XSF Discussion - 2018-11-20

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  100. jonas’ Ge0rG, what is that list of XEPs? anything useful for the compliance suites?
  101. Ge0rG jonas’: you mean the "relevant for mobile" list? I think it's covered by the suite already, plus 0184
  102. jonas’ good
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  105. daniel I wouldn't hold my breath for chatty though
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  113. Ge0rG daniel: because of libpurple?
  114. daniel Just by extrapolating the progress of the last four month
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  125. Ge0rG daniel: so because of libpurple.
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  132. Ge0rG daniel: are you missing XEPs from Compliance Suite 2019?
  133. daniel Ge0rG: I don't recall anything coming up this year
  134. daniel Maybe the bookmark conversion thing?
  135. Ge0rG avatar something-something?
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  141. jonas’ the conversion XEPs would indeed be interesting to have
  142. pep. I was also thinking about bookmarks conversion
  143. pep. Do the xeps that go in there need to be draft or sth?
  144. jonas’ isn’t even MIX in there?
  145. pep. When nobody implements it and it's not exactly clear what the benefits are over existing protocols?
  146. jonas’ ah, no, it’s just an informational footnote that MIX might be coming
  147. lovetox are you talking about server implementing it or client?
  148. lovetox because client its just "dont sync pep and private storage"
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  150. daniel A client should Stil know about that
  151. jonas’ itym: "its just 'dont sync pep and private storage, but only if the server exposes the feature, otherwise you’re as doomed as ever'"
  152. daniel So even it's not a lot of work
  153. lovetox yes jonas, i might implement it today
  154. jonas’ so yeah, clients need to know about it
  155. jonas’ and even if only to relieve the developers from the nightmares they get when thinking about the mess that synchronization is
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  159. Guus I'm toying with an idea, for to XSF to offer up a prize for development of the best/first/somehow-to-be-qualified new (client?) XMPP software, X-Prize style. My primary motivation is to facilitate the development of new, feature complete / representable software for things that are currently missing from the XMPP eco-system. A decent, free IOS client, perhaps? What do you guys think?
  160. edhelas I like the idea :)
  161. edhelas but maybe put a couple of categories, like the Oscars, best UX, best security, best XMPP support...
  162. Guus I don't have a concrete plan for the shape or form, so yeah, that's all possible.
  163. Guus That said: we have limited resources, so for the incentive to be interesting enough, we might not want to have to split things up to much.
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  165. edhelas yeah just a few of them, it could be a simple vote and we design a some logos that the winner project can put on their README :D
  166. lovetox you have to be prepared that no client reaches the goal, that would be a bit embarasing then
  167. edhelas "Best XMPP Client of 2018"
  168. Ge0rG jonas’ [10:22]: > and even if only to relieve the developers from the nightmares they get when thinking about the mess that synchronization is _99 issues with sync in the PEP // 99 issues with sync // One bug gets squashed // 98 issues with sync in the PEP_
  169. Seve I would not split if possible, indeed. If it must be a client, I would say something missing. Either features missing in the modern times or a client for a platform with no clients/up-to-date clients
  170. Ge0rG Guus: that calls for a Jabber Software Foundation
  171. Guus You're miscounting, Ge0rG. Last number should be '100'...
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  173. Guus (or more)
  174. Guus lovetox: the challenge need not be time-restricted. If no client reaches the goal, the effort will fizzle out over time, without much harm done.
  175. Guus also, I'm willing to take that chance.
  176. jonas’ Guus, this will be very frustrating for developers who simply cannot invest the time without reliable source of income from the xmpp development :/
  177. Guus Ge0rG: maybe. I don't yet care at this point. 🙂
  178. Guus jonas' - that's one of my concerns - I'd not like to dissuade others.
  179. Ge0rG I'm pretty sure you won't be allowed to do that within the XSF
  180. Guus but, on the other side: the XMPP community would benefit more from having a limited amount of pretty good clients, than a large amount of very shitty ones...
