XSF Discussion - 2018-11-14

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jonas’ 07:14:25
fun question: what happens when a remote entity sends me a stanza which is larger than my servers stanza size limit?
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Zash 07:27:57
Excellent question
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Ge0rG 07:32:03
It probably won't arrive
Ge0rG 07:32:18
Let's implement Path MTU Discovery
Ge0rG 07:33:09
I wouldn't be surprised if your server would close the stream as invalid, forcing the remote server to reconnect and to resend the stanza.
Ge0rG 07:33:26
...ad infinitum
edhelas 07:34:44
then the server should delay the s2s reconnection gradually to prevent such infinite loop to happen
jonas’ 07:34:54
Ge0rG, sure, it won’t arrive, but what happens?
jonas’ 07:35:01
right
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flow 07:40:17
jonas’, error response stanza? I don't think that this justifies a stream:error nor that current impl do that
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jonas’ 07:40:38
flow, RFC 6120 disagrees
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jonas’ 07:41:04
stanza size limit is one of the examples on when to use the policy-violation stream error (see 4.9.3.14. policy-violation)
jonas’ 07:41:19
lovely example, too: C: <message to='juliet@im.example.com' id='foo'> <body>[ ... the-emacs-manual ... ]</body> </message> S: <stream:error> <policy-violation xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-streams'/> <stanza-too-big xmlns='urn:xmpp:errors'/> </stream:error> S: </stream:stream>
jonas’ 07:41:25
> [ ... the-emacs-manual ... ]
flow 07:41:51
uhh that is indeed a gem I had missed all the years
Ge0rG 07:41:58
Yes, the emacs manual clearly is a policy violation
flow 07:42:04
but still I stand by my statement
jonas’ 07:42:08
but RFC 6120 allows both: If a connected resource or peer server sends a stanza that violates the upper limit, the receiving server MUST either return a <policy-violation/> stanza error (Section 8.3.3.12), thus allowing the sender to recover, or close the stream with a <policy-violation/> stream error (Section 4.9.3.14).
jonas’ 07:42:16
(see 13.12. Denial of Service)
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Zash 07:42:27
What do we do?
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Ge0rG 07:45:37
Crash
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moparisthebest 13:42:03
hmm I didn't realize I hadn't had xmpp spam for months until I got 5 today...
moparisthebest 13:42:13
I suppose that is in some ways good
Zash 13:42:39
Classic human, doesn't know how good you have it until it gets worse
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Link Mauve 13:43:02
moparisthebest, there is a huge IBR registration wave which started three days ago, so it’s no wonder it’s finally getting used.
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Link Mauve 13:44:30
moparisthebest, please report to their server admin, domain registrar, IP provider, in this order.
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edhelas 14:49:45
we had a nice article from a user about OMEMO published https://fr.movim.eu/?blog/debacle%40movim.eu/things-i-don-t-like-with-omemo-as-it-is-today-ogqaAM
edhelas 14:50:07
I'd be happy if some of you can reply to him about the points he mentionned
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Ge0rG 15:25:25
I agree with those points.
edhelas 15:26:36
I'm also thinking of adding xCal (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc6321/) to Pubsub items, next to the Atom elements, to be able to attach events
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Link Mauve 15:28:08
edhelas, see https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/calendaring.html maybe.
Link Mauve 15:28:20
I never managed to figure out why it hadn’t been accepted.
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Zash 15:29:42
Hmmm, http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ don't go back that far :(
edhelas 15:29:59
this is not based on the RFC 6321 (by Peter St Andre by the way) and rely on some server things
Zash 15:30:10
But I recall someone saying we shouldn't try to re-do calendaring, it's a complicated problem
edhelas 15:30:41
also it basically define a specific calendar node
edhelas 15:30:51
here I just want to append events to blog publication
Zash 15:31:08
Sticking calendar events in PubSub seems fine enough
edhelas 15:31:19
like you're doing when attaching .cal file to your emails
Link Mauve 15:31:32
Don’t you want notifications and such rather than just a dumb storage?
Link Mauve 15:31:59
Have a look at how iCal servers such as Radicale are doing it.
edhelas 15:32:02
well if you already suscribed to the node or following the JID you'll get notified by those events
Zash 15:32:21
Link Mauve: I recommend you don't if you value your sanity
Zash 15:32:31
iCal is very complicated
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Link Mauve 15:32:40
Zash, I know, I’ve worked on that in the past.
edhelas 15:32:56
I'll give it a try, just create a small piece of UI to set a date, title, location when publishing a post
Link Mauve 15:33:26
edhelas, isn’t Atom enough for this purpose?
Zash 15:33:27
I've researched it. CardDAV is acceptable, but CalDAV is complicated madness
edhelas 15:34:04
Link Mauve Atom is not made for events
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edhelas 15:36:04
rfc6321 looks fine to me
edhelas 15:36:25
and then Movim can generate .cal file out of it to import the events in the calendar applications
Zash 15:39:12
hmm http://activitystrea.ms/specs/json/schema/activity-schema.html#event
edhelas 15:40:14
maybe it's time to move to JSON
Zash 15:41:53
No
Yagiza 15:42:04
Not again!
