XSF Discussion - 2018-11-09


  1. mrdoctorwho has joined

  2. mrdoctorwho has left

  3. mrdoctorwho has joined

  4. j.r has joined

  5. j.r has joined

  6. UsL has left

  7. UsL has joined

  8. andrey.g has left

  9. andrey.g has joined

  10. matlag has left

  11. Holger has left

  12. l has joined

  13. Lance has joined

  14. jjrh has left

  15. jjrh has left

  16. j.r has left

  17. j.r has joined

  18. Lance has left

  19. lorddavidiii has left

  20. Lance has joined

  21. jjrh has left

  22. Lance has left

  23. Lance has left

  24. SamWhited has left

  25. lorddavidiii has joined

  26. lskdjf has joined

  27. jjrh has left

  28. labdsf has joined

  29. efrit has joined

  30. j.r has left

  31. j.r has joined

  32. krauq has left

  33. Maranda has left

  34. MattJ has left

  35. ta has left

  36. ta has joined

  37. l has joined

  38. lskdjf has joined

  39. moparisthebest has left

  40. moparisthebest has joined

  41. jjrh has left

  42. krauq has joined

  43. jjrh has left

  44. Str4tocaster has joined

  45. efrit has left

  46. moparisthebest has left

  47. moparisthebest has joined

  48. jjrh has left

  49. Str4tocaster has left

  50. Str4tocaster has joined

  51. Ge0rG has left

  52. Str4tocaster has left

  53. Str4tocaster has joined

  54. Ge0rG has left

  55. alacer has joined

  56. labdsf has left

  57. Str4tocaster has left

  58. Str4tocaster has joined

  59. Str4tocaster has left

  60. Str4tocaster has joined

  61. Str4tocaster has left

  62. Str4tocaster has joined

  63. alacer has left

  64. alacer has joined

  65. Str4tocaster has left

  66. Str4tocaster has joined

  67. Str4tocaster has left

  68. Str4tocaster has joined

  69. alacer has left

  70. alacer has joined

  71. guusdk has left

  72. Guus has left

  73. jjrh has left

  74. Str4tocaster has left

  75. Str4tocaster has joined

  76. guusdk has joined

  77. waqas has left

  78. Str4tocaster has left

  79. Str4tocaster has joined

  80. UsL has left

  81. Str4tocaster has left

  82. Str4tocaster has joined

  83. Neustradamus has left

  84. alacer has left

  85. UsL has joined

  86. UsL has left

  87. UsL has joined

  88. alacer has joined

  89. andy has joined

  90. mrdoctorwho has left

  91. mrdoctorwho has joined

  92. lorddavidiii has left

  93. lorddavidiii has joined

  94. ta has joined

  95. ta has joined

  96. alacer has left

  97. blabla has joined

  98. guusdk has left

  99. guusdk has joined

  100. Str4tocaster has left

  101. Str4tocaster has joined

  102. labdsf has joined

  103. UsL has left

  104. Str4tocaster has left

  105. Str4tocaster has joined

  106. marc has joined

  107. APach has left

  108. goffi has joined

  109. guusdk has left

  110. guusdk has joined

  111. Str4tocaster has left

  112. Str4tocaster has joined

  113. vaulor has joined

  114. marc has left

  115. Maranda has joined

  116. intosi has left

  117. intosi has joined

  118. Maranda has joined

  119. lorddavidiii has left

  120. APach has joined

  121. UsL has joined

  122. Zash has left

  123. alacer has joined

  124. vaulor has left

  125. Zash has left

  126. alacer has left

  127. blabla has joined

  128. blabla has joined

  129. Zash has left

  130. Zash has joined

  131. mightyBroccoli has left

  132. mightyBroccoli has joined

  133. labdsf has left

  134. valo has joined

  135. valo has joined

  136. Nekit has joined

  137. alacer has joined

  138. labdsf has joined

  139. Ge0rG has joined

  140. Ge0rG has joined

  141. Ge0rG has joined

  142. Ge0rG has joined

  143. blabla has joined

  144. Ge0rG has left

  145. Nekit has left

  146. Nekit has joined

  147. Ge0rG has left

  148. tux has joined

  149. tux has joined

  150. Alex has joined

  151. Ge0rG has left

  152. labdsf has left

  153. alacer has left

  154. tux has joined

  155. !xsf_martin has joined

  156. Steve Kille has left

  157. Steve Kille has left

  158. Tobias has joined

  159. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  160. goffi has left

  161. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  162. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  163. labdsf has joined

