XSF Discussion - 2018-09-27

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05:54:24 Ge0rG moparisthebest: https://blog.cloudflare.com/esni/ > As ISPs increasingly acquire media companies and ad targeting businesses, being able to mine the data flowing through their pipes is an increasingly attractive business for them and an increasingly troubling privacy threat to all of us.
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06:00:14 jonas’ nice
06:00:20 jonas’ nobody had time to look into the website apparently
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06:02:29 jonas’ I’m back on it, I have a hunch what might have happened
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06:19:44 jonas’ I think I have a hotfix, waiting for the build to prove me either right or wrong :)
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06:27:01 jonas’ bear, can you please confirm that the content somebody reported missing is back?
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09:01:11 edhelas hi everyone, I've posted a messages on standards a couple of days ago and I'd like some feedback before I start my work on he adjustements :) https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2018-September/035361.html
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11:43:56 moparisthebest ugh Ge0rG , not the RFC I was following, it mentions that one of it's hard requirements was 'do not stick out' so they just... decided to stick out anyway...
11:44:29 moparisthebest still, they are correct if all the browsers support this, it'll no longer stick out
11:44:57 Ge0rG moparisthebest: it looks like you are responding to a different point than the one I made, but this is okay.
11:45:00 moparisthebest the other downside is the other RFC draft encrypted *all* extensions, so ALPN etc was free
11:45:48 moparisthebest ah well I agree with that Ge0rG , but if anything this proves what I said, encryption is the answer, not legislation
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11:46:59 Ge0rG moparisthebest: you can't encrypt all the things. And if you try, governments will mandate backdoors
11:48:48 moparisthebest I disagree, I think you certainly can encrypt all the things
11:49:18 moparisthebest and, only bad governments, plus, they are already mandating backdoors aren't they?
11:49:32 Zash Encryption does not exist in a vacuum.
11:50:59 Ge0rG https://www.caliopen.org/en/ > Privacy for all of your online correspondance. Caliopen collects in a single interface private messages from mobile apps (Twitter, Facebook), email, instant messaging, texts… I can't even...
11:51:20 Ge0rG moparisthebest: bad governments like the US of A?
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11:52:34 moparisthebest so far USA hasn't mandated backdoors, only requested them
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11:53:17 moparisthebest USA seems to have by far the best 'free speech' protections, which also relates to encryption, so hopefully it will be fine
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12:08:24 edhelas Ge0rG that is the project from Laurent Chemla :p
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12:13:57 flow edhelas, who is Laurent Chemla?
12:15:41 edhelas one of the founder of Gandi https://www.gandi.net/en https://twitter.com/laurentchemla
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12:17:46 flow I see
12:18:56 edhelas but yeah Caliopen looks weird to me
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12:39:13 Ge0rG edhelas: they plugged into the WA E2EE thread at https://twitter.com/alexstamos/status/1045045964245950465 and I wondered about their mystical "E2E with business model" pitch, just to land on _that_ page
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13:30:08 ralphm set the topic to XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
13:30:16 ralphm bangs gavel
13:30:21 ralphm 0. Welcome and agenda
13:30:25 ralphm Hi!
13:30:28 ralphm Who do we have?
13:30:32 nyco oh hey!
13:30:37 nyco _o/
13:31:14 nyco Guus is here
13:31:21 Guus is here
13:31:24 nyco (we were privately ch...
13:31:25 nyco see?
13:31:26 nyco ;-)
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13:31:52 ralphm MattJ?
13:31:52 Guus nyco: my client lost the tab in which I was one-on-one chatting with you
13:31:58 Guus dind't get the last two lines I think
13:32:05 ralphm Guus: no MAM?
13:32:09 nyco I've been omemo'ed
13:32:16 MattJ Hey
13:32:22 Guus ralphm: I can't see his contact / tab
13:32:22 ralphm Ok. Let's go
13:32:23 nyco no, it's just that azxoraeiczhtrneipvhscrgxueygbuazeyogvxofbouezgxouyewrb
13:32:30 Guus nyco, ok
13:32:41 ralphm Any particular agenda items?
