XSF Discussion - 2018-11-04

  1. j.r has joined

  2. alexis has left

  3. j.r has joined

  4. mrdoctorwho has left

  5. mrdoctorwho has joined

  6. alexis has joined

  7. !xsf_martin has joined

  8. MattJ has joined

  9. j.r has joined

  10. j.r has joined

  11. j.r has left

  12. j.r has joined

  13. UsL has left

  14. UsL has joined

  15. alexis has left

  16. alexis has joined

  17. Tobias has left

  18. Tobias has joined

  19. j.r has joined

  20. alexis has left

  21. j.r has joined

  22. alexis has joined

  23. alexis has joined

  24. Tobias has left

  25. Tobias has joined

  26. alexis has left

  27. SamWhited has left

  28. SamWhited has joined

  29. alexis has joined

  30. j.r has joined

  31. j.r has joined

  32. alexis has left

  33. Zash has left

  34. jjrh has left

  35. jjrh has joined

  36. lorddavidiii has left

  37. Zash has left

  38. lorddavidiii has joined

  39. alexis has joined

  40. alexis has left

  41. Zash has left

  42. alacer has joined

  43. vaulor has joined

  44. lorddavidiii has left

  45. SamWhited has left

  46. Tobias has joined

  47. alacer has left

  48. lorddavidiii has joined

  49. j.r has joined

  50. j.r has joined

  51. alexis has joined

  52. alexis has left

  53. j.r has left

  54. j.r has joined

  55. lorddavidiii has left

  56. Tobias has joined

  57. alexis has joined

  58. Tobias has left

  59. Tobias has joined

  60. alacer has joined

  61. moparisthebest has joined

  62. Tobias has joined

  63. Maranda has joined

  64. alexis has left

  65. alexis has joined

  66. Tobias has joined

  67. alexis has left

  68. lorddavidiii has joined

  69. moparisthebest has joined

  70. Maranda has joined

  71. lorddavidiii has left

  72. alexis has joined

  73. lorddavidiii has joined

  74. alexis has joined

  75. alexis has left

  76. rion has left

  77. alacer has left

  78. Yagiza has joined

  79. waqas has joined

  80. alacer has joined

  81. alexis has joined

  82. alexis has left

  83. alexis has joined

  84. rion has joined

  85. rion has left

  86. rion has joined

  87. moparisthebest has joined

  88. alacer has left

  89. moparisthebest has joined

  90. alacer has joined

  91. dedekin has left

  92. alexis has left

  93. j.r has left

  94. js has joined

  95. js has left

  96. krauq has joined

  97. j.r has joined

  98. dedekin has joined

  99. alacer has left

  100. alexis has joined

  101. alacer has joined

  102. guusdk has left

  103. Guus has left

  104. Guus has joined

  105. guusdk has joined

  106. guusdk has left

  107. guusdk has joined

  108. Guus has left

  109. Guus has joined

  110. alexis has left

  111. alacer has left

  112. Guus has left

  113. krauq has left

  114. waqas has left

  115. Yagiza has left

  116. l has joined

  117. ta has joined

  118. alexis has joined

  119. alexis has left

  120. l has left

  121. l has joined

  122. Yagiza has joined

  123. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  124. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  125. !xsf_martin has joined

  126. Yagiza has left

  127. Yagiza has joined

  128. alexis has joined

  129. rion has left

  130. Maranda has joined

  131. dedekin has left

  132. Nekit has joined

  133. !xsf_martin has left

  134. !xsf_martin has joined

  135. dedekin has joined

  136. j.r has joined

  137. dedekin has left

  138. j.r has joined

  139. Nekit has left

  140. Nekit has joined

  141. rion has left

  142. dedekin has joined

  143. jonas’

    so I’m thinking about the case where SM resumption fails, but the server gives me an ``h`` value in the <failed/> stanza (as allowed in XEP-0198).

  144. jonas’

    I’m not sure what to do with this information, as a library.

  145. jonas’

    I can of course mark all unacked stanzas covered by the h value as acked

  146. jonas’

    that probably makes sense unconditionally

  147. j.r has joined

  148. jonas’

    does it also make sense to automatically re-send stanzas which have not been acked?

  149. jonas’

    I tend to "no, because we don’t know what happened in the meantime and the application should re-sync state and re-send whatever it wants to re-send"

  150. jonas’

    i.e. treat the stanzas as "lost" and attach a clear error to their tracking handle.

  151. j.r has joined

  152. dedekin has left

  153. j.r has left

  154. j.r has joined

  155. !xsf_martin has left

  156. !xsf_martin has joined

  157. lovetox

    hm that would be rather bad in my opinion

  158. lovetox

    imagine a mobile use case, where the SM timeout is 5 minutes

  159. jonas’

    what would be "bad"?

