XSF Discussion - 2018-11-06

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  153. Ge0rG lovetox: I'm not sure if there are situations where Gajim is using an ID generated by another entity, like e.g. Last message correction (where it's not a security problem, but to illustrate the attack channel)
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  178. Ge0rG What's the official way to talk to iteam?
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  180. Ge0rG I'd like to get https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:MobileFrontend installed/enabled on our wiki
  181. jonas’ join iteam muc
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  218. Seve I still don't receive emails from the members list. Can somebody double check, please?
  219. Seve I'm not sure if my new email address was added.
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  257. Alex Seve: which email address? i can check
  258. Seve Alex, seve@delape.net, I used to have my JID the same as my email address before in case you see that still there
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  260. Alex Seve: its there, but sais `nomail, reason B`
  261. Alex looks like you have disabled it once. I can revert he checkbox
  262. Alex you also maybe alble to congigure it here yourself here: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/admin/members/ or send commands to the list. Just let me know what you prefer
  263. Seve That's weird... Yes please do, Alex. Very appreciated!
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  265. Alex resetted, I think you should be good now
  266. Seve Alex: thank you!
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  286. Seve Alex, I have no password to edit it myself. I tried to see if I could ask for a new password and it says `Your subscription request has been received, and will soon be acted upon.` I wonder if that has some relation to it?
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  336. Alex Seve: lets see if you get new messages to the list. If not then please contact me again and we try to figure it out. To me it looks all good now.
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  338. Seve Sure, Alex. Thank you very much for your time, I will let you know :)
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  471. jonas’ in-band bytestreams. is there a way to close an IBB with an error?
  472. jonas’ in-band bytestreams. is there a way to close an IBB with an error while the peer is *not* sending to you?
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  477. Ge0rG jonas’: remember the last incoming message id?
  478. flow jonas’, can't you always send a session-terminate (if we are talking Jingle based IBB)?
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  503. jonas’ flow, no, plain IBB
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  537. Link Mauve jonas’, AFAIK you can’t even do that if they’re sending to you, since they could use the <message/> transport.
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  549. MattJ <message type='error' id='...'>
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  558. Ge0rG Speaking of which, can we get error messages stored in offline storage, because Carbons and multi client?
  559. MattJ Yes
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  575. Ge0rG MattJ: In prosody 0.10?
  576. MattJ "LOL"
  577. Holger Ge0rG: You mean in MAM?
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  580. Ge0rG Holger: MAM is not needed if you have per device offline storage queues
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  582. Holger Hah.
  583. Holger Why proper solutions if we can have ugly hacks!
  584. Ge0rG And my evil secret plan is to defer implementing MAM in yaxim (and annoying MattJ with message loss) until he gives up and finishes client tracking
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  586. Ge0rG Holger: MAM is an ugly hack.
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  588. Holger How do you handle outgoing messages with offline storage? Wait whether the client enables carbons and then push them out?
  589. Holger How do you do paging?
  590. jonas’ different use-cases
  591. Holger Hm?
  592. jonas’ although
  593. jonas’ ignore me, I want to see how this plays out
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  595. Ge0rG Holger: how do you handle sync of messages between MAM and offline? Just drop all offline messages before sending presence?
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  597. Holger That's what Conversations does, the alternative is de-dup, obviously.
  598. Holger Whatever that has to do with my question.
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  602. Holger I think MAM becomes problematic to implement if you *don't* want full-sync. If you do, like you'd get with per-device offline storage, it's trivial. I don't get why you wouldn't just want to implement this.
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  604. Ge0rG Holger: MAM is *also* a dirty hack. Is it better now?
  605. Holger Ok, so that's go for a worse hack instead.
  606. Ge0rG Holger: because it's complicated with my current code base
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  608. Ge0rG Holger: MAM is the worse hack.
  609. Holger Why?
  610. Ge0rG Actually sending out Carbons from offline is a I nice idea
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  612. Holger Haha.
