-
jonas’
ping
-
Maranda
pong
-
Ge0rG
peng
-
jonas’
björn?
-
Link Mauve
The 35c3 voucher system has started, did you get in touch with them to get some?
-
Ge0rG
Link Mauve: this should be for SCAM team, right?
-
Link Mauve
Ah, maybe.
-
pep.
Scam or not maybe somebody can send something, so we're not too late
-
jonas’
@SCAM: 35c3-tickets@cccv.de✎ -
jonas’
@SCAM: mailto:35c3-tickets@cccv.de ✏
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, Link Mauve, ^ I don’t konw if SCAM has a MUC or something. forward it to them.
-
MattJ
scam@muc.xmpp.org
-
jonas’
(something something too many tabs something)
-
MattJ
:)
-
jonas’
hah, relevant backlog in that muc
-
MattJ
Exactly
-
nyco
yep ;-)
-
nyco
who chairs? who minutes?
-
guusdk
Go for it
-
MattJ
I'll chair if someone else can minute
-
guusdk
I'll do afterwards
-
nyco
thx
-
MattJ
Ok
-
MattJ
0) Role call: nyco, guusdk and myself
-
MattJ
1) Topics for agenda
-
MattJ
Anyone have anything not on Trello?
-
guusdk
No
-
nyco
nope
-
MattJ
2) Decisions: board priorities
-
nyco
last time we talked prios, didn't have time to talk executive
-
nyco
oh ok
-
MattJ
Didn't we decide on this already?
-
nyco
according to the minutes, we did not decide (we were not meant to)
-
MattJ
Gah, browser with Trello and minutes just crashed, one moment
-
nyco
we agreed we would not take decisions for the next board
-
MattJ
Right
-
MattJ
So are we done with this for now?
-
nyco
that's my feeling
-
guusdk
Nyco, didn't you offer to draft a nice recommendation for next board?
-
nyco
thx
-
MattJ
Moving on...
-
guusdk
I'm not trying to make nyco donor, btw. Though he volunteered
-
guusdk
Donor/do it
-
nyco
that's fine, I'm happy to contribute this
-
MattJ
3) Commitment for the week (ha!) ahead: search for new ED
-
nyco
(which week? ;-) )
-
MattJ
I don't think we should be expecting Martin back before the end of the term
-
MattJ
and this was assigned to him
-
MattJ
Nope, we already have one
-
nyco
there is a subject with Peter on sponsoring as well, right?
-
nyco
modifying the bylaws need some work I guess, like validate the changes by a lawyer?
-
MattJ
guusdk, added to Trello
-
guusdk
Tx
-
MattJ
5) Discussion: Change board member tenure
-
MattJ
Did we come to some decision on this?
-
guusdk
I don't believe that there's consensus to change anything here.
-
guusdk
Leave as-is?
-
MattJ
I'll archive the card then
-
nyco
agree, I feel we don't want to change
-
MattJ
Ok, that's cleared up a few things in Trello
-
MattJ
We're left with our two long-running themes of the year (fundraising/financing, and ED replacement), and one new action item (call with Peter)
-
MattJ
6) AOB?
-
MattJ
I have none
-
guusdk
Board/council elections process was started by the Secretary
-
MattJ
Oh, wasn't aware of that
-
guusdk
Please find candidates and/or apply on wiki
-
MattJ
Shall do
-
nyco
https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2018
-
guusdk
See mail sent on October 1
-
nyco
@SCAM can/should we tweet that?
-
MattJ
Doesn't really fall under SCAM, does it? There's nothing meetup-related
-
guusdk
nyco: good idea
-
guusdk
But it should be tweeted nonetheless
-
MattJ
+1
-
nyco
oh commteam
-
MattJ
Yeah, sorry, I realised it was probably just a typo after I wrote my message :)
-
nyco
we also should tweet every call for membership
-
MattJ
Ok, I think we're done then
-
MattJ
7) Next meeting
-
MattJ
+1 week
-
guusdk
+1
-
nyco
+1
-
guusdk
Ok
-
MattJ
8) The End
-
MattJ
Thanks all
-
nyco
thx all!