  160. lovetox

    so all messages i send after 5 minutes when im currently offline, get a error

  161. lovetox

    and i have to retype them?

  162. jonas’

    of course not

  163. jonas’

    your client would have a resend button

  164. jonas’

    or may even resend them automatically

  165. jonas’

    question is, what should the *library* do

  166. lovetox

    if you think there is a case where a client does not want to resend them you have to implement this option

  167. jonas’

    I don’t think that resending by default is the safe way

  168. lovetox

    whats unsafe?

  169. ta has joined

  170. jonas’

    (note: not insecure, but unsafe)

  171. jonas’

    for example, a presence stanza sent to a MUC

  172. jonas’

    which changes your nickname

  173. jonas’

    no, bad example, you’d await an ack for htat

  174. jonas’

    but you get the idea: state was lost, and stanzas were queued under assumption of state which was lost.

  175. jonas’

    I think re-sending those stanzas under a different state isn’t safe

  176. lovetox

    does the lib hold the stanzas or the client?

  177. jonas’

    the lib

  178. jonas’

    it has the outbound queue where unacked stanzas are kept until they are acked

  179. lovetox

    then you provide the stanzas, and he can sort stuff out he doesnt want to be resent?

  180. jonas’

    that’s kinda what happens when I mark them as failed

  181. lovetox

    as a client dev, i would disable all functionality in the client except sending messages

  182. lovetox

    to circumvent any complicated problems

  183. lovetox

    the most important thing is sending a message

  184. lovetox

    everything else, like changing a nick or stuff like that, can wait until the user is online

  185. alacer has joined

  186. jonas’

    > as a client dev, i would disable all functionality in the client except sending messages

  187. jonas’

    that statement is confusing

  188. lovetox

    i mean message from the standpoint of the user

  189. lovetox

    not from the protocol

  190. jonas’

    you mean while offline?

  191. lovetox


  192. jonas’


  193. jonas’

    but you don’t know immediately that you’re "offline"

  194. lovetox

    dont i? gajim seem to know it pretty sson

  195. lovetox

    dont i? gajim seem to know it pretty soon

  196. lovetox

    usually after the first stanza

  197. jonas’

    depends on the failure mode

  198. jonas’

    right, and that first stanza could be whatever action the user triggered

  199. jonas’

    also, I’m not sure that blocking most of the UI on intermittend network failures is a good thing

  200. lovetox

    Gajim blocks all UI, you cant even write messages ^^

  201. jonas’


  202. lovetox

    i agree its not good

  203. lovetox

    but it needs a lot of work to cache all message, make good ui for it, so the user sees whats sent and what not etc

  204. lovetox

    and then you still have to think alot about the things you just thinign now

  205. jonas’


  206. lovetox

    have to go, see you later

  207. jonas’


  208. moparisthebest has joined

  209. Tobias has joined

  210. Valerian has joined

  211. lnj has joined

  212. sonny has left

  213. sonny has joined

  214. dedekin has joined

  215. Valerian has left

  216. vaulor has joined

  217. dedekin has left

  218. lorddavidiii has left

  219. lorddavidiii has joined

  220. Tobias has joined

  221. Tobias has joined

  222. thorsten has left

  223. genofire has left

  224. Guus has joined

  225. dedekin has joined

  226. thorsten has left

  227. thorsten has left

  228. lorddavidiii has left

  229. dedekin has left

  230. alacer has left

  231. alacer has joined

  232. alacer has left

  233. alacer has joined

  234. lovetox has left

  235. lskdjf has joined

  236. j.r has joined

  237. lovetox has joined

  238. j.r has joined

  239. pep. has joined

  240. dedekin has joined

  241. APach has left

  242. lorddavidiii has joined

  243. rion has left

  244. rion has joined

  245. cookie has left

  246. j.r has joined

  247. cookie has joined

  248. APach has joined

  249. Guus has left

  250. js has joined

  251. guusdk has left

  252. guusdk has joined

  253. js has left

  254. Guus has joined

  255. guusdk has left

  256. valo has left

  257. valo has joined

  258. guusdk has joined

  259. Guus has left

  260. Guus has joined

  261. blabla has left

  262. j.r has joined

  263. !xsf_martin has left

  264. !xsf_martin has joined

  265. Guus has left

  266. alacer has left

  267. alacer has joined

  268. flow

    jonas’, smack das also resend unacked stanzas on resumption FWIW

  269. jonas’

    flow, on failed resumption?

  270. jonas’

    note that this is all about failed resumption.

