Ge0rGlovetox: I'm not sure if there are situations where Gajim is using an ID generated by another entity, like e.g. Last message correction (where it's not a security problem, but to illustrate the attack channel)
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Ge0rGWhat's the official way to talk to iteam?
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Ge0rGI'd like to get https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:MobileFrontend installed/enabled on our wiki
jonas’join iteam muc
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SeveI still don't receive emails from the members list. Can somebody double check, please?
SeveI'm not sure if my new email address was added.
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AlexSeve: which email address? i can check
SeveAlex, seve@delape.net, I used to have my JID the same as my email address before in case you see that still there
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AlexSeve: its there, but sais `nomail, reason B`
Alexlooks like you have disabled it once. I can revert he checkbox
Alexyou also maybe alble to congigure it here yourself here:
https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/admin/members/
or send commands to the list. Just let me know what you prefer
SeveThat's weird... Yes please do, Alex. Very appreciated!
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Alexresetted, I think you should be good now
SeveAlex: thank you!
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SeveAlex, I have no password to edit it myself. I tried to see if I could ask for a new password and it says `Your subscription request has been received, and will soon be acted upon.`
I wonder if that has some relation to it?
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AlexSeve: lets see if you get new messages to the list. If not then please contact me again and we try to figure it out. To me it looks all good now.
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SeveSure, Alex. Thank you very much for your time, I will let you know :)
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jonas’in-band bytestreams. is there a way to close an IBB with an error?
jonas’in-band bytestreams. is there a way to close an IBB with an error while the peer is *not* sending to you?
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Ge0rGjonas’: remember the last incoming message id?
flowjonas’, can't you always send a session-terminate (if we are talking Jingle based IBB)?
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jonas’flow, no, plain IBB
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Link Mauvejonas’, AFAIK you can’t even do that if they’re sending to you, since they could use the <message/> transport.
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MattJ<message type='error' id='...'>
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Ge0rGSpeaking of which, can we get error messages stored in offline storage, because Carbons and multi client?
MattJYes
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Ge0rGMattJ: In prosody 0.10?
MattJ"LOL"
HolgerGe0rG: You mean in MAM?
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Ge0rGHolger: MAM is not needed if you have per device offline storage queues
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HolgerHah.
HolgerWhy proper solutions if we can have ugly hacks!
Ge0rGAnd my evil secret plan is to defer implementing MAM in yaxim (and annoying MattJ with message loss) until he gives up and finishes client tracking
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Ge0rGHolger: MAM is an ugly hack.
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HolgerHow do you handle outgoing messages with offline storage? Wait whether the client enables carbons and then push them out?
HolgerHow do you do paging?
jonas’different use-cases
HolgerHm?
jonas’although
jonas’ignore me, I want to see how this plays out
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Ge0rGHolger: how do you handle sync of messages between MAM and offline? Just drop all offline messages before sending presence?
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HolgerThat's what Conversations does, the alternative is de-dup, obviously.
HolgerWhatever that has to do with my question.
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HolgerI think MAM becomes problematic to implement if you *don't* want full-sync. If you do, like you'd get with per-device offline storage, it's trivial. I don't get why you wouldn't just want to implement this.
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Ge0rGHolger: MAM is *also* a dirty hack. Is it better now?
HolgerOk, so that's go for a worse hack instead.
Ge0rGHolger: because it's complicated with my current code base
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Ge0rGHolger: MAM is the worse hack.
HolgerWhy?
Ge0rGActually sending out Carbons from offline is a I nice idea
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HolgerHaha.
Ge0rGHolger: it's full of race conditions!
HolgerFor example?
Ge0rGYou don't need paging if you do full sync.
Ge0rGHolger: between querying MAM and dropping offline history
ZashIt's dirty hacks all the way down to the silicon
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Ge0rGHolger: also between completing your MAM sync and receiving first live messages
jonas’Ge0rG, isn’t bind2 there to solve all those races?
Ge0rGjonas’: yes
jonas’purge offline, enable carbons, give you the id of the last stanza in MAM
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Ge0rGjonas’: also magically enable / resume SM
HolgerUntil we have that, de-dup should be trivial using stanza-IDs.
Ge0rGHolger: you mean unique ids?
Ge0rGWill MAM inject ids into offline storage?
Holgermam:2 guarantees that, yes.
danielFwiw Conversations would handle the dedup just fine. But I don't like the extra traffic
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Ge0rGBut if you just drop offline history, you'll get message loss if your MAM is "contacts only"
HolgerYes, I don't know why we offer that option.
danielYep
Ge0rGAnd dropping before MAM sync is lossy
danielOr disabled
HolgerYou get even more message loss if MAM is disabled.
