XSF Discussion - 2018-11-20


  1. lskdjf has joined

  2. lskdjf has left

  3. lumi has left

  4. jjrh has left

  5. jjrh has left

  6. UsL has left

  7. UsL has joined

  8. lskdjf has joined

  9. ta has left

  10. ta has joined

  11. matlag has left

  12. matlag has joined

  13. jjrh has left

  14. efrit has joined

  15. moparisthebest has left

  16. moparisthebest has joined

  17. jjrh has left

  18. lorddavidiii has left

  19. jjrh has left

  20. lskdjf has left

  21. efrit has left

  22. vinx55 has joined

  23. lskdjf has left

  24. lskdjf has left

  25. l has left

  26. l has joined

  27. ta has left

  28. ta has joined

  29. j.r has joined

  30. vinx55 has left

  31. j.r has joined

  32. lorddavidiii has joined

  33. andrey.g has left

  34. Nekit has joined

  35. andrey.g has joined

  36. j.r has joined

  37. j.r has joined

  38. SamWhited has left

  39. Yagiza has joined

  40. moparisthebest has left

  41. j.r has joined

  42. j.r has joined

  43. ta has left

  44. ta has joined

  45. j.r has joined

  46. j.r has joined

  47. waqas has left

  48. j.r has left

  49. j.r has joined

  50. j.r has left

  51. j.r has joined

  52. Str4tocaster has joined

  53. j.r has joined

  54. Zash has joined

  55. Zash has left

  56. mimi89999 has left

  57. j.r has joined

  58. Nekit has left

  59. Nekit has joined

  60. Zash has joined

  61. Zash has left

  62. Zash has joined

  63. Zash has left

  64. Zash has joined

  65. Zash has left

  66. Zash has joined

  67. Zash has left

  68. j.r has joined

  69. j.r has joined

  70. moparisthebest has left

  71. Zash has joined

  72. Str4tocaster has left

  73. Str4tocaster has joined

  74. !xsf_martin has joined

  75. Str4tocaster has left

  76. Str4tocaster has joined

  77. alacer has joined

  78. j.r has joined

  79. j.r has joined

  80. blabla has joined

  81. alacer has left

  82. alacer has joined

  83. labdsf has left

  84. j.r has joined

  85. alacer has left

  86. j.r has joined

  87. lumi has joined

  88. guusdk has left

  89. guusdk has joined

  90. lorddavidiii has left

  91. lumi has left

  92. andy has joined

  93. daniel has left

  94. lorddavidiii has joined

  95. !xsf_martin has left

  96. Str4tocaster has left

  97. Str4tocaster has joined

  98. daniel has joined

  99. vinx55 has joined

  100. jonas’

    Ge0rG, what is that list of XEPs? anything useful for the compliance suites?

  101. Ge0rG

    jonas’: you mean the "relevant for mobile" list? I think it's covered by the suite already, plus 0184

  102. jonas’

    good

  103. lorddavidiii has left

  104. lorddavidiii has joined

  105. daniel

    I wouldn't hold my breath for chatty though

  106. Nekit has left

  107. Nekit has joined

  108. vinx55 has left

  109. Steve Kille has left

  110. Steve Kille has left

  111. blabla has left

  112. Steve Kille has joined

  113. Ge0rG

    daniel: because of libpurple?

  114. daniel

    Just by extrapolating the progress of the last four month

  115. lorddavidiii has left

  116. vaulor has joined

  117. lorddavidiii has joined

  118. labdsf has joined

  119. Yagiza has left

  120. Alex has joined

  121. UsL has left

  122. UsL has joined

  123. goffi has joined

  124. Zash has left

  125. Ge0rG

    daniel: so because of libpurple.

  126. marc has joined

  127. ThibG has joined

  128. lovetox has joined

  129. lovetox has left

  130. lovetox has joined

  131. ThibG has joined

  132. Ge0rG

    daniel: are you missing XEPs from Compliance Suite 2019?

  133. daniel

    Ge0rG: I don't recall anything coming up this year

  134. daniel

    Maybe the bookmark conversion thing?

  135. Ge0rG

    avatar something-something?

  136. Alex has left

  137. Alex has joined

  138. vaulor has joined

  139. blabla has joined

  140. rion has left

  141. jonas’

    the conversion XEPs would indeed be interesting to have

  142. pep.

    I was also thinking about bookmarks conversion

  143. pep.

    Do the xeps that go in there need to be draft or sth?

  144. jonas’

    isn’t even MIX in there?

  145. pep.

    When nobody implements it and it's not exactly clear what the benefits are over existing protocols?

  146. jonas’

    ah, no, it’s just an informational footnote that MIX might be coming

  147. lovetox

    are you talking about server implementing it or client?

  148. lovetox

    because client its just "dont sync pep and private storage"

  149. Tobias has joined

  150. daniel

    A client should Stil know about that

  151. jonas’

    itym: "its just 'dont sync pep and private storage, but only if the server exposes the feature, otherwise you’re as doomed as ever'"

  152. daniel

    So even it's not a lot of work

  153. lovetox

    yes jonas, i might implement it today

  154. jonas’

    so yeah, clients need to know about it

  155. jonas’

    and even if only to relieve the developers from the nightmares they get when thinking about the mess that synchronization is

  156. Yagiza has joined

  157. Alex has left

  158. Alex has joined

  159. Guus

    I'm toying with an idea, for to XSF to offer up a prize for development of the best/first/somehow-to-be-qualified new (client?) XMPP software, X-Prize style. My primary motivation is to facilitate the development of new, feature complete / representable software for things that are currently missing from the XMPP eco-system. A decent, free IOS client, perhaps? What do you guys think?

