XSF Discussion - 2018-11-01

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  245. ralphm Tobias: I was looking at XEP-0385 (Stateless Inline Media Sharing). Have you considered sending multiple media files at once? Would it be supported by adding additional <file/> elements?
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  257. dwd WOuldn't that be multiple <media-sharing/> elements? Or maybe even references depending.
  258. Tobias Multiple messages, multiple media-sharing or multiple file
  259. Tobias That probably needs to be specified
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  264. Tobias But inside a single message would probably be best. Multiple messages already works
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  288. ralphm Sure, I'd prefer a single message in my use case
  289. Ge0rG I'd prefer a single message to carry multiple 0184 delivery receipts, but that's not what the XEP allows...
  290. ralphm I'm a bit surprised also by the use of XEP-0372 References here. In my thinking, References was meant to annotate a previous message. This seems to leave off the uri attribute to refer to the current one. I think that use case has not been properly defined.
  291. ralphm In fact, in my use case, there wouldn't necessarily be a part of the text to be reference.
  292. ralphm d
  293. ralphm More like the 'add attachment' button in many messengers.
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  295. ralphm Ge0rG: maybe XEP-0333 is more appropriate for you?
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  297. Ge0rG ralphm: I want per message receipts, but with a more efficient delivery
  298. ralphm I'm not sure if I can see the use case, but yeah, then that doesn't help
  299. ralphm Anyway, I was really looking at Tobias' spec only right now.
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  302. Ge0rG The use case is after mam sync / fetching offline messages. You need to ack a bunch of incoming messages, and the respective payloads are just ids, wrapped into a bunch of boilerplate
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  359. dwd ralphm, No, references were always meant to be capable of referring to the current message. For hyperlinky stuff.
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  362. daniel > The use case is after mam sync / fetching offline messages. You need to ack a bunch of incoming messages, and the respective payloads are just ids, wrapped into a bunch of boilerplate Ge0rG: I think we either talked about this before or I independently had the thought of just bundling multiple receipts in a single message
  363. ralphm Ge0rG: but XEP-0333 just marks the last one, so that covers the use case
  364. jonas’ ralphm, no it doesn’t, because you can’t be sure that all messages between two markers actually
  365. jonas’ ralphm, no it doesn’t, because you can’t be sure that all messages between two markers actually arrived
  366. daniel However in reality at least the bandwidth overhead of multiple messages vs one would be negligible if we had proper compression
  367. daniel We should really revisit the compression xep
  368. daniel And make it secure ™
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  370. ralphm dwd: ah, I guess the references XEP needs to point this out then. Nevertheless, it doesn't seem useful for when you don't have a particular part of the message to reference, when sending media.
  371. Zash Someone Should™
  372. ralphm jonas’: arrived at the user or at his server?
  373. Zash What happens if the receiving users archive acks messages when they are saved into the archive?
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  380. jonas’ ralphm, both
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  383. ralphm Zash: right
  384. dedekin > would be negligible if we had proper compression You could start with https://github.com/mgp25/Chat-API/wiki/FunXMPP-Protocol :-)
  385. Seve And call it WhatshAPPening
  386. jonas’ looks like they invented a stripped-down version of EXI
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  393. Zash jonas’: almost
  394. jonas’ I expect EXI to be more useful than generic compression in the general XMPP case actually
  395. pep. Without the negotiation bits? ("these are the namespaces I'll be using")
  396. Zash EXI is more involved tho
  397. pep. (Re almost exi)
  398. jonas’ Zash, that’s true
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  400. daniel > I expect EXI to be more useful than generic compression in the general XMPP case actually But arguably a lot harder to implement
  401. jonas’ probably
  402. Zash "FunXMPP" is closer to a fixed compression dictionary IIRC
  403. daniel Especially since the xep is apparently garbage
  404. jonas’ if there are no ready-to-use libs
  405. jonas’ Zash, yes, which is also what EXI does
  406. fippo hah. This one is much better than exi for chat! http://cvs.schmorp.de/Net-Knuddels/Net/Knuddels/Dictionary.pm?revision=1.5&view=markup
  407. Zash jonas’: EXI generates those from schemas tho
  408. jonas’ Zash, true
  409. fippo why compress protocol when you can compress the chat message content
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  411. Zash fippo: wut
  412. jonas’ I sense sarcasm
  413. daniel But fwiw I'd love to play with exi if I can get a server dev on board
  414. Zash jonas’: sure hope so, since that's the opposite of what we want here
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  416. fippo zash: this module is not a joke even. i think the knuddels stuff came up in the late 90s, mostly in germany. they were alive until a recent databreach
  417. jonas’ is there a lua-exi?
