure for me
nyco
ok
MattJ
Ok, I'd like to touch on board tenure
MattJ
2) Board tenure
nyco
we're a majority 😉
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MattJ
After reviewing the discussions on the list, I think I'm leaning in favour of not changing anything
MattJ
At least nothing that drastic
nyco
I feel like even though we'd like to improve, things would be too complex, in other terms weak RoI
besides I feel like we have a natural and healthy rotation
Guus
I didn't find any consensus on list.
MattJ
No, I don't think it reached a consensus - I think that's for the board to reach
Guus
I still do think we should find a way to be more productive
Guus
on changing / prolonging tenure explicitly, I ment, Mattj
MattJ
Yes
nyco
oh yeah, commitment, too many absences, too short meetings, non-productive meetings, no meetings properly prepared, no followup, no measure
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MattJ
We're all volunteers, it's a volunteer-based organisation, that's always going to be tricky
Guus
I'm not saying we need to work harder. Maybe we can be smarter about some things though
MattJ
That's partly why I started the year trying to get the fundraising stuff straightened out, because it's one of our biggest failures right now I think
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Guus
One thing that bothers me is that various people use terms as 'unthankful' and 'burn out' when describing work for the XSF
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MattJ
and what can we do to fix that?
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Guus
I don't perceive it as such, but it's worrying me that others do.
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nyco
I do not believe personnally it is 'unthankful' as it is somehow rewarding
also given our amount of work, it is definitely far from 'burn out'
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MattJ
There's a bunch of "boring" tasks to be completed by relatively few people
Guus
MattJ, unsure - give more credits where due might be a starter.
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nyco
pat xep ? 😉
Guus
maybe something for next meeting
Guus
I got to run
nyco
yeah, cool debate to have
nyco
yes, it is already 16:00
nyco
thx both of you
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Guus
also, I will _not_ be able to make +1w
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nyco
I can
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MattJ
Ok, well we'll mark it in the calendar anyway
Guus
ok
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MattJ
Meeting over, thanks both
Guus
thank you
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flow
Is there a good reason why xep333 requires the marker message to contain the original <thread/>?