  160. edhelas

    I like the idea :)

  161. edhelas

    but maybe put a couple of categories, like the Oscars, best UX, best security, best XMPP support...

  162. Guus

    I don't have a concrete plan for the shape or form, so yeah, that's all possible.

  163. Guus

    That said: we have limited resources, so for the incentive to be interesting enough, we might not want to have to split things up to much.

  164. Yagiza has left

  165. edhelas

    yeah just a few of them, it could be a simple vote and we design a some logos that the winner project can put on their README :D

  166. lovetox

    you have to be prepared that no client reaches the goal, that would be a bit embarasing then

  167. edhelas

    "Best XMPP Client of 2018"

  168. Ge0rG

    jonas’ [10:22]: > and even if only to relieve the developers from the nightmares they get when thinking about the mess that synchronization is _99 issues with sync in the PEP // 99 issues with sync // One bug gets squashed // 98 issues with sync in the PEP_

  169. Seve

    I would not split if possible, indeed. If it must be a client, I would say something missing. Either features missing in the modern times or a client for a platform with no clients/up-to-date clients

  170. Ge0rG

    Guus: that calls for a Jabber Software Foundation

  171. Guus

    You're miscounting, Ge0rG. Last number should be '100'...

  172. alacer has joined

  173. Guus

    (or more)

  174. Guus

    lovetox: the challenge need not be time-restricted. If no client reaches the goal, the effort will fizzle out over time, without much harm done.

  175. Guus

    also, I'm willing to take that chance.

  176. jonas’

    Guus, this will be very frustrating for developers who simply cannot invest the time without reliable source of income from the xmpp development :/

  177. Guus

    Ge0rG: maybe. I don't yet care at this point. 🙂

  178. Guus

    jonas' - that's one of my concerns - I'd not like to dissuade others.

  179. Ge0rG

    I'm pretty sure you won't be allowed to do that within the XSF

  180. Guus

    but, on the other side: the XMPP community would benefit more from having a limited amount of pretty good clients, than a large amount of very shitty ones...

  181. Ge0rG

    Guus: that's absolutely true

  182. Guus

    Ge0rG: at this time, I'm first trying to figure out if the idea itself is viable. We can worry about the appropriate vehicle later.

  183. lorddavidiii has left

  184. jonas’

    next worry: client developers will cut corners to achieve the requested milestone

  185. jonas’

    while this might produce a reasonable product *at the time*, it may lead to horrible, unmaintainable code which leads the client into a dead end (at least for a while)

  186. edhelas

    if (xsfCheck) behaveFaster();

  187. jonas’

    hah

  188. jonas’

    #volkswagen

  189. edhelas

    :D

  190. jonas’

    edhelas, are you using https://github.com/auchenberg/volkswagen in movim yet?

  191. edhelas

    always

  192. Guus

    jonas' that's valid too. On the one hand, we'd have to come up with criteria that prevent the worst of this. That will be tricky to do, but should be doable

  193. jonas’

    edhelas, are you using https://github.com/auchenberg/volkswagen in movim yet?

  194. jonas’

    edhelas, are you using https://github.com/hmlb/phpunit-vw in movim yet?

  195. Guus

    But also, I'm now at a point where I'd love to have a good client on IOS, even if it's unmaintainable and will be shitty in a couple of years time.

  196. Kev

    Yeah, I'd love to get Swift shipped properly.

  197. lorddavidiii has joined

  198. alacer has left

  199. alacer has joined

  200. Guus

    Kev: what's keeping you?

  201. Str4tocaster has left

  202. Kev

    Cycles.

  203. jonas’

    Kev, what does blender have to do with that?

  204. Str4tocaster has joined

  205. jonas’

    Guus, hm, so a prize for an iOS client?

  206. Guus

    maybe?

  207. jonas’

    that indeed sounds interesting, because that’s the worst platform at the moment

  208. Guus

    just floating an idea here 🙂

  209. jonas’

    and there’s not too much competition

  210. jonas’

    so less potential for frustration

  211. jonas’

    I’d be totally in favour of that, although that means that my chances from collecting the prize go from 1% to 0% :)

  212. moparisthebest has joined

  213. Ge0rG

    Guus: have you had a look at Monal recently?

  214. Guus

    No

  215. Ge0rG

    Guus: you should. MUC and OMEMO aren't there yet, but there is significant progress and Anu is very responsive to feedback

  216. jonas’

    a working XMPP client on iOS probably needs voice chat though

  217. jonas’

    to get privileges for push

  218. jonas’

    to be finally usable

  219. Guus

    👍

  220. Kev

    A decent iOS client needs more thinking than it seems.

  221. Ge0rG

    I'm not sure it's really needed if we properly tackle xmpp push

  222. jonas’

    so… maybe that should be the goal? but then again, the number you’d have to put on the table to have a freelancer implement audio chat from scratch is .. high

  223. Kev

    We need to get Push properly sorted for it.

