jonas’Ge0rG, what is that list of XEPs? anything useful for the compliance suites?
Ge0rGjonas’: you mean the "relevant for mobile" list? I think it's covered by the suite already, plus 0184
jonas’good
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danielI wouldn't hold my breath for chatty though
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Ge0rGdaniel: because of libpurple?
danielJust by extrapolating the progress of the last four month
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Ge0rGdaniel: so because of libpurple.
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Ge0rGdaniel: are you missing XEPs from Compliance Suite 2019?
danielGe0rG: I don't recall anything coming up this year
danielMaybe the bookmark conversion thing?
Ge0rGavatar something-something?
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jonas’the conversion XEPs would indeed be interesting to have
pep.I was also thinking about bookmarks conversion
pep.Do the xeps that go in there need to be draft or sth?
jonas’isn’t even MIX in there?
pep.When nobody implements it and it's not exactly clear what the benefits are over existing protocols?
jonas’ah, no, it’s just an informational footnote that MIX might be coming
lovetoxare you talking about server implementing it or client?
lovetoxbecause client its just "dont sync pep and private storage"
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danielA client should Stil know about that
jonas’itym: "its just 'dont sync pep and private storage, but only if the server exposes the feature, otherwise you’re as doomed as ever'"
danielSo even it's not a lot of work
lovetoxyes jonas, i might implement it today
jonas’so yeah, clients need to know about it
jonas’and even if only to relieve the developers from the nightmares they get when thinking about the mess that synchronization is
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GuusI'm toying with an idea, for to XSF to offer up a prize for development of the best/first/somehow-to-be-qualified new (client?) XMPP software, X-Prize style. My primary motivation is to facilitate the development of new, feature complete / representable software for things that are currently missing from the XMPP eco-system. A decent, free IOS client, perhaps? What do you guys think?
edhelasI like the idea :)
edhelasbut maybe put a couple of categories, like the Oscars, best UX, best security, best XMPP support...
GuusI don't have a concrete plan for the shape or form, so yeah, that's all possible.
GuusThat said: we have limited resources, so for the incentive to be interesting enough, we might not want to have to split things up to much.
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edhelasyeah just a few of them, it could be a simple vote and we design a some logos that the winner project can put on their README :D
lovetoxyou have to be prepared that no client reaches the goal, that would be a bit embarasing then
edhelas"Best XMPP Client of 2018"
Ge0rGjonas’ [10:22]:
> and even if only to relieve the developers from the nightmares they get when thinking about the mess that synchronization is
_99 issues with sync in the PEP //
99 issues with sync //
One bug gets squashed //
98 issues with sync in the PEP_
SeveI would not split if possible, indeed. If it must be a client, I would say something missing. Either features missing in the modern times or a client for a platform with no clients/up-to-date clients
Ge0rGGuus: that calls for a Jabber Software Foundation
GuusYou're miscounting, Ge0rG. Last number should be '100'...
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Guus(or more)
Guuslovetox: the challenge need not be time-restricted. If no client reaches the goal, the effort will fizzle out over time, without much harm done.
Guusalso, I'm willing to take that chance.
jonas’Guus, this will be very frustrating for developers who simply cannot invest the time without reliable source of income from the xmpp development :/
GuusGe0rG: maybe. I don't yet care at this point. 🙂
Guusjonas' - that's one of my concerns - I'd not like to dissuade others.
Ge0rGI'm pretty sure you won't be allowed to do that within the XSF
Guusbut, on the other side: the XMPP community would benefit more from having a limited amount of pretty good clients, than a large amount of very shitty ones...
Ge0rGGuus: that's absolutely true
GuusGe0rG: at this time, I'm first trying to figure out if the idea itself is viable. We can worry about the appropriate vehicle later.
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jonas’next worry: client developers will cut corners to achieve the requested milestone
jonas’while this might produce a reasonable product *at the time*, it may lead to horrible, unmaintainable code which leads the client into a dead end (at least for a while)
edhelasif (xsfCheck) behaveFaster();
jonas’hah
jonas’#volkswagen
edhelas:D
jonas’edhelas, are you using https://github.com/auchenberg/volkswagen in movim yet?
edhelasalways
Guusjonas' that's valid too. On the one hand, we'd have to come up with criteria that prevent the worst of this. That will be tricky to do, but should be doable
jonas’edhelas, are you using https://github.com/auchenberg/volkswagen in movim yet?
jonas’edhelas, are you using https://github.com/hmlb/phpunit-vw in movim yet?