  181. Ge0rG Guus: that's absolutely true
  182. Guus Ge0rG: at this time, I'm first trying to figure out if the idea itself is viable. We can worry about the appropriate vehicle later.
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  184. jonas’ next worry: client developers will cut corners to achieve the requested milestone
  185. jonas’ while this might produce a reasonable product *at the time*, it may lead to horrible, unmaintainable code which leads the client into a dead end (at least for a while)
  186. edhelas if (xsfCheck) behaveFaster();
  187. jonas’ hah
  188. jonas’ #volkswagen
  189. edhelas :D
  190. jonas’ edhelas, are you using https://github.com/auchenberg/volkswagen in movim yet?
  191. edhelas always
  192. Guus jonas' that's valid too. On the one hand, we'd have to come up with criteria that prevent the worst of this. That will be tricky to do, but should be doable
  193. jonas’ edhelas, are you using https://github.com/auchenberg/volkswagen in movim yet?
  194. jonas’ edhelas, are you using https://github.com/hmlb/phpunit-vw in movim yet?
  195. Guus But also, I'm now at a point where I'd love to have a good client on IOS, even if it's unmaintainable and will be shitty in a couple of years time.
  196. Kev Yeah, I'd love to get Swift shipped properly.
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  200. Guus Kev: what's keeping you?
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  202. Kev Cycles.
  203. jonas’ Kev, what does blender have to do with that?
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  205. jonas’ Guus, hm, so a prize for an iOS client?
  206. Guus maybe?
  207. jonas’ that indeed sounds interesting, because that’s the worst platform at the moment
  208. Guus just floating an idea here 🙂
  209. jonas’ and there’s not too much competition
  210. jonas’ so less potential for frustration
  211. jonas’ I’d be totally in favour of that, although that means that my chances from collecting the prize go from 1% to 0% :)
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  213. Ge0rG Guus: have you had a look at Monal recently?
  214. Guus No
  215. Ge0rG Guus: you should. MUC and OMEMO aren't there yet, but there is significant progress and Anu is very responsive to feedback
  216. jonas’ a working XMPP client on iOS probably needs voice chat though
  217. jonas’ to get privileges for push
  218. jonas’ to be finally usable
  219. Guus 👍
  220. Kev A decent iOS client needs more thinking than it seems.
  221. Ge0rG I'm not sure it's really needed if we properly tackle xmpp push
  222. jonas’ so… maybe that should be the goal? but then again, the number you’d have to put on the table to have a freelancer implement audio chat from scratch is .. high
  223. Kev We need to get Push properly sorted for it.
  224. jonas’ Ge0rG, is it? my understanding was that push is unreliable unless you get a voip whitelist
  225. jonas’ Ge0rG, is it? my understanding was that push is unreliable unless you get a voip whitelist mark or whatever
  226. jonas’ but I’m not familiar with iOS development
  227. Kev The VOIP thing was so that you could leave yourself running in the background to defeat TCP being killed when you're backgrounded.
  228. Ge0rG Maybe Monal has that.
  229. jonas’ ah, right
  230. jonas’ that would be better than push, indeed
  231. Kev Not really, I think.
  232. jonas’ but, so, not a requirement
  233. jonas’ Kev, why?
  234. Kev Push and quick resync is the better solution. But we don't have a good resync solution at the moment.
  235. jonas’ except that for push, you need to go through a third-party service
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  239. daniel I think you can create a decent iOS client without VoIP
  240. daniel Just by using push properly
  241. jonas’ daniel, why has nobody managed to do that yet, though?
  242. Ge0rG Except Push was -1ed
  243. Ge0rG jonas’: lack of developer resources?
  244. jonas’ Ge0rG, hm. "how hard can it be?"
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  246. Guus jonas' : wanna win a prize? 🙂
  247. daniel > daniel, why has nobody managed to do that yet, though? Because people don't seem to know how I guess
  248. jonas’ Guus, no, I’m not touching iOS
  249. Ge0rG jonas’: ChatSecure has a bug where it duplicates incoming messages, and it's unfixed for half a year now already
  250. jonas’ daniel, do *you* know h ow?