13:32:46 nyco https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
13:32:59 nyco prios and executive?
13:33:06 nyco ongoing topics, I think
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13:33:22 Guus is there any more for us to do with 'prios' ?
13:33:29 jjrh has left
13:33:38 Guus (I have no other agenda items)
13:33:43 MattJ I have none either
13:33:45 nyco we should agree? reach a consensus?
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13:34:00 ralphm 1. Priorities
13:34:22 ralphm Ok. So I think the order as nyco wrote it on trello can be improved
13:34:39 nyco yep, the card is too ra
13:34:44 nyco raw
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13:34:53 ralphm As I said last week, I think the item listed as 2. Organisation is our primary priority
13:35:08 ralphm (as Board)
13:35:35 ralphm Because that's basically what any Board should do
13:35:42 nyco bureaucracy, funding: these are the keywords
13:35:42 MattJ I'd s/priority/responsibility/ I think for clarity
13:35:50 ralphm sure
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13:35:54 Guus unsure if we need to split hairs about which of these four topics needs to have highest priority. Can't we just word them nicely, and deliver them as "these are what we believe to be the most high-prio issues"?
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13:36:23 ralphm Ok, but then the list would be like this:
13:36:45 nyco Copy-paste: == Priorities == Developer/Operator Community (14) => sprints/hackathons Organisation (9) => bureaucracy, funding Protocol (9) => modernization Promotion (8) => usecases/showcases
13:37:03 nyco Developer/Operator Community (14) => sprints/hackathons => that's for software developers, not the XSF, right?
13:37:20 nyco Organisation (9) => bureaucracy, funding => that's for the XSF, especially the Board, correct?
13:37:32 nyco Protocol (9) => modernization => that's for the Council, ok?
13:37:42 nyco Promotion (8) => usecases/showcases => that's for SCAM, isn't it?
13:38:05 nyco so I guess we (the Board) need to discuss bureaucracy and funding
13:38:22 ralphm * Generic Board responsibilities. * Ensure our protocol standardization efforts through Council and Editors * Support community efforts related to XMPP * Support SCAM
13:38:41 Guus nyco, I think you're right - but I do interpret this as "the board should put emphasis on enabling these work teams to do (all of the above)."
13:38:54 MattJ nyco, I'd agree with that, noting that a number of things fall under the "developer/operator community" topic (e.g. enabling hackathons and other events through SCAM)
13:39:00 nyco for bureaucracy, I don't clearly understand the problem, thus I am not able to propose solutions
13:39:37 Guus I think we're agreeing a lot with each-other here
13:39:50 ralphm This is basically ensuring we have elections for members and board, council
13:40:01 ralphm liason with other standards bodies
13:40:23 ralphm and generally be organized as a corporation
13:40:28 nyco for funding, here is my thought, raw once again, sharing at early stage, please comment: some software projects need money, we (Board) can help them setup Patreon pages for example and though SCAM we can promote those campaigns, still respecting our "weak neutrality" (as I call it)
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13:41:41 nyco anyway, we should not contemplate the problem that has been revealed we should take some action, and think outcome doing "not perfect" is acceptable
13:41:55 ralphm I 'm not sure we should do Patreon or similar, unless we as a foundation need something developed, like a standards compliance testing suite.
13:42:02 nyco staying still is not wishable
13:42:15 nyco ah good point
13:42:28 nyco compliance suite could be funded by donations
13:42:35 nyco that could be under the responsibility of the XSF
13:42:51 nyco I was talking about software projects, which the XSF does not support directly
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13:43:08 ralphm I don't the XSF should be involved in helping, say, Prosody acquire funds.
13:43:08 Guus we can facilitate a knowledge-base that explains how, as an xmpp project, one could acquire funding.
13:43:21 nyco that
13:43:31 nyco what to do, what to expect
13:43:32 ralphm sure, that's ok
13:43:40 nyco we can collect people's experience
13:43:42 nyco s
13:43:45 ralphm If somebody wants to pick that up
13:43:59 Guus well, we're drafting recommendations for the next board, right? 🙂
13:44:07 nyco well, I can start seomthing, come back to the Board, we decide if stop or continue...
