XSF Discussion - 2018-09-25

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00:13:45 Maranda SamWhited, and it's not falling back either on malformed request...
00:13:52 Maranda I'll have to blacklist the mechanism
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00:15:31 SamWhited Oh yah, it doesn't do that, otherwise it would be a potential DOS
00:15:49 SamWhited It only falls back if the feature isn't advertised at all and no successful auth has caused a mechanism to be pinned, IIRC
00:16:05 SamWhited *a higher-priority mechanism to be pinned
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07:42:05 edhelas was there some discussions regarding the GDPR and the usage of transports with XMPP ?
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09:33:40 edhelas > and Mojave completes the transition by pulling out Jabber support
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09:36:50 Zash Who
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09:41:39 edhelas macOS Mojave, the state of XMPP in iMessage was already bad, now it's gone
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09:41:56 edhelas so leave us with not much actually
09:42:38 edhelas Dino doesn't has a stable built yet for macOS, Adium is based on libpurple, there's maybe Swift
09:42:47 edhelas and Movim but it's an Electron client :p
09:43:08 jonas’ gajim?
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09:45:36 edhelas yes indeed
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10:18:37 Zash Monal?
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10:44:43 goffi Cagou (SàT) is working on Mac OS, but need people to test it (I have no Mac myself)
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13:35:40 dos there's Monal, but it still feels somewhat beta, especially regarding MUCs
13:36:52 Ge0rG And it's absent from the EU.
13:36:52 dos I've tried it when looking for a client for gf, but eventually opted to fixing movim's electron client, it really felt like the best xmpp chat option on macOS :P
13:37:43 dos I'm in Poland and I downloaded it from the app store... month ago?
13:37:53 dos but it might be absent on iOS
13:38:17 Zash GDPR FUD ey?
13:40:28 dos well, yeah, when I read the blog post on Monal site I facepalmed pretty hard xd
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13:41:26 dos it would be way more understandable for Movim to have such concerns, but Monal?
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13:42:54 dos I mean... unless there's something in Monal we don't know about ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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13:43:22 edhelas Maybe for Movim as well ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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13:49:33 moparisthebest Speaking as a service operator who has 'banned EU residents' we don't really care if you use it, just don't want to be bothered with GDPR crap
13:50:10 Link Mauve Because it’s so hard to just not sell our data, and to allow us to retrieve or delete it.
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13:50:57 moparisthebest Will I can lie to your face and swear I've audited everything and I'm compliant
13:51:04 moparisthebest Or just not bother
13:51:17 moparisthebest I'm probably compliant, just don't care
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14:06:30 Maranda Too bad that GDPR protects nothing basically, and causes only annoyances to operators and ultimately users. One of those proper "EU style" things.
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14:08:02 Maranda Like the latest filter shit they came out with, that's just brilliant.
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14:13:12 moparisthebest yep Maranda basically that
14:13:31 moparisthebest GDPR compliance costs google and facebook nothing, they already have a million engineers, customer service, and lawyers
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14:14:26 moparisthebest meanwhile now I have to know journald's default retention period, make sure it doesn't change with updates, document it somewhere public, hire an EU rep, then have a lawyer check over everything and declare if I'm GDPR compliant or not?
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14:14:54 moparisthebest or... I can just tell EU residents to buzz off and not think about it. :D
14:15:01 Maranda And they can pay the fines anyways or refuse to, and eventually just bury EU under tons of stamped paper.
14:15:45 Zash It got kinda tiresome to read that kind of thing in May.
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14:19:50 Maranda 🤣
14:25:31 Ge0rG especially as most of it is wrong.
14:26:19 Zash As I said before, > GDPR FUD ey?
14:26:21 moparisthebest Ge0rG, allow me to simplify, if not required by law, is it easier to care about it or not care about it? :)
14:26:47 Ge0rG moparisthebest: if you want to use my data, you better know where it's stored
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14:27:42 moparisthebest Ge0rG, so you know the retention period of every log on every server, and go line by line over all code changes every update to make sure it doesn't change?
14:27:53 moparisthebest cause, that sounds like a lot of work compared to 'not caring'
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14:29:06 dos GDPR doesn't care about your "every log"
14:30:09 Ge0rG moparisthebest: in the strictest sense I've seen so far, you need to ensure that if you roll back a backup, all accounts deleted since that backup will be deleted after the rollback
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14:32:52 moparisthebest and that means what for IRC
14:33:57 moparisthebest also, by definition, if my server explodes and I have to restore from backup, how would I ever know which accounts had been deleted in between date-of-last-backup and server-explosion
14:34:06 moparisthebest that's an insane requirement
14:34:38 Ge0rG moparisthebest: since when does an IRC server store *anything*?