HolgerRight.
danielI'd like the mam preference to be announced in disco
danielThat could help circumvent that problem
Ge0rGdaniel: you drop offline history if MAM is disabled???
HolgerI'd like to see the "contacts only" option ditched.
danielGe0rG: yes
Ge0rGdaniel: ...
Holger> You don't need paging if you do full sync.
You might need it for traffic throtting. Otherwise the server will flood you with messages and if you're not fast enough with acknowledging it, you'll exceed 0198 queue size limits and the server will kill your connection.
Holger*throttling
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HolgerI open yaxim once in a few weeks, it would become unusable if I implemented that thing.
jonas’Holger, FWIW, Conversations *is* unusable when you open it only once in a few weeks.
Zashand Gajim
jonas’or even once a week
jonas’I plan for like one hour or maybe two for it to sync when I haven’t used it for a week
Holgerjonas': Hm no I didn't run into that.
jonas’maybe it’s just me or my device?
jonas’ever since that full text search index each message takes like 0.5s to process
jonas’you can do the math with a few public MAM’d MUCs.
Link MauveZash, Gajim fixed that (for public MUCs only) in their latest release from today.
jonas’it’s terrible in any case.
ZashLink Mauve: By some random coincidence, I can't start Gajim anymore
Ge0rGXMPP is terrible.
Ge0rG&
jonas’fg
Link MauveThat may be related, you should report this bug at gajim@conference.gajim.org.
Link MauveMaybe they’ll do a 1.1.1 fixing it.
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ZashI think it's some Python search path thing
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lovetoxyes the user can set a threshold now for public mucs how much gets synced
lovetoxand the default is 1 day, if you join 20 mucs, you still can expect around 30 seconds until everything is joined and everything is synced
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lovetoxproblem is, you absolutly have to sync everything at start with MUC
lovetoxotherwise you just plain accept not delivering messages to your user that he might want to read
lovetoxim not seeing how we can optimize that in any way
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danielThe problem is that 1 day is pretty random. On some days you just have one message in the last 24h on some days you have 1000
danielI'm considering - for public mucs - to just ditch the entire history instead
danielThen normal backlog scrolling works as intended
danielInstead of trying to fill gaps or what ever
danielBut nothing is ideal. There is no good solution
lovetoxso not storing messages in public muc to db, and making it completly load on demand
danielYes
lovetoxyes the only way back scrolling can work i think
daniel*in public with mam
lovetoxbut this is probably acceptable for a mobile client, but if i do this in Gajim people will scream
danielWhy?
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lovetoxthey have there 200 MB "i have logs back to 1990" dbs
lovetoxand want to search them
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lovetoxbut yeah indeed nothing speaks against making it default not storing, and if a user wishes he can store for some mucs
lovetoxbut then no backscrolling there
lovetoxmaybe thats a good solution for both worlds
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danielYeah I haven't thought this all the way through yet. It's just that idea I'm having
danielEspecially for mobile and like short outages you might still want to have a local history
danielBut certainly not catch up with a week or so
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lovetoxand the whole backscrolling thing can get pretty easy if client devs could depend on the server using sequential mam ids
lovetoxthen its trivial to fill a whole
lovetoxi still think whatever reason that was why this was dismissed in the XEP, was not worth it at all
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lovetoxbut mam exists a long time now, maybe we should ask around, and if there is no implementation that depends on mam ids not beeing sequential (because they technically can not do it) then just ditch this, there is no need for something that limiting us, that nobody plans to use anyway
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danielIt's complicated on a database level
danielEither pretty expensive or impossible in clusters
lovetoxhm doubt it seriously :D
lovetoxits just that it would be probably considerable more work to make it so
lovetoxbut then again, where are these clusters, are we writing xeps for that one provider in X years that sets up a cluster
lovetoxor for the 1000s who do not
lovetoxbut i guess we had this discussion, the conclusion was, add a disco feature
lovetox"sequential-ids"
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lovetoxif i see this i offer back scrolling, if not i dont
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HolgerWell there certainly are clustered setups in practice and I wouldn't want to tell people "sorry XMPP doesn't support this".
lovetoxis ejabberd not a bad example, as you offer sequential ids :D
Holgerlovetox: I forgot, you actually need sequential IDs or are increasing IDs (i.e. ejabberd's timestamps) good enough to solve the problem?
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danielIf the use case is to know the gaps you need sequential and not just increasing
lovetoxmaybe im getting my definitions wrong, but sequential and increasing are not counterpars
Holgerlovetox: Yeah these days we just ignore the clustering issue because it's somewhat academic in practice. With microsecond timestamps you won't end up with non-unique IDs, or if you ever manage to, then wow you have a message loss/duplicate. This is XMPP after all.
danielAnd that's complicated even on an single db
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danielI mean can you tell me the sql command for insert with id=max(I'd) +1?