  613. Ge0rG Holger: it's full of race conditions!
  614. Holger For example?
  615. Ge0rG You don't need paging if you do full sync.
  616. Ge0rG Holger: between querying MAM and dropping offline history
  617. Zash It's dirty hacks all the way down to the silicon
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  620. Ge0rG Holger: also between completing your MAM sync and receiving first live messages
  621. jonas’ Ge0rG, isn’t bind2 there to solve all those races?
  622. Ge0rG jonas’: yes
  623. jonas’ purge offline, enable carbons, give you the id of the last stanza in MAM
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  626. Ge0rG jonas’: also magically enable / resume SM
  627. Holger Until we have that, de-dup should be trivial using stanza-IDs.
  628. Ge0rG Holger: you mean unique ids?
  629. Ge0rG Will MAM inject ids into offline storage?
  630. Holger mam:2 guarantees that, yes.
  631. daniel Fwiw Conversations would handle the dedup just fine. But I don't like the extra traffic
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  633. Ge0rG But if you just drop offline history, you'll get message loss if your MAM is "contacts only"
  634. Holger Yes, I don't know why we offer that option.
  635. daniel Yep
  636. Ge0rG And dropping before MAM sync is lossy
  637. daniel Or disabled
  638. Holger You get even more message loss if MAM is disabled.
  639. Holger Right.
  640. daniel I'd like the mam preference to be announced in disco
  641. daniel That could help circumvent that problem
  642. Ge0rG daniel: you drop offline history if MAM is disabled???
  643. Holger I'd like to see the "contacts only" option ditched.
  644. daniel Ge0rG: yes
  645. Ge0rG daniel: ...
  646. Holger > You don't need paging if you do full sync. You might need it for traffic throtting. Otherwise the server will flood you with messages and if you're not fast enough with acknowledging it, you'll exceed 0198 queue size limits and the server will kill your connection.
  647. Holger *throttling
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  649. Holger I open yaxim once in a few weeks, it would become unusable if I implemented that thing.
  650. jonas’ Holger, FWIW, Conversations *is* unusable when you open it only once in a few weeks.
  651. Zash and Gajim
  652. jonas’ or even once a week
  653. jonas’ I plan for like one hour or maybe two for it to sync when I haven’t used it for a week
  654. Holger jonas': Hm no I didn't run into that.
  655. jonas’ maybe it’s just me or my device?
  656. jonas’ ever since that full text search index each message takes like 0.5s to process
  657. jonas’ you can do the math with a few public MAM’d MUCs.
  658. Link Mauve Zash, Gajim fixed that (for public MUCs only) in their latest release from today.
  659. jonas’ it’s terrible in any case.
  660. Zash Link Mauve: By some random coincidence, I can't start Gajim anymore
  661. Ge0rG XMPP is terrible.
  662. Ge0rG &
  663. jonas’ fg
  664. Link Mauve That may be related, you should report this bug at gajim@conference.gajim.org.
  665. Link Mauve Maybe they’ll do a 1.1.1 fixing it.
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  668. Zash I think it's some Python search path thing
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  686. lovetox yes the user can set a threshold now for public mucs how much gets synced
  687. lovetox and the default is 1 day, if you join 20 mucs, you still can expect around 30 seconds until everything is joined and everything is synced
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  689. lovetox problem is, you absolutly have to sync everything at start with MUC
  690. lovetox otherwise you just plain accept not delivering messages to your user that he might want to read
  691. lovetox im not seeing how we can optimize that in any way
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  693. daniel The problem is that 1 day is pretty random. On some days you just have one message in the last 24h on some days you have 1000
  694. daniel I'm considering - for public mucs - to just ditch the entire history instead
  695. daniel Then normal backlog scrolling works as intended
  696. daniel Instead of trying to fill gaps or what ever
  697. daniel But nothing is ideal. There is no good solution
  698. lovetox so not storing messages in public muc to db, and making it completly load on demand
  699. daniel Yes
  700. lovetox yes the only way back scrolling can work i think
  701. daniel *in public with mam
  702. lovetox but this is probably acceptable for a mobile client, but if i do this in Gajim people will scream
  703. daniel Why?