  224. jonas’

    Ge0rG, is it? my understanding was that push is unreliable unless you get a voip whitelist

  225. jonas’

    Ge0rG, is it? my understanding was that push is unreliable unless you get a voip whitelist mark or whatever

  226. jonas’

    but I’m not familiar with iOS development

  227. Kev

    The VOIP thing was so that you could leave yourself running in the background to defeat TCP being killed when you're backgrounded.

  228. Ge0rG

    Maybe Monal has that.

  229. jonas’

    ah, right

  230. jonas’

    that would be better than push, indeed

  231. Kev

    Not really, I think.

  232. jonas’

    but, so, not a requirement

  233. jonas’

    Kev, why?

  234. Kev

    Push and quick resync is the better solution. But we don't have a good resync solution at the moment.

  235. jonas’

    except that for push, you need to go through a third-party service

  236. alacer has left

  237. alacer has joined

  238. Str4tocaster has left

  239. daniel

    I think you can create a decent iOS client without VoIP

  240. daniel

    Just by using push properly

  241. jonas’

    daniel, why has nobody managed to do that yet, though?

  242. Ge0rG

    Except Push was -1ed

  243. Ge0rG

    jonas’: lack of developer resources?

  244. jonas’

    Ge0rG, hm. "how hard can it be?"

  245. Str4tocaster has joined

  246. Guus

    jonas' : wanna win a prize? 🙂

  247. daniel

    > daniel, why has nobody managed to do that yet, though? Because people don't seem to know how I guess

  248. jonas’

    Guus, no, I’m not touching iOS

  249. Ge0rG

    jonas’: ChatSecure has a bug where it duplicates incoming messages, and it's unfixed for half a year now already

  250. jonas’

    daniel, do *you* know h ow?

  251. Str4tocaster has left

  252. daniel

    Or don't have enough time to get familiar with it

  253. jonas’

    Ge0rG, yes, but that seems harder than "just" configuring your push server to send the right stuff at the right time

  254. Str4tocaster has joined

  255. Kev

    I had a fairly decent picture of what was needed, but it was less trivial than it sounds.

  256. daniel

    > daniel, do *you* know h ow? I know how I would do it yes

  257. Kev

    Unless I'm just too stupid to see the simple solution.

  258. daniel

    No it's not trivial

  259. jonas’

    daniel, maybe get in touch with $iOSClientDeveloper and get it sorted then?

  260. jonas’

    okay

  261. Guus

    Kev, did you document that?

  262. vinx55 has joined

  263. jonas’

    I’ll shut up then :)

  264. Kev

    You can get by with just Push, but to get the really good experience you also need much faster resyncs than we can currently do.

  265. Kev

    Guus: There are many aspects to getting this right, including MAM, MIX, Push and Routing2.

  266. Kev

    So yes, I've been trying to document the various needed moving parts.

  267. Guus

    Kev: that's why I hoped for existing documentation 🙂

  268. daniel

    I think Chris kinda knows it too. But since it wasn't build into chatsecure it requires heavy refactoring

  269. daniel

    And you probably don't want to use a traditional xmpp library

  270. Ge0rG

    daniel: what about just writing the magic into the XEP?

  271. Kev

    The thing that I would get a lot of hate for suggesting is that I think there would be value in ... XMPP over HTTP.

  272. Zash has joined

  273. Ge0rG

    Kev: different from BOSH?

  274. Kev

    As a quick resync mechanism, so that we could poll in the background.

  275. daniel

    Well I know how to start and I'm fairly confident I could figure out the missing pieces as I go. But it's not that I could write down a step by step how to

  276. Kev

    Ge0rG: Yes, just for polling.

  277. Ge0rG

    Kev: you need cookies / tokens then

  278. Kev

    Yes.

  279. Ge0rG

    Kev: also not sure what problem that'll solve, apart from paranoid firewalls

  280. daniel

    And nobody would then implement it so it would be a wasted effort anyway

  281. Guus

    Does anyone particularly dislike the idea to have some kind of prize offered up for a good* iOS client?

  282. Kev

    Ge0rG: It'd let you poll in the background when receiving a bodyless push to just find the content of that message so you could display a notification.

  283. Kev

    Guus: I do, personally. I think the XSF could better spend its money.

  284. Kev

    Of which it doesn't have muc.

  285. Kev

    Of which it doesn't have much.

  286. Guus

    Kev: on what? I'd love to spend money.

  287. daniel

    > Ge0rG: It'd let you poll in the background when receiving a bodyless push to just find the content of that message so you could display a notification. You have to be fast and recover all state from disk

  288. Ge0rG

    Kev: how's that different from an XMPP connection?

  289. daniel

    But that's it basically

  290. Kev

    daniel: I don't think you need to recover anything at all, actually.

  291. Kev

    You could do the full resync once the client is foregrounded again.

  292. Kev

    Of course, this is much easier if you're willing to have your message content go over Push.

  293. Kev

    But if you're not, you need some mechanism that can wake the client, have it fetch the message that needs displaying, fetch it, display it, and go back to sleep again without the OS getting angry with you.

  294. daniel

    Right. Yes I see that your approach is valid as well. But I think one has enough time to do a regular sm catchup if we get fast resume

  295. Ge0rG

    Kev: that sounds like you are trying to get rid of the cruft of XMPP session setup by replacing XMPP with HTTP, instead of replacing the session setup

  296. daniel

    Aka instant stream resumption and the like

  297. Kev

    I wouldn't even try, I think. To do it over XMPP I'd just have fast reconnect, not fast resume, and then just poll that one item over MAM.