-
guusdk
Thanks
-
MattJ
Aha
-
MattJ
I think I found what's up with xmpp.org
-
MattJ
Well, the XMPP service anyway
-
MattJ
Currently holds 1020 open fds, limit is 1024
-
Zash
It uses select???
-
Ge0rG
Le Sigh.
-
MattJ
ulimit
-
Zash
Oh
-
Ge0rG
https://issues.prosody.im/536
-
MattJ
Ah, fun
-
MattJ
The majority of open fds are UDP sockets "connected" to the DNS server
-
MattJ
which was down earlier in the week, so I guess that constitutes a bug
-
Zash
https://issues.prosody.im/1170 ?
-
MattJ
Except this server is many versions out of date, so probably just needs an upgrade
-
Ge0rG
I remember having a server silently running out of FDs. It sucks.
-
MattJ
Oh no, it's not out of date, apparently I upgraded it at some point
-
MattJ
Zash, so I guess you can take NeedInfo off that issue :)
-
Zash
Is this even 0.10.x?
-
MattJ
0.10.2
-
Zash
MattJ: That change isn't in 0.10.2
-
MattJ
Ah
-
MattJ
Ok, service should be restored for now
-
Ge0rG
did you throw in some more sockets?
-
jonas’
prosody should just re-exec itself when it runs out of sockets /s
-
Ge0rG
jonas’: message to all admins and reexec
-
Zash
Why
-
Zash
And how
-
Ge0rG
Zash: it will close all sockets.
-
flow
Ge0rG why not simply monitor the open fd externally and send an (XMPP) message?
-
flow
*open fd count
-
jonas’
Ge0rG, let me tell you about my botnet opening 65535 TCP connections to your prosody instance :>
-
jonas’
flow, "simply" and "monitor" and "prosody" in a single statement is daring
-
Zash
"fd count" is painful as well
-
flow
jonas’, I think it could be done prosody agnostic, i.e. not specific to a particular process binary, you just monitor if your process is running against the open fd limit
-
jonas’
flow, picking the right process to monitor isn’t easy either
-
Ge0rG
flow: feel free to PR against https://issues.prosody.im/536
-
MattJ
Ge0rG, PR for an external script?
-
MattJ
I'll repeat what's already said in the issue: there is no API for asking the OS how many fds you have open
-
MattJ
So file an issue for Linux
-
Zash
I haven't even seen anyhing in the epoll API that tells you how many FDs you are watching
-
Zash
Easy enough with select() since you have to manually add them for every call
-
jonas’
open /proc/self/fd, count number of entries?
-
Zash
But then you're limited to sizeof(fd_set) * (bits per byte)
-
Zash
jonas’: That's mentioned in a comment in the issue already
-
jonas’
sorry :)
-
Ge0rG
MattJ: the external script could be part of the OS-level packaging and tooling
-
Zash
File an issue for systemd
-
MattJ
Talking about epoll/etc. is besides the point... fds != connections
-
Ge0rG
isn't this all about fds only?
-
MattJ
You suggested select/epoll in comment 6
-
MattJ
and I pointed out what I just pointed out (fds != connections) in comment 7
-
Zash
All this has happened before, and all of it will happen again, and again, and again.
-
Zash
What jonas’ said is comment 8
-
MattJ
The only way to correctly implement this is an O(N) loop, run $frequently
-
Zash
Can you get the size of a directory in O(less than n) in Linux?
-
Zash
Or does that just move the O(n) elsewhere?
-
Ge0rG
MattJ: you are the one bringing up connections all the time.
-
Zash
Or are /proc directory entries too magical for that
-
Ge0rG
Zash: opening /proc/self/fd requires... a free fd
-
Zash
Dun dun DUN
-
Ge0rG
I wouldn't be surpsised if sending a message to admins would also require a free fd.