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  252. daniel Or don't have enough time to get familiar with it
  253. jonas’ Ge0rG, yes, but that seems harder than "just" configuring your push server to send the right stuff at the right time
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  255. Kev I had a fairly decent picture of what was needed, but it was less trivial than it sounds.
  256. daniel > daniel, do *you* know h ow? I know how I would do it yes
  257. Kev Unless I'm just too stupid to see the simple solution.
  258. daniel No it's not trivial
  259. jonas’ daniel, maybe get in touch with $iOSClientDeveloper and get it sorted then?
  260. jonas’ okay
  261. Guus Kev, did you document that?
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  263. jonas’ I’ll shut up then :)
  264. Kev You can get by with just Push, but to get the really good experience you also need much faster resyncs than we can currently do.
  265. Kev Guus: There are many aspects to getting this right, including MAM, MIX, Push and Routing2.
  266. Kev So yes, I've been trying to document the various needed moving parts.
  267. Guus Kev: that's why I hoped for existing documentation 🙂
  268. daniel I think Chris kinda knows it too. But since it wasn't build into chatsecure it requires heavy refactoring
  269. daniel And you probably don't want to use a traditional xmpp library
  270. Ge0rG daniel: what about just writing the magic into the XEP?
  271. Kev The thing that I would get a lot of hate for suggesting is that I think there would be value in ... XMPP over HTTP.
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  273. Ge0rG Kev: different from BOSH?
  274. Kev As a quick resync mechanism, so that we could poll in the background.
  275. daniel Well I know how to start and I'm fairly confident I could figure out the missing pieces as I go. But it's not that I could write down a step by step how to
  276. Kev Ge0rG: Yes, just for polling.
  277. Ge0rG Kev: you need cookies / tokens then
  278. Kev Yes.
  279. Ge0rG Kev: also not sure what problem that'll solve, apart from paranoid firewalls
  280. daniel And nobody would then implement it so it would be a wasted effort anyway
  281. Guus Does anyone particularly dislike the idea to have some kind of prize offered up for a good* iOS client?
  282. Kev Ge0rG: It'd let you poll in the background when receiving a bodyless push to just find the content of that message so you could display a notification.
  283. Kev Guus: I do, personally. I think the XSF could better spend its money.
  284. Kev Of which it doesn't have muc.
  285. Kev Of which it doesn't have much.
  286. Guus Kev: on what? I'd love to spend money.
  287. daniel > Ge0rG: It'd let you poll in the background when receiving a bodyless push to just find the content of that message so you could display a notification. You have to be fast and recover all state from disk
  288. Ge0rG Kev: how's that different from an XMPP connection?
  289. daniel But that's it basically
  290. Kev daniel: I don't think you need to recover anything at all, actually.
  291. Kev You could do the full resync once the client is foregrounded again.
  292. Kev Of course, this is much easier if you're willing to have your message content go over Push.
  293. Kev But if you're not, you need some mechanism that can wake the client, have it fetch the message that needs displaying, fetch it, display it, and go back to sleep again without the OS getting angry with you.
  294. daniel Right. Yes I see that your approach is valid as well. But I think one has enough time to do a regular sm catchup if we get fast resume
  295. Ge0rG Kev: that sounds like you are trying to get rid of the cruft of XMPP session setup by replacing XMPP with HTTP, instead of replacing the session setup
  296. daniel Aka instant stream resumption and the like
  297. Kev I wouldn't even try, I think. To do it over XMPP I'd just have fast reconnect, not fast resume, and then just poll that one item over MAM.
  298. Kev And leave the fast resume for when the client is woken up by the user.
  299. jonas’ Kev, that doesn’t sound too bad
  300. Kev Ge0rG: Valid point, see above.
  301. jonas’ soo… XMPP-over-TLS, SASL2+bind2 to do as much as possible in as few as possible roundtrips, query MAM, close connection?