HolgerDon't SQL engines have this built-in? But that'll obviously be expensive on a cluster, yes.
danielI think the bad ones do
Holgerlovetox: Sequential is 1,2,3,4, incrementing is 1,4,394,1039.
lovetoxthen incrementing is enough
danielBut from my understanding you try to avoid this in db design
daniellovetox: how do you find gaps then?
lovetoxyeah this fixes just the message ordering problem
lovetoxyou still have to track gaps somehow
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ZashI started writing a thing based on linked lists once
ZashSo what problem can I solve by tagging each message with the id of the previous message?
HolgerYou solve the same problems and run into the same problems as with sequential IDs, no?
ZashGiven a bag of unordered messages, you can shuffle them into sequences, no?
HolgerI guess what you do these days is DAGs, i.e. you can add a merge message that has multiple parents once the cluster notices the conflict. Leave it to clients to cope with it.
lovetoxthe problems we are facing are two fold,
1. have a way to determine where you have a gap in your local storage and fill it efficiently by requesting from mam
2. If you start your client, display all messages in the correct order
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lovetox2. can be solved by just increasing IDs, or just microtimestamp
flow> 1 day is pretty random
flowmake mam allow query the last N stanzas?
Zashflow: ... <before/N>
lovetoxwe can do this already
Zashwait no, before="" max=N
Zashhigh resolution timestamps has problems too
Zashlike like being unavailable from C stdlib
lovetoxmaybe the server can solve 1. for us, what if we have a query i give 2 mam-ids, can the server tell me if there are messages in between?
Zashand also having no guarantee of being strictly increasing
flowlovetox, then why 1 day and not, say, 100 messages?
lovetoxZash its enough if its most unlikely to produce duplicates
lovetoxi can live with a duplicated timestamp 1 out of a million messages
flowHolger, are you talking about Matrix? :)
flowbut serious, this sounds appealing
HolgerZash: The C standard doesn't return the current time at all, no? So you can't implement MAM with it anyway.
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lovetoxflow it can be done, but its not the same thing, last 100 can only be done by backpaging
lovetoxyou get the last 10
lovetoxthen 10 before that etc
Holgerflow: Yeah Matrix and I think various other distributed DBs are doing it that way.
lovetoxwhile from a date, gives you all messages orderd from old to new
HolgerAnd all those DCVSes ...
lovetoxand this is pretty important, because i need the messages sent ordered to me
flowlovetox, ahh so MAM is missing a "give me the last N messages starting with the oldest" query?
lovetoxi dont know if it needs it .. but yes i guess would be nice
flow(I think we possibly have been there before)
lovetoxi more and more think, maybe we dont need this at all, internet gets faster and faster, if i join a muc i show a loading screen and count the messages with a nice UI
Zashflow: I don't think MAM is missing query related things like that
lovetoxso the client needs 30 seconds, if you dont start it a week, so what?
lovetoxshow me an application that does it much better
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flowZash, possibly, possibly not
flowlovetox, na, that's not what drives me, but I can see why one could be happy with that
ZashFetch the last chunk of messages and show them. Then do the sync thing quietly in the background.
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flowZash, fetch using <before/> and max=N?
Zashflow: right
lovetoxi could pull with before say 20 messages, but dont store them to db then sync the db in the background
flowDunno, I think you run in all kinds of oddities with current MAM
lovetoxbut there is no "background"
lovetoxthere is only one connection to the server
lovetoxand it will be slow to the user if i fetch stuff contstantly
lovetoxit would be nice to know what the user wants to do and priorities that
lovetoxbut he could switch to any muc instantly and then i need the full stuff there
flowlovetox, do small chunks of background sync and pause them once such "high priority" things happen?
lovetoxand all that seems rather complex, instead of just a loading screen
lovetox:D
flowor just do small chunks and see if it turns out to be a real issue
flowbefore we are talking about potential solutions for non-issues ;)
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lovetoxjoining 20 mucs is also slow if you dont fetch MAM at all
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ZashIt is
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flowhmm, dunno, my poezio joins the ~15 MUCs reasonably fast I'd say, but YMMV
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lovetoxyeah can you give me a time on that?
lovetoxjust so i have something to compare Gajim with
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flowlovetox, a few seconds I'd say, but it is really hard to tell as the UI elements are already seen even if the MUC is still in the process of joining
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lovetoxhm other topic, nickname conflicts when joining a muc how do clients handle these
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lovetoxgajim does a popup and the user has to choose another nick
lovetoxbut im thinking i dont want to ask the user anymore and just join with a added "_" or something like that
XSF Discussion - 2018-11-06