  164. labdsf has left

  165. l has joined

  166. dwd has joined

  167. l has left

  168. l has joined

  169. blabla has left

  170. blabla has joined

  171. !xsf_martin has left

  172. labdsf has joined

  173. lorddavidiii has joined

  174. Str4tocaster has left

  175. Str4tocaster has joined

  176. alacer has joined

  177. labdsf has left

  178. alacer has left

  179. alacer has joined

  180. labdsf has joined

  181. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  182. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  183. Zash has left

  184. Nekit has left

  185. Nekit has joined

  186. valo has joined

  187. Syndace has joined

  188. Valerian has joined

  189. Zash has left

  190. lumi has joined

  191. Str4tocaster has left

  192. Str4tocaster has joined

  193. labdsf has left

  194. Str4tocaster has left

  195. Str4tocaster has joined

  196. Valerian has left

  197. labdsf has joined

  198. Steve Kille has left

  199. Steve Kille has left

  200. ta has left

  201. Valerian has joined

  202. Str4tocaster has left

  203. Ge0rG

    Is there a way to persistently put something into your presence for your contacts to see it without keeping a client logged in?

  204. Str4tocaster has joined

  205. guusdk has left

  206. guusdk has joined

  207. lskdjf has joined

  208. dwd has left

  209. jonas’

    no

  210. jonas’

    use PEP for that, maybe?

  211. Valerian has left

  212. Valerian has joined

  213. alacer has left

  214. Ge0rG

    What if I want to limit it to individual contacts (speaking for a Moved redesign)

  215. Zash

    PEP+?

  216. valo has left

  217. Ge0rG

    So every of my contacts(' servers) need to subscribe to my Moved node?

  218. valo has joined

  219. Ge0rG

    you could send an 'unsubscribe' followed by a 'subscribe', because the server MUST store the latter!

  220. Ge0rG

    one could send a <message><moved/> as well

  221. jonas’

    Ge0rG, ahh, that’s the context

  222. jonas’

    sending a <moved/> message + the unsubscribed+unsubscribe presence is probably not bad

  223. Ge0rG

    you can send a directed/broadcast presence with <moved/>, but that will vanish as soon as you logout

  224. jonas’

    sending a <moved/> message + the unsubscribed+unsubscribe presence including the <moved/> is probably not bad

  225. jonas’

    Ge0rG, you could send type="unavailable" when you log out

  226. jonas’

    with the payload

  227. Ge0rG

    jonas’: will the server cache that?

  228. jonas’

    dunno

  229. Zash

    Maybe

  230. Ge0rG

    MAYbe?

  231. jonas’

    I feel like it should

  232. l has joined

  233. Zash

    Prosody doesn't

  234. jonas’

    pity

  235. Ge0rG

    it should also cache an 'unsubscribe'

  236. j.r has joined

  237. Ge0rG

    It should, but unfortunately it only MAY.

  238. Ge0rG

    can has PR 6121?

  239. mightyBroccoli has left

  240. mightyBroccoli has joined

  241. jonas’

    add erratum

  242. Ge0rG

    Where to?

  243. jonas’

    dunno, figure out ietf process

  244. jonas’

    dunno, figure out ietf process?

  245. ThibG has joined

  246. fippo

    ge0rg: wasn't the server allowed to return your last unavailable presence?

  247. Ge0rG

    fippo: "allowed to" is not a behavior I can rely on

  248. fippo

    i think that was allowd but then not used by many servers because it means a reply to *every* probe which makes presence traffic even worse

  249. guusdk has joined

  250. fippo

    xep-12 example 5 might do the job

  251. fippo

    but i am not sure how many servers implement that either. and sending an extra iq to each contact...

  252. jonas’

    don’t servers have to reply to every probe anyways?

  253. dwd has joined

  254. Ge0rG

    fippo: it doesn't even contain the whole presence, just the non-i18n status text.