  302. jonas’ (or try to keep connection open if possible)
  303. Kev Something like that, yeah.
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  305. daniel Yeah I mean in any case it can be done
  306. Ge0rG &
  307. jonas’ fg
  308. daniel It's just that the developer has to have in depth knowledge of xmpp and design the client from scratch to do this
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  310. Ge0rG jonas’: -EPERM
  311. Kev I'm not sure the client needs designing from scratch (I don't think we'd need to redesign Swift to do this, although it's a chunk of work), but there are certainly designs that would make it harder.
  312. Kev Ge0rG: You say that, but it clearly worked :D
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  317. daniel Sure. Depends on the client of course. Maybe swiften was just designed very well
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  325. Holger Kev: > The VOIP thing was so that you could leave yourself running in the background to defeat TCP being killed when you're backgrounded. Yes that's how it worked with past iOS versions, AFAIK there's no way to do get that behavior these days. Now you need the VoIP label to get silent notifications, i.e. to have your app woken up rather than notifying the user without waking the app.
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  327. Kev I stand corrected.
  328. Holger Kev: > let you poll in the background when receiving a bodyless push You'd still need that VoIP flag to get that 'bodyless push' in the first place. And how does HTTP vs. XMPP help after being woken up?
  329. Kev Keep reading down :)
  330. Holger I did.
  331. Kev It doesn't, you could do the same over XMPP by having a non-session stream making a MAM request.
  332. Holger Ah ok.
  333. Kev As long as you had XMPP-over-TLS, and immediate setup instead of SASL.
  334. Holger didn't grasp that you were still tackling the same point here.
  335. Holger Right.
  336. Holger daniel: > I think you can create a decent iOS client without VoIP I dunno how you'd avoid "New message" notifications though.
  337. Kev Presumably by sending the content in the push notif, which some people would hate, and others would be quite happy with.
  338. jonas’ you can’t do that with OMEMO
  339. Holger With a smarter push mechanism we could avoid sending multiple of those, and once the client *is* woken it can attempt to replace that notification (like ChatSecure already does), but that's not reliable.
  340. Holger Kev: Right.
  341. Kev jonas’: OMEMO is why we can't have nice things :)
  342. jonas’ no, broken mobile OSes are why we can’t have nice things (in this case)
  343. Holger Yes it would be nice if we could offer a knob to optionally include message contents.
  344. Kev I think the "can't send bodyless push" thing might be broken (didn't know about that), but otherwise the whole "suspect in background" thing seems quite sensible to me (also the way Android seems to be going).
  345. daniel > daniel: > I dunno how you'd avoid "New message" notifications though. You can replace the content of a message
  346. daniel You get the new message push, catch up with the real one and then replace it
  347. daniel But yes you need to make the push a bit smarter
  348. daniel But that's not rocket science
  349. Holger Kev: Yes, the big difference so far is that Android doesn't restrict silent notifications. But who knows where they're going.
  350. Kev s/suspect/suspend/, obviously.
  351. Holger daniel: Right, that's what ChatSecure is doing. But that means in 86,9% of all cases, users see a "new message!" notification.
  352. Kev So what's WhatsApp doing here - registering as a VOIP app so it can receive push notifs?
  353. daniel I think the go the replacing route. They just don't have false positives
  354. Holger daniel: The ChatSecure app server generates both a 'New message' notification *and* a 'silent' notification. The latter one is unreliable, but *if* it's delivered, the "catch up and replace" thing is attempted. If it's not, there's no way to do that.
  355. Holger Kev, daniel: I would've assumed silent VoIP notifications.
  356. Holger But I dunno.
  357. daniel But the new message ones are reliable as well, no?
  358. Kev https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/setting_up_a_remote_notification_server/pushing_updates_to_your_app_silently Doesn't say anything about needing to be a VOIP app, AFAICT.