Zash 15:42:29
Activitystreams has an Atom mapping, tho everyone's doing the JSON thing now
Zash 15:42:55
Anyways, there's prior art to look at
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flow 17:06:06
I wonder if roster annotations isn't repeating the same mistake we did with presence extensions (regarding council@)
jonas’ 17:06:15
huh?
jonas’ 17:06:23
how are presence extensions a mistake?
flow 17:07:36
There was a time where everything stuffed into presence (tune, geoloc, …), which eventually leaded to the invention of PEP and +notify
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jonas’ 17:08:39
right
jonas’ 17:09:11
what alternatives are there, though?
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jonas’ 17:09:20
make the server put it in PEP, too?
jonas’ 17:09:25
~~(instead of annotating the roster)~~ ✎
jonas’ 17:09:30
(instead of annotating the roster directly) ✏
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rion 17:10:44
one should remove presences from xmpp and replace them with pep =)
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flow 17:12:16
Possibly, maybe there are other alternatives, maybe a caps like mechanism would be sensible. I haven't given it much thought, as people already started annotating the roster
jonas’ 17:12:39
flow, only mix annotates it, right?
jonas’ 17:12:52
MIX also has some .. special requirements because they want to hide the MIXes from clients which don’t understand MIX
jonas’ 17:13:00
so I don’t think that’s a good precedent in general
flow 17:13:16
Well I wouldn't rule it out that there are other XEPs (and ProtoXEPs) burried which also it
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jonas’ 17:13:53
protoxeps don’t count
flow 17:14:19
Help me here, MIX annotating was a <mix/> element to the roster <item/>, right? How does that help with hiding anything?
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jonas’ 17:15:26
you only get it when you ask for it
flow 17:16:07
jonas’, you don't happen to have a pointer to the relevant section of the MIX spec at hand?
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jonas’ 17:17:40
(*shaking fist at mozilla for taking away the possibility to disable ctrl+q)
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jonas’ 17:19:08
flow, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0405.html#mix-roster-capability-sharing
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flow 17:20:23
jonas’, thanks :)
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flow 17:20:58
Hmm, what if another client of mine adds a MIX channel, does the roster push contain <channel/> or not?
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flow 17:21:18
Or isn't there a roster push send?
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flow 17:26:51
How about the server queries the client's disco#info before the first roster operation and decides based on the resulting disco#info how the roster is presented, and sends additional stanzas with the related roster item information for optional features…
jonas’ 17:27:40
that was discussed on-list
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flow 17:33:12
great, or not great, because it was probably dismissed
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jjrh 17:41:49
I was reading XEP-0409, not sure the problem it's trying to solve. Is the idea to allow new XEPs to eventually modernize routing for IM users and have IM-NG for legacy or specific use cases (like M2M )?
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flow 17:49:36
jjrh, the problem is that current rfc6120/6121 routing rules are unnecessarily complex, I'd say
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jjrh 17:56:27
oh the part about carbons MUST NOT be enabled confused me, but I didn't read close enough - the server will reflect the message to all my IM-NG resources so i'll see my own messages.
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Ge0rG 18:20:16
The current rules are complex and insufficient for a reality where a user has multiple clients
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Ge0rG 18:21:12
But we can't just change them because it might break current use cases outside of IM, and Carbons and MAM are not sufficient because they are just hacks on top of the bad rules.
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Ge0rG 18:24:16
Somebody gave a talk at the February 2018 Summit about what needs fixing, and IM-NG was the resulting specification
Ge0rG 18:26:06
jjrh: https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf
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jjrh 18:37:34
Cool thanks
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Ge0rG 18:54:20
flow: sorry, but I'm being evil to you.
Ge0rG 18:55:41
XEP-0359 needs to mandate that the stanza @id MUST (SHOULD) be the same as the <origin-id> @id
flow 18:57:22
hear hear
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Ge0rG 18:58:27
flow: we had that discussion many months ago, and I didn't change my mind because you didn't bring up compelling arguments. Feel free to convinve me on list or just add that one sentence.
flow 18:59:07
I would be more interested if you envision a namespace bump or not
Ge0rG 19:00:33
flow: how many implementations are there? And how many don't set the two @id fields to the same value?
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pep. 19:12:53
Holger, "Edit: Add point about OMEMO complexity and errors, thanks to Holger!" on debacle's article re OMEMO. Should we deprecate this one now? :-°
pep. 19:13:48
Also, "It does not work with local, serverless messaging. I don't use this feature a lot, but still, encryption should work with it, too." too bad, because that's actually one place where it would actually be useful
pep. 19:13:58
I guess "it works" if you already have keys
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pep. 19:14:10
Just that clients don't allow that
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