  418. Zash jonas’: nope
  419. jonas’ pity
  420. Zash And EXI seems complex enough that I'd rather use a library than NIH it
  421. jonas’ yes please
  422. jonas’ is there even any floss implementation of EXI?
  423. pep. Deprecate it! It's too complex you'll never get it right! /s
  424. jonas’ that libexi is "status: planning" on sourceforge, whatever that means
  425. Zash Thanks Firefox, I really did mean to go to http://EXIstentialcomics.com/
  426. daniel jonas’: a Java one
  427. daniel But that's literally the only one I believe
  428. Zash http://exip.sourceforge.net/ ?
  429. Kev daniel: I'm interested in EXI, actually, but no clue where we'd start to get something sensible (and no cycles to do anything immediately).
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  431. daniel Compression - be it exi or an improved compression xep - would make for a good summit topic
  432. SamWhited That's a good idea
  433. Guus wasn't Arc Riley working on EXI stuff?
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  435. daniel Guus: yes. He was the one who told us that the xep is garbage
  436. daniel (probably not his exact words)
  437. Guus Where's he off to anyways? Haven't seen him in ages.
  438. jonas’ vanished after last year’s board elections essentially
  439. jonas’ hope they’re alright…
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  447. Zash You could define a zlib-safe that requires flushing between every stanza (or when to/from changes in some way)
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  452. dwd Zash, Am I right in thinking Prosody has built-in support for JWT authentication for BOSH/WebSocket connections?
  453. Zash dwd: What makes you think that?
  454. Zash What does that even mean?
  455. dwd Zash, I was under the impression that Jitsi used something like that.
  456. dwd Zash, Of course, I could so easily be wrong.
  457. daniel Sounds like an reasonable approach to 'fixing' that xep
  458. Guus dwd: Jitsi might have added custom code (it did so for a number of things, iirc)
  459. dwd Seems to have, indeed.
  460. Guus dwd: https://github.com/jitsi/lib-jitsi-meet/blob/master/doc/tokens.md
  461. Guus that's likely it
  462. dwd Yeah, I just found that myself.
  463. ralphm Isn't the issue with compression and encryption that a MiM can inject bits of information in messages going to an entity that are sure to be returned, to learn about the dictionary?
  464. Zash ralphm: Yes, like iq id attributes.
  465. dwd ralphm, Sorta. Compression oracles work by inserting known plaintext into a compression stream. So in our case, the compression stream is the entire session, so an attacker just sends messages to see if they can guess what's been sent before.
  466. Zash ralphm: If you flush between stanzas, that goes away
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  468. dwd ralphm, But an attacker has to be able to see the compressed/encrypted stream, to count octets. I've generally considered this quite a hard attack.
  469. ralphm like on a mobile device?
  470. Zash You usually need a *lot* of requests to get actual secrets out
  471. ralphm ok, I had no idea how practicle an attack like this is
  472. jonas’ https://blog.thijsalkema.de/blog/2014/08/07/https-attacks-and-xmpp-2-crime-and-breach/
  473. ralphm also, I'm particular curious about server-to-server connections in this regard
  474. Zash ralphm: https://blog.thijsalkema.de/blog/2014/08/07/https-attacks-and-xmpp-2-crime-and-breach/
  475. Zash jonas’: ha
  476. dwd ralphm, By which I mean, if an attacker has got to the point that they've got full access to your network traffic *and* is willing to expose themselves by sending traffic over tyour XMPP session as well, they're getting pretty desperate.
  477. jonas’ ninja’d
  478. ralphm I know that document, but sure
  479. jonas’ dwd, sending traffic to ones XMPP session is not that hard using a botnet. I get a lot of unsolicited traffic all day.