  298. Kev

    And leave the fast resume for when the client is woken up by the user.

  299. jonas’

    Kev, that doesn’t sound too bad

  300. Kev

    Ge0rG: Valid point, see above.

  301. jonas’

    soo… XMPP-over-TLS, SASL2+bind2 to do as much as possible in as few as possible roundtrips, query MAM, close connection?

  302. jonas’

    (or try to keep connection open if possible)

  303. Kev

    Something like that, yeah.

  304. alacer has left

  305. daniel

    Yeah I mean in any case it can be done

  306. Ge0rG &

  307. jonas’

    fg

  308. daniel

    It's just that the developer has to have in depth knowledge of xmpp and design the client from scratch to do this

  309. vinx55 has left

  310. Ge0rG

    jonas’: -EPERM

  311. Kev

    I'm not sure the client needs designing from scratch (I don't think we'd need to redesign Swift to do this, although it's a chunk of work), but there are certainly designs that would make it harder.

  312. Kev

    Ge0rG: You say that, but it clearly worked :D

  313. Str4tocaster has left

  314. Yagiza has joined

  315. Str4tocaster has joined

  316. vinx55 has joined

  317. daniel

    Sure. Depends on the client of course. Maybe swiften was just designed very well

  318. alacer has joined

  319. alacer has left

  320. alacer has joined

  321. daniel has left

  322. daniel has joined

  323. Yagiza has left

  324. alacer has left

  325. Holger

    Kev: > The VOIP thing was so that you could leave yourself running in the background to defeat TCP being killed when you're backgrounded. Yes that's how it worked with past iOS versions, AFAIK there's no way to do get that behavior these days. Now you need the VoIP label to get silent notifications, i.e. to have your app woken up rather than notifying the user without waking the app.

  326. genofire has left

  327. Kev

    I stand corrected.

  328. Holger

    Kev: > let you poll in the background when receiving a bodyless push You'd still need that VoIP flag to get that 'bodyless push' in the first place. And how does HTTP vs. XMPP help after being woken up?

  329. Kev

    Keep reading down :)

  330. Holger

    I did.

  331. Kev

    It doesn't, you could do the same over XMPP by having a non-session stream making a MAM request.

  332. Holger

    Ah ok.

  333. Kev

    As long as you had XMPP-over-TLS, and immediate setup instead of SASL.

  334. Holger didn't grasp that you were still tackling the same point here.

  335. Holger

    Right.

  336. Holger

    daniel: > I think you can create a decent iOS client without VoIP I dunno how you'd avoid "New message" notifications though.

  337. Kev

    Presumably by sending the content in the push notif, which some people would hate, and others would be quite happy with.

  338. jonas’

    you can’t do that with OMEMO

  339. Holger

    With a smarter push mechanism we could avoid sending multiple of those, and once the client *is* woken it can attempt to replace that notification (like ChatSecure already does), but that's not reliable.

  340. Holger

    Kev: Right.

  341. Kev

    jonas’: OMEMO is why we can't have nice things :)

  342. jonas’

    no, broken mobile OSes are why we can’t have nice things (in this case)

  343. Holger

    Yes it would be nice if we could offer a knob to optionally include message contents.

  344. Kev

    I think the "can't send bodyless push" thing might be broken (didn't know about that), but otherwise the whole "suspect in background" thing seems quite sensible to me (also the way Android seems to be going).

  345. daniel

    > daniel: > I dunno how you'd avoid "New message" notifications though. You can replace the content of a message

  346. daniel

    You get the new message push, catch up with the real one and then replace it

  347. daniel

    But yes you need to make the push a bit smarter

  348. daniel

    But that's not rocket science

  349. Holger

    Kev: Yes, the big difference so far is that Android doesn't restrict silent notifications. But who knows where they're going.

  350. Kev

    s/suspect/suspend/, obviously.

  351. Holger

    daniel: Right, that's what ChatSecure is doing. But that means in 86,9% of all cases, users see a "new message!" notification.

  352. Kev

    So what's WhatsApp doing here - registering as a VOIP app so it can receive push notifs?

  353. daniel

    I think the go the replacing route. They just don't have false positives

  354. Holger

    daniel: The ChatSecure app server generates both a 'New message' notification *and* a 'silent' notification. The latter one is unreliable, but *if* it's delivered, the "catch up and replace" thing is attempted. If it's not, there's no way to do that.

  355. Holger

    Kev, daniel: I would've assumed silent VoIP notifications.

  356. Holger

    But I dunno.

  357. daniel

    But the new message ones are reliable as well, no?

  358. Kev

    https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/setting_up_a_remote_notification_server/pushing_updates_to_your_app_silently Doesn't say anything about needing to be a VOIP app, AFAICT.

  359. Holger

    Would be interesting to know what e.g. Signal did before they had VoIP support.

  360. Holger

    daniel: The 'New message' ones are reliable.

  361. Holger

    Kev: I'll look it up, it was documented somewhere (and it clearly works that way).

  362. efrit has joined

  363. daniel

    So figure out when a notification should actually trigger a notification, send a reliable one with a dummy body and the modify it to show the actual content

  364. daniel

    I don't see the problem with that

  365. daniel

    You get 30s to modify it https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/modifying_content_in_newly_delivered_notifications

  366. daniel

    This only depends on the app server to figure that and then on the client to do the catchup in 30s

  367. daniel

    That seems achievable

  368. Kev

    s/catchup/message discovery/

  369. Kev

    You might do message discovery with catchup, you might employ a different mechanism.