14:34:45 moparisthebest services and logs
14:35:57 Ge0rG moparisthebest: I'm not sure if you are attempting to be ignorant or arrogant here. I'm sure you haven't missed first my and then the XSF announcement of an XMPP server data privacy template. You could have just copied the relevant section about logging from there.
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14:36:16 moparisthebest seriously though, with any type of service, if you are restoring from backup you presumably don't have any data from before that backup right?
14:36:22 moparisthebest such as, what accounts were deleted
14:38:39 Ge0rG Sorry, I have some real work to be done. If you need further assistance, I can ask my emplyer for a consulting offer :P
14:39:09 moparisthebest thanks for confirming what I said about google/facebook being able to afford GDPR compliance and normal people not being able to
14:40:11 SamWhited As far as I can tell the GDPR is mostly perfectly reasonable requirements, unlike most of the tech laws that come out of europe. If you can't afford compliance, you're probably either misunderstanding and aren't covered by it or shouldn't be operating a service that stores other peoples private data.
14:40:13 Ge0rG moparisthebest: the good thing is that normal people will not be held to the same standards as Google.
14:40:43 moparisthebest good thing is people outside the insanity that is EU won't be held to those insane standards at all
14:40:59 Zash Yeah the requirements and therefore costs seemed to scale with size well enough
14:41:41 SamWhited What's insane about requiring that you disclose who you're sharing user data with and making it easy for them to ask you to purge it? That seems perfectly reasonable.
14:41:43 Ge0rG moparisthebest: oh, right. It's much better to live in a country where your ISP is free to datamine you, sell your location data to the highest bidder, to slow down your video streaming and to inject ads into your traffic.
14:43:24 moparisthebest all networks are to be treated as an attacker, that's what encryption/authentication is for
14:43:51 moparisthebest not 'please don't look at my data sir'
14:44:20 SamWhited So encrypt your data? The law heavily encourages that because you're more responsible for losing your users data
14:44:34 Ge0rG moparisthebest: oh, great. Now tell me about that magic protocol that will protect my traffic from all analysis, even from traffic pattern recognition
14:45:07 Ge0rG and don't say "use VPN" because the VPN provider is obviously subject to the same (lack of) laws
14:45:15 moparisthebest are ISPs doing that now, I thought only govts that aren't affected by these laws did that anyhow
14:45:30 moparisthebest doesn't seem like there would be a lot of money in it
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14:45:49 Ge0rG moparisthebest: https://eu.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/04/04/isps-can-now-collect-and-sell-your-data-what-know-internet-privacy/100015356/
14:45:59 SamWhited None of this has anything to do with the law other than that it encourages is by making you more responsible though. I'm not even sure what the encryption thing was about, are you suggesting the law should have been *more* specific and required it?
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14:46:53 Ge0rG SamWhited: I think moparisthebest was speaking of encryption as a means for users to protect themselves from data collection
14:47:12 SamWhited Ge0rG: which is fine, I just don't see what that has to do with this argument unless it's just a strawman
14:47:15 moparisthebest SamWhited, I'm suggesting laws are useless with regard to internet privacy, and that encryption is the only option
14:47:38 SamWhited If nothing else tons of companies have now put "Delete account" buttons on their product, which sounds great. That's not useless.
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14:47:51 SamWhited They also are making lists of all the people that they're selling or otherwise sharing my data with, which has been very nice.
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14:48:20 Link Mauve moparisthebest, now please tell me how to encrypt my Facebook friends in a way to prevent Facebook from knowing them.
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14:48:24 SamWhited So it doens't appear that laws related to the internet are useless, quite the contrary, it's been fantastic.
14:48:33 Link Mauve And from selling this graph to some other companies.
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14:48:42 Ge0rG SamWhited: nice but illegal. Almost none of the big data-selling news outlets actually honor the opt-in requirement
14:48:58 Ge0rG SamWhited: and most just say "if you don't want our tracking, delete your cookies"
14:49:01 SamWhited Ge0rG: so your argument is that some people won't follow laws, so we shouldn't have any?
14:49:24 Ge0rG SamWhited: not at all. As a user, I love the GDPR
14:49:28 Link Mauve Ge0rG, now let’s wait until enough of their users sue them.
14:49:41 Link Mauve Now that the EU introduced class actions too.
14:49:54 Zash What if we have both laws and tech to back them up?