  271. flow

    yes, alswas

  272. flow


  273. jonas’


  274. flow

    I see the issues you mentioned, but one has to weight it against the advantages

  275. jonas’

    I think this conflicts with the state resync which aioxmpp (i think correctly) does after a failed resumption too much to do this by default

  276. jonas’

    although it could be interesting to auto-resend stanzas after everything else has reported that state has been synced (e.g. MUCs rejoined)

  277. jonas’

    but that would give things even more time to diverge unknowingly…

  278. flow

    hmm, also sounds like to much complexity for a minor/very rare/(non existent?) issue

  279. jonas’

    yeah, I also don’t think this is a good idea

  280. jonas’

    I think I’ll go the route of: resumption failed? -> mark acked stanzas as acked, mark unacked stanzas as failed and let the application/services deal with it

  281. jonas’

    because that’s the only way I can provide clear guarantees to the using code

  282. jonas’

    and aioxmpp is all about clear guarantees

  283. flow

    now I wonder what the code really does on failed resumption, let me check

  284. flow

    yeah, smack does simply resend in every case

  285. jonas’


  286. genofire has joined

  287. jonas’

    I’ll go with "make unacked stanzas fail"

  288. Maranda has joined

  289. jonas’

    this makes "failed resumption without @h" just a special case of "failed resumption with @h", which is conceptually very nice.

  290. lorddavidiii has left

  291. jonas’

    and provides consistency.

  292. Alex has joined

  293. lorddavidiii has joined

  294. thorsten has left

  295. thorsten has joined

  296. Guus has joined

  297. moparisthebest has joined

  298. moparisthebest has joined

  299. !xsf_martin has left

  300. sonny has joined

  301. sonny has joined

  302. sonny has joined

  303. sonny has joined

  304. sonny has joined

  305. Zash has joined

  306. Guus has left

  307. Guus has joined

  308. intosi has left

  309. Guus has left

  310. daniel has left

  311. Ge0rG

    jonas’ [12:10]: > I’ll go with "make unacked stanzas fail" That's a good approach. In yaxim, I'm re-sending all messages that are pending, after a reconnect. But obviously only proper messages

  312. flow

    Ge0rG, so no presences? how do you prevent lost presence updates?

  313. flow

    by remembering the last presence and resend it on reconnection/failed resumption?

  314. Ge0rG

    flow: when resumption fails, you need to redo all presence anyway

  315. vinx55 has joined

  316. Ge0rG

    flow: I'm sending presence from the client preferences on connect

  317. !xsf_martin has joined

  318. flow

    ok, nice idea, so on failed resumption you filter messages stanzas out of the list of pending stanzas and only send those

  319. flow

    that could work

  320. flow

    and on successfull resumption one could remove all but the last self-presence stanza, although that optimization probably won't give you much in most cases

  321. jonas’

    on successful resumption, you don’t need to do anything

  322. flow

    you don't need do, right

  323. jonas’

    ahh, I see, you want to CSI-style collapse multiple queued outbound stanzas

  324. flow

    yeah, just some premature micro optimization that nobody should do client side :D

  325. jonas’


  326. flow


  327. jonas’


  328. Guus has joined

  329. guusdk has left

  330. guusdk has left

  331. guusdk has joined

  332. dedekin has left

  333. ta has joined

  334. ta has joined

  335. ta has left

  336. ta has joined

  337. vinx55 has left

  338. dedekin has joined

  339. blabla has left

  340. tux has joined

  341. alacer has left

  342. tux has joined

  343. Ge0rG

    The issue with that is that you need to fix the counters. There is a big chance to f* it up.

  344. jonas’

    you don’t need to fix counters for stanzas which haven’t been sent to the server yet (only queued)

  345. vinx55 has joined

  346. jonas’

    you don’t need to fix counters for stanzas which haven’t been acked by the server yet (only queued / sent without ack)

  347. jonas’

    you don’t need to fix counters for stanzas of which the server said it didn’t receive them upon resumption

  348. Seve

    So I sent my application for Board. Please wish me lucky stanzas!

  349. jonas’


  350. alacer has joined

  351. jonas’

    so we’ll at least have a competition for board this year...

  352. jonas’

    Link Mauve, https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/index.php?title=Emmanuel_Gil_Peyrot_for_Council_2018&action=edit&redlink=1

  353. Seve

    Very healthy indeed!

  354. jonas’

    well, maybe. ralphm and arc still need to do their applications.

  355. jonas’

    Seve, sounds great :)

  356. Seve

    By the way, last time I think I also had the same problem. Not sure if it was me or some kind of cache. My application link still appears in red colour. Do you remember what was it, jonas’? I feel you were also in the discussion last time I mentioned that.