  255. guusdk has left

  256. guusdk has joined

  257. daniel has left

  258. thorsten has joined

  259. Str4tocaster has left

  260. Str4tocaster has joined

  261. Str4tocaster has left

  262. thorsten has left

  263. Tobias has left

  264. Tobias has joined

  265. thorsten has left

  266. j.r has joined

  267. thorsten has left

  268. Str4tocaster has joined

  269. alacer has joined

  270. genofire has left

  271. krauq has joined

  272. thorsten has left

  273. alacer has left

  274. Tobias has left

  275. Tobias has joined

  276. Guus has left

  277. Valerian has left

  278. Str4tocaster has left

  279. Str4tocaster has joined

  280. Str4tocaster has left

  281. thorsten has left

  282. Holger has left

  283. Tobias has left

  284. Tobias has joined

  285. lorddavidiii has left

  286. matlag has left

  287. thorsten has left

  288. Yagiza has joined

  289. ta has left

  290. thorsten has left

  291. waqas has joined

  292. Neustradamus has left

  293. thorsten has left

  294. rion has left

  295. Zash has left

  296. moparisthebest has left

  297. Tobias has joined

  298. mrdoctorwho has left

  299. mrdoctorwho has joined

  300. dwd has left

  301. Zash has joined

  302. Zash has left

  303. mrdoctorwho has left

  304. mrdoctorwho has joined

  305. mrdoctorwho has left

  306. mrdoctorwho has joined

  307. Zash has joined

  308. mrdoctorwho has left

  309. mrdoctorwho has joined

  310. lskdjf has left

  311. lskdjf has joined

  312. mrdoctorwho has left

  313. mrdoctorwho has joined

  314. thorsten has left

  315. dwd has joined

  316. mrdoctorwho has left

  317. mrdoctorwho has joined

  318. lorddavidiii has joined

  319. genofire has left

  320. mrdoctorwho has joined

  321. genofire has joined

  322. mrdoctorwho has joined

  323. lovetox has joined

  324. mrdoctorwho has left

  325. mrdoctorwho has joined

  326. mrdoctorwho has left

  327. mrdoctorwho has joined

  328. marc has joined

  329. mrdoctorwho has left

  330. mrdoctorwho has joined

  331. mrdoctorwho has left

  332. mrdoctorwho has joined

  333. daniel has left

  334. matlag has left

  335. l has joined

  336. Yagiza has left

  337. lskdjf has joined

  338. UsL has left

  339. winfried has left

  340. winfried has joined

  341. alacer has joined

  342. alacer has left

  343. alacer has joined

  344. Valerian has joined

  345. alacer has left

  346. andy has left

  347. labdsf has left

  348. labdsf has joined

  349. winfried has left

  350. winfried has joined

  351. lorddavidiii has left

  352. Valerian has left

  353. efrit has joined

  354. ThibG has left

  355. ThibG has joined

  356. vaulor has joined

  357. Yagiza has joined

  358. Ge0rG has left

  359. dwd has left

  360. labdsf has left

  361. labdsf has joined

  362. jonas’ has left

  363. ThibG has left

  364. ThibG has joined

  365. lumi has joined

  366. Maranda has joined

  367. Maranda has joined

  368. matlag has left

  369. guusdk has left

  370. dwd has joined

  371. UsL has joined

  372. krauq has left

  373. krauq has joined

  374. lnj has joined

  375. peter has joined

  376. lskdjf has joined

  377. dwd has left

  378. mrdoctorwho has left

  379. daniel has left

  380. mrdoctorwho has joined

  381. moparisthebest has joined

  382. daniel has left

  383. lskdjf has left

  384. lskdjf has left

  385. daniel has left

  386. Steve Kille has joined

  387. lskdjf has joined

  388. lskdjf has left

  389. dwd has joined

  390. Ge0rG

    > Clients accepting the moved subscription SHOULD indicate to the user that that this subscription request was the result of a move operation and because of potential malicious behavior SHOULD NOT auto-accept the subscription without displaying the <moved/> JID to the user. I'm reading this as "clients MAY auto-accept the subscription if they display the <moved/> JID to the user." - am I right in that interpretation of English?

  391. Valerian has joined

  392. l has left

  393. Zash

    Isn't RFC 2119 language not supposed to apply to UI things?

  394. guusdk has left

  395. guusdk has joined

  396. Ge0rG

    Zash: yes.

  397. MattJ

    Zash, conventionally

  398. Ge0rG

    But that doesn't answer my question.

  399. Ge0rG

    I know it's not as much fun as discussing the applicability of lower-case RFC 2119 to UI, but still.

