XSF Discussion - 2018-09-18

  1. neshtaxmpp hi sslh was configured but it log in syslog, it was followed this manual: http://william.shallum.net/random-notes/sslh-configuring-logging-logrotate-and-logwatch and it still log in syslod, sslh was restart and same
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  17. moparisthebest I mean the answer is you configure them however you want
  18. moparisthebest You need to understand ips and ports and what sslh does though, you aren't going to find a copy paste Tut for it
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  23. moparisthebest peter: nice so 'I'm going to generalize about all federated systems then come up with one that isn't federated because I haven't considered how to solve those problems in a federated system'
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  37. neshtaxmpp moparisthebest: your tutorial was good... but it suck... simply step by step... and you have to remove , from line 16... Imagine, today you was online... person want install ssllh, he see your tutorial, start scratch in hear... make everything correctly... after some hours to see how to make it work " without step by step he need to lost hime time " and when he run sshl -F /etc/sslh.cfg it will comment " error in line 16 " he will start again scratch head hair and agai other 1 day to configure how to repair the problem. so 2 days to install, configure and run sslhd. but here come true life. what happend if he dont find you moparisthebest... so he has to wait more days... maybe 2 days more until you return... or maybe 1 month... or maybe 1 year... becouse when person dont know how to run somethink. he has to wait untill someone help him... so imagine he has to wait 1 year untill someone or you appear help him. this is 1 year to remove one " simply SHIT , " if he has goodluck he cab wait 1 year, and if he dont habe goodluck it can be 2 years... and more... so for some manual that can work 10 min. he has to wait 1 year or more years... to someone help him. moparisthebest today you can have internet, tomorrow do you know if you are gonna have internet... you can " i pay money " - > piu piu... you can money but when government say no more internet there will be no more internet...
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  39. neshtaxmpp moparisthebest: and who is the not federated server...
  40. neshtaxmpp moparisthebest: is this some kind of indirect you want my help for federated system. if i can i will help.
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  45. neshtaxmpp moparisthebest: sslh is program for linux " unknown if it work in macos " that help peoples with limited ports. all other ports blocked only open 443 and 80 -> only for viewing web sites... sslh enter here and safe peoples... limited port and firewall... have noce day.
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  69. moparisthebest What in the world kind of drunken rant was that
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  92. neshtaxmpp What in the world kind of drunken rant was that
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  157. edhelas I had some though on OMEMO and related metadata, the problem with OMEMO (and other e2ee solutions) is that they are only encrypting the body element. I was wondering if we couldn't also encrypt, using the same key, the other value of the other attributes of the message (by adding a namespace to those elements for example). For SIMS we could then encrypt <media-type>, <name>, <thumbnail cid…>.
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  160. edhelas This will still leak some "structural metadata" but at least the content should be protected. And it should be fairly easy to implement it in clients (we have to check for the retro compability).
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  172. lovetox its a bit more work then just encrypting everything
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  175. lovetox there are elements you dont want to encrypt
  176. edhelas yes :)
  177. lovetox and these have to be specified :)
  178. lovetox as daniel often said, there is probably no one against full stanza encryption, just no one did write it up yet
  179. edhelas that's why I'm saying that we should put a specific tag or namespace for those specific tags
  180. edhelas the problem with full stanza encryption is that it requires to hack the parser behavior and thing that should be encrypted and things that shoudn't can't be on the sams XML depth anymore
  181. lovetox full stanza encryption is specified in 0373 and i think 0200
  182. lovetox also a question was, it should be specified what happens if i find a tag inside the encrypted payload, and outside
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  184. daniel Or what happens if there is a tag outside that influences the inside. For example a message correction tag
  185. lovetox i think we should probably ignore all outside tags except a certain whitelist
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  188. lovetox but then the problem is, if new xeps arise we have to update that list
  189. jonas’ I wonder which tags are relevant to clients && must not be encrypted
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  192. lovetox eme for one
  193. lovetox its not about client, its about server
  194. lovetox hints for example
  195. jonas’ sure
  196. jonas’ but the server shouldn’t care about the encrypted payload
  197. jonas’ and the client shouldn’t care about the unencrypted payload (in general)
  198. jonas’ you know where I’m getting at?
  199. daniel > i think we should probably ignore all outside tags except a certain whitelist Thats what I proposed years ago
  200. jonas’ i.e. the whitelist will probably be encryption-metadata like EME, and everything else can be ignored by the client.
  201. daniel I can only think of stanza and origin id
  202. jonas’ or stanza-metadata, hm, yes.
  203. daniel Eme is only relevant _before_ the decryption
  204. lovetox yes stanza-id
  205. daniel And can be thrown away later
  206. lovetox but this is added by the server anyway
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  208. lovetox but should not be ignored yes
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  235. edhelas https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18013275
  236. edhelas ?
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  362. edhelas MattJ thanks for the comment :)
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  398. edhelas https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/2535-ActivityPub-hot-take
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  523. ralphm Instead of retrieving all history from MAM, I'd like to ask the archive the last message for each party I conversed with to build a chronological index, and then progressively retrieve history when going into one of them.