  359. Holger Would be interesting to know what e.g. Signal did before they had VoIP support.
  360. Holger daniel: The 'New message' ones are reliable.
  361. Holger Kev: I'll look it up, it was documented somewhere (and it clearly works that way).
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  363. daniel So figure out when a notification should actually trigger a notification, send a reliable one with a dummy body and the modify it to show the actual content
  364. daniel I don't see the problem with that
  365. daniel You get 30s to modify it https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/modifying_content_in_newly_delivered_notifications
  366. daniel This only depends on the app server to figure that and then on the client to do the catchup in 30s
  367. daniel That seems achievable
  368. Kev s/catchup/message discovery/
  369. Kev You might do message discovery with catchup, you might employ a different mechanism.
  370. daniel What ever ☺️
  371. daniel What ever meachism you deem fit to fetch a specific message within 30s
  372. Kev Right.
  373. Holger Ahh, right, "Service App Extension". That's a new thing I think, IIRC Chris mentioned that.
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  375. Holger That would probably do the trick indeed.
  376. Kev Ok, I've spent a few minutes reading (more than I should, probably), and from what I can tell VOIP pushes will make things better because they're high priority pushes, but shouldn't be necessary for this to work.
  377. Holger Yes yes, I forgot about that thing. Depends on a recent iOS version I think, but apart from that it's probably fine.
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  379. daniel I mean 30s is actually *a lot *
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  381. daniel I'd be worried if we only had single digit seconds
  382. daniel I mean obviously my users hate metrics and an app 'calling home'. But it'd be fun to get some numbers on the median resume and catch up time in Conversations
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  399. pep. Guus, re prices to give to clients, I agree with jonas’ that this will probably discourage others that don't have enough time to allocate. But I also agree that it would be nice to have some kind of incentive
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  403. Guus jonas', you here?
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  407. jonas’ kindof
  408. jonas’ Guus, what’s up?
  409. Guus mind popping over to the iteam muc?
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  482. Guus Anyone in here that didn't vote yet? 🙂
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  484. Guus if so: you're now looking at your IM-client. You might as well pop off a message to memberbot.
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  488. MattJ scurries
  489. MattJ Thanks for the reminder
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  493. Link Mauve Thanks, I just did it!
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  563. Guus jonas’ kindly commit that missing file 🙂
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  580. jonas’ Guus, did
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  589. Syndace daniel, Dino merged our pr for the 12 bytes IV already, nice ^^
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  607. daniel Yes I saw that
  608. daniel Now we need to do something about chatsecure
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  761. moparisthebest Guus: it seems like whatever prize the xsf could offer wouldn't be large enough to pay for development, so you still need a dedicated dev who wants it for themselves
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  764. moparisthebest And any Dev like that doesn't want to run a crippled phone OS when they can run Android...
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  766. moparisthebest Hey if Android keeps getting worse though...
  767. Guus moparisthebest: prize money is an incentive, but not paying for all of the development.
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  781. Zash The real prize is the bragging rights for your marketing department if you win
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  793. moparisthebest I think there are basically 2 types of devs that would do it
  794. moparisthebest One is with funding and a marketing plan, and it's not gonna be open, line WhatsApp etc
  795. moparisthebest Other is Dev that wants to scratch their own itch, with capability, and using an iPhone full time
  796. moparisthebest I don't think that second one exists
  797. MattJ It shouldn't be overlooked that we have at least two iOS clients already
  798. MattJ It's not necessarily a requirement to write a new one from scratch
  799. MattJ and therefore it may be feasible to fund shorter specific projects on top of existing iOS clients
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  801. moparisthebest Yea that seems more feasible
  802. Ge0rG https://op-co.de/tmp/xep-0184.html#format - the "Note:" below example 4. I think I need to tune the wording some more.
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  805. Ge0rG Maybe it's time to do some woodwork instead of writing XEPs.
