XSF Discussion - 2018-11-04

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  143. jonas’ so I’m thinking about the case where SM resumption fails, but the server gives me an ``h`` value in the <failed/> stanza (as allowed in XEP-0198).
  144. jonas’ I’m not sure what to do with this information, as a library.
  145. jonas’ I can of course mark all unacked stanzas covered by the h value as acked
  146. jonas’ that probably makes sense unconditionally
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  148. jonas’ does it also make sense to automatically re-send stanzas which have not been acked?
  149. jonas’ I tend to "no, because we don’t know what happened in the meantime and the application should re-sync state and re-send whatever it wants to re-send"
  150. jonas’ i.e. treat the stanzas as "lost" and attach a clear error to their tracking handle.
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  157. lovetox hm that would be rather bad in my opinion
  158. lovetox imagine a mobile use case, where the SM timeout is 5 minutes
  159. jonas’ what would be "bad"?
  160. lovetox so all messages i send after 5 minutes when im currently offline, get a error
  161. lovetox and i have to retype them?
  162. jonas’ of course not
  163. jonas’ your client would have a resend button
  164. jonas’ or may even resend them automatically
  165. jonas’ question is, what should the *library* do
  166. lovetox if you think there is a case where a client does not want to resend them you have to implement this option
  167. jonas’ I don’t think that resending by default is the safe way
  168. lovetox whats unsafe?
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  170. jonas’ (note: not insecure, but unsafe)
  171. jonas’ for example, a presence stanza sent to a MUC
  172. jonas’ which changes your nickname
  173. jonas’ no, bad example, you’d await an ack for htat
  174. jonas’ but you get the idea: state was lost, and stanzas were queued under assumption of state which was lost.
  175. jonas’ I think re-sending those stanzas under a different state isn’t safe
  176. lovetox does the lib hold the stanzas or the client?
  177. jonas’ the lib
  178. jonas’ it has the outbound queue where unacked stanzas are kept until they are acked
  179. lovetox then you provide the stanzas, and he can sort stuff out he doesnt want to be resent?
  180. jonas’ that’s kinda what happens when I mark them as failed
  181. lovetox as a client dev, i would disable all functionality in the client except sending messages
  182. lovetox to circumvent any complicated problems
  183. lovetox the most important thing is sending a message
  184. lovetox everything else, like changing a nick or stuff like that, can wait until the user is online
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  186. jonas’ > as a client dev, i would disable all functionality in the client except sending messages
  187. jonas’ that statement is confusing
  188. lovetox i mean message from the standpoint of the user
  189. lovetox not from the protocol
  190. jonas’ you mean while offline?
  191. lovetox yes
  192. jonas’ right
  193. jonas’ but you don’t know immediately that you’re "offline"
  194. lovetox dont i? gajim seem to know it pretty sson
  195. lovetox dont i? gajim seem to know it pretty soon
  196. lovetox usually after the first stanza
  197. jonas’ depends on the failure mode
  198. jonas’ right, and that first stanza could be whatever action the user triggered
  199. jonas’ also, I’m not sure that blocking most of the UI on intermittend network failures is a good thing
  200. lovetox Gajim blocks all UI, you cant even write messages ^^
  201. jonas’ meh
  202. lovetox i agree its not good
  203. lovetox but it needs a lot of work to cache all message, make good ui for it, so the user sees whats sent and what not etc
  204. lovetox and then you still have to think alot about the things you just thinign now
  205. jonas’ indeed
  206. lovetox have to go, see you later
  207. jonas’ gl
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  268. flow jonas’, smack das also resend unacked stanzas on resumption FWIW
  269. jonas’ flow, on failed resumption?
  270. jonas’ note that this is all about failed resumption.
  271. flow yes, alswas
  272. flow IIRC
  273. jonas’ huhm.