  480. jonas’ that’s not *that* suspicious anymore
  481. dwd jonas’, Sure, but the attacker *also* has to have visibility over your TCP sessions.
  482. jonas’ that’s true
  483. Zash But are the amounts of traffict required to do an actual attack small enough to evade admins being annoyed by the bandwidth usage?
  484. jonas’ I wouldn’t count on admins thwarting an attack
  485. dwd Zash, Maybe. Depends what they're trying to discover. It'd be relatively simple to find out, for example, if you were in this MUC by sending you traffic including the room's jid. But then, it's far easier to just just the MUC and look...
  486. dwd Zash, Maybe. Depends what they're trying to discover. It'd be relatively simple to find out, for example, if you were in this MUC by sending you traffic including the room's jid. But then, it's far easier to just join the MUC and look...
  487. Zash Another way to fix this is to have a fixed dictionary
  488. dwd Zash, That's not how zlib works.
  489. Zash dwd: There are other compression libraries
  490. Zash dwd: And you can sorta fake it by feeding it a dictionary before every ... chunk .. somehow.
  491. dwd Zash, Sure. But then you're only able to compress, say, the XML. So you'd be into EXI territory.
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  493. Zash dwd: Picking say zstandard and training a dictionary on some XMPP data ought to be a lot easier to do than implementing all of EXI
  494. dwd Zash, Better solution of course is to use a constant-bandwidth transmission medium. :-)
  495. SamWhited Not necessarily, the spec could say that the dictionary must contain "@yourserver.com" or similar (assuming we want to target large rosters and assume that most people will be using the same server as their friends)
  496. Kev dwd: So padding all stanzas to the 1GB mark?
  497. SamWhited But I doubt a fixed dictionary is actually practical; interesting to think about though.
  498. Zash Kev: 10MB and you have a deal
  499. dwd Kev, No, just transmitting at a constant rate, and including padding.
  500. dwd Kev, It works quite well on radios. :-)
  501. Zash Whitespace flood instead of ping?
  502. jonas’ like ssh does for keystrokes? :)
  503. Zash jonas’: REAL TIME TEXT?
  504. jonas’ !!
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  507. Zash SamWhited: Could do something where the client downloads and caches a dictionary on connect. Then it can be tuned to the server and stuff. More complexity tho and closer to EXI
  508. Zash (Can you tell that I just found `zstd --train ...` ?)
  509. SamWhited ooh, yah, that's interesting. It would be fun to think more about what sort of policies the server could create that way
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  511. jonas’ Zash, interesting
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  513. SamWhited I say "policies", but I guess you don't have to target anything if you do that. Just train it on lots of streams and see what the most common stuff is.
  514. Ge0rG And you'll end up leaking private data in your dictionaries.
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  516. Zash Trade-offs
  517. SamWhited So exclude bits of the stream you don't want it to see
  518. SamWhited Start training after stream negotiation, drop IDs, messages probably won't matter because if a phrase is reused enough it's probably not private, etc.
  519. Zash If we knew which bits that was, we could do nice compression.
  520. Zash ... and that's basically what FunXMPP is
  521. SamWhited Fair
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  523. Zash Pre-defined dictionary
  524. Zash With common things like "<message " and such
  525. jonas’ Zash, except with zstd, there would be a standard-ish way to translate that dictionary
  526. jonas’ and we wouldn’t be limited to keep XML metacharacters in place
  527. jonas’ for example, 'from="' could be one token in the dict
  528. Zash all known xmlns="..." etc
  529. jonas’ yupp
  530. ralphm Hate to interrupt, but…
  531. ralphm set the topic to XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  532. thorsten has joined
  533. ralphm bangs gavel
  534. jonas’ '<a xmlns="urn:xmpp:sm:2" h="' :-)
  535. nyco here
  536. jonas’ shuts up now
  537. ralphm 0. Welcome and Agenda
  538. nyco quorum?
  539. ralphm MattJ sent regrets
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  542. ralphm Guus?