  400. Zash

    Clients ShOuLd nOt

  401. SamWhited has left

  402. Zash

    Ge0rG: I believe I interpret the quoted text the same way you do.

  403. Ge0rG

    Thanks.

  404. Zash

    Implementation recommendation: Tell the user what happens.

  405. l has left

  406. Ge0rG

    What if the user isn't at the screen.

  407. dwd has left

  408. Ge0rG

    And there is still no clean way to persistently convey a <moved> when unsubscribing.

  409. Zash

    Send out the informationator bot to search for and .. inform the user.

  410. Ge0rG

    I think I'll have to <message> it.

  411. Zash

    Get MattJ to look into https://issues.prosody.im/689 :)

  412. Zash

    Blocker for all the nice things Ge0rG wants to fix :(

  413. Ge0rG

    Zash: but this is only for 'subscribe'

  414. Ge0rG

    is it still not fixed?

  415. Valerian has left

  416. Zash

    nice things are not to be had!

  417. Zash

    Ge0rG: Oh there's no such rule about keeping the unsubscribe(d)?

  418. Zash

    Moved doesn't help when I lost my phone along with the autogenerated password it created the account with?

  419. l has left

  420. Ge0rG

    Zash: no.

  421. Ge0rG

    and no.

  422. Zash

    Message might be more reliable then.

  423. Ge0rG

    Yes.

  424. Zash

    <message> all the things

  425. Ge0rG

    so send the same payload three times: message, unsubscribe, unsubscribed

  426. Zash

    Heh

  427. Steve Kille has left

  428. l has left

  429. Ge0rG

    Zash: https://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6121.html#sub-cancel-inbound > Implementation Note: If the user's account has no available resources when the inbound unsubscribed notification is received, the user's server MAY keep a record of the notification (ideally the complete presence stanza) and then deliver the notification when the account next has an available resource. This behavior provides more complete signaling to the user regarding the reasons for the roster change that occurred while the user was offline.

  430. Ge0rG

    Maybe I need to rewrite PARS to use <message> then.

  431. Ge0rG

    because prosody.

  432. Yagiza has left

  433. Yagiza has joined

  434. dwd has joined

  435. l has left

  436. dwd has left

  437. Steve Kille has joined

  438. l has joined

  439. l has left

  440. matlag has left

  441. Ge0rG

    And then it's getting really weird. If a client auto-accepts a Moved, all other clients need to know about it as well.

  442. Ge0rG

    So they can change message archive etc.

  443. Zash

    Why?

  444. Zash

    Ah, yeah

  445. labdsf has left

  446. Ge0rG

    The longer I think about it, the worse everything becomes.

  447. Zash

    Things are complicated, who knew?

  448. Ge0rG

    a <message> will only be there in MAM for a limited time

  449. Kev

    Will it?

  450. Ge0rG

    Kev: do you have eternal MAM?

  451. Kev

    I mean, heat death of the universe or something, sure, but possible as long as you're using your account.

  452. Kev

    Yeah.

  453. Ge0rG

    Kev: that's great!

  454. Ge0rG

    My server had a meltdown because I was storing 14 days worth.

  455. daniel has left

  456. Kev

    isode.com's running with a few years now, I think.

  457. Ge0rG

    Kev: how many indian trading bots are there on isode.com?

  458. Kev

    Possibly fewer than average.

  459. Ge0rG

    I don't know about other public servers, but there is a handful on mine.

  460. Ge0rG

    with something like 10k msg/day

  461. Yagiza has left

  462. Yagiza has joined

  463. l has left

  464. Ge0rG

    I suppose we don't have something like an account tombstone, right?

  465. Ge0rG

    PEP or vcard would be potential candidates to put one in.

