XSF Discussion - 2018-11-22

Sorry, not sure I'll be able to actively participate in a meeting (if there is one today)

there should be one... ok, thx for telling

aaaaand... time!

Peekaboo

ralphm, are you here too?

it'd be kind of a shame to let our last one slide ...

anway, we are "fired" tonight... 😉

I'm very likely to miss tonights election meeting, sadly

I will miss it too

I am

cool

0. Welcome + Agenda

Welcome to the last meeting of this term.

Topics?

various, see trello

possible agenda item: clean up the Trello board for the next members 😉

I actually added a couple, primarily triggered by Jonas

XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

I'll add him

wfm, and takes care of item 1 🙂

Right

Ok

1. Meeting with Peter

We almost scheduled a meeting, but I then I didn't.

If I'm reelected, I will follow up right after

If you're not, I will. If we're both not, nyco must have been, so I'm volunteering him then 😃

Haha

not possible that two of you are not

2. GSoC 2019

I think as an organisation, we'd like to participate, *when* there is somebody who'll take the lead on getting it done.

If there are any takers present, please let yourselves known. Otherwise, we should put out a request for it.

So, we'll first have to find a volunteer

so who "volunteers" who, this time? 😉

Kev did it before, so it'd make sense to name-drop him...

what is the workload?

nyco: it's not neglectible

I understand mostly paperwork, reminders, being organised

I think we're basically looking for someone who would be organisation admin, in gsoc terms

there's a lot to be done for that (to much to sum up here, but look at the GSOC website, there's loads of information there)

so we send a call for volunteer on the ML ?

Sounds good to me

3. Summit / FOSDEM

I have still not seen any announcement on stands

there is also a desire to do an XMPP Sprint around FOSDEM/Summit.

I think daniel is involved with planning that.

isn't that too much?

oh, great then

when?

wed/sat or wed/sun are *possible* options

I think we also have access to more space this time, so we can probably do breakouts

(at Cisco)

anyway, that's for SCAM, not in this meeting

I'd be nice to keep the gang together during the summit, I think?

but, what he said

also, I love the idea of doing sprints

one summit to bind them all

indeed

I don't think there's anything else to report on this

I've enquired for a Master of Ceremony, which tentatively agreed to be one.

but other than that, no, nothing to report

4. XEP-0001 Proposed->Experimental transition

I've read up on the request, which in itself made sense to me

I'm +1 on this request

I was wondering if that omission was there by design though

We can change the design

or if it is simply something that was missed

well, if it was there by design, then it must've had some reasoning behind it

Well, fortunately the Approving Body makes the final decision on taking this new transition, so I think that's good enough.

Guus: well, we've changed the transitions before. It is ok, really.

I'm not saying we can't change it 🙂

If you want additional blessing, bring it up when we talk to stpeter.

I'm just wondering why it's missing in the first place 🙂

Probably because it didn't come up.

(I don't recall it coming up in my 8 terms)

nyco?

ok, I'll bring it up in the talk with Peter, for my ease of mind 🙂

Guus: are you voting anyway?

following discussion, not disagreeing 😉

no, I'll wait for Peter's feedback.

which makes this a matter for next board... I guess?

Ok. Let the records note that we carry this over to (a) next meeting of the Board.

5. AOB?

nope

your quick reaction to my idea of launching some kind of IOS contest, perhaps?

did you guys catch that?

what?

?

basically: I'm toying with an idea to have the XSF organize some kind of XPrize-style prize for development of something that we're sorely missing today, an ios-client being an obvious, but perhaps not only, choice.

this was discussed in this MUC a couple of days ago, wondered if you guys caught it.

I missed it

makes sense

the idea is to stimulate development, to make the XMPP ecosystem more complete.

I fear difficulty may appear on the money front, but to be proven

at this stage, I primarily would like to know if the idea is worth exploring, according to you

I strongly support an attempt

Not against the idea, but needs more detail.

k, tx

6. Date of Next

nope

😉

we let "them" decide

As a handover, I suggest holding a meeting a week from now again.

ah, ok, then I'm in, +1W

Even if I'd not be elected, I'd still be chair, so that's ok for me to schedule :-D

one of the board candidates is from the US, which might not be up by then. 🙂

So penciling it in.

7.

Close

bye, team 😉

I'd like to thank everyone on the 2018/2019 Board and Council for past year's effords. Curious about the election results.

Cheers!

likewise

yeah, merci beaucoup

aaaaand, who sends the minutes?

XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

nyco: I think you just volunteered.

Guus: a word popped up in my mind earlier today: swag.

I'm fresh out, and meaning to order

but I only have design for stickers, I think

so, if you have more ideas/designs... by all means.