  543. Guus I"m here
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  546. ralphm Yay
  547. Guus (no agenda items from me)
  548. ralphm I have Elections and FOSDEM
  549. lorddavidiii has left
  550. nyco and ED?
  551. ralphm nyco?
  552. ralphm Ok
  553. ralphm 1. FOSDEM
  554. nyco FOSDEM/Summit is for SCAM?
  555. ralphm We've requested a stand again.
  556. ralphm (just informative)
  557. nyco oh great
  558. nyco thx a lot
  559. Guus (what nyco said)
  560. ralphm Also, we've secured the location for the Summit
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  563. Guus I intend to make reservations for the annual dinner later this week
  564. lorddavidiii has joined
  565. ralphm We now need to start really inviting people to come and look at hotel deals
  566. Guus also, I'm assuming that last years hotel arrangements were ok? I'll redo those too, then
  567. ralphm nods
  568. ralphm That's it for me on this.
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  571. Guus one thing
  572. Guus now that you raised the topic
  573. Guus last year, we, as in the XSF, invited three people to summit and fosdem, sponsoring them. I dubbed them 'young potentials', I think.
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  577. Guus do we want to do something like that again this year
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  582. Guus and if so, who? Last year, we extended an invitation to gsoc students. We did not participate in gsoc this year.
  583. nyco what was the outcome of this?
  584. Guus We had two students attend, iirc
  585. nyco how much were we attractive?
  586. Guus both of them are still active in the ignite realtime community
  587. j.r has left
  588. Guus at least one of them mentioned that he'll be going to FOSDEM again this year.
  589. nyco so we might wanna do it again, I'd go for it...
  590. Guus I kind of like the concept of doing such sponsoring, but I can't immediately identify candidates for this iteration.
  591. Guus Do you have suggestions for candidates?
  592. ralphm Let the records reflect that suggestions are welcome.
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  594. ralphm Let's put it back on next weeks agenda
  595. Guus k
  596. ralphm 2. Elections
  597. ralphm With 3 days left, the list is wanting
  598. Guus we're at 4 candidates for board, 3 for council. All sitting candidates, I think
  599. ralphm Indeed
  600. Kev Sorry, lagging here, but from the peanut gallery, did any of the young hopefuls remain active in the standards community, or just for a particular project?
  601. Kev We've moved on, nevermind. As you were.
  602. ralphm Kev: Guus can still answer that one.
  603. Guus Kev: one is still active, afaik.
  604. ralphm Should we be worried about Council specifically? Three people is really meager
  605. Guus Paul / Vanitas
  606. Kev It's only two, actually, with one intending to apply but hasn't yet.
  607. Kev I was going to take a year off, but I'll throw my hat into the ring again now.
  608. ralphm Kev: well, if you mean: there page isn't actually there yet, we then also only have 2 for Board. *shame*
  609. Guus I wonder if there are people that are inclined to run, but are hold back for some reason
  610. ralphm Shall I sent another reminder?
  611. nyco yes, please, I think
  612. ralphm Ok.
  613. Guus Well, Alex just did one?
  614. Guus shrugs
  615. ralphm Last Friday, yes.
  616. nyco today is good, because it's Thu, and still a week day
  617. ralphm Right
  618. ralphm 3. Executive Director
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  620. Kev Another Council application in.
  621. Guus I think the relevant people now know that we have an election. I don't think it's a matter of pointing that out. Maybe we can persuade them to actually run, in some way though.
  622. nyco reminder at -48h, -24h, 12h, 6h, 1h, 30 min... 😉
  623. ralphm We haven't had one since Peter resigned this post. There's been question on needing one, and to be honest, maybe we don't.
  624. Guus Thanks Kev
  625. Guus Ralph, we briefly discussed this last week. I offered to take over from Martin, in doing an inventory of tasks/responsibilities.
  626. Guus which I wanted to do after we actually meet with Peter, for this and financials, which is another 'todo' that's been outstanding for to long..
  627. ralphm Ok
  628. nyco if we don't have an ED, then do we need to modify the bylaws? or we just elect a ghost ED?
  629. Guus I think Peter stated that he intended to resign as soon as we had a replacement.
  630. Guus as he's not actually doing anything in the role currently, I prefer having this status-quo over undertaking the massive operation that is rewriting the bylaws.