14:49:57 moparisthebest Link Mauve, easy, if you don't give them the data, they don't have it
14:50:25 Ge0rG moparisthebest: you can't not give your data to a web site you are visiting
14:50:55 SamWhited Anyways, I'm a big fan. It gets me frustrated when people dismiss it as another link tax sort of law that doesn't make sense, having implemented it at two companies where it *definitely* made the users data safer
14:51:03 Link Mauve moparisthebest, I can also throw away my computer and start growing potatoes, but that’s not something most people will want to do.
14:51:45 Link Mauve Also, I am able to understand the implications of giving my data to Facebook, while most people aren’t.
14:52:42 SamWhited Yah, if you have superpowers and can convince everyone to get off facebook, great, do that. In the mean time, since they're already on it, we need some sort of law that requires that Facebook plays nicely when they leave and cleans up their data.
14:54:38 Ge0rG except that facebook isn't following the law, so we'll see some major fines in the next five to twenty years.
14:54:45 moparisthebest so what's your opinion of latest EU laws? the actual link tax, and forced filtering of all uploaded content?
14:54:57 moparisthebest are those good like GDPR too or is that over the line?
14:55:16 moparisthebest I haven't seen the prosody or ejabberd modules to scan all stanzas for copyright violations that will be required either so
14:55:19 Ge0rG moparisthebest: those are utter junk, pushed forward by big media lobbying
14:55:21 SamWhited Those don't make any sense and are garbage because they're pretty much impossible to follow. The GDPR just lists basic data protections you should have been doing anyways
14:56:07 SamWhited But I also haven't helped implement those anywhere, so I don't really know who has to follow them or what the specific details are.
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14:57:31 moparisthebest I agree the general basis of the GDPR is good general data practice to follow, I think it's both unenforceable in general and onerous to small operators though, and shouldn't really be a law, meh
14:58:17 SamWhited God I wish we had something similar here; I'm sure it's not perfect, but I'm pretty okay with it being onerous if those small operators weren't bothering to protect my data before
14:58:57 Ge0rG moparisthebest: it wouldn't have become a law if everybody was respecting users' privacy from day 1
14:59:02 SamWhited As for unenforceable, I have no idea. We'll see if fines start rolling out or not I guess. But even if it's unenforceable, it's made two companies I've worked for improve their practices, so it seems to be doing good either way.
14:59:28 Ge0rG and I'm sure it will be enforced.
14:59:51 Ge0rG It just takes time. Significant time. Have a look at the timeframe of the Google Android antitrust case.
15:00:26 SamWhited yah, I don't see why it wouldn't be, it seems straight forward enough… we may not have similar laws in the U.S., but people complain to the FCC about Google and then Google gets fined all the time. This seems to be the same just with more teeth.
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15:01:03 SamWhited (or whomever, Google's just a good stand in for "large company doing things they probably shouldn't be")
15:01:33 Ge0rG Heh
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15:20:49 edhelas ok let's move the discussion there Link Mauve
15:20:51 edhelas regarding https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/muc-avatars.html
15:21:06 edhelas what is the current supports of the code 104 in XMPP clients ?
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15:59:29 edhelas I'm currently having some though on that XEP and I'd like to propose some changes to generalize it
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16:00:11 edhelas the core idea of this XEP is to expose the vcard hash in the bare MUC JID disco#info and notify it using a message 104
16:00:42 edhelas I'd like to propose to do that for also disco#info of Pubsub nodes and all JIDs (including users ones)
16:01:15 edhelas the notification will then be done using a message for MUC, presence or message for users and pubsub message for Pubsub nodes
16:01:27 edhelas then we basically cover all the cases using the same core mechanism
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17:32:08 Maranda SamWhited, if eventually you wanna have some fun ™️ https://conference.gajim.org:5281/pastebin/cd179f64-2dff-4968-9b36-c45b874b48fa
17:32:11 Maranda :D
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17:33:31 SamWhited My SCRAM implementation can take any generic hash algorithm, so they're already implemented. On the other hand, those aren't actually defined anywhere and haven't been vetted, so probably not a good idea to use them :)
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17:35:05 jonas’ which are not?
17:35:40 SamWhited Anything other than SHA1 and SHA256, to my knowledge
17:36:20 jonas’ right
17:36:39 jonas’ although, I think SCRAM doesn’t care *too* much about the hash, as long as the hash is reversible; i.e. it should be as safe as any as long as the hash used is safe
17:36:46 jonas’ (that’s a property of PBKDF2 even)
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17:37:28 SamWhited Yah, it should be safe, but probably best not to use random hash algorithms that aren't defined anywhere for no reason; SHA-1 and SHA-256 are both fine.