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  811. daniel If you started building a bicycle you might not be able to fix it into a car
  812. daniel Especially not as a third party
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  815. SamWhited In that case, I feel like xmpp is a bicycle car hybrid where one person keeps taking off bike parts and putting car parts on and one person is doing the opposite and others are just randomly bolting airplane parts on wherever they'll fit.
  816. SamWhited (I missed most context there, but if I interpreted the analogy correctly my point is that I'm starting to think we need a specific mission and set of use cases)
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  821. daniel SamWhited: I was talking about clients. I think there is some truth to what you are saying in regards to the protocol but I think it's more severe when it comes to specific clients
  822. daniel A multi use protocol is not an unfixable problem imho
  823. daniel Maybe a hard one
  824. SamWhited ah yah, that applies even better to most clients, assume I was talking about that too
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  870. jonas’ https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/issues/3125#issuecomment-440398906
  871. jonas’ there is a need for a simple way to refer to another message
  872. jonas’ references doesn’t have that use-case
  873. jonas’ can we get that specified quickly?
  874. jonas’ or alternatively rename Message Attaching, because it’s not being used for attaching apparently
  875. Zash What uses it and for what then?
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  877. jonas’ Zash, see that link please
  878. Zash What, read what I'm commenting on?! Unpossible!
  879. Zash Mkay
  880. Zash Don't make me submit an <in-reply-to/>
  881. Zash or "How to blockchain using thread/@parent"
  882. lovetox im not sure about this for quotation
  883. lovetox but what it actually solves nicely is the case where i want to convey a url with a message
  884. lovetox but i want to encrypt it
  885. lovetox for oob and the sorts, full stanza encryption is necessary
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  887. lovetox this would solve this nicely for omemo
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  889. pep. Why do we have to fix everything else when we can fix omemo :(
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  894. lovetox daniel said last time, in the last sprint they furhter developed the future omemo version
  895. lovetox so i guess it will happen sometime
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  897. pep. When it's already too late because the other things around it have been changed?
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  899. lovetox its never too late for full stanza encryption
  900. lovetox also it about a different wireformat to evolve from signal
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  902. pep. Yeah there's been discussions around that this weekend as well
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  912. pep. "Furthermore, even if 3.4 covered our use case other use cases outside our scope would still have to be implemented in order to be compliant with the whole XEP.", I guess people are also often confused by this.
  913. pep. How many people say they support MUC or Pubsub entirely :)
  914. pep. How many people say they support MUC or Pubsub :)
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  926. Ge0rG lovetox [20:48]: > its never too late for full stanza encryption Nobody expects the Full Stanza Encryption!
  927. Ge0rG Zash [20:35]: > Don't make me submit an <in-reply-to/> And then rewrite Receipts and LMC on top of it!
  928. Ge0rG See discussion in jdev@ today
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  935. goffi Do you know this https://omemo.im/ ? The website looks like an aggregation of publicly available informations, and it claims to be open source but I don't see any source code. Smells like malicious app
  936. lovetox its not malicious
  937. lovetox it seems to link for downloads directly to other projects
  938. lovetox like gajim, and zom
  939. Zash Except the Android one
  940. lovetox yes
  941. lovetox thats a bit weird
  942. Zash It links to Conversations in the footer
  943. lovetox but i bet its conversations
  944. lovetox relabeld
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  946. lovetox but yeah, i dont know that will help the cause
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  952. goffi also here https://www.reddit.com/r/xmpp/comments/9y3ib4/can_you_use_omemo_encryption_across_two_different/ "See omemo.im and test their server and app across yours." by somebody nicknames "omemo82", it doesn't smells good to me
  953. goffi nicknames
  954. goffi nickamed*
  955. goffi arg
  956. goffi nicknamed*
  957. Zash Search for omemo.im on github turns up https://github.com/froghorn82/omemo.im
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  965. vanitasvitae THe commit history is... interesting 😀
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  970. lovetox dont understand why people dont try to do something productive
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  974. Zash Procrastinating makes the world go round ... later.
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