  631. ralphm What I've also seen done is that the Chair of the Board is appointed in such role in the absense of a candidate.
  632. Guus but, we should move on this. We should have, ages ago.
  633. ralphm (like in the company I currently work at)
  634. nyco ah I like that the chair is ED as well
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  636. nyco *the idea*
  637. Guus ralphm, if that works with our bylaws (I doubt it, for reasons), we might want to wait until next board picks a new chair then.
  638. ralphm Right, I'm not sure myself, it is just something that popped up.
  639. Guus worth considering, nonetheless.
  640. ralphm I think the ED is appointed by the Board, so I don't think it conflicts, but I'm happy to hear thoughts from the floor on this, before actually suggesting we do this.
  641. Kev ED being on Board would seem inappropriate to me, even if it's allowed.
  642. Kev Given the ED is used to break deadlocks in the Board.
  643. Guus "If the Board consists of an even number of Directors, the Executive Director of the Corporation shall be empowered to cast a tie-breaking vote (...)" complicates matters.
  644. Guus (what he said)
  645. ralphm Kev: indeed.
  646. ralphm The issue is that a) I haven't seen this been used in this corporation, b) I have no real other suggestions.
  647. ralphm But I'm happy to discuss with Guus and Peter.
  648. Guus Let's move on for now
  649. Guus *tap*tap* is this thing still on?
  650. Kev Everyone moved on.
  651. Guus ralphm usually swings his mighty hammer before he does. 🙂
  652. ralphm 4. EOB?
  653. ralphm AOB?
  654. Guus ennie, how nice and Dutch of you 😛
  655. Guus now.
  656. Guus no*
  657. ralphm 5. Date of Next
  658. ralphm +1W
  659. ralphm 6. Close
  660. ralphm Thanks all!
  661. ralphm bangs gavel
  662. ralphm set the topic to XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings
  663. Guus thanks!
  664. nyco thx everyone!
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  669. ralphm unmutes jonas’
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  671. j.r ralphm: what was wrong with him/her?
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  674. Guus Nothing, but jonas’ applied self-mute-ation earlier.
  675. Guus (which might or might not have been a ploy to get out and play)
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  700. ralphm j.r: there was a discussion going just when I interrupted to have our Board meeting, so he said he would go silent
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  822. Seve Still missing an applicant for Board?
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  825. guusdk Seve: we can always use more
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  827. SamWhited Seve: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2018
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  863. flow "Zash> jonas’: EXI generates those from schemas tho" not necessarily. i was told that it would perform also well without schemas, although I wonder if it would suffer from the same side channel based attacks as zlib compression
  864. flow "Kev> Sorry, lagging here, but from the peanut gallery, did any of the young hopefuls remain active in the standards community," I'd say vanitasvitae is active, he wrote a mail to standards@ not to long ago, but go no reply/response back, so I'd say the standards community is the entity being inactive here ;)
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  915. jonas’ some numbers on the stream compression ratio (numbers are "bytes saved" in percent from the perspective of the client; i.e. tx == from client to server, rx == from server to client): aioxmpp test suite, sync_flush only (XEP-0138 as written): 40% rx, 20% tx aioxmpp test suite, full_flush after each stanza: 25% rx, 20% tx JabberCat startup (lots of mucs, lots of avatars), full flush after each stanza: 25% rx, 12% tx sync vs. full is executed on both sides (client and server)
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  921. jonas’ some numbers on the stream compression ratio (numbers are "bytes saved" in percent from the perspective of the client; i.e. tx == from client to server, rx == from server to client): aioxmpp test suite, sync_flush only (XEP-0138 as written): 40% rx, 20% tx aioxmpp test suite, full_flush after each stanza: 25% rx, 20% tx JabberCat startup (lots of mucs, lots of avatars), full flush after each stanza: 25% rx, 12% tx JabberCat startup (lots of mucs, lots of avatars), sync flush: 36% rx, 12% tx sync vs. full is executed on both sides (client and server)
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  923. jonas’ these are to be taken with a grain of salt due to the rather narrow use-cases
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