GuusBut also, I'm now at a point where I'd love to have a good client on IOS, even if it's unmaintainable and will be shitty in a couple of years time.
KevYeah, I'd love to get Swift shipped properly.
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GuusKev: what's keeping you?
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KevCycles.
jonas’Kev, what does blender have to do with that?
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jonas’Guus, hm, so a prize for an iOS client?
Guusmaybe?
jonas’that indeed sounds interesting, because that’s the worst platform at the moment
Guusjust floating an idea here 🙂
jonas’and there’s not too much competition
jonas’so less potential for frustration
jonas’I’d be totally in favour of that, although that means that my chances from collecting the prize go from 1% to 0% :)
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Ge0rGGuus: have you had a look at Monal recently?
GuusNo
Ge0rGGuus: you should. MUC and OMEMO aren't there yet, but there is significant progress and Anu is very responsive to feedback
jonas’a working XMPP client on iOS probably needs voice chat though
jonas’to get privileges for push
jonas’to be finally usable
Guus👍
KevA decent iOS client needs more thinking than it seems.
Ge0rGI'm not sure it's really needed if we properly tackle xmpp push
jonas’so… maybe that should be the goal? but then again, the number you’d have to put on the table to have a freelancer implement audio chat from scratch is .. high
KevWe need to get Push properly sorted for it.
jonas’Ge0rG, is it? my understanding was that push is unreliable unless you get a voip whitelist
jonas’Ge0rG, is it? my understanding was that push is unreliable unless you get a voip whitelist mark or whatever
jonas’but I’m not familiar with iOS development
KevThe VOIP thing was so that you could leave yourself running in the background to defeat TCP being killed when you're backgrounded.
Ge0rGMaybe Monal has that.
jonas’ah, right
jonas’that would be better than push, indeed
KevNot really, I think.
jonas’but, so, not a requirement
jonas’Kev, why?
KevPush and quick resync is the better solution. But we don't have a good resync solution at the moment.
jonas’except that for push, you need to go through a third-party service
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danielI think you can create a decent iOS client without VoIP
danielJust by using push properly
jonas’daniel, why has nobody managed to do that yet, though?
Ge0rGExcept Push was -1ed
Ge0rGjonas’: lack of developer resources?
jonas’Ge0rG, hm. "how hard can it be?"
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Guusjonas' : wanna win a prize? 🙂
daniel> daniel, why has nobody managed to do that yet, though?
Because people don't seem to know how I guess
jonas’Guus, no, I’m not touching iOS
Ge0rGjonas’: ChatSecure has a bug where it duplicates incoming messages, and it's unfixed for half a year now already
jonas’daniel, do *you* know h ow?
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danielOr don't have enough time to get familiar with it
jonas’Ge0rG, yes, but that seems harder than "just" configuring your push server to send the right stuff at the right time
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KevI had a fairly decent picture of what was needed, but it was less trivial than it sounds.
daniel> daniel, do *you* know h ow?
I know how I would do it yes
KevUnless I'm just too stupid to see the simple solution.
danielNo it's not trivial
jonas’daniel, maybe get in touch with $iOSClientDeveloper and get it sorted then?
jonas’okay
GuusKev, did you document that?
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jonas’I’ll shut up then :)
KevYou can get by with just Push, but to get the really good experience you also need much faster resyncs than we can currently do.
KevGuus: There are many aspects to getting this right, including MAM, MIX, Push and Routing2.
KevSo yes, I've been trying to document the various needed moving parts.
GuusKev: that's why I hoped for existing documentation 🙂
danielI think Chris kinda knows it too. But since it wasn't build into chatsecure it requires heavy refactoring
danielAnd you probably don't want to use a traditional xmpp library
Ge0rGdaniel: what about just writing the magic into the XEP?
KevThe thing that I would get a lot of hate for suggesting is that I think there would be value in ... XMPP over HTTP.
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Ge0rGKev: different from BOSH?