  466. alacer has joined

  467. alacer has left

  468. alacer has joined

  469. guusdk has left

  470. guusdk has joined

  471. Guus has left

  472. Guus has joined

  473. Steve Kille has left

  474. sonny has left

  475. sonny has joined

  476. Steve Kille has joined

  477. dwd has joined

  478. alacer has left

  479. dwd has left

  480. Guus has left

  481. genofire has left

  482. Alex has left

  483. moparisthebest has joined

  484. daniel has left

  485. efrit has left

  486. Steve Kille has left

  487. marc has left

  488. SamWhited has left

  489. lskdjf has joined

  490. marc has joined

  491. dwd has joined

  492. labdsf has joined

  493. dwd has left

  494. Valerian has joined

  495. tux has joined

  496. labdsf has left

  497. genofire has left

  498. efrit has joined

  499. sonny has left

  500. sonny has joined

  501. dwd has joined

  502. michael has joined

  503. labdsf has joined

  504. michael has left

  505. Guus has joined

  506. dwd has left

  507. Lance has joined

  508. labdsf has left

  509. labdsf has joined

  510. labdsf has left

  511. labdsf has joined

  512. APach has left

  513. Alex has joined

  514. Valerian has left

  515. Valerian has joined

  516. marc has left

  517. ThibG has joined

  518. APach has joined

  519. !xsf_martin has left

  520. !xsf_martin has left

  521. !xsf_martin has joined

  522. dwd has joined

  523. Tobias has left

  524. SamWhited has left

  525. dwd has left

  526. efrit has left

  527. perflyst has joined

  528. perflyst

    Hi, is there a rss feed for https://xmpp.org/blog.html available? I couldnt find one...

  529. Zash clicks RSS icon

  530. Zash gets https://xmpp.org/feeds/all.atom.xml

  531. Steve Kille has joined

  532. Zash

    Browsers hate this one small trick

  533. perflyst

    I didnt see that "Feeds" on the left, thanks :)

  534. Zash

    Oh look, there too

  535. Zash

    In Firefox one can add back the RSS button that they removed because reasons.

  536. perflyst

    what do you mean? rss button in firefox browser or on the website?

  537. Zash

    in firefox

  538. perflyst

    yeah that is because they removed / are removing rss support in firefox

  539. Valerian has left

  540. perflyst

    https://www.ghacks.net/2018/07/25/mozilla-plans-to-remove-rss-feed-reader-and-live-bookmarks-support-from-firefox/

  541. lorddavidiii has joined

  542. daniel has left

  543. perflyst has left

  544. Zash has left

  545. daniel has left

  546. l has left

  547. l has joined

  548. Ge0rG

    RSS is dead. Together with NNTP and XMPP.

  549. Zash

    Can the Web be next?

  550. Steve Kille has left

  551. mightyBroccoli has left

  552. mightyBroccoli has joined

  553. dwd has joined

  554. peter has left

  555. dwd has left

  556. Ge0rG

    No, the web is way too shittily designed to go down

  557. Zash

    To shitty to fail!

  558. ThibG has joined

  559. Lance has left

  560. !xsf_martin has left

  561. !xsf_martin has left

  562. Lance has joined

  563. dwd has joined

  564. dwd has left

  565. ThibG has left

  566. ThibG has joined

  567. jjrh has left

  568. Alex has left

  569. Alex has joined

  570. dwd has joined

  571. dwd has left

  572. peter has joined

  573. Guus has left

  574. Guus has joined

  575. Guus has left

  576. blabla has joined

  577. Syndace has joined

  578. blabla has joined

  579. blabla has left

  580. Guus has joined

  581. dwd has joined

  582. Yagiza has left

  583. Guus has left

  584. Guus has joined

  585. dwd has left

  586. Guus has left

  587. Lance has left

  588. thorsten has left

  589. thorsten has joined

  590. rion has left

  591. dwd has joined

  592. Guus has joined

  593. lovetox has left

  594. lovetox has joined

  595. dwd has left

  596. moparisthebest has joined

  597. rion has left

  598. Alex has left

  599. MattJ has joined

  600. Alex has joined

  601. matlag has left

  602. Steve Kille has joined

  603. jjrh has left

  604. Lance has joined

  605. dwd has joined

  606. Steve Kille has left

  607. tux has joined

  608. dwd has left

  609. j.r has joined

  610. peter has left

  611. j.r has joined

  612. Zash has left

  613. mightyBroccoli has left

  614. mightyBroccoli has joined

  615. lnj has left

  616. thorsten has left

  617. Ge0rG has joined

  618. thorsten has joined

  619. lnj has left

  620. Tobias has joined

  621. lumi has joined

  622. Zash has left

  623. dwd has joined

  624. j.r has joined

  625. dwd has left

  626. j.r has joined

  627. matlag has left

  628. UsL has left

  629. Nekit has joined

  630. UsL has joined

  631. jjrh has left

  632. Guus has left

  633. Guus has joined