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  706. lovetox they have there 200 MB "i have logs back to 1990" dbs
  707. lovetox and want to search them
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  709. lovetox but yeah indeed nothing speaks against making it default not storing, and if a user wishes he can store for some mucs
  710. lovetox but then no backscrolling there
  711. lovetox maybe thats a good solution for both worlds
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  713. daniel Yeah I haven't thought this all the way through yet. It's just that idea I'm having
  714. daniel Especially for mobile and like short outages you might still want to have a local history
  715. daniel But certainly not catch up with a week or so
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  717. lovetox and the whole backscrolling thing can get pretty easy if client devs could depend on the server using sequential mam ids
  718. lovetox then its trivial to fill a whole
  719. lovetox i still think whatever reason that was why this was dismissed in the XEP, was not worth it at all
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  721. lovetox but mam exists a long time now, maybe we should ask around, and if there is no implementation that depends on mam ids not beeing sequential (because they technically can not do it) then just ditch this, there is no need for something that limiting us, that nobody plans to use anyway
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  728. daniel It's complicated on a database level
  729. daniel Either pretty expensive or impossible in clusters
  730. lovetox hm doubt it seriously :D
  731. lovetox its just that it would be probably considerable more work to make it so
  732. lovetox but then again, where are these clusters, are we writing xeps for that one provider in X years that sets up a cluster
  733. lovetox or for the 1000s who do not
  734. lovetox but i guess we had this discussion, the conclusion was, add a disco feature
  735. lovetox "sequential-ids"
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  737. lovetox if i see this i offer back scrolling, if not i dont
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  739. Holger Well there certainly are clustered setups in practice and I wouldn't want to tell people "sorry XMPP doesn't support this".
  740. lovetox is ejabberd not a bad example, as you offer sequential ids :D
  741. Holger lovetox: I forgot, you actually need sequential IDs or are increasing IDs (i.e. ejabberd's timestamps) good enough to solve the problem?
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  743. daniel If the use case is to know the gaps you need sequential and not just increasing
  744. lovetox maybe im getting my definitions wrong, but sequential and increasing are not counterpars
  745. Holger lovetox: Yeah these days we just ignore the clustering issue because it's somewhat academic in practice. With microsecond timestamps you won't end up with non-unique IDs, or if you ever manage to, then wow you have a message loss/duplicate. This is XMPP after all.
  746. daniel And that's complicated even on an single db
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  748. daniel I mean can you tell me the sql command for insert with id=max(I'd) +1?
  749. Holger Don't SQL engines have this built-in? But that'll obviously be expensive on a cluster, yes.
  750. daniel I think the bad ones do
  751. Holger lovetox: Sequential is 1,2,3,4, incrementing is 1,4,394,1039.
  752. lovetox then incrementing is enough
  753. daniel But from my understanding you try to avoid this in db design
  754. daniel lovetox: how do you find gaps then?
  755. lovetox yeah this fixes just the message ordering problem
  756. lovetox you still have to track gaps somehow
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  758. Zash I started writing a thing based on linked lists once
  759. Zash So what problem can I solve by tagging each message with the id of the previous message?
  760. Holger You solve the same problems and run into the same problems as with sequential IDs, no?
  761. Zash Given a bag of unordered messages, you can shuffle them into sequences, no?
  762. Holger I guess what you do these days is DAGs, i.e. you can add a merge message that has multiple parents once the cluster notices the conflict. Leave it to clients to cope with it.
