XSF Discussion - 2018-11-06

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  153. Ge0rG

    lovetox: I'm not sure if there are situations where Gajim is using an ID generated by another entity, like e.g. Last message correction (where it's not a security problem, but to illustrate the attack channel)

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  178. Ge0rG

    What's the official way to talk to iteam?

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  180. Ge0rG

    I'd like to get https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:MobileFrontend installed/enabled on our wiki

  181. jonas’

    join iteam muc

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  218. Seve

    I still don't receive emails from the members list. Can somebody double check, please?

  219. Seve

    I'm not sure if my new email address was added.

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  257. Alex

    Seve: which email address? i can check

  258. Seve

    Alex, seve@delape.net, I used to have my JID the same as my email address before in case you see that still there

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  260. Alex

    Seve: its there, but sais `nomail, reason B`

  261. Alex

    looks like you have disabled it once. I can revert he checkbox

  262. Alex

    you also maybe alble to congigure it here yourself here: https://mail.jabber.org/mailman/admin/members/ or send commands to the list. Just let me know what you prefer

  263. Seve

    That's weird... Yes please do, Alex. Very appreciated!

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  265. Alex

    resetted, I think you should be good now

  266. Seve

    Alex: thank you!

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  286. Seve

    Alex, I have no password to edit it myself. I tried to see if I could ask for a new password and it says `Your subscription request has been received, and will soon be acted upon.` I wonder if that has some relation to it?

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  336. Alex

    Seve: lets see if you get new messages to the list. If not then please contact me again and we try to figure it out. To me it looks all good now.

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  338. Seve

    Sure, Alex. Thank you very much for your time, I will let you know :)

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  471. jonas’

    in-band bytestreams. is there a way to close an IBB with an error?

  472. jonas’

    in-band bytestreams. is there a way to close an IBB with an error while the peer is *not* sending to you?

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  477. Ge0rG

    jonas’: remember the last incoming message id?

  478. flow

    jonas’, can't you always send a session-terminate (if we are talking Jingle based IBB)?

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  503. jonas’

    flow, no, plain IBB

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  537. Link Mauve

    jonas’, AFAIK you can’t even do that if they’re sending to you, since they could use the <message/> transport.

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  549. MattJ

    <message type='error' id='...'>

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  558. Ge0rG

    Speaking of which, can we get error messages stored in offline storage, because Carbons and multi client?

  559. MattJ


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  575. Ge0rG

    MattJ: In prosody 0.10?

  576. MattJ


  577. Holger

    Ge0rG: You mean in MAM?

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  580. Ge0rG

    Holger: MAM is not needed if you have per device offline storage queues

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  582. Holger


  583. Holger

    Why proper solutions if we can have ugly hacks!

  584. Ge0rG

    And my evil secret plan is to defer implementing MAM in yaxim (and annoying MattJ with message loss) until he gives up and finishes client tracking

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  586. Ge0rG

    Holger: MAM is an ugly hack.

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  588. Holger

    How do you handle outgoing messages with offline storage? Wait whether the client enables carbons and then push them out?

  589. Holger

    How do you do paging?

  590. jonas’

    different use-cases

  591. Holger


  592. jonas’


  593. jonas’

    ignore me, I want to see how this plays out

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  595. Ge0rG

    Holger: how do you handle sync of messages between MAM and offline? Just drop all offline messages before sending presence?

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  597. Holger

    That's what Conversations does, the alternative is de-dup, obviously.

  598. Holger

    Whatever that has to do with my question.

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  602. Holger

    I think MAM becomes problematic to implement if you *don't* want full-sync. If you do, like you'd get with per-device offline storage, it's trivial. I don't get why you wouldn't just want to implement this.

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  604. Ge0rG

    Holger: MAM is *also* a dirty hack. Is it better now?

  605. Holger

    Ok, so that's go for a worse hack instead.

  606. Ge0rG

    Holger: because it's complicated with my current code base

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  608. Ge0rG

    Holger: MAM is the worse hack.

  609. Holger


  610. Ge0rG

    Actually sending out Carbons from offline is a I nice idea

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  612. Holger


  613. Ge0rG

    Holger: it's full of race conditions!