  370. daniel

    What ever ☺️

  371. daniel

    What ever meachism you deem fit to fetch a specific message within 30s

  372. Kev

    Right.

  373. Holger

    Ahh, right, "Service App Extension". That's a new thing I think, IIRC Chris mentioned that.

  374. marc has left

  375. Holger

    That would probably do the trick indeed.

  376. Kev

    Ok, I've spent a few minutes reading (more than I should, probably), and from what I can tell VOIP pushes will make things better because they're high priority pushes, but shouldn't be necessary for this to work.

  377. Holger

    Yes yes, I forgot about that thing. Depends on a recent iOS version I think, but apart from that it's probably fine.

  378. marc has joined

  379. daniel

    I mean 30s is actually *a lot *

  380. Holger has left

  381. daniel

    I'd be worried if we only had single digit seconds

  382. daniel

    I mean obviously my users hate metrics and an app 'calling home'. But it'd be fun to get some numbers on the median resume and catch up time in Conversations

  383. efrit has left

  384. Holger has left

  385. vinx55 has left

  386. waqas has joined

  387. j.r has left

  388. j.r has joined

  389. thorsten has joined

  390. Nekit has left

  391. Nekit has joined

  392. thorsten has left

  393. waqas has left

  394. efrit has joined

  395. lorddavidiii has left

  396. thorsten has joined

  397. thorsten has left

  398. jjrh has left

  399. pep.

    Guus, re prices to give to clients, I agree with jonas’ that this will probably discourage others that don't have enough time to allocate. But I also agree that it would be nice to have some kind of incentive

  400. lorddavidiii has joined

  401. efrit has left

  402. Str4tocaster has left

  403. Guus

    jonas', you here?

  404. Str4tocaster has joined

  405. lorddavidiii has left

  406. krauq has joined

  407. jonas’

    kindof

  408. jonas’

    Guus, what’s up?

  409. Guus

    mind popping over to the iteam muc?

  410. moparisthebest has joined

  411. lorddavidiii has joined

  412. intosi has left

  413. intosi has joined

  414. Str4tocaster has left

  415. Str4tocaster has joined

  416. Str4tocaster has left

  417. Str4tocaster has joined

  418. Str4tocaster has left

  419. Str4tocaster has joined

  420. lnj has joined

  421. Yagiza has joined

  422. Holger has left

  423. lnj has left

  424. j.r has joined

  425. jjrh has left

  426. Str4tocaster has left

  427. Str4tocaster has joined

  428. Str4tocaster has left

  429. Str4tocaster has joined

  430. guusdk has left

  431. guusdk has left

  432. guusdk has joined

  433. rion has left

  434. rion has left

  435. Str4tocaster has left

  436. rion has left

  437. Str4tocaster has joined

  438. efrit has joined

  439. guusdk has joined

  440. Str4tocaster has left

  441. Str4tocaster has joined

  442. Str4tocaster has left

  443. Str4tocaster has joined

  444. Str4tocaster has left

  445. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  446. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  447. Str4tocaster has joined

  448. lnj has joined

  449. efrit has left

  450. Str4tocaster has left

  451. Str4tocaster has joined

  452. ThibG has left

  453. ThibG has joined

  454. thorsten has joined

  455. thorsten has left

  456. Str4tocaster has left

  457. Str4tocaster has joined

  458. Str4tocaster has left

  459. Str4tocaster has joined

  460. lskdjf has left

  461. thorsten has joined

  462. thorsten has joined

  463. Str4tocaster has left

  464. thorsten has left

  465. Str4tocaster has joined

  466. thorsten has joined

  467. thorsten has left

  468. Str4tocaster has left

  469. thorsten has joined

  470. thorsten has left

  471. thorsten has joined

  472. thorsten has left

  473. thorsten has joined

  474. thorsten has left

  475. guusdk has left

  476. guusdk has joined

  477. thorsten has joined

  478. thorsten has left

  479. thorsten has joined

  480. thorsten has left

  481. vanitasvitae has left

  482. Guus

    Anyone in here that didn't vote yet? 🙂

  483. alacer has joined

  484. Guus

    if so: you're now looking at your IM-client. You might as well pop off a message to memberbot.

  485. thorsten has joined

  486. thorsten has left

  487. thorsten has joined

  488. MattJ scurries

  489. MattJ

    Thanks for the reminder

  490. thorsten has left

  491. thorsten has joined

  492. thorsten has left

  493. Link Mauve

    Thanks, I just did it!