  763. lovetox the problems we are facing are two fold, 1. have a way to determine where you have a gap in your local storage and fill it efficiently by requesting from mam 2. If you start your client, display all messages in the correct order
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  766. lovetox 2. can be solved by just increasing IDs, or just microtimestamp
  767. flow > 1 day is pretty random
  768. flow make mam allow query the last N stanzas?
  769. Zash flow: ... <before/N>
  770. lovetox we can do this already
  771. Zash wait no, before="" max=N
  772. Zash high resolution timestamps has problems too
  773. Zash like like being unavailable from C stdlib
  774. lovetox maybe the server can solve 1. for us, what if we have a query i give 2 mam-ids, can the server tell me if there are messages in between?
  775. Zash and also having no guarantee of being strictly increasing
  776. flow lovetox, then why 1 day and not, say, 100 messages?
  777. lovetox Zash its enough if its most unlikely to produce duplicates
  778. lovetox i can live with a duplicated timestamp 1 out of a million messages
  779. flow Holger, are you talking about Matrix? :)
  780. flow but serious, this sounds appealing
  781. Holger Zash: The C standard doesn't return the current time at all, no? So you can't implement MAM with it anyway.
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  783. lovetox flow it can be done, but its not the same thing, last 100 can only be done by backpaging
  784. lovetox you get the last 10
  785. lovetox then 10 before that etc
  786. Holger flow: Yeah Matrix and I think various other distributed DBs are doing it that way.
  787. lovetox while from a date, gives you all messages orderd from old to new
  788. Holger And all those DCVSes ...
  789. lovetox and this is pretty important, because i need the messages sent ordered to me
  790. flow lovetox, ahh so MAM is missing a "give me the last N messages starting with the oldest" query?
  791. lovetox i dont know if it needs it .. but yes i guess would be nice
  792. flow (I think we possibly have been there before)
  793. lovetox i more and more think, maybe we dont need this at all, internet gets faster and faster, if i join a muc i show a loading screen and count the messages with a nice UI
  794. Zash flow: I don't think MAM is missing query related things like that
  795. lovetox so the client needs 30 seconds, if you dont start it a week, so what?
  796. lovetox show me an application that does it much better
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  800. flow Zash, possibly, possibly not
  801. flow lovetox, na, that's not what drives me, but I can see why one could be happy with that
  802. Zash Fetch the last chunk of messages and show them. Then do the sync thing quietly in the background.
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  804. flow Zash, fetch using <before/> and max=N?
  805. Zash flow: right
  806. lovetox i could pull with before say 20 messages, but dont store them to db then sync the db in the background
  807. flow Dunno, I think you run in all kinds of oddities with current MAM
  808. lovetox but there is no "background"
  809. lovetox there is only one connection to the server
  810. lovetox and it will be slow to the user if i fetch stuff contstantly
  811. lovetox it would be nice to know what the user wants to do and priorities that
  812. lovetox but he could switch to any muc instantly and then i need the full stuff there
  813. flow lovetox, do small chunks of background sync and pause them once such "high priority" things happen?
  814. lovetox and all that seems rather complex, instead of just a loading screen
  815. lovetox :D
  816. flow or just do small chunks and see if it turns out to be a real issue
  817. flow before we are talking about potential solutions for non-issues ;)
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  820. lovetox joining 20 mucs is also slow if you dont fetch MAM at all
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  822. Zash It is
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  824. flow hmm, dunno, my poezio joins the ~15 MUCs reasonably fast I'd say, but YMMV
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  826. lovetox yeah can you give me a time on that?
  827. lovetox just so i have something to compare Gajim with
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  829. flow lovetox, a few seconds I'd say, but it is really hard to tell as the UI elements are already seen even if the MUC is still in the process of joining
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  831. lovetox hm other topic, nickname conflicts when joining a muc how do clients handle these
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  833. lovetox gajim does a popup and the user has to choose another nick
  834. lovetox but im thinking i dont want to ask the user anymore and just join with a added "_" or something like that
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