  614. Holger

    For example?

  615. Ge0rG

    You don't need paging if you do full sync.

  616. Ge0rG

    Holger: between querying MAM and dropping offline history

  617. Zash

    It's dirty hacks all the way down to the silicon

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  620. Ge0rG

    Holger: also between completing your MAM sync and receiving first live messages

  621. jonas’

    Ge0rG, isn’t bind2 there to solve all those races?

  622. Ge0rG

    jonas’: yes

  623. jonas’

    purge offline, enable carbons, give you the id of the last stanza in MAM

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  626. Ge0rG

    jonas’: also magically enable / resume SM

  627. Holger

    Until we have that, de-dup should be trivial using stanza-IDs.

  628. Ge0rG

    Holger: you mean unique ids?

  629. Ge0rG

    Will MAM inject ids into offline storage?

  630. Holger

    mam:2 guarantees that, yes.

  631. daniel

    Fwiw Conversations would handle the dedup just fine. But I don't like the extra traffic

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  633. Ge0rG

    But if you just drop offline history, you'll get message loss if your MAM is "contacts only"

  634. Holger

    Yes, I don't know why we offer that option.

  635. daniel


  636. Ge0rG

    And dropping before MAM sync is lossy

  637. daniel

    Or disabled

  638. Holger

    You get even more message loss if MAM is disabled.

  639. Holger


  640. daniel

    I'd like the mam preference to be announced in disco

  641. daniel

    That could help circumvent that problem

  642. Ge0rG

    daniel: you drop offline history if MAM is disabled???

  643. Holger

    I'd like to see the "contacts only" option ditched.

  644. daniel

    Ge0rG: yes

  645. Ge0rG

    daniel: ...

  646. Holger

    > You don't need paging if you do full sync. You might need it for traffic throtting. Otherwise the server will flood you with messages and if you're not fast enough with acknowledging it, you'll exceed 0198 queue size limits and the server will kill your connection.

  647. Holger


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  649. Holger

    I open yaxim once in a few weeks, it would become unusable if I implemented that thing.

  650. jonas’

    Holger, FWIW, Conversations *is* unusable when you open it only once in a few weeks.

  651. Zash

    and Gajim

  652. jonas’

    or even once a week

  653. jonas’

    I plan for like one hour or maybe two for it to sync when I haven’t used it for a week

  654. Holger

    jonas': Hm no I didn't run into that.

  655. jonas’

    maybe it’s just me or my device?

  656. jonas’

    ever since that full text search index each message takes like 0.5s to process

  657. jonas’

    you can do the math with a few public MAM’d MUCs.

  658. Link Mauve

    Zash, Gajim fixed that (for public MUCs only) in their latest release from today.

  659. jonas’

    it’s terrible in any case.

  660. Zash

    Link Mauve: By some random coincidence, I can't start Gajim anymore

  661. Ge0rG

    XMPP is terrible.

  662. Ge0rG &

  663. jonas’


  664. Link Mauve

    That may be related, you should report this bug at gajim@conference.gajim.org.

  665. Link Mauve

    Maybe they’ll do a 1.1.1 fixing it.

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  668. Zash

    I think it's some Python search path thing

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  686. lovetox

    yes the user can set a threshold now for public mucs how much gets synced

  687. lovetox

    and the default is 1 day, if you join 20 mucs, you still can expect around 30 seconds until everything is joined and everything is synced

  688. Valerian has joined

  689. lovetox

    problem is, you absolutly have to sync everything at start with MUC

  690. lovetox

    otherwise you just plain accept not delivering messages to your user that he might want to read

  691. lovetox

    im not seeing how we can optimize that in any way

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  693. daniel

    The problem is that 1 day is pretty random. On some days you just have one message in the last 24h on some days you have 1000

  694. daniel

    I'm considering - for public mucs - to just ditch the entire history instead

  695. daniel

    Then normal backlog scrolling works as intended

  696. daniel

    Instead of trying to fill gaps or what ever

  697. daniel

    But nothing is ideal. There is no good solution

  698. lovetox

    so not storing messages in public muc to db, and making it completly load on demand

