XSF Discussion - 2018-09-06

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05:33:32 Syndace I thought about offline history sync a little. It would not break PFS if the sync had to be confirmed by the sending device. Like: Your device "Phone" requested your message history with "User" (someUser@jabber.org). Do you want to send it to him? > Yes > Yes and allow all requests by "Phone" for the next 15 Minutes > No > No and never allow any request by "Phone" Like this new devices could sync the history from old devices and then go on with OMEMO just as usual. This would be a one-time sync when a new device first logs in.
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05:34:09 Syndace Sigh, ">" is for citing... My formatting :(
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05:35:18 Syndace Should replace "offline history" with "local history" probably
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05:38:19 moparisthebest Syndace: yep that is what he expected to happen
05:38:53 moparisthebest I tried to explain that nothing does that now, but it could be standardized and implemented
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09:38:13 !XSF_Martin Syndace: I would like that. Would solve the usability issue with pfs
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10:31:31 daniel If you care about history (I personally don't use jabber like that and prefer email for things I need a permanent record of, but I understand why people do) PFS in general and OMEMO in particular might simply not be the right tool
10:31:38 daniel Use something like OX
10:33:14 daniel The scenarios where PFS are beneficial are extremely niche
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10:34:11 !XSF_Martin daniel: ox is gpg? Omemo had the advantage to just tell people 'turn omemo' what is easier than telling to install openpgpchain (or what it is called), create key, enable PGP, choose key... Is this easier now with the gpg SOC project?
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10:35:17 daniel Well ox can be better integrated into the client. Clients would create their own keys and keys can be retrieved over xmpp instead of external key servers
10:35:25 !XSF_Martin > The scenarios where PFS are beneficial are extremely niche True, for me e2e is important, Pfs not. But omemo had the better usability except the pfs issues.
10:35:33 daniel So yeah UX should in a way be even better than omemo
10:35:57 daniel Because of the better handling of Re retrievable history
10:36:05 daniel And multiple devices sharing the same key
10:36:06 !XSF_Martin daniel: will you include it in conv? Or have you already?
10:37:15 daniel I have things that are higher on my priority list and I always said I want different people to lead the way with that (and they have) but I'm not generally opposed
10:37:41 daniel I'd rather include that then some weird c2c mam with e2ee
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10:40:09 !XSF_Martin OK, so I'll stick with omemo for now 😃
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13:30:05 nyco hey, are we gonna have the bard meeting?
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13:30:20 Zash who brings the lute?
13:30:39 MattJ The jester
13:31:43 nyco that makes two, not five
13:32:06 MattJ Guus, ralphm
13:32:31 Guus peekaboo
13:32:40 nyco let's start
13:33:22 Guus I'm entirely unprepared, sorry
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13:33:57 nyco https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
13:36:56 MattJ Ok...
13:36:59 MattJ 0) Role call
13:37:01 nyco https://trello.com/c/Al4GHsYy/311-proposed-prios-for-the-2018-2019-board-based-on-survey maybe?
13:37:11 MattJ Me, Guus, nyco
13:37:14 nyco Matt, Guus, Nyco
13:37:19 nyco Ralph and Martin missing
13:37:29 MattJ Anything that isn't on Trello for agenda?
13:37:37 Guus not from me
13:37:41 MattJ Nor me
13:37:44 nyco next board prios, exec officer
13:37:58 MattJ They are on Trello :)
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13:38:10 nyco ah, board tenure as well
13:38:15 nyco yep
13:38:31 MattJ 1) Topics for decisions: Proposed priorities for 2018-19 board
13:39:03 MattJ Firstly, thanks for reviewing the survey results and getting the ball rolling on this nyco
13:39:52 nyco no pb
13:40:13 nyco I regret this is late, I should have done something earlier
13:40:19 MattJ Some concrete items in your proposal:
13:40:24 MattJ 1/ we keep/increase the effort on XEPs and engaging the community => SCAM and the CommTeam?
13:40:26 nyco so, thx for the survey, this helps a lot
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13:41:10 nyco yeah, makes me think we should measure teams progress in some way number of summits, meetups, hackathons, sprints, tweets, etc.
13:41:12 MattJ I think we're doing fine for XEP production, I feel like we have quite a number of authors these days, which is healthy
13:41:45 nyco filling our current channels (Twitter?) with relevant content, and probably add one or two more
13:41:50 MattJ Last I heard the newsletter is doing well also, with a healthy growing subscriber count
13:42:08 nyco where is the nb of subscribers?
13:42:20 Guus SCAM has been pretty dormant though - that could use some reviving
13:42:28 MattJ I don't think it's public, but I asked JC a few weeks ago
13:42:31 Guus I actually had an idea or two on that.
13:42:38 nyco please
13:42:55 nyco how much, MattJ ?
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13:43:03 nyco how many, sorry
13:43:06 MattJ I don't remember
13:43:10 nyco hehehe
13:43:15 nyco 1 ? or 2 ? 😉
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13:43:37 nyco seriously, tens? hundreds? thousands?
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13:43:59 MattJ Heh, I honestly don't remember, sorry
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13:44:04 MattJ I was just scanning my logs but can't find it
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13:44:32 nyco ok
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13:44:39 MattJ I've asked him again
13:44:47 nyco thx
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13:44:53 Guus Let's keep the recommendations from us to next board somewhat broad: "Improve community engagement by explicitly tasking SCAM and Comm WT, and facilitate where needed."