13:44:14 ralphm But if we have to chose between efforts, we probably could do some work on our own funding
13:44:24 ralphm choose
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13:44:35 nyco we would not choose, just tell them how others do
13:44:48 Guus yes - I neglected following up with Peter for to long on that - apologies.
13:45:02 nyco so, getting back to our own funding: what do we need money for?
13:45:29 ralphm I mean that we have limited time, as Board, and I think our own continued funding should have priority
13:45:42 MattJ There's what we use money for now, and there's what we could do with a reliable source of funds
13:45:45 ralphm Well, if we want to continue having things like Summits, those cost money
13:45:50 nyco well, first the sponsoring, right?
13:45:58 Guus we have some recurring costs, but I think having funds to spend could enable us to do more than what we currently do.
13:46:06 ralphm and they way we've dealt with sponsoring in the past has been less than optimal
13:46:13 ralphm Guus: this
13:46:24 nyco a source of fund can be temporary, like a crowdfunding campaign Patreon and the likes are more split across time
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13:46:34 nyco more predictible and repetitive, but lower amounts
13:48:01 nyco sponsoring less that optimal: why? what's the problem? I think I heard we have not been the best at following up, that's right?
13:49:29 MattJ Pretty much - to the point where we don't know who our current sponsors actually are
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13:50:03 nyco so, trying to summarize: we talked about funding but not bureaucracy in funding, we talked about sponsoring (repetitive, predictible, but need manpower) ask for more sponsoring, or better follow up? we could engage the process of developing the comp suite ?
13:50:04 MattJ and we have had pledges for sponsoring e.g. the Brussels dinner and not collected money from those sponsors for two years running (at least)
13:50:29 nyco argh
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13:51:11 ralphm "bureaucrazy" doesn't necessarily need a plan right now, other than maybe figuring out if we want to continue having an Executive Director, and what role they should have.
13:51:31 ralphm But indeed, we probably need a single person handing all things around sponsoring
13:51:33 nyco that's 2. in our agenda today?
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13:51:57 Guus Doorbell, afk
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13:52:29 ralphm nyco: time permitting
13:52:46 nyco ok, chicken and egg what if hire someone? an admin role, not like in sysadmin/devops, but admin like legal and money that way we could collect the real money, seriously, with proper tracking this way we could pay that person logic? ;-)
13:53:07 ralphm But to me the biggest question on preparing for FOSDEM/Summit in 2019 is: which one person will take that on *and* follow through on all the things.
13:53:31 nyco SCAM? not the Board?
13:53:31 MattJ nyco, I actually wouldn't be opposed to that idea
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13:54:14 MattJ nyco, SCAM is allocated a budget and spends it - it not directly involved in the sponsorship part
13:54:21 nyco yep
13:54:31 Guus back
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13:54:54 Guus and yes, that's for SCAM. And for board to follow up on with SCAM, if they don't act appropriately
13:55:08 nyco hummm, do we have an organizational chat of the XSF?
13:55:13 nyco sorry, out of context
13:55:19 Guus as the WT leader of SCAM, I expect to be scolded 🙂
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13:55:39 MattJ nyco, you mean like this MUC? :)
13:55:49 Guus (I'm currently moving house - planning to take up FOSDEM next week)
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13:56:16 nyco MattJ ;-)
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13:57:20 ralphm I'm ok with SCAM handling that, but then I want a single person in SCAM to be appointed for it. Of course the same problem of course exists for the generic sponsoring efforts of the XSF. If we say this is the Treasurers responsibility, then we need to make sure that we clean up the site and follow up on acquiring new sponsors with him.
13:57:32 nyco hiring someone could help, lot of work though crowdfunding could help as well, but what for?
13:58:02 Guus Ralph, we'll pick someone from within SCAM to take point.
13:58:17 ralphm Guus: 💪
13:58:36 Guus as for Treasurer: I'd be ok with that, providing that the Treasurer is.
