XSF Discussion - 2018-11-14

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07:14:25 jonas’ fun question: what happens when a remote entity sends me a stanza which is larger than my servers stanza size limit?
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07:27:57 Zash Excellent question
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07:32:03 Ge0rG It probably won't arrive
07:32:18 Ge0rG Let's implement Path MTU Discovery
07:33:09 Ge0rG I wouldn't be surprised if your server would close the stream as invalid, forcing the remote server to reconnect and to resend the stanza.
07:33:26 Ge0rG ...ad infinitum
07:34:44 edhelas then the server should delay the s2s reconnection gradually to prevent such infinite loop to happen
07:34:54 jonas’ Ge0rG, sure, it won’t arrive, but what happens?
07:35:01 jonas’ right
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07:40:17 flow jonas’, error response stanza? I don't think that this justifies a stream:error nor that current impl do that
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07:40:38 jonas’ flow, RFC 6120 disagrees
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07:41:04 jonas’ stanza size limit is one of the examples on when to use the policy-violation stream error (see 4.9.3.14. policy-violation)
07:41:19 jonas’ lovely example, too: C: <message to='juliet@im.example.com' id='foo'> <body>[ ... the-emacs-manual ... ]</body> </message> S: <stream:error> <policy-violation xmlns='urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-streams'/> <stanza-too-big xmlns='urn:xmpp:errors'/> </stream:error> S: </stream:stream>
07:41:25 jonas’ > [ ... the-emacs-manual ... ]
07:41:51 flow uhh that is indeed a gem I had missed all the years
07:41:58 Ge0rG Yes, the emacs manual clearly is a policy violation
07:42:04 flow but still I stand by my statement
07:42:08 jonas’ but RFC 6120 allows both: If a connected resource or peer server sends a stanza that violates the upper limit, the receiving server MUST either return a <policy-violation/> stanza error (Section 8.3.3.12), thus allowing the sender to recover, or close the stream with a <policy-violation/> stream error (Section 4.9.3.14).
07:42:16 jonas’ (see 13.12. Denial of Service)
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07:42:27 Zash What do we do?
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07:45:37 Ge0rG Crash
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13:42:03 moparisthebest hmm I didn't realize I hadn't had xmpp spam for months until I got 5 today...
13:42:13 moparisthebest I suppose that is in some ways good
13:42:39 Zash Classic human, doesn't know how good you have it until it gets worse
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13:43:02 Link Mauve moparisthebest, there is a huge IBR registration wave which started three days ago, so it’s no wonder it’s finally getting used.
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13:44:30 Link Mauve moparisthebest, please report to their server admin, domain registrar, IP provider, in this order.
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14:49:45 edhelas we had a nice article from a user about OMEMO published https://fr.movim.eu/?blog/debacle%40movim.eu/things-i-don-t-like-with-omemo-as-it-is-today-ogqaAM
14:50:07 edhelas I'd be happy if some of you can reply to him about the points he mentionned
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15:25:25 Ge0rG I agree with those points.
15:26:36 edhelas I'm also thinking of adding xCal (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc6321/) to Pubsub items, next to the Atom elements, to be able to attach events
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15:28:08 Link Mauve edhelas, see https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/calendaring.html maybe.
15:28:20 Link Mauve I never managed to figure out why it hadn’t been accepted.
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15:29:42 Zash Hmmm, http://logs.xmpp.org/council/ don't go back that far :(
15:29:59 edhelas this is not based on the RFC 6321 (by Peter St Andre by the way) and rely on some server things
15:30:10 Zash But I recall someone saying we shouldn't try to re-do calendaring, it's a complicated problem
15:30:41 edhelas also it basically define a specific calendar node
15:30:51 edhelas here I just want to append events to blog publication
15:31:08 Zash Sticking calendar events in PubSub seems fine enough
15:31:19 edhelas like you're doing when attaching .cal file to your emails
15:31:32 Link Mauve Don’t you want notifications and such rather than just a dumb storage?
15:31:59 Link Mauve Have a look at how iCal servers such as Radicale are doing it.
15:32:02 edhelas well if you already suscribed to the node or following the JID you'll get notified by those events
15:32:21 Zash Link Mauve: I recommend you don't if you value your sanity
15:32:31 Zash iCal is very complicated
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15:32:40 Link Mauve Zash, I know, I’ve worked on that in the past.
15:32:56 edhelas I'll give it a try, just create a small piece of UI to set a date, title, location when publishing a post
15:33:26 Link Mauve edhelas, isn’t Atom enough for this purpose?
15:33:27 Zash I've researched it. CardDAV is acceptable, but CalDAV is complicated madness
15:34:04 edhelas Link Mauve Atom is not made for events
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15:36:04 edhelas rfc6321 looks fine to me
15:36:25 edhelas and then Movim can generate .cal file out of it to import the events in the calendar applications
15:39:12 Zash hmm http://activitystrea.ms/specs/json/schema/activity-schema.html#event
15:40:14 edhelas maybe it's time to move to JSON
15:41:53 Zash No
15:42:04 Yagiza Not again!