I want a Jabber™ hoodie.

look, a volunteer for making a design 🙂

are we selling swag again, or just having giveaways this year?

as I think most, if not all, of our inventory has been sold in last years?

I have a preference for selling, but needs effort

oh, yeah, maybe you guys should all sign up for joining in our wiki 🙂

We have no inventory left

the wiki doesn't work well on mobile.

https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/FOSDEM_2019 https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_23

hattip to Seve for creating those pages

Ge0rG: It is highly unlikely that we will have Jabber™ hoodies made.

can we, license wise?

There've also been requests last year to have other things than hoodies. Kev and dwd might have ideas.

Guus: yes

did memberbot go down?

Alex ^

(it is up for me, I think)

memberbot works for me as well

memberbot is up and responsive to me

yep working again, though I just got on gajim and it has an angry face and under construction emoji as a name has that always been there?

haven't noticed, but that doesn't say much.

for the second time it froze after I cast my first vote for board...

maybe Gajim froze?

maybe I'm breaking it somehow, first time I was using conversations, now gajim

I've had zero problems with Converse, and Conversations a few elections back.

neither have I

moparisthebest: those are User Activity and User Mood icons.

does it normally have those? :)

Well, has had them for a long time

‎[10:15:55 AM] ‎SleekXMPP got into trouble.

there finally got an error to show up in gajim

that's after I cast my first vote for board

moparisthebest: the User Mood is 'serious' and the Activity is 'working'

if it resets and responds to me again I can try to capture some XML, but uh, who can check up on it? :/

Alex

moparisthebest, you can also vote in the meeting later at 19:00Z

so if memberbot hates you for some reason...

I always missed the live meetings.

anyone from jabber.de who sent me a subscritpion request?

jonas’: Thanksgiving in US today so will be eating then :)

moparisthebest, hah, right

moparisthebest, I pinged him out-of-band, maybe that helps.

I emailed my votes to him and he responded so I'm fine

ah ok

Memberbot crashing is another story :)

woah

git merge silently puts a revision block added in one branch of the xeps repo below revision blocks which were added later on

that’s... something to be aware of

What does that mean?

practically, it means that editors must be extremely cautious when merging multiple branches affecting the same XEP

example: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/commit/945652bf33b9c98ec7b8670cad7766669a91cebf

this should’ve been a conflict, because the original commit (which was being merged here, see <https://github.com/xsf/xeps/commit/cd8d05a6605ed742419a036c185ada9d174ba5fe>) added the 1.15.3 block to the top of the list (where other blocks have been added in the meantime)

I don’t see how this is *not* a conflict

but instead, git silently merged that by ordering the "new" revision block below the existing ones

Well, fuzziness is always tricky. In this case it just looked at the bottom of the patch chunk

Found a match

I don’t think that’s a valid thing to do in the general case

And cleanly applied

ignore the top part entirely

it’s clear what techincally happened, but I don’t think this is correct behaviour

So I guess there could be a script to test for such inconsistencies

yes, I think we might need that

Which would let you know before the merge

he guys, I think its member meeting time ;-)

\o/

okay, lets kick it off

(Y)

here is our Agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-11-22

1) Call for Quorum

wait, top four candidates for board?

why not five?

as you can see 35 members vote via proxy, memberbot and email

> The top 4 candidates will comprise the Board for 2017-2018. There is a tie for position #5 which will be resolvde after the meeting using random selection as defined n RFC 3797. (also the year number is off; sorry to interrupt you)

sorry, copy and paste error ;-)

its corrected now

don't know the results yet ;-)

2) Items Subject to a Vote

board and council elections, you can see all the applicants here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2018

3) Opportunity for XSF members to Vote in the Meeting

anyone here who has not vited yet and wants to do so now?

otherwise I shutdown memberbot

3

2

1

nobody

shutting down the bot and start counting

Begin drumroll!

Drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Rollllll

rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

umm

Now you're just purring...

It's a roll people.

rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

A people roll?

I'm so excited!

4) Announcement of Voting Results

when you reload the page you can see the results:

https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-11-22#Announcement_of_Voting_Results

https://upload.ik.nu/upload/sWP4vkMui9-SV4PJ/3dob7HDPRR-q_18Bl63t-g.jpg

congrats to the (other) elected folks :)

Grats

Top 5 board: Ralph Meijer Matthew Wild Guus der Kinderen Severino Ferrer de la Peñita Nicolas Vérité

🎉

and council is easy this time ;-)

Dave Cridland Georg Lukas Emmanuel Gil Peyrot Kevin Smith Jonas Schäfer

🎉

😍

🎉

congrats to everyone, and thank for applying

🥂

Thanks Alex

Thanks Alex!