-
Ge0rG
or multiple ones.
-
Zash
Might, yes
-
Ge0rG
Can't you just detect EMFILE from any fd you open and trigger an error condition on that?
-
Ge0rG
BTW, this MUC is exceptionally laggy today.
-
Zash
Storage might need a FD to write to eg offline storage or archive
-
Zash
Don't we already?
-
Zash
Wow, that is laggy
-
Ge0rG
MattJ: did prosody run out of descriptors again?
-
Zash
But not now?
-
Zash
.
-
Zash
Apparently it is
-
Zash
17:00 now
-
Zash
25s lag
-
Zash
Catching up with something?
-
Ge0rG
xsf@muc.xmpp.org did not respond to ping after 10s: timeout
- Ge0rG shakes fist at poezio
-
jonas’
ping
-
jonas’
wfm
-
jonas’
very fast from here
-
Zash
.
-
Ge0rG
sometimes it's fast, and sometimes it lags. swap disk thrashing?
-
waqas
.
-
jonas’
fun :)
-
Zash
.
-
Ge0rG
. . , -
-
jonas’
fertig ist das mondgesich,.✎ -
jonas’
fertig ist das mondgesicht ✏
-
Zash
u wut m8?
-
MattJ
Everything seems fine to me
-
jonas’
maybe bad internet weather?
-
Ge0rG
do I need to add xmpp.org to my smokeping?
-
jonas’
do it
-
Ge0rG
all is looking well on the icmp front
-
Ge0rG
it must be a host latency issue.
-
MattJ
Ah, postgres 100% CPU, user: xmppoke
-
jonas’
nice
-
MattJ
.
-
MattJ
.
-
waqas
.
-
Zash
Is xmpp.net still broken?
-
Zash
Looks liket here are recent results that worked✎ -
Zash
Looks like there are recent results that worked ✏
-
MattJ
`docker nice`...
-
jonas’
nice
-
jonas’
(pun intended)
-
MattJ
It doesn't exist
-
MattJ
I wish it did
-
SamWhited
jonas’: re my question earlier, can you expand on your decision to move 0392 to HSLuv? You claim it has widespread library support, but the ones I've found are *really* terrible, and I think there was some value in using a standard color space. HSLuv may look nice, but it has no real applications in insdustry and isn't likely to be widely supported, so I'm skeptical of that claim
-
SamWhited
I'm not specifically for YCbCr to be clear, I don't care what colorspace is used it just seems like there's value in using a standardized one
-
SamWhited
not just some random persons personal project that's not used anywhere
-
jonas’
right
-
jonas’
so, what we did on top of YCbCr is essentially what HSLuv does on top of CIE XYZ, but worse
-
jonas’
so it’s a home-brew solution either way
-
jonas’
except that HSLuv gives better results
-
SamWhited
I didn't remember you making changes to YCbCr, what did you do on top of it?
-
jonas’
the algorithm to determine CbCr based on the angle
-
jonas’
or rather, based on the 16 bit input extracted from the hash
-
SamWhited
That's just picking a color out of the space, that seems fine; you'll have to do that no matter what space you use
-
jonas’
that’s what HSLuv does on top of XYZ anyways
-
jonas’
but the results are much more uniform than what we had with YCbCr
-
SamWhited
Hmm, I didn't understand that; it's an entirely new colorspace as far as I could tell, maybe I need to go reread their definition of it
-
jonas’
http://www.hsluv.org/math/
-
jonas’
oh, it works on top of CIE LUV LCh, not XYZ
-
jonas’
not sure where I got the XYZ from
-
jonas’
it is really pretty much exactly what we did with YCbCr: use Hue as angle, cast a ray to the border, take value
-
SamWhited
Yah, that's not the same thing at all; it's a brand new color space, they've just defined it as a transformation of CIE LUV
-
SamWhited
You couldn't just pick a color from an eisting CIE LUV implementation, as far as I can tell from this
-
jonas’
so, old XEP-0392 was just an entirely new color space which can be defined as a transformation of YCbCr; that’s wordplay
-
SamWhited
I don't think that's true, these are two different things
-
SamWhited
If I had the set of all possible colors in YCbCr I could do you algorithm and get colors in that set (I think?)