KevAs a quick resync mechanism, so that we could poll in the background.
danielWell I know how to start and I'm fairly confident I could figure out the missing pieces as I go. But it's not that I could write down a step by step how to
KevGe0rG: Yes, just for polling.
Ge0rGKev: you need cookies / tokens then
KevYes.
Ge0rGKev: also not sure what problem that'll solve, apart from paranoid firewalls
danielAnd nobody would then implement it so it would be a wasted effort anyway
GuusDoes anyone particularly dislike the idea to have some kind of prize offered up for a good* iOS client?
KevGe0rG: It'd let you poll in the background when receiving a bodyless push to just find the content of that message so you could display a notification.
KevGuus: I do, personally. I think the XSF could better spend its money.
KevOf which it doesn't have muc.
KevOf which it doesn't have much.
GuusKev: on what? I'd love to spend money.
daniel> Ge0rG: It'd let you poll in the background when receiving a bodyless push to just find the content of that message so you could display a notification.
You have to be fast and recover all state from disk
Ge0rGKev: how's that different from an XMPP connection?
danielBut that's it basically
Kevdaniel: I don't think you need to recover anything at all, actually.
KevYou could do the full resync once the client is foregrounded again.
KevOf course, this is much easier if you're willing to have your message content go over Push.
KevBut if you're not, you need some mechanism that can wake the client, have it fetch the message that needs displaying, fetch it, display it, and go back to sleep again without the OS getting angry with you.
danielRight. Yes I see that your approach is valid as well. But I think one has enough time to do a regular sm catchup if we get fast resume
Ge0rGKev: that sounds like you are trying to get rid of the cruft of XMPP session setup by replacing XMPP with HTTP, instead of replacing the session setup
danielAka instant stream resumption and the like
KevI wouldn't even try, I think. To do it over XMPP I'd just have fast reconnect, not fast resume, and then just poll that one item over MAM.
KevAnd leave the fast resume for when the client is woken up by the user.
jonas’Kev, that doesn’t sound too bad
KevGe0rG: Valid point, see above.
jonas’soo… XMPP-over-TLS, SASL2+bind2 to do as much as possible in as few as possible roundtrips, query MAM, close connection?
jonas’(or try to keep connection open if possible)
KevSomething like that, yeah.
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danielYeah I mean in any case it can be done
Ge0rG&
jonas’fg
danielIt's just that the developer has to have in depth knowledge of xmpp and design the client from scratch to do this
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Ge0rGjonas’: -EPERM
KevI'm not sure the client needs designing from scratch (I don't think we'd need to redesign Swift to do this, although it's a chunk of work), but there are certainly designs that would make it harder.
KevGe0rG: You say that, but it clearly worked :D
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danielSure. Depends on the client of course. Maybe swiften was just designed very well
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HolgerKev:
> The VOIP thing was so that you could leave yourself running in the background to defeat TCP being killed when you're backgrounded.
Yes that's how it worked with past iOS versions, AFAIK there's no way to do get that behavior these days. Now you need the VoIP label to get silent notifications, i.e. to have your app woken up rather than notifying the user without waking the app.
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KevI stand corrected.
HolgerKev:
> let you poll in the background when receiving a bodyless push
You'd still need that VoIP flag to get that 'bodyless push' in the first place. And how does HTTP vs. XMPP help after being woken up?
KevKeep reading down :)
HolgerI did.
KevIt doesn't, you could do the same over XMPP by having a non-session stream making a MAM request.
HolgerAh ok.
KevAs long as you had XMPP-over-TLS, and immediate setup instead of SASL.
Holgerdidn't grasp that you were still tackling the same point here.
HolgerRight.
Holgerdaniel:
> I think you can create a decent iOS client without VoIP
I dunno how you'd avoid "New message" notifications though.
KevPresumably by sending the content in the push notif, which some people would hate, and others would be quite happy with.
jonas’you can’t do that with OMEMO
HolgerWith a smarter push mechanism we could avoid sending multiple of those, and once the client *is* woken it can attempt to replace that notification (like ChatSecure already does), but that's not reliable.
HolgerKev: Right.
Kevjonas’: OMEMO is why we can't have nice things :)
jonas’no, broken mobile OSes are why we can’t have nice things (in this case)
HolgerYes it would be nice if we could offer a knob to optionally include message contents.