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13:45:09 MattJ Guus, I think that's sensible
13:45:25 MattJ nyco, currently 141 subscribers
13:45:30 nyco good, thx
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13:46:38 Guus I'm not sure if a recommendation to not change something makes sense, but we can let the record of this meeting show that based on the outcome of the user survey, this board chooses to not change its position on keeping the XSF implementation neutral.
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13:47:00 nyco we could easily reach out and pass the arbitrary 200 mark
13:47:02 MattJ That seems sensible to me, yes
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13:47:21 Guus I'm unsure what to make of what I believe was Nyco's last item: "we delegate and we call for effort to develop support of developers and outreach beyond the XMPP community"
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13:47:41 Guus what does it mean exactly?
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13:47:52 nyco the neutrality comes back very often, so I guess we have something to do here
13:47:59 nyco from my propositions:
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13:48:00 nyco == Implementation neutrality == Given the above and the survey responders have shared+mixed views and opinions, I (Nÿco) propose to stay as it is today. Given the past discussions and perceived rough consensus, it would be nice if someone added that tag "active"/"dormant" to software projects.
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13:48:35 nyco thus we keep neutrality, still helping people chose, avoiding inactive/dormant projects, which could be woken up or taken over later
13:48:51 Guus nyco, I feel that we are already doing both.
13:49:21 Guus we are currently netural (no change there), and the software listing on our website needs to be renewed every year
13:49:23 nyco https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html has no active vs dormant label
13:49:35 Guus that has considerably dropped the amount of inactive projects
13:50:13 Guus I feel that we're not going to improve much on what we have with this, without getting bogged down in endless discussions on what exactly qualifies as 'inactive' or 'active'
13:50:48 Guus I suggest we don't improve on that further. What we have works fine-ish.
13:51:13 MattJ Yes, I'm with that
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13:51:59 Guus (the list on our website is not nearly as bad as it was 1 year ago)
13:52:10 Guus or it's been a bit longer perhaps
13:52:25 nyco an incremental improvement, given our lack of resources, that is very good indeed
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13:53:27 MattJ I think we won't have much time to discuss more today
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13:53:53 MattJ I can note the things we agreed on here in the minutes, and the things we may still need to discuss
13:54:01 Guus wfm
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13:55:14 MattJ Ok, moving on quick...
13:55:43 MattJ I see these topics: ED search, fundraising/finances, board tenure
13:55:56 MattJ Anyone want to discuss any of these in particular?
13:56:03 Guus not me
13:56:07 nyco tenure for me
13:56:10 nyco ok
13:56:12 MattJ Ok, I'd like to touch on board tenure
13:56:20 MattJ 2) Board tenure
13:56:23 nyco we're a majority 😉
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13:56:49 MattJ After reviewing the discussions on the list, I think I'm leaning in favour of not changing anything
13:57:03 MattJ At least nothing that drastic
13:57:14 nyco I feel like even though we'd like to improve, things would be too complex, in other terms weak RoI besides I feel like we have a natural and healthy rotation
13:58:08 Guus I didn't find any consensus on list.
13:58:25 MattJ No, I don't think it reached a consensus - I think that's for the board to reach
13:58:28 Guus I still do think we should find a way to be more productive
13:58:48 Guus on changing / prolonging tenure explicitly, I ment, Mattj
13:58:57 MattJ Yes
13:59:08 nyco oh yeah, commitment, too many absences, too short meetings, non-productive meetings, no meetings properly prepared, no followup, no measure
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13:59:49 MattJ We're all volunteers, it's a volunteer-based organisation, that's always going to be tricky
14:00:15 Guus I'm not saying we need to work harder. Maybe we can be smarter about some things though
14:00:25 MattJ That's partly why I started the year trying to get the fundraising stuff straightened out, because it's one of our biggest failures right now I think
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14:00:49 Guus One thing that bothers me is that various people use terms as 'unthankful' and 'burn out' when describing work for the XSF
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14:01:31 MattJ and what can we do to fix that?
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14:01:36 Guus I don't perceive it as such, but it's worrying me that others do.
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14:01:49 nyco I do not believe personnally it is 'unthankful' as it is somehow rewarding also given our amount of work, it is definitely far from 'burn out'
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14:01:55 MattJ There's a bunch of "boring" tasks to be completed by relatively few people
14:02:03 Guus MattJ, unsure - give more credits where due might be a starter.
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14:02:28 nyco pat xep ? 😉
14:02:40 Guus maybe something for next meeting
14:02:42 Guus I got to run
14:02:53 nyco yeah, cool debate to have
14:03:00 nyco yes, it is already 16:00
14:03:03 nyco thx both of you
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14:03:16 Guus also, I will _not_ be able to make +1w
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14:03:22 nyco I can
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14:03:47 MattJ Ok, well we'll mark it in the calendar anyway
14:03:52 Guus ok
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14:03:56 MattJ Meeting over, thanks both
14:04:03 Guus thank you
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17:08:18 flow Is there a good reason why xep333 requires the marker message to contain the original <thread/>?
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