  494. rion has left

  495. alacer has left

  496. alacer has joined

  497. rion has left

  498. thorsten has joined

  499. thorsten has left

  500. rion has left

  501. lorddavidiii has left

  502. Zash has left

  503. l has left

  504. l has left

  505. thorsten has joined

  506. thorsten has left

  507. thorsten has joined

  508. thorsten has left

  509. lorddavidiii has joined

  510. thorsten has joined

  511. alacer has left

  512. thorsten has left

  513. thorsten has joined

  514. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  515. thorsten has left

  516. thorsten has joined

  517. thorsten has left

  518. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  519. Yagiza has left

  520. thorsten has joined

  521. Wiktor has joined

  522. thorsten has left

  523. Yagiza has joined

  524. thorsten has joined

  525. thorsten has left

  526. lorddavidiii has left

  527. thorsten has joined

  528. thorsten has left

  529. Yagiza has left

  530. thorsten has joined

  531. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  532. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  533. efrit has joined

  534. krauq has left

  535. Wiktor has joined

  536. lorddavidiii has joined

  537. Zash has joined

  538. Syndace has joined

  539. vaulor has joined

  540. thorsten has joined

  541. thorsten has left

  542. thorsten has joined

  543. thorsten has left

  544. ThibG has joined

  545. thorsten has joined

  546. thorsten has left

  547. thorsten has joined

  548. thorsten has left

  549. lumi has joined

  550. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  551. thorsten has joined

  552. thorsten has joined

  553. thorsten has left

  554. thorsten has joined

  555. efrit has left

  556. thorsten has left

  557. krauq has joined

  558. andy has left

  559. Zash has left

  560. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  561. waqas has joined

  562. Zash has left

  563. Guus

    jonas’ kindly commit that missing file 🙂

  564. thorsten has joined

  565. thorsten has left

  566. thorsten has joined

  567. thorsten has left

  568. genofire has left

  569. thorsten has joined

  570. UsL has joined

  571. thorsten has left

  572. thorsten has joined

  573. mightyBroccoli has left

  574. thorsten has left

  575. genofire has joined

  576. efrit has joined

  577. krauq has left

  578. genofire has left

  579. genofire has joined

  580. jonas’