Alex, thanks for chairing this meeting and doing all the work :-)

you#re welcome

5) Any other Business?

Georg Lukas is this a bad joke?

j.r, that’s Ge0rG’s full legal name AFAIK ✏

(that doesn’t preclude that it’s a bad joke made by his parents though)

My legal name is a bad joke. Yay.

jonas’: the opinions vary on that.

I like it :)

Alex: I think we're good.

6) Formal Adjournment

Ge0rG: Not so bad at all

I motion that we adjourn

fine with me, Alex

thanks (Y)

Thanks Alex!

\o/

How many members do we have, by the way? Isn't membership election due soon?

Thanks Alex

Ge0rG, 49

> The XSF has 49 elected members as of this date.

(quoting the minutes)

Ge0rG, and, yes: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q4_2018 ✏

So 71% participation in the vote, that's great.

December 2nd

will send out some reminders soon

Somehow I anticipated us being larger

somehow I anticipated the participation to be worse

FWIW: I was actually sitting behind my drums (picture) and have a gavel and gong.

looked at the records today, many members did not reapply in the last 12 month

ralphm, next time I expect a livestream.

https://upload.ik.nu/upload/893VhXpFBrmNbaaf/GrnORgQQT8egDKItfT2V1w.jpg

:)

Nice

ralphm: so you are making a *badumtss* on every bad joke?

Yes

Like when somebody mentions my full name? 😢

Nah

I’m starting the thing that an xml notation for message styling / markup wouldn’t be the worst idea. but i don’t want the full feature set of xhtml-im. It can borrow html5 vocabulary but i want the feature set to be limited to something that message styling and message markup offer. so probably something like <strong>, <em>, <pre>

*think

this is going to re-invent the XHTML-IM wheel.

maybe. but if it is limited to 5 elements w/o any attributes people might not attempt to reuse browser renderers

people will always attempt stupid things

xhml is just soo complicated. i don’t think anyone but Link Mauve ever wrote a renderer for it

and that one probably isn’t even complete

how about re-defining the XHTML subset used by XHTML-IM?

Didn't it have profiles already?

it used XHTML profiles I think

i mean it has freaking css in it

daniel, uh, a lot of people have.

There are in all of the 2000s clients.

libpurple probably has one with an RCE even.

And the CSS parts it has are very small, nothing like CSS level 2.

putting css in there breaks with the whole let's use xml idea

ah, yes

It’s also optional.

it doesn’t make sense to use css

strip the CSS then

that’s a good point

more like 90ies HTML with stuff like <font color="xyz"/>

The mod_xhtml I made for Prosody can do that

jonas’: Like how SVG works now? :)

“23:02:20 jonas’> it used XHTML profiles I think”, no, it defines profiles of XHTML, which is very different.

Link Mauve, ah right

also if it is called xhtml-*IM* why does it have shit like headline

Zash, pretty much

i understand the use for blogs and stuff

but IM?

daniel, rich text bots

daniel: Throw it out!

who’s going to put headlines in messages

µblogging

daniel, one of the reasons the company I work for swtiched away from XMPP was that they wanted fancy alert messages

daniel: People write forum posts in messages sometimes

... but clients lacked proper support for that

or maybe I should’ve tried more

daniel, again, nothing forces you to implement the entire list of profiles defined in XHTML-IM.

whatever

Nothing will break if you don’t render a <h1/> a bit bigger than normal text.

I think the biggest concern with XHTML-IM is that people just throw it at their favorite HTML renderer, opening up all kinds of security issues. No matter what subset.

jonas’: I'm not sure fancy notifications should require all of XHTML. Eg Slack doesn't do that .. does it?

Fancier than plain text messages, sure

ralphm, people will do that, no matter what the input format.

I’ve seen more RCE using User Nickname in the wild.

Simply because “it’s a nickname, so plain text, what could possibly happen if I use innerHTML?”

Zash, I’ve seen headings and other markdown-like formatting

ralphm, we had that discussion for a month or so a year back

As for what Slack does, I think that's mostly XEP-393.