  274. flow I see the issues you mentioned, but one has to weight it against the advantages
  275. jonas’ I think this conflicts with the state resync which aioxmpp (i think correctly) does after a failed resumption too much to do this by default
  276. jonas’ although it could be interesting to auto-resend stanzas after everything else has reported that state has been synced (e.g. MUCs rejoined)
  277. jonas’ but that would give things even more time to diverge unknowingly…
  278. flow hmm, also sounds like to much complexity for a minor/very rare/(non existent?) issue
  279. jonas’ yeah, I also don’t think this is a good idea
  280. jonas’ I think I’ll go the route of: resumption failed? -> mark acked stanzas as acked, mark unacked stanzas as failed and let the application/services deal with it
  281. jonas’ because that’s the only way I can provide clear guarantees to the using code
  282. jonas’ and aioxmpp is all about clear guarantees
  283. flow now I wonder what the code really does on failed resumption, let me check
  284. flow yeah, smack does simply resend in every case
  285. jonas’ ok
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  287. jonas’ I’ll go with "make unacked stanzas fail"
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  289. jonas’ this makes "failed resumption without @h" just a special case of "failed resumption with @h", which is conceptually very nice.
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  291. jonas’ and provides consistency.
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  311. Ge0rG jonas’ [12:10]: > I’ll go with "make unacked stanzas fail" That's a good approach. In yaxim, I'm re-sending all messages that are pending, after a reconnect. But obviously only proper messages
  312. flow Ge0rG, so no presences? how do you prevent lost presence updates?
  313. flow by remembering the last presence and resend it on reconnection/failed resumption?
  314. Ge0rG flow: when resumption fails, you need to redo all presence anyway
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  316. Ge0rG flow: I'm sending presence from the client preferences on connect
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  318. flow ok, nice idea, so on failed resumption you filter messages stanzas out of the list of pending stanzas and only send those
  319. flow that could work
  320. flow and on successfull resumption one could remove all but the last self-presence stanza, although that optimization probably won't give you much in most cases
  321. jonas’ on successful resumption, you don’t need to do anything
  322. flow you don't need do, right
  323. jonas’ ahh, I see, you want to CSI-style collapse multiple queued outbound stanzas
  324. flow yeah, just some premature micro optimization that nobody should do client side :D
  325. jonas’ heh
  326. flow bbl
  327. jonas’ gl
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  343. Ge0rG The issue with that is that you need to fix the counters. There is a big chance to f* it up.
  344. jonas’ you don’t need to fix counters for stanzas which haven’t been sent to the server yet (only queued)
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  346. jonas’ you don’t need to fix counters for stanzas which haven’t been acked by the server yet (only queued / sent without ack)
  347. jonas’ you don’t need to fix counters for stanzas of which the server said it didn’t receive them upon resumption
  348. Seve So I sent my application for Board. Please wish me lucky stanzas!
  349. jonas’ \o/
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  351. jonas’ so we’ll at least have a competition for board this year...
  352. jonas’ Link Mauve, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/index.php?title=Emmanuel_Gil_Peyrot_for_Council_2018&action=edit&redlink=1
  353. Seve Very healthy indeed!
  354. jonas’ well, maybe. ralphm and arc still need to do their applications.
  355. jonas’ Seve, sounds great :)
  356. Seve By the way, last time I think I also had the same problem. Not sure if it was me or some kind of cache. My application link still appears in red colour. Do you remember what was it, jonas’? I feel you were also in the discussion last time I mentioned that.
  357. jonas’ yes, that’s some caching
  358. jonas’ I think there’s a magic thing you can say to mediawiki to purge the caches, or you just wait
  359. jonas’ there we go
  360. jonas’ append ?action=purge to the URL
  361. Seve Woah, lovely! Saving that for next time, thanks, jonas’!
  362. jonas’ Even though I’m sure that Alex will click the links to be sure that there really is no application before removing candidates when the application period closes :)
  363. jonas’ (when clicking the link, you get shown the actual existing page, not the "no page here" page)
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  411. jonas’ hm
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  413. ralphm Yes , I do. Haven't copy/pasted yet
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  424. jonas’ https://github.com/horazont/aioxmpp/pull/254/commits/f014831357cb7804c0ba6a5b45ebc65f62064bcf#diff-46a421af09863be52f28a8bb03d339d1R34 this is what I went for
  425. jonas’ (regarding the stream management discussion from earlier)
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  435. vanitasvitae ralphm, can you replace my old blog (https://blogs.fsfe.org/vanitasvitae/category/xmpp/feed/) on the planet with my new blog (https://blog.jabberhead.tk/category/xmpp/feed) ?
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