    Guus, did

  581. thorsten has joined

  582. thorsten has left

  583. thorsten has joined

  584. thorsten has left

  585. genofire has left

  586. genofire has joined

  587. thorsten has joined

  588. thorsten has left

  589. Syndace

    daniel, Dino merged our pr for the 12 bytes IV already, nice ^^

  590. genofire has left

  591. genofire has joined

  592. thorsten has joined

  593. thorsten has left

  594. blabla has left

  595. genofire has left

  596. genofire has joined

  597. thorsten has joined

  598. jjrh has left

  599. thorsten has left

  600. thorsten has joined

  601. thorsten has left

  602. mightyBroccoli has joined

  603. thorsten has joined

  604. thorsten has left

  605. thorsten has joined

  606. thorsten has left

  607. daniel

    Yes I saw that

  608. daniel

    Now we need to do something about chatsecure

  609. krauq has joined

  610. genofire has left

  611. genofire has joined

  612. krauq has left

  613. thorsten has joined

  614. thorsten has left

  615. thorsten has joined

  616. thorsten has left

  617. thorsten has joined

  618. thorsten has left

  619. blabla has joined

  620. thorsten has joined

  621. !xsf_martin has joined

  622. thorsten has left

  623. genofire has left

  624. genofire has joined

  625. matlag has left

  626. !xsf_martin has joined

  627. jjrh has left

  628. thorsten has joined

  629. genofire has left

  630. thorsten has left

  631. thorsten has joined

  632. thorsten has left

  633. genofire has joined

  634. thorsten has joined

  635. thorsten has left

  636. krauq has joined

  637. thorsten has joined

  638. thorsten has left

  639. daniel has left

  640. daniel has joined

  641. rion has left

  642. thorsten has joined

  643. thorsten has left

  644. thorsten has joined

  645. thorsten has left

  646. thorsten has joined

  647. genofire has left

  648. genofire has joined

  649. thorsten has left

  650. marc has left

  651. daniel has left

  652. daniel has joined

  653. thorsten has joined

  654. daniel has left

  655. Guus has left

  656. daniel has joined

  657. thorsten has left

  658. guusdk has left

  659. guusdk has joined

  660. genofire has left

  661. thorsten has joined

  662. thorsten has left

  663. guusdk has left

  664. guusdk has joined

  665. genofire has joined

  666. thorsten has joined

  667. thorsten has left

  668. genofire has left

  669. thorsten has joined

  670. thorsten has left

  671. genofire has joined

  672. genofire has left

  673. thorsten has joined

  674. lskdjf has joined

  675. thorsten has left

  676. thorsten has joined

  677. thorsten has left

  678. waqas has left

  679. waqas has joined

  680. thorsten has joined

  681. genofire has joined

  682. thorsten has left

  683. waqas has left

  684. waqas has joined

  685. guusdk has left

  686. guusdk has left

  687. guusdk has joined

  688. thorsten has joined

  689. waqas has left

  690. waqas has joined

  691. genofire has left

  692. thorsten has left

  693. genofire has joined

  694. efrit has left

  695. thorsten has joined

  696. thorsten has left

  697. rion has left

  698. thorsten has joined

  699. thorsten has left

  700. waqas has left

  701. waqas has joined

  702. thorsten has joined

  703. thorsten has left

  704. waqas has left

  705. waqas has joined

  706. thorsten has joined

  707. genofire has left

  708. genofire has joined

  709. thorsten has left

  710. Nekit has left

  711. Nekit has joined

  712. thorsten has joined

  713. Tobias has left

  714. thorsten has left

  715. waqas has left

  716. waqas has joined

  717. Alex has left

  718. waqas has left

  719. waqas has joined

  720. tux has joined

  721. genofire has left

  722. waqas has left

  723. waqas has joined

  724. thorsten has joined

  725. thorsten has left

  726. thorsten has joined

  727. genofire has joined

  728. thorsten has left

  729. waqas has left

  730. waqas has joined

  731. waqas has left

  732. waqas has joined

  733. thorsten has joined

  734. thorsten has left

  735. thorsten has joined

  736. rion has left

  737. thorsten has left

  738. vanitasvitae has left

  739. thorsten has joined

  740. thorsten has left

  741. thorsten has joined

  742. thorsten has left

  743. Yagiza has joined

  744. thorsten has joined

  745. Yagiza has left

  746. thorsten has left

  747. vanitasvitae has left

  748. lovetox has left

  749. lovetox has joined

  750. thorsten has joined

  751. thorsten has left

  752. thorsten has joined

  753. thorsten has left

  754. genofire has left

  755. genofire has joined

  756. thorsten has joined

  757. thorsten has left

  758. thorsten has joined

  759. thorsten has left

  760. Yagiza has joined

  761. moparisthebest

    Guus: it seems like whatever prize the xsf could offer wouldn't be large enough to pay for development, so you still need a dedicated dev who wants it for themselves

  762. thorsten has joined

  763. thorsten has left

  764. moparisthebest

    And any Dev like that doesn't want to run a crippled phone OS when they can run Android...

  765. thorsten has joined

  766. moparisthebest

    Hey if Android keeps getting worse though...

  767. Guus

    moparisthebest: prize money is an incentive, but not paying for all of the development.

  768. thorsten has left

  769. thorsten has joined

  770. tux has joined

  771. Syndace has left

  772. thorsten has left

  773. thorsten has joined

  774. thorsten has left

  775. thorsten has joined

  776. thorsten has joined

  777. thorsten has left

  778. guusdk has left

  779. Yagiza has left

  780. rion has left

  781. Zash

    The real prize is the bragging rights for your marketing department if you win

  782. Steve Kille has left

  783. Steve Kille has left

  784. Steve Kille has joined

  785. mightyBroccoli has left

  786. mightyBroccoli has joined

  787. no has joined

  788. no has left

  789. MattJ has joined

  790. Steve Kille has left

  791. goffi has joined

  792. labdsf has left

  793. moparisthebest

    I think there are basically 2 types of devs that would do it

  794. moparisthebest

    One is with funding and a marketing plan, and it's not gonna be open, line WhatsApp etc

  795. moparisthebest

    Other is Dev that wants to scratch their own itch, with capability, and using an iPhone full time

  796. moparisthebest

    I don't think that second one exists

  797. MattJ

    It shouldn't be overlooked that we have at least two iOS clients already

  798. MattJ

    It's not necessarily a requirement to write a new one from scratch

  799. MattJ

    and therefore it may be feasible to fund shorter specific projects on top of existing iOS clients

  800. UsL has joined

  801. moparisthebest

    Yea that seems more feasible

  802. Ge0rG

    https://op-co.de/tmp/xep-0184.html#format - the "Note:" below example 4. I think I need to tune the wording some more.

  803. UsL has joined

  804. thorsten has joined

  805. Ge0rG

    Maybe it's time to do some woodwork instead of writing XEPs.

  806. thorsten has left

  807. genofire has left

  808. genofire has joined

  809. thorsten has joined

  810. thorsten has left

  811. daniel

    If you started building a bicycle you might not be able to fix it into a car

  812. daniel

    Especially not as a third party

  813. j.r has left

  814. marc has joined

  815. SamWhited

    In that case, I feel like xmpp is a bicycle car hybrid where one person keeps taking off bike parts and putting car parts on and one person is doing the opposite and others are just randomly bolting airplane parts on wherever they'll fit.

  816. SamWhited

    (I missed most context there, but if I interpreted the analogy correctly my point is that I'm starting to think we need a specific mission and set of use cases)

  817. thorsten has joined

  818. thorsten has left

  819. thorsten has joined

  820. thorsten has left

  821. daniel

    SamWhited: I was talking about clients. I think there is some truth to what you are saying in regards to the protocol but I think it's more severe when it comes to specific clients

  822. daniel

    A multi use protocol is not an unfixable problem imho

  823. daniel

    Maybe a hard one

  824. SamWhited

    ah yah, that applies even better to most clients, assume I was talking about that too

  825. lorddavidiii has left

  826. lorddavidiii has joined

  827. thorsten has joined

  828. thorsten has left

  829. thorsten has joined

  830. thorsten has left

  831. Neustradamus has left

  832. Neustradamus has joined

  833. thorsten has joined

  834. thorsten has left

  835. thorsten has joined

  836. thorsten has joined

  837. thorsten has left

  838. rion has left

  839. thorsten has joined

  840. thorsten has left

  841. thorsten has joined

  842. thorsten has left

  843. Yagiza has joined

  844. Syndace has joined

  845. Yagiza has left

  846. rion has left

  847. lskdjf has joined

  848. labdsf has joined

  849. rion has left

  850. jjrh has left

  851. rion has left

  852. jjrh has left

  853. rion has left

  854. jjrh has left

  855. l has joined

  856. labdsf has left

  857. Alex has joined

  858. jjrh has left

  859. labdsf has joined

  860. genofire has left

  861. genofire has left

  862. guusdk has left

  863. guusdk has joined

  864. daniel has left

  865. daniel has joined

  866. l has joined

  867. Alex has left

  868. Alex has joined

  869. labdsf has left

  870. jonas’

    https://github.com/siacs/Conversations/issues/3125#issuecomment-440398906

  871. jonas’

    there is a need for a simple way to refer to another message

  872. jonas’

    references doesn’t have that use-case

  873. jonas’

    can we get that specified quickly?