-
jonas’
no
-
SamWhited
If I have the set of all colors in CIE LUV I can't do 0392 with that, I have to implement HSLuv first
-
jonas’
no wait, I don’t understand what you’re saying
-
SamWhited
I'm saying that if I have a CIELuv implementation I can't implement 0392 with that; it will be different colors than if I start from an HSLuv implementation.
-
SamWhited
And HSLuv isn't actually a standard that anyone recognizes, and contrary to your claim doesn't have very good library support as far as I can tell
-
jonas’
SamWhited, I didn’t review all the implementations in http://www.hsluv.org/implementations/ but at least the Python and Java ones seem to be fine
-
jonas’
the C one, too
-
SamWhited
I reviewed a few; they were mostly terrible, unidiomatic, and unmaintained.
-
SamWhited
They're examples, but not actually something I'd use in prod
-
SamWhited
And either way it seems like there's valule in using a widely recognized standard and not something where the only support will come from a single party
-
jonas’
maybe
-
jonas’
however, the results with YCbCr are not as nice as HSLuv
-
SamWhited
Maybe if you want those specific colors it would make sense to define 0392 in terms of CIE Luv which I think is widely standardsized and just include the math for going to HSLuv (and you could mention that if you have an HSLuv implementation you can just start from their)?
-
jonas’
that would make 0392 unnecessarily long
-
SamWhited
They look about he same to me, if anything I've gotten more gross mustard yellow since Conversations updated, but that's probably just bad luck
-
jonas’
the difference is in the uniformity of brightness
-
jonas’
lemme grab you a screenshot
-
SamWhited
Yah, the brightness uniformity is nice, but it doesn't outweigh the downside in my opinion; there has to be a standardized colorspace or subset of one that has uniform brightness?
-
jonas’
not really, unless you do exactly what HSLuv does
-
jonas’
maybe on top of something else
-
jonas’
but you end up using one of the photometric ones (XYZ, LUV, you name it), and do a solve() to determine the right color for a given hue and saturation
-
SamWhited
I dunno, personally if the only benefit is more uniform brightness that's nice, but doesn't make it worth using a colorspace that has a total of one implementation in a few languages and isn't actually used anywhere and that no one has any experience with
-
SamWhited
It doesn't seem like it would be that much more to describe how to construct this colorspace though, but maybe I'm being over optimistic, I need to look over the math and actually try to understand it
-
SamWhited
Since I'd have to do that to implement it anyways
-
jonas’
the golang implementation doesn’t look too bad to me, but I don’t know lots of go either way
-
SamWhited
It's bad
-
SamWhited
That one in particular is more or less unusably bad; there are standard interfaces for doing colors in go which it doesn't implement.
-
SamWhited
Also the code just isn't idiomatic
-
SamWhited
And is impossible to follow or reason about because of the way they've defined it as transformations through multiple other colorspaces
-
jonas’
color spaces are all a mess, unless you go to the photometric ones
-
jonas’
and converting the good photometric ones (CIE LUV in this case) to one you can use to display something on a computer is where you get the mess you save by doing stuff in photometrics
-
SamWhited
I get that that's a pain, but it still seems worth using an actual standard
-
SamWhited
Even if it doesn't look as great; YCbCr seemed fine to me personally
-
SamWhited
Actually, specifically looking at Go right now (I'd like to implement this in Go and Rust) I can't find a CIELUV implementation either, which suprises me
-
jonas’
I’m not surprised.
-
SamWhited
I guess that one's not all that widely used, even if it has been standardized for a while
-
SamWhited
So maybe starting from that wouldn't help, I haven't looked at other languages yet though