  357. jonas’

    yes, that’s some caching

  358. jonas’

    I think there’s a magic thing you can say to mediawiki to purge the caches, or you just wait

  359. jonas’

    there we go

  360. jonas’

    append ?action=purge to the URL

  361. Seve

    Woah, lovely! Saving that for next time, thanks, jonas’!

  362. jonas’

    Even though I’m sure that Alex will click the links to be sure that there really is no application before removing candidates when the application period closes :)

  363. jonas’

    (when clicking the link, you get shown the actual existing page, not the "no page here" page)

  364. tux has joined

  365. matlag has left

  366. Guus has left

  367. Guus has joined

  368. ta has left

  369. ta has joined

  370. Guus has left

  371. j.r has joined

  372. lskdjf has joined

  373. alacer has left

  374. j.r has joined

  375. alacer has joined

  376. lskdjf has left

  377. marc has joined

  378. Guus has joined

  379. guusdk has joined

  380. lskdjf has left

  381. alacer has left

  382. alacer has joined

  383. Guus has left

  384. Guus has joined

  385. guusdk has left

  386. guusdk has joined

  387. jmpman has joined

  388. alacer has left

  389. j.r has joined

  390. daniel has left

  391. daniel has joined

  392. Guus has left

  393. jmpman has joined

  394. j.r has joined

  395. lskdjf has joined

  396. Alex has left

  397. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  398. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  399. j.r has left

  400. lskdjf has left

  401. lskdjf has left

  402. lskdjf has left

  403. alacer has joined

  404. Yagiza has left

  405. Yagiza has joined

  406. rion has left

  407. rion has joined

  408. lskdjf has joined

  409. j.r has joined

  410. pep. has left

  411. jonas’


  412. SamWhited has joined

  413. ralphm

    Yes , I do. Haven't copy/pasted yet

  414. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  415. dedekin has left

  416. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  417. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  418. waqas has joined

  419. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  420. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  421. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  422. thorsten has joined

  423. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  424. jonas’

    https://github.com/horazont/aioxmpp/pull/254/commits/f014831357cb7804c0ba6a5b45ebc65f62064bcf#diff-46a421af09863be52f28a8bb03d339d1R34 this is what I went for

  425. jonas’

    (regarding the stream management discussion from earlier)

  426. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  427. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  428. dedekin has joined

  429. ThibG has joined

  430. ThibG has joined

  431. moparisthebest has joined

  432. moparisthebest has joined

  433. vinx55 has left

  434. dedekin has left

  435. vanitasvitae

    ralphm, can you replace my old blog (https://blogs.fsfe.org/vanitasvitae/category/xmpp/feed/) on the planet with my new blog (https://blog.jabberhead.tk/category/xmpp/feed) ?

  436. Zash has joined

  437. Guus has joined

  438. waqas has left

  439. waqas has joined

  440. waqas has left

  441. waqas has joined

  442. sonny has left

  443. matlag has left

  444. Valerian has joined

  445. Valerian has left

  446. Valerian has joined

  447. Valerian has left

  448. Valerian has joined

  449. Valerian has left

  450. Valerian has joined

  451. dedekin has joined

  452. dedekin has left

  453. l has left

  454. vanitasvitae has left

  455. blabla has left

  456. pep. has left

  457. jjrh has left

  458. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  459. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  460. jjrh has joined