  699. daniel


  700. lovetox

    yes the only way back scrolling can work i think

  701. daniel

    *in public with mam

  702. lovetox

    but this is probably acceptable for a mobile client, but if i do this in Gajim people will scream

  703. daniel


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  706. lovetox

    they have there 200 MB "i have logs back to 1990" dbs

  707. lovetox

    and want to search them

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  709. lovetox

    but yeah indeed nothing speaks against making it default not storing, and if a user wishes he can store for some mucs

  710. lovetox

    but then no backscrolling there

  711. lovetox

    maybe thats a good solution for both worlds

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  713. daniel

    Yeah I haven't thought this all the way through yet. It's just that idea I'm having

  714. daniel

    Especially for mobile and like short outages you might still want to have a local history

  715. daniel

    But certainly not catch up with a week or so

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  717. lovetox

    and the whole backscrolling thing can get pretty easy if client devs could depend on the server using sequential mam ids

  718. lovetox

    then its trivial to fill a whole

  719. lovetox

    i still think whatever reason that was why this was dismissed in the XEP, was not worth it at all

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  721. lovetox

    but mam exists a long time now, maybe we should ask around, and if there is no implementation that depends on mam ids not beeing sequential (because they technically can not do it) then just ditch this, there is no need for something that limiting us, that nobody plans to use anyway

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  728. daniel

    It's complicated on a database level

  729. daniel

    Either pretty expensive or impossible in clusters

  730. lovetox

    hm doubt it seriously :D

  731. lovetox

    its just that it would be probably considerable more work to make it so

  732. lovetox

    but then again, where are these clusters, are we writing xeps for that one provider in X years that sets up a cluster

  733. lovetox

    or for the 1000s who do not

  734. lovetox

    but i guess we had this discussion, the conclusion was, add a disco feature

  735. lovetox


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  737. lovetox

    if i see this i offer back scrolling, if not i dont

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  739. Holger

    Well there certainly are clustered setups in practice and I wouldn't want to tell people "sorry XMPP doesn't support this".

  740. lovetox

    is ejabberd not a bad example, as you offer sequential ids :D

  741. Holger

    lovetox: I forgot, you actually need sequential IDs or are increasing IDs (i.e. ejabberd's timestamps) good enough to solve the problem?

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  743. daniel

    If the use case is to know the gaps you need sequential and not just increasing

  744. lovetox

    maybe im getting my definitions wrong, but sequential and increasing are not counterpars

  745. Holger

    lovetox: Yeah these days we just ignore the clustering issue because it's somewhat academic in practice. With microsecond timestamps you won't end up with non-unique IDs, or if you ever manage to, then wow you have a message loss/duplicate. This is XMPP after all.

  746. daniel

    And that's complicated even on an single db

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  748. daniel

    I mean can you tell me the sql command for insert with id=max(I'd) +1?

  749. Holger

    Don't SQL engines have this built-in? But that'll obviously be expensive on a cluster, yes.

  750. daniel

    I think the bad ones do

  751. Holger

    lovetox: Sequential is 1,2,3,4, incrementing is 1,4,394,1039.

  752. lovetox

    then incrementing is enough

  753. daniel

    But from my understanding you try to avoid this in db design

  754. daniel

    lovetox: how do you find gaps then?

  755. lovetox

    yeah this fixes just the message ordering problem

  756. lovetox

    you still have to track gaps somehow

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  758. Zash

    I started writing a thing based on linked lists once

  759. Zash

    So what problem can I solve by tagging each message with the id of the previous message?

  760. Holger

    You solve the same problems and run into the same problems as with sequential IDs, no?

  761. Zash

    Given a bag of unordered messages, you can shuffle them into sequences, no?

  762. Holger

    I guess what you do these days is DAGs, i.e. you can add a merge message that has multiple parents once the cluster notices the conflict. Leave it to clients to cope with it.