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  525. ralphm Has anyone had a use case like this? If so, how did you solve it?
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  527. MattJ ralphm, I was planning to write an extension for that. MAP (Message Archive Preview) :)
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  529. Seve/SouL Sounds great
  530. MattJ It seems clients are favouring the per-contact sync, instead of sync-everything
  531. ralphm I could imagine maybe a boolean field in the MAM Data Form that indicates you only want one for each party?
  532. MattJ Potentially, yes
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  536. ralphm MattJ: indeed. Also in our case, we don't really have a roster
  537. ralphm You have people on your (phone) contact list, and then other sources of things to talk to, like groups and non-people.
  538. ralphm By the way, I love the MAP backronym.
  539. MattJ :)
  540. MattJ Fancy working on the XEP?
  541. Zash I do believe Kev has talked about some kind of summary like this as well
  542. MattJ Reality is, I probably won't get to it for a couple of weeks at least
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  549. Ge0rG It's much better than the CSI backronym.
  550. ralphm We probably are fast-moving on this, but that doesn't mean I can't work on a standard for it and move to that later
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  568. lovetox ralphm, do you request the last message for every contact in the roster on start?
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  572. lovetox my question is about how do you solve the problem that you cannot know what the last conversation was in a multi device env
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  575. lovetox so how do you knwo which jids to sync
  576. jonas’ lovetox, all
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  579. Zash Last message per contact
  580. lovetox since a certain mam-id
  581. lovetox obviously, otherwise this would be very expensive
  582. Zash That sounds massively more expensive
  583. Zash Keeping the last ID per roster entry in a cache seems doable
  584. jonas’ note that ralphm was specifically talking about not really having a roster
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  587. ralphm No, no roster
  588. Zash You know I'll cry if you design a thing that requires a SQL RDBM
  589. Ge0rG `SELECT MAX(uuid),* FROM contacts, messages WHERE contacts.jid = messages.jid;`
  590. jonas’ > MAX(uuid)
  591. lovetox what does that mean no roster, you talk only to a single jid? because if you have knowledge about more than one jid in your application you have a roster, i dont see how it is relevant if this roster is kept on the server or on the client
  592. jonas’ that’s not how it works.
  593. ralphm My thinking was that you do a MAM request to get all message history, but instruct it to only return one entry per unique other entity you've contacted (other user, room, whatever)
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  595. Ge0rG jonas’: stop spoiling my fun
  596. jonas’ lovetox, it is relevant for the server-side MAM implementation whether it knows which JIDs are relevant or whether it has to assume they all are
  597. Zash No nice things allowed.
  598. Ge0rG ralphm: that might explode if you have chatted to many entities. Or if you were bot-flooded.
  599. ralphm lovetox: in our case, instead of a roster, we have a native mobile phone address book, and retrieve matches from the server. Not unlike apps like WhatsApp do.
  600. ralphm Ge0rG: well, you can paginate this too, no?
  601. ralphm Ge0rG: or are you worried about the server side complexity of 'the last one' per contact?
  602. lovetox ralphm do you store the messages on the phone?
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  604. ralphm lovetox: cache, yes
  605. Ge0rG ralphm: both, actually
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  608. ralphm but you definitely don't want to retrieve all messages at once either, most of the time you only need history for a contact when you start chatting
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  610. jonas’ ralphm, I’m not sure how many messages you are expecting between reconnects and how many contacts you expect people to have, but if the message load is "regular", you might get less traffic with normal "MAM since last connct" than what you propose
  611. ralphm jonas’: not on a reinstall
  612. jonas’ because the one is O(number of contacts ever ever spoken to [monotonically increasing]) and the other is O(number of contacts actively sending messages times average message rate per contact times offline time [approximately constant])
  613. Ge0rG or when you didn't charge your phone for a month.
  614. jonas’ ralphm, okay, that makes sense
  615. jonas’ but on a reinstall, I wouldn’t worry too much and just do a MAM query for each phonebook entry
  616. ralphm eh no
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  618. jonas’ do you expect huge phone books?
  619. Ge0rG jonas’: there is an upper bound due to the typical history age timeout, so you'll only get the contacts you chatted to in the last 14d or so
  620. lovetox if you have implemented something like that, im very interested how you did it, i try to find a way to backfill the history since a month, and all i can come up is that its not possible without lossing the order of the messages
  621. jonas’ Ge0rG, depends on the history model on the server side, really
  622. ralphm Ge0rG: indeed. I could imagine retrieving the last 7 days of history, but you still want an entry for people you talked to longer ago
  623. ralphm And then if you go into one of those chats, you can still backfill that contact
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  625. Ge0rG ralphm: so you are also asking for indefinite storage of all JIDs you had a chat with?
  626. ralphm The thing is that you don't want a full history sync when you reinstall an app or switched phones or whatever
  627. ralphm Ge0rG: might still be definite, but still different from a contact list. Contact lists change and also you want the chronological order
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  631. ralphm The server-side complexity of getting a list like this is an implementation detail. It could be part of the storage model, or you can build and cache an index based on the actual full history.
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