  461. pep. has left

  462. pep. has left

  463. dedekin has joined

  464. dedekin has left

  465. krauq has joined

  466. thorsten has joined

  467. dedekin has joined

  468. dedekin has left

  469. vanitasvitae has left

  470. Alex has joined

  471. dedekin has joined

  472. Maranda has left

  473. krauq has left

  474. krauq has joined

  475. tux has left

  476. Alex has left

  477. guusdk has left

  478. alexis has joined

  479. mimi89999 has joined

  480. guusdk has joined

  481. Guus has left

  482. Guus has joined

  483. sonny has joined

  484. alexis has left

  485. Maranda has left

  486. Guus has left

  487. dedekin has left

  488. alexis has joined

  489. matlag has left

  490. Valerian has left

  491. Valerian has joined

  492. dedekin has joined

  493. ThibG has joined

  494. ThibG has joined

  495. blabla has left

  496. Valerian has left

  497. Valerian has joined

  498. thorsten has left

  499. pep. has left

  500. Valerian has left

  501. lskdjf has left

  502. alexis has left

  503. alexis has joined

  504. alexis has joined

  505. lskdjf has left

  506. lskdjf has left

  507. lskdjf has left

  508. lskdjf has left

  509. lskdjf has left

  510. ThibG has joined

  511. ThibG has joined

  512. goffi has joined

  513. alexis has left

  514. tux has joined

  515. guusdk has left

  516. Valerian has joined

  517. sonny has joined

  518. Valerian has left

  519. Valerian has joined

  520. alexis has joined

  521. sonny has joined

  522. lskdjf has left

  523. lskdjf has joined

  524. valo has joined

  525. winfried has left

  526. valo has joined

  527. moparisthebest has joined

  528. lskdjf has left

  529. moparisthebest has joined

  530. Ge0rG has left

  531. Guus has joined

  532. alexis has left

  533. labdsf has left

  534. alexis has joined

  535. labdsf has joined

  536. Guus has left

  537. Guus has joined

  538. Guus has left

  539. Valerian has left

  540. lskdjf has left

  541. lskdjf has left

  542. krauq has left

  543. krauq has joined

  544. thorsten has joined

  545. guusdk has left

  546. guusdk has joined

  547. Guus has joined

  548. alexis has left

  549. Tobias has left

  550. Tobias has joined

  551. alexis has joined

  552. dedekin has left

  553. vanitasvitae has left

  554. labdsf has left

  555. labdsf has joined

  556. dedekin has joined

  557. ThibG has left

  558. ThibG has joined

  559. ta has left

  560. ta has joined

  561. Guus has left

  562. Guus has joined

  563. Guus has left

  564. Alex has joined

  565. lskdjf has left

  566. Guus has joined

  567. moparisthebest has joined

  568. alexis has left

  569. alexis has joined

  570. tux has joined

  571. alexis has joined

  572. labdsf has left

  573. matlag has left

  574. Alex has left

  575. matlag has left

  576. labdsf has joined

  577. dedekin has left

  578. lorddavidiii has left

  579. Guus has left

  580. Guus has joined

  581. moparisthebest has left

  582. moparisthebest has joined

  583. Guus has left

  584. Alex has left

  585. Yagiza has left

  586. Alex has left

  587. Yagiza has joined

  588. Yagiza has left

  589. Guus has joined

  590. vanitasvitae has left

  591. alexis has left

  592. alexis has joined

  593. lorddavidiii has joined

  594. Syndace has left

  595. Syndace has joined

  596. matlag has left

  597. lnj has left

  598. jjrh has left

  599. jjrh has joined

  600. jjrh has left

  601. jjrh has joined

  602. ThibG has left

  603. ThibG has joined

  604. Alex has joined

  605. Valerian has joined

  606. alacer has left

  607. alexis has left

  608. blabla has left

  609. Alex has left

  610. alexis has joined

  611. Valerian has left

  612. Valerian has joined

  613. Valerian has left

  614. Valerian has joined

  615. Valerian has left

  616. Valerian has joined

  617. Valerian has left

  618. Valerian has joined

  619. Valerian has left

  620. Valerian has joined

  621. Valerian has left

  622. Valerian has joined

  623. marc has left

  624. Valerian has left

  625. Valerian has joined

  626. Valerian has left

  627. Valerian has joined

  628. Valerian has left

  629. Valerian has joined

  630. Valerian has left

  631. Valerian has joined

  632. ThibG has left

  633. ThibG has joined

  634. goffi has left

  635. jjrh has left

  636. jjrh has joined

  637. lnj has left

  638. alexis has left

  639. alexis has joined

  640. blabla has joined

  641. ta has left

  642. ta has joined

  643. vaulor has joined

  644. matlag has left

  645. alexis has left

  646. lorddavidiii has left

  647. Valerian has left

  648. Valerian has joined

  649. lskdjf has joined

  650. lskdjf has joined

  651. alexis has joined

  652. lskdjf has left

  653. ThibG has left

  654. ThibG has joined

  655. !xsf_martin has left

  656. lorddavidiii has joined

  657. matlag has left

  658. moparisthebest has joined

  659. matlag has left

  660. moparisthebest has joined

  661. Valerian has left

  662. Guus has left

  663. Guus has joined

  664. Kev has left

  665. Guus has left

  666. jjrh has left

  667. jjrh has joined

  668. lskdjf has joined

  669. mightyBroccoli has joined

  670. alexis has left

  671. Maranda has left

  672. dedekin has joined

  673. alexis has joined

  674. sonny has left

  675. sonny has joined

  676. ta has joined

  677. MattJ has joined

  678. ta has left

  679. ta has joined

  680. moparisthebest has joined

  681. Guus has joined

  682. ThibG has left

  683. SamWhited has left

  684. rion has left

  685. alexis has joined

  686. Steve Kille has left

  687. Nekit has joined

  688. lovetox has left