KevI think the "can't send bodyless push" thing might be broken (didn't know about that), but otherwise the whole "suspect in background" thing seems quite sensible to me (also the way Android seems to be going).
daniel> daniel:
> I dunno how you'd avoid "New message" notifications though.
You can replace the content of a message
danielYou get the new message push, catch up with the real one and then replace it
danielBut yes you need to make the push a bit smarter
danielBut that's not rocket science
HolgerKev: Yes, the big difference so far is that Android doesn't restrict silent notifications. But who knows where they're going.
Kevs/suspect/suspend/, obviously.
Holgerdaniel: Right, that's what ChatSecure is doing. But that means in 86,9% of all cases, users see a "new message!" notification.
KevSo what's WhatsApp doing here - registering as a VOIP app so it can receive push notifs?
danielI think the go the replacing route. They just don't have false positives
Holgerdaniel: The ChatSecure app server generates both a 'New message' notification *and* a 'silent' notification. The latter one is unreliable, but *if* it's delivered, the "catch up and replace" thing is attempted. If it's not, there's no way to do that.
HolgerKev, daniel: I would've assumed silent VoIP notifications.
HolgerBut I dunno.
danielBut the new message ones are reliable as well, no?
Kevhttps://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/setting_up_a_remote_notification_server/pushing_updates_to_your_app_silently
Doesn't say anything about needing to be a VOIP app, AFAICT.
HolgerWould be interesting to know what e.g. Signal did before they had VoIP support.
Holgerdaniel: The 'New message' ones are reliable.
HolgerKev: I'll look it up, it was documented somewhere (and it clearly works that way).
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danielSo figure out when a notification should actually trigger a notification, send a reliable one with a dummy body and the modify it to show the actual content
danielI don't see the problem with that
danielYou get 30s to modify it https://developer.apple.com/documentation/usernotifications/modifying_content_in_newly_delivered_notifications
danielThis only depends on the app server to figure that and then on the client to do the catchup in 30s
danielThat seems achievable
Kevs/catchup/message discovery/
KevYou might do message discovery with catchup, you might employ a different mechanism.
danielWhat ever ☺️
danielWhat ever meachism you deem fit to fetch a specific message within 30s
KevRight.
HolgerAhh, right, "Service App Extension". That's a new thing I think, IIRC Chris mentioned that.
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HolgerThat would probably do the trick indeed.
KevOk, I've spent a few minutes reading (more than I should, probably), and from what I can tell VOIP pushes will make things better because they're high priority pushes, but shouldn't be necessary for this to work.
HolgerYes yes, I forgot about that thing. Depends on a recent iOS version I think, but apart from that it's probably fine.
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danielI mean 30s is actually *a lot *
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danielI'd be worried if we only had single digit seconds
danielI mean obviously my users hate metrics and an app 'calling home'. But it'd be fun to get some numbers on the median resume and catch up time in Conversations
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pep.Guus, re prices to give to clients, I agree with jonas’ that this will probably discourage others that don't have enough time to allocate. But I also agree that it would be nice to have some kind of incentive
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Guusjonas', you here?
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jonas’kindof
jonas’Guus, what’s up?
Guusmind popping over to the iteam muc?
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GuusAnyone in here that didn't vote yet? 🙂
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Guusif so: you're now looking at your IM-client. You might as well pop off a message to memberbot.
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MattJscurries
MattJThanks for the reminder
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Link MauveThanks, I just did it!
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Guusjonas’ kindly commit that missing file 🙂
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jonas’Guus, did
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Syndacedaniel, Dino merged our pr for the 12 bytes IV already, nice ^^
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danielYes I saw that
danielNow we need to do something about chatsecure
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moparisthebestGuus: it seems like whatever prize the xsf could offer wouldn't be large enough to pay for development, so you still need a dedicated dev who wants it for themselves
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moparisthebestAnd any Dev like that doesn't want to run a crippled phone OS when they can run Android...
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moparisthebestHey if Android keeps getting worse though...
Guusmoparisthebest: prize money is an incentive, but not paying for all of the development.