  763. lovetox

    the problems we are facing are two fold, 1. have a way to determine where you have a gap in your local storage and fill it efficiently by requesting from mam 2. If you start your client, display all messages in the correct order

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  766. lovetox

    2. can be solved by just increasing IDs, or just microtimestamp

  767. flow

    > 1 day is pretty random

  768. flow

    make mam allow query the last N stanzas?

  769. Zash

    flow: ... <before/N>

  770. lovetox

    we can do this already

  771. Zash

    wait no, before="" max=N

  772. Zash

    high resolution timestamps has problems too

  773. Zash

    like like being unavailable from C stdlib

  774. lovetox

    maybe the server can solve 1. for us, what if we have a query i give 2 mam-ids, can the server tell me if there are messages in between?

  775. Zash

    and also having no guarantee of being strictly increasing

  776. flow

    lovetox, then why 1 day and not, say, 100 messages?

  777. lovetox

    Zash its enough if its most unlikely to produce duplicates

  778. lovetox

    i can live with a duplicated timestamp 1 out of a million messages

  779. flow

    Holger, are you talking about Matrix? :)

  780. flow

    but serious, this sounds appealing

  781. Holger

    Zash: The C standard doesn't return the current time at all, no? So you can't implement MAM with it anyway.

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  783. lovetox

    flow it can be done, but its not the same thing, last 100 can only be done by backpaging

  784. lovetox

    you get the last 10

  785. lovetox

    then 10 before that etc

  786. Holger

    flow: Yeah Matrix and I think various other distributed DBs are doing it that way.

  787. lovetox

    while from a date, gives you all messages orderd from old to new

  788. Holger

    And all those DCVSes ...

  789. lovetox

    and this is pretty important, because i need the messages sent ordered to me

  790. flow

    lovetox, ahh so MAM is missing a "give me the last N messages starting with the oldest" query?

  791. lovetox

    i dont know if it needs it .. but yes i guess would be nice

  792. flow

    (I think we possibly have been there before)

  793. lovetox

    i more and more think, maybe we dont need this at all, internet gets faster and faster, if i join a muc i show a loading screen and count the messages with a nice UI

  794. Zash

    flow: I don't think MAM is missing query related things like that

  795. lovetox

    so the client needs 30 seconds, if you dont start it a week, so what?

  796. lovetox

    show me an application that does it much better

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  800. flow

    Zash, possibly, possibly not

  801. flow

    lovetox, na, that's not what drives me, but I can see why one could be happy with that

  802. Zash

    Fetch the last chunk of messages and show them. Then do the sync thing quietly in the background.

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  804. flow

    Zash, fetch using <before/> and max=N?

  805. Zash

    flow: right

  806. lovetox

    i could pull with before say 20 messages, but dont store them to db then sync the db in the background

  807. flow

    Dunno, I think you run in all kinds of oddities with current MAM

  808. lovetox

    but there is no "background"

  809. lovetox

    there is only one connection to the server

  810. lovetox

    and it will be slow to the user if i fetch stuff contstantly

  811. lovetox

    it would be nice to know what the user wants to do and priorities that

  812. lovetox

    but he could switch to any muc instantly and then i need the full stuff there

  813. flow

    lovetox, do small chunks of background sync and pause them once such "high priority" things happen?

  814. lovetox

    and all that seems rather complex, instead of just a loading screen

  815. lovetox


  816. flow

    or just do small chunks and see if it turns out to be a real issue

  817. flow

    before we are talking about potential solutions for non-issues ;)

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  820. lovetox

    joining 20 mucs is also slow if you dont fetch MAM at all

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  822. Zash

    It is

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  824. flow

    hmm, dunno, my poezio joins the ~15 MUCs reasonably fast I'd say, but YMMV

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  826. lovetox

    yeah can you give me a time on that?

  827. lovetox

    just so i have something to compare Gajim with

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  829. flow

    lovetox, a few seconds I'd say, but it is really hard to tell as the UI elements are already seen even if the MUC is still in the process of joining

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  831. lovetox

    hm other topic, nickname conflicts when joining a muc how do clients handle these

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  833. lovetox

    gajim does a popup and the user has to choose another nick

  834. lovetox

    but im thinking i dont want to ask the user anymore and just join with a added "_" or something like that

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