15:42:29 Zash Activitystreams has an Atom mapping, tho everyone's doing the JSON thing now
15:42:55 Zash Anyways, there's prior art to look at
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17:06:06 flow I wonder if roster annotations isn't repeating the same mistake we did with presence extensions (regarding council@)
17:06:15 jonas’ huh?
17:06:23 jonas’ how are presence extensions a mistake?
17:07:36 flow There was a time where everything stuffed into presence (tune, geoloc, …), which eventually leaded to the invention of PEP and +notify
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17:08:39 jonas’ right
17:09:11 jonas’ what alternatives are there, though?
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17:09:20 jonas’ make the server put it in PEP, too?
17:09:25 jonas’ ~~(instead of annotating the roster)~~ ✎
17:09:30 jonas’ (instead of annotating the roster directly) ✏
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17:10:44 rion one should remove presences from xmpp and replace them with pep =)
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17:12:16 flow Possibly, maybe there are other alternatives, maybe a caps like mechanism would be sensible. I haven't given it much thought, as people already started annotating the roster
17:12:39 jonas’ flow, only mix annotates it, right?
17:12:52 jonas’ MIX also has some .. special requirements because they want to hide the MIXes from clients which don’t understand MIX
17:13:00 jonas’ so I don’t think that’s a good precedent in general
17:13:16 flow Well I wouldn't rule it out that there are other XEPs (and ProtoXEPs) burried which also it
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17:13:53 jonas’ protoxeps don’t count
17:14:19 flow Help me here, MIX annotating was a <mix/> element to the roster <item/>, right? How does that help with hiding anything?
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17:15:26 jonas’ you only get it when you ask for it
17:16:07 flow jonas’, you don't happen to have a pointer to the relevant section of the MIX spec at hand?
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17:17:40 jonas’ (*shaking fist at mozilla for taking away the possibility to disable ctrl+q)
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17:19:08 jonas’ flow, https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0405.html#mix-roster-capability-sharing
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17:20:23 flow jonas’, thanks :)
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17:20:58 flow Hmm, what if another client of mine adds a MIX channel, does the roster push contain <channel/> or not?
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17:21:18 flow Or isn't there a roster push send?
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17:26:51 flow How about the server queries the client's disco#info before the first roster operation and decides based on the resulting disco#info how the roster is presented, and sends additional stanzas with the related roster item information for optional features…
17:27:40 jonas’ that was discussed on-list
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17:33:12 flow great, or not great, because it was probably dismissed
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17:41:49 jjrh I was reading XEP-0409, not sure the problem it's trying to solve. Is the idea to allow new XEPs to eventually modernize routing for IM users and have IM-NG for legacy or specific use cases (like M2M )?
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17:49:36 flow jjrh, the problem is that current rfc6120/6121 routing rules are unnecessarily complex, I'd say
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17:56:27 jjrh oh the part about carbons MUST NOT be enabled confused me, but I didn't read close enough - the server will reflect the message to all my IM-NG resources so i'll see my own messages.
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18:20:16 Ge0rG The current rules are complex and insufficient for a reality where a user has multiple clients
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18:21:12 Ge0rG But we can't just change them because it might break current use cases outside of IM, and Carbons and MAM are not sufficient because they are just hacks on top of the bad rules.
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18:24:16 Ge0rG Somebody gave a talk at the February 2018 Summit about what needs fixing, and IM-NG was the resulting specification
18:26:06 Ge0rG jjrh: https://op-co.de/tmp/whats-wrong-with-xmpp-2017.pdf
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18:37:34 jjrh Cool thanks
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18:54:20 Ge0rG flow: sorry, but I'm being evil to you.
18:55:41 Ge0rG XEP-0359 needs to mandate that the stanza @id MUST (SHOULD) be the same as the <origin-id> @id
18:57:22 flow hear hear
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18:58:27 Ge0rG flow: we had that discussion many months ago, and I didn't change my mind because you didn't bring up compelling arguments. Feel free to convinve me on list or just add that one sentence.
18:59:07 flow I would be more interested if you envision a namespace bump or not
19:00:33 Ge0rG flow: how many implementations are there? And how many don't set the two @id fields to the same value?
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19:12:53 pep. Holger, "Edit: Add point about OMEMO complexity and errors, thanks to Holger!" on debacle's article re OMEMO. Should we deprecate this one now? :-°
19:13:48 pep. Also, "It does not work with local, serverless messaging. I don't use this feature a lot, but still, encryption should work with it, too." too bad, because that's actually one place where it would actually be useful
19:13:58 pep. I guess "it works" if you already have keys
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19:14:10 pep. Just that clients don't allow that
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