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17:37:43 jonas’ hmmm
17:37:45 SamWhited Kafka supports SCRAM-SHA-512 for some reason, so I guess you could use it with that
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17:38:37 jonas’ Maranda, if you just want to poke at your implementation, aioxmpp should support all of those (if your build of python has them).
17:38:51 jonas’ you’d have to play some tricks to force it to use a specific one of them though)
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17:38:55 SamWhited ugg, does aiosasl support all these too? That makes me sad
17:39:14 Maranda 👍
17:39:32 jonas’ SamWhited, I don’t see a convincing argument for *not* allowing other variants of the SHA-2 family if one variant of the SHA-2 family is specified
17:39:42 SamWhited Where security is concerned, just randomly changing things because it has a bigger number or whatever probably isn't a good idea. I can't imagine how this would go wrong, but for compatibility if nothing else it makes me sad that people are implementing them and other people consuming the library who don't know any better will think it's osmething to use
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17:40:28 SamWhited I don't see a convincing argument to implement them, and as far as I'm concerned the burden of proof should be on that side of things whenver auth is concerned.
17:40:34 jonas’ to be honest, I somewhat assumed that they were specified due to the wildcard in the IANA registry
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17:41:03 SamWhited Oh, interesting; I could be wrong. I didn't see an RFC though, does the IANA registry link to a document?
17:41:15 jonas’ yes, to the one for SCRAM-SHA-256
17:41:17 jonas’ https://www.iana.org/assignments/sasl-mechanisms/sasl-mechanisms.xhtml
17:41:25 jonas’ I guess technically this is just a reservation of the SCRAM- prefix
17:41:58 SamWhited Oh, yah, that's just a reservation for the entire familyl
17:42:05 jonas’ Note to future SCRAM-mechanism designers: each new SASL SCRAM mechanism MUST be explicitly registered with IANA within the SASL SCRAM Family Mechanisms registry.
17:42:08 jonas’ yeah
17:42:10 jonas’ that’s pretty explicit
17:42:18 jonas’ also a very convincing argument to remove support
17:46:51 jonas’ SamWhited, there you go https://github.com/horazont/aiosasl/issues/6
17:47:38 jonas’ the "minimum iteration count" parameter of the registry is interesting, too
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17:49:24 SamWhited ♡ thanks; between security concerns and standardization concerns this makes me very happy.
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17:54:01 Maranda hm, interesting, well the implementation in Metronome is SHA digesting algorithm agnostic as well so it doesn't matter.
17:55:25 SamWhited It matters in the sense that this is auth which is extremely important and security sensitive. In crypto, tiny insubstantial changes can often have a big impact that we don't forsee; it's not exactly intuitive. I doubt this is a problem, but it doesn't help to add more algorithms for no reason and it *possibly* hurts. Might as well just leave it to the experts and not make up your own crypto.
17:55:31 SamWhited has huge pet peeve about this sort of thing
17:56:28 jonas’ me too, normally, but I hadn’t seen this as "making up new crypto" to be honest
17:56:56 SamWhited Well, "changing existing crypto", then. I agree, I can't imagine this possibly causes any problems, but it's also not necessary so why take the risk?
17:57:13 jonas’ yeah
17:57:26 Maranda SamWhited, I didn't mean that way :P
17:57:37 SamWhited Heh, cool; sorry I'm being grumpy about it.
17:57:44 jonas’ ’tis fine
17:58:08 SamWhited This is just the kind of thing where I expect the longer hash will cause some buffer operation to behave slightly differently on some architecture and then suddenly you have a side channel, or something.
17:58:28 Maranda I didn't know they weren't defined either, blame google for returning result on SCRAM-SHA-384 and SCRAM-SHA-512
17:58:31 SamWhited (well, I don't "expect" it, but I could see it happening)
17:58:40 Maranda I didn't know they weren't defined either, blame google for returning results on SCRAM-SHA-384 and SCRAM-SHA-512
17:58:58 jonas’ that doesn’t make sense to me, actually
17:59:03 jonas’ that would be a fundamental problem of pbkdf2 then
17:59:09 jonas’ which I think we would know about
17:59:27 jonas’ (we = the cryptography community, thus warning louder against it and deprecating pbkdf2 for that reason)
17:59:45 SamWhited I was just making up a random example, I agree it's not likely
17:59:50 jonas’ sure
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