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ZashThe real prize is the bragging rights for your marketing department if you win
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moparisthebestI think there are basically 2 types of devs that would do it
moparisthebestOne is with funding and a marketing plan, and it's not gonna be open, line WhatsApp etc
moparisthebestOther is Dev that wants to scratch their own itch, with capability, and using an iPhone full time
moparisthebestI don't think that second one exists
MattJIt shouldn't be overlooked that we have at least two iOS clients already
MattJIt's not necessarily a requirement to write a new one from scratch
MattJand therefore it may be feasible to fund shorter specific projects on top of existing iOS clients
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moparisthebestYea that seems more feasible
Ge0rGhttps://op-co.de/tmp/xep-0184.html#format - the "Note:" below example 4. I think I need to tune the wording some more.
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Ge0rGMaybe it's time to do some woodwork instead of writing XEPs.
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danielIf you started building a bicycle you might not be able to fix it into a car
danielEspecially not as a third party
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SamWhitedIn that case, I feel like xmpp is a bicycle car hybrid where one person keeps taking off bike parts and putting car parts on and one person is doing the opposite and others are just randomly bolting airplane parts on wherever they'll fit.
SamWhited(I missed most context there, but if I interpreted the analogy correctly my point is that I'm starting to think we need a specific mission and set of use cases)
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danielSamWhited: I was talking about clients. I think there is some truth to what you are saying in regards to the protocol but I think it's more severe when it comes to specific clients
danielA multi use protocol is not an unfixable problem imho
danielMaybe a hard one
SamWhitedah yah, that applies even better to most clients, assume I was talking about that too
jonas’there is a need for a simple way to refer to another message
jonas’references doesn’t have that use-case
jonas’can we get that specified quickly?
jonas’or alternatively rename Message Attaching, because it’s not being used for attaching apparently
ZashWhat uses it and for what then?
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jonas’Zash, see that link please
ZashWhat, read what I'm commenting on?! Unpossible!
ZashMkay
ZashDon't make me submit an <in-reply-to/>
Zashor "How to blockchain using thread/@parent"
lovetoxim not sure about this for quotation
lovetoxbut what it actually solves nicely is the case where i want to convey a url with a message
lovetoxbut i want to encrypt it
lovetoxfor oob and the sorts, full stanza encryption is necessary
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lovetoxthis would solve this nicely for omemo
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pep.Why do we have to fix everything else when we can fix omemo :(
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lovetoxdaniel said last time, in the last sprint they furhter developed the future omemo version
lovetoxso i guess it will happen sometime
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pep.When it's already too late because the other things around it have been changed?
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lovetoxits never too late for full stanza encryption
lovetoxalso it about a different wireformat to evolve from signal
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pep.Yeah there's been discussions around that this weekend as well
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pep."Furthermore, even if 3.4 covered our use case other use cases outside our scope would still have to be implemented in order to be compliant with the whole XEP.", I guess people are also often confused by this.
pep.How many people say they support MUC or Pubsub entirely :)
pep.How many people say they support MUC or Pubsub :)
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Ge0rGlovetox [20:48]:
> its never too late for full stanza encryption
Nobody expects the Full Stanza Encryption!
Ge0rGZash [20:35]:
> Don't make me submit an <in-reply-to/>
And then rewrite Receipts and LMC on top of it!
Ge0rGSee discussion in jdev@ today
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goffiDo you know this https://omemo.im/ ? The website looks like an aggregation of publicly available informations, and it claims to be open source but I don't see any source code. Smells like malicious app
lovetoxits not malicious
lovetoxit seems to link for downloads directly to other projects
lovetoxlike gajim, and zom
ZashExcept the Android one
lovetoxyes
lovetoxthats a bit weird
ZashIt links to Conversations in the footer
lovetoxbut i bet its conversations
lovetoxrelabeld
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lovetoxbut yeah, i dont know that will help the cause
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goffialso here https://www.reddit.com/r/xmpp/comments/9y3ib4/can_you_use_omemo_encryption_across_two_different/ "See omemo.im and test their server and app across yours." by somebody nicknames "omemo82", it doesn't smells good to me
goffinicknames
goffinickamed*
goffiarg
goffinicknamed*
ZashSearch for omemo.im on github turns up https://github.com/froghorn82/omemo.im
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vanitasvitaeTHe commit history is... interesting 😀
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lovetoxdont understand why people dont try to do something productive
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ZashProcrastinating makes the world go round ... later.