13:58:45 nyco it is all getting back to this: the XSF is in survival mode we (individuals) do not invest and commit enough time&work to maintain it properly
13:58:47 Guus maybe plan a sit-down with Peter?
13:59:06 ralphm Guus: let's do that. You, Peter, and me?
13:59:27 Guus ralphm: works for me, I'm open for other to attend, but maybe not swamp him?
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13:59:48 Guus nyco: I don't quite agree with 'survival' mode - there's more potential, but I think we're not doing _that_ bad.
13:59:53 ralphm nyco: I don't think I agree with that statement. I think the core of what we need to do – be a standards org – is going well.
14:00:37 nyco not being updated regarding sponsoring pretty much sucks... sorry for the vocab
14:00:56 nyco it may be harsh, but it is a reality
14:01:06 Guus nyco, true, but still, we're processing XEPs.
14:01:14 Guus I agree that we could do _more_
14:01:18 nyco good, the Council does, not the Board
14:01:20 Guus but we're not "almost dead"
14:01:26 ralphm I think we all agree our sponsoring situation is not good.
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14:01:49 nyco the Board is not very commited, I have to say...
14:01:55 nyco the engagement is low
14:02:03 nyco I'm guility of it
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14:02:32 Guus This is a good time for me to point out that we're out of time for this week 😃 (sorry, but I'm pressed for time)
14:02:39 ralphm :-D
14:02:41 nyco you're right
14:02:48 MattJ :)
14:02:53 ralphm Guus: let's set this up then
14:02:56 nyco thx all!
14:03:02 ralphm 2. Date of Next
14:03:03 ralphm +1W
14:03:06 nyco +1
14:03:06 ralphm 3. Close
14:03:09 ralphm Thanks all!
14:03:14 nyco merci à tous ! ;-)
14:03:15 ralphm bangs gavel
14:03:25 Guus I will not be here next week
14:03:29 ralphm set the topic to XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
14:03:30 Dave Cridland has left
14:03:36 nyco huh... notes?
14:03:38 Guus I'm selling my house at that exact time.
14:03:44 Dave Cridland has left
14:03:55 nyco good luck! but... do not sell it in bitcoins
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14:04:13 nyco unless someone else does, I'll write the notes
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14:04:34 MattJ nyco, that would be much appreciated, thanks!
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14:06:02 Guus Thank you
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14:07:08 nyco hey, just started that: https://app.mindmup.com/map/new/1538057154012
14:07:16 nyco 1. can you see/read?
14:07:19 nyco 2. can you edit?
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14:08:41 Guus I just typed something in that button-like thingy?
14:09:09 nyco I did not see anything moving
14:09:12 Guus oh, but I have to sign up before I can save it?
14:09:14 nyco add a block, maybe?
14:09:19 nyco I have not signed up
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14:09:39 nyco https://movim.eu:5280/upload/1ab8cd5d50a081e2fdf8ce43dca3047f8bd49889/YL2s4N2wQ2wxkGfS9md802ngaKH7fZ6bOO5Whfcm/Capture_d_e_cran_2018-09-27_a__16.09.27.png
14:09:45 nyco in 2 min
14:09:56 Guus oh, no, I see an empty page with just one blue block.
14:10:08 nyco ok
14:10:14 nyco I'll find something lese
14:10:19 nyco I'll find something else
14:10:21 nyco thx
14:10:29 Guus np
14:10:40 Guus I've figured out why I missed your chats
14:10:45 Guus I got my contact list filtered on 'online'
14:11:02 Guus and you're going offline and online, which makes you pop up and under 🙂
14:11:22 nyco wat? I'm staying online with three concurrent clients
14:11:27 nyco is there flapping somewhere?
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14:11:35 Guus No, not now. That was earlier.
14:11:55 Guus at the begin of the meeting.
14:11:59 nyco :'(
14:12:02 Guus you showed as 'offline' for a moment
14:12:05 Guus anyway
14:12:07 Guus I got to run
14:12:11 nyco bye!
14:12:14 Guus bye
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