I know this

I didn't restart it today

jonas’: `<subject>` :)

Zash, subheadings

jonas’: nyeh

Headings used to make more sense with the email-like UI of normal messages in the likes of Psi and Gajim.

well i like 0393 as an input format and i think it is enough for a feature set

Where you may have wanted full formatting.

daniel, I agree with you for non-automated beings in the IM use-case :) ✏

daniel, yup, no issue with that.

daniel: indeed

but I think it might make sense to transmit the feature set of 393 as xml

Why?

ralphm, interoperability with other input markups.

daniel, tbh, I’d prefer if we could re-vive XHTML-IM instead of inventing our own vocabulary.

ralphm, by transfering the input format you can never really remove the formatting because the client doesn’t know if it is formatting

(and define a subset which is equivalent to 393)

parsing the input format to xml and using that could solve that

also, this is what I told you folks a year ago already >.>

if we’re going to define our own vocabulary, people will still come up with unsafe hacks to put it into an XHTML renderer directly

jonas’, well the vocabulary i suggested was html5 which for those cases should be the same as xhtml

indeed

The un-safety was always in having a renderer that also executes arbitrary code, not the wire format.

well i can get on board with an xhtml-im-light that is limited to what 0393 can input

So what Slack *actually* does, I think, is parsing the plaintext server side as per 393, and then send a marked up message back, including references.

daniel, XHTML-IM is already that, tbh.

if you want to do that in the same xep or not i don’t care

Except it doesn’t have disco#info features telling others what you actually do support.

That's why Flow came up with https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/bmh.html, no?

https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0071.html#profile-summary the current recommended set is a bit bigger than what you suggest, but I don’t see much to remove from it.

Link Mauve, for starters, @style should go out of the window.

It mostly just adds lists, images, links and CSS.

Oh, and quotes.

(393 has quotes)

that profile lacks code though

Indeed, that would be a useful addition. ✏

now, if we had namespaced attributes...

There is one, just in this list. :p

(thinking of stuff like <code xhtml-im:language="c"/>)

yeah, xml:lang doesn’t count

I’ve used a @class hack for that in the past.

I'd like bold, italic, strike, literal inline, literal block, bullet list and quotes.

Strike requires CSS if we keep it to XHTML-IM.

ralphm: "literal inline" ?

No color, I think, no font choices, so I guess no css.

Yes, like `this`.

ralphm: So <code>-ish?

Link Mauve, <del/>?

Isn’t that <code/>?

Versus: ``` Block of literal. ```.

jonas’, oh, indeed.

ralphm, <pre><code/></pre>.

Link Mauve, although I’m not 100% convinced that <del/> has the right s emantics

we need a markdown extension ;-)

“The HTML <del> element represents a range of text that has been deleted from a document. This can be used when rendering "track changes" or source code diff information, for example.”

Yeah, one block, one inline. That's the HTML terminology.

Alex: Bother your client about markdown to xhtml-im support? :)

Alex, no, we need to allow clients to use Markdown as an input format, and transmit it in some standard way (*hint* XHTML-IM) over the wire.

<code xml:lang="c">int main (void) { }</code> mouhahhaaha

Zash, that hurt me a little.

Markdown is like RSS. There are many dialects and bad interop.

That’s something which can’t be done using XEP-0393 due to incompatibilities in the markup used.

That's why Slack says they don't support it.

ralphm, hence why clients should be able to pick the one they like, and convert it to XHTML-IM.

what I do not like in HTML-IM is that you need to validate for allowed tags and scripts

fun fact: with namespaced attributes we could get references right

jonas’: We need to get computer languages their own language tags!

otherwise clients are volnerable

Alex: you need to validate any format

Alex, no, you need to pick a subset and convert it to whichever rendering library you’re using.

Alex: And you are aware that Markdown allows HTML pass-through?

That’s very different from validation.

Alex, not really. only if you pass the XHTML-IM 1:1 to the (code executing) renderer. If you did what you would do for any other format (parse and re-emit as HTML), it would be fine.

Zash: and that

jonas’, let’s just use namespaced attributes, and see what breaks!

I’d bet on not much, if anything.

The real problem is the distinct lackof a renderer without mandatory JS support and remote content fetching

(thinking of <body xmlns="xhtml" xmlns:xhtml-im="..."><span xhtml-im:id="abc">@Link Mauve</span></body><references><ref id="abc"><jid>linkmauve@...</jid></ref></references>)

although that could probably also be solved with some href actually

but you get the idea

(same for blockquotes for example)

jonas’, looks very nice, but @id already exists in XHTML, we could just add it to the profile.

Link Mauve, @id is even in XML and has some semantics I’m afraid

@xml:id is different from @xhtml:id in semantics.

Here, you create a new XHTML document in each message (possibly more than one even, with @xml:lang).

right

that could actually work

So you could perfectly use @xhtml:id.

and the @xhtml:id needs to be unique anyways for references to work... or does it?

Let’s keep it simple. :)

ok :)

which client are you working on?

Personally, at the moment mostly Converse (when I’ll stop being ill), but I don’t have a fixed client to work on, I just do what I feel is useful.

I should submit the XEP for the thing I did with JabberCat at some point

alright, heading to bed, tele-type to you later ;-)

Zash, what did you do?

Link Mauve: BUTTON!

!