XSF Discussion - 2018-11-09

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  203. Ge0rG Is there a way to persistently put something into your presence for your contacts to see it without keeping a client logged in?
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  209. jonas’ no
  210. jonas’ use PEP for that, maybe?
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  214. Ge0rG What if I want to limit it to individual contacts (speaking for a Moved redesign)
  215. Zash PEP+?
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  217. Ge0rG So every of my contacts(' servers) need to subscribe to my Moved node?
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  219. Ge0rG you could send an 'unsubscribe' followed by a 'subscribe', because the server MUST store the latter!
  220. Ge0rG one could send a <message><moved/> as well
  221. jonas’ Ge0rG, ahh, that’s the context
  222. jonas’ sending a <moved/> message + the unsubscribed+unsubscribe presence is probably not bad
  223. Ge0rG you can send a directed/broadcast presence with <moved/>, but that will vanish as soon as you logout
  224. jonas’ sending a <moved/> message + the unsubscribed+unsubscribe presence including the <moved/> is probably not bad
  225. jonas’ Ge0rG, you could send type="unavailable" when you log out
  226. jonas’ with the payload
  227. Ge0rG jonas’: will the server cache that?
  228. jonas’ dunno
  229. Zash Maybe
  230. Ge0rG MAYbe?
  231. jonas’ I feel like it should
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  233. Zash Prosody doesn't
  234. jonas’ pity
  235. Ge0rG it should also cache an 'unsubscribe'
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  237. Ge0rG It should, but unfortunately it only MAY.
  238. Ge0rG can has PR 6121?
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  241. jonas’ add erratum
  242. Ge0rG Where to?
  243. jonas’ dunno, figure out ietf process
  244. jonas’ dunno, figure out ietf process?
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  246. fippo ge0rg: wasn't the server allowed to return your last unavailable presence?
  247. Ge0rG fippo: "allowed to" is not a behavior I can rely on
  248. fippo i think that was allowd but then not used by many servers because it means a reply to *every* probe which makes presence traffic even worse
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  250. fippo xep-12 example 5 might do the job
  251. fippo but i am not sure how many servers implement that either. and sending an extra iq to each contact...
  252. jonas’ don’t servers have to reply to every probe anyways?
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  254. Ge0rG fippo: it doesn't even contain the whole presence, just the non-i18n status text.
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  390. Ge0rG > Clients accepting the moved subscription SHOULD indicate to the user that that this subscription request was the result of a move operation and because of potential malicious behavior SHOULD NOT auto-accept the subscription without displaying the <moved/> JID to the user. I'm reading this as "clients MAY auto-accept the subscription if they display the <moved/> JID to the user." - am I right in that interpretation of English?
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  393. Zash Isn't RFC 2119 language not supposed to apply to UI things?
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  396. Ge0rG Zash: yes.
  397. MattJ Zash, conventionally
  398. Ge0rG But that doesn't answer my question.
  399. Ge0rG I know it's not as much fun as discussing the applicability of lower-case RFC 2119 to UI, but still.
  400. Zash Clients ShOuLd nOt
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  402. Zash Ge0rG: I believe I interpret the quoted text the same way you do.
  403. Ge0rG Thanks.
  404. Zash Implementation recommendation: Tell the user what happens.
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  406. Ge0rG What if the user isn't at the screen.
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  408. Ge0rG And there is still no clean way to persistently convey a <moved> when unsubscribing.
  409. Zash Send out the informationator bot to search for and .. inform the user.
  410. Ge0rG I think I'll have to <message> it.
  411. Zash Get MattJ to look into https://issues.prosody.im/689 :)
  412. Zash Blocker for all the nice things Ge0rG wants to fix :(
  413. Ge0rG Zash: but this is only for 'subscribe'
  414. Ge0rG is it still not fixed?
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  416. Zash nice things are not to be had!
  417. Zash Ge0rG: Oh there's no such rule about keeping the unsubscribe(d)?
  418. Zash Moved doesn't help when I lost my phone along with the autogenerated password it created the account with?
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  420. Ge0rG Zash: no.
  421. Ge0rG and no.
  422. Zash Message might be more reliable then.
  423. Ge0rG Yes.
  424. Zash <message> all the things
  425. Ge0rG so send the same payload three times: message, unsubscribe, unsubscribed
  426. Zash Heh
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  429. Ge0rG Zash: https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6121.html#sub-cancel-inbound > Implementation Note: If the user's account has no available resources when the inbound unsubscribed notification is received, the user's server MAY keep a record of the notification (ideally the complete presence stanza) and then deliver the notification when the account next has an available resource. This behavior provides more complete signaling to the user regarding the reasons for the roster change that occurred while the user was offline.
  430. Ge0rG Maybe I need to rewrite PARS to use <message> then.
  431. Ge0rG because prosody.
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  441. Ge0rG And then it's getting really weird. If a client auto-accepts a Moved, all other clients need to know about it as well.
  442. Ge0rG So they can change message archive etc.
  443. Zash Why?
  444. Zash Ah, yeah
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  446. Ge0rG The longer I think about it, the worse everything becomes.
  447. Zash Things are complicated, who knew?
  448. Ge0rG a <message> will only be there in MAM for a limited time
  449. Kev Will it?
  450. Ge0rG Kev: do you have eternal MAM?
  451. Kev I mean, heat death of the universe or something, sure, but possible as long as you're using your account.
  452. Kev Yeah.
  453. Ge0rG Kev: that's great!
  454. Ge0rG My server had a meltdown because I was storing 14 days worth.
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  456. Kev isode.com's running with a few years now, I think.
  457. Ge0rG Kev: how many indian trading bots are there on isode.com?
  458. Kev Possibly fewer than average.
  459. Ge0rG I don't know about other public servers, but there is a handful on mine.
  460. Ge0rG with something like 10k msg/day
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  464. Ge0rG I suppose we don't have something like an account tombstone, right?
  465. Ge0rG PEP or vcard would be potential candidates to put one in.
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  528. perflyst Hi, is there a rss feed for https://xmpp.org/blog.html available? I couldnt find one...
  529. Zash clicks RSS icon
  530. Zash gets https://xmpp.org/feeds/all.atom.xml
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  532. Zash Browsers hate this one small trick
  533. perflyst I didnt see that "Feeds" on the left, thanks :)
  534. Zash Oh look, there too
  535. Zash In Firefox one can add back the RSS button that they removed because reasons.
  536. perflyst what do you mean? rss button in firefox browser or on the website?
  537. Zash in firefox
  538. perflyst yeah that is because they removed / are removing rss support in firefox
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  540. perflyst https://www.ghacks.net/2018/07/25/mozilla-plans-to-remove-rss-feed-reader-and-live-bookmarks-support-from-firefox/
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  548. Ge0rG RSS is dead. Together with NNTP and XMPP.
  549. Zash Can the Web be next?
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  556. Ge0rG No, the web is way too shittily designed to go down
  557. Zash To shitty to fail!
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