  874. jonas’

    or alternatively rename Message Attaching, because it’s not being used for attaching apparently

  875. Zash

    What uses it and for what then?

  876. labdsf has joined

  877. jonas’

    Zash, see that link please

  878. Zash

    What, read what I'm commenting on?! Unpossible!

  879. Zash

    Mkay

  880. Zash

    Don't make me submit an <in-reply-to/>

  881. Zash

    or "How to blockchain using thread/@parent"

  882. lovetox

    im not sure about this for quotation

  883. lovetox

    but what it actually solves nicely is the case where i want to convey a url with a message

  884. lovetox

    but i want to encrypt it

  885. lovetox

    for oob and the sorts, full stanza encryption is necessary

  886. goffi has joined

  887. lovetox

    this would solve this nicely for omemo

  888. SamWhited has left

  889. pep.

    Why do we have to fix everything else when we can fix omemo :(

  890. daniel has left

  891. SamWhited has joined

  892. daniel has joined

  893. Alex has left

  894. lovetox

    daniel said last time, in the last sprint they furhter developed the future omemo version

  895. lovetox

    so i guess it will happen sometime

  896. Tobias has joined

  897. pep.

    When it's already too late because the other things around it have been changed?

  898. Tobias has joined

  899. lovetox

    its never too late for full stanza encryption

  900. lovetox

    also it about a different wireformat to evolve from signal

  901. blabla has joined

  902. pep.

    Yeah there's been discussions around that this weekend as well

  903. rion has left

  904. rion has left

  905. rion has left

  906. goffi has joined

  907. Alex has left

  908. SamWhited has left

  909. genofire has left

  910. SamWhited has joined

  911. lorddavidiii has left

  912. pep.

    "Furthermore, even if 3.4 covered our use case other use cases outside our scope would still have to be implemented in order to be compliant with the whole XEP.", I guess people are also often confused by this.

  913. pep.

    How many people say they support MUC or Pubsub entirely :)

  914. pep.

    How many people say they support MUC or Pubsub :)

  915. matlag has left

  916. jjrh has left

  917. SamWhited has left

  918. j.r has joined

  919. matlag has left

  920. jjrh has left

  921. SamWhited has joined

  922. l has joined

  923. l has joined

  924. SamWhited has left

  925. lorddavidiii has joined

  926. Ge0rG

    lovetox [20:48]: > its never too late for full stanza encryption Nobody expects the Full Stanza Encryption!

  927. Ge0rG

    Zash [20:35]: > Don't make me submit an <in-reply-to/> And then rewrite Receipts and LMC on top of it!

  928. Ge0rG

    See discussion in jdev@ today

  929. genofire has left

  930. moparisthebest has left

  931. tux has joined

  932. marc has left

  933. l has joined

  934. efrit has joined

  935. goffi

    Do you know this https://omemo.im/ ? The website looks like an aggregation of publicly available informations, and it claims to be open source but I don't see any source code. Smells like malicious app

  936. lovetox

    its not malicious

  937. lovetox

    it seems to link for downloads directly to other projects

  938. lovetox

    like gajim, and zom

  939. Zash

    Except the Android one

  940. lovetox

    yes

  941. lovetox

    thats a bit weird

  942. Zash

    It links to Conversations in the footer

  943. lovetox

    but i bet its conversations

  944. lovetox

    relabeld

  945. lskdjf has joined

  946. lovetox

    but yeah, i dont know that will help the cause

  947. lnj has left

  948. lorddavidiii has left

  949. blabla has left

  950. lorddavidiii has joined

  951. goffi has joined

  952. goffi

    also here https://www.reddit.com/r/xmpp/comments/9y3ib4/can_you_use_omemo_encryption_across_two_different/ "See omemo.im and test their server and app across yours." by somebody nicknames "omemo82", it doesn't smells good to me

  953. goffi

    nicknames

  954. goffi

    nickamed*

  955. goffi

    arg

  956. goffi

    nicknamed*

  957. Zash

    Search for omemo.im on github turns up https://github.com/froghorn82/omemo.im

  958. !xsf_martin has left

  959. SamWhited has joined

  960. genofire has left

  961. blabla has joined

  962. guusdk has left

  963. efrit has left

  964. ralphm has left

  965. vanitasvitae

    THe commit history is... interesting 😀

  966. alexde has joined

  967. genofire has left

  968. j.r has joined

  969. j.r has joined

  970. lovetox

    dont understand why people dont try to do something productive

  971. lnj has left

  972. Tobias has joined

  973. lnj has joined

  974. Zash

    Procrastinating makes the world go round ... later.

  975. Zash has left

  976. Zash has left

  977. lorddavidiii has left

  978. lorddavidiii has joined

  979. alexde has left

  980. lumi has left

  981. goffi has joined

  982. vaulor has joined

  983. vaulor has joined

  984. rion has left

  985. lovetox has left

  986. vaulor has left

  987. MattJ has joined

  988. jjrh has left

  989. moparisthebest has left

  990. l has left

  991. genofire has left

  992. genofire has left