XSF Discussion - 2018-11-22


  1. ThibG has joined

  2. Zash has left

  3. Zash has left

  4. lskdjf has joined

  5. jjrh has left

  6. matlag has left

  7. blabla has joined

  8. labdsf has left

  9. labdsf has joined

  10. labdsf has left

  11. labdsf has joined

  12. rtq3 has joined

  13. rtq3 has left

  14. j.r has joined

  15. lskdjf has joined

  16. j.r has joined

  17. UsL has left

  18. UsL has joined

  19. l has left

  20. j.r has joined

  21. j.r has joined

  22. vanitasvitae has left

  23. vanitasvitae has joined

  24. efrit has left

  25. jjrh has left

  26. l has left

  27. l has joined

  28. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  29. waqas has left

  30. waqas has joined

  31. vanitasvitae has left

  32. vanitasvitae has joined

  33. lskdjf has left

  34. moparisthebest has left

  35. waqas has left

  36. waqas has joined

  37. waqas has left

  38. jjrh has left

  39. l has left

  40. Neustradamus has left

  41. moparisthebest has joined

  42. j.r has joined

  43. j.r has joined

  44. j.r has left

  45. j.r has joined

  46. Nekit has joined

  47. j.r has joined

  48. j.r has joined

  49. labdsf has left

  50. Str4tocaster has joined

  51. Str4tocaster has left

  52. Str4tocaster has joined

  53. j.r has joined

  54. j.r has joined

  55. Str4tocaster has left

  56. lskdjf has left

  57. lskdjf has joined

  58. labdsf has joined

  59. lorddavidiii has joined

  60. lorddavidiii has left

  61. Tobias has joined

  62. Yagiza has joined

  63. j.r has left

  64. andy has joined

  65. labdsf has left

  66. waqas has joined

  67. Str4tocaster has left

  68. Str4tocaster has joined

  69. Str4tocaster has left

  70. Str4tocaster has joined

  71. Str4tocaster has left

  72. Str4tocaster has joined

  73. Guus has left

  74. Str4tocaster has left

  75. Str4tocaster has joined

  76. Str4tocaster has left

  77. Str4tocaster has joined

  78. lovetox has joined

  79. guusdk has left

  80. guusdk has joined

  81. Guus has joined

  82. Str4tocaster has left

  83. Str4tocaster has joined

  84. flow has left

  85. flow has joined

  86. Str4tocaster has left

  87. Str4tocaster has joined

  88. Str4tocaster has left

  89. Str4tocaster has joined

  90. valo has left

  91. valo has joined

  92. Str4tocaster has left

  93. flow has left

  94. Str4tocaster has joined

  95. Nekit has joined

  96. andrey.g has left

  97. labdsf has joined

  98. waqas has left

  99. Steve Kille has left

  100. jjrh has left

  101. labdsf has left

  102. jjrh has left

  103. labdsf has joined

  104. mimi89999 has joined

  105. Maranda has joined

  106. Steve Kille has joined

  107. lorddavidiii has joined

  108. rion has joined

  109. mimi89999 has left

  110. lorddavidiii has left

  111. Alex has joined

  112. guusdk has left

  113. lorddavidiii has joined

  114. labdsf has left

  115. guusdk has left

  116. guusdk has joined

  117. daniel has left

  118. daniel has joined

  119. daniel has left

  120. daniel has joined

  121. Alex has left

  122. Alex has joined

  123. daniel has left

  124. daniel has joined

  125. goffi has joined

  126. daniel has left

  127. daniel has joined

  128. daniel has left

  129. daniel has joined

  130. labdsf has joined

  131. guusdk has left

  132. guusdk has left

  133. Maranda has joined

  134. genofire has left

  135. Alex has left

  136. labdsf has left

  137. labdsf has joined

  138. efrit has joined

  139. blabla has left

  140. blabla has joined

  141. goffi has joined

  142. goffi has joined

  143. flow has joined

  144. Str4tocaster has left

  145. Str4tocaster has joined

  146. efrit has left

  147. Str4tocaster has left

  148. Str4tocaster has joined

  149. Ge0rG has left

  150. labdsf has left

  151. Str4tocaster has left

  152. Str4tocaster has joined

  153. Str4tocaster has left

  154. Str4tocaster has joined

  155. Str4tocaster has left

  156. Str4tocaster has joined

  157. rion has left

  158. Str4tocaster has left

  159. Str4tocaster has joined

  160. Str4tocaster has left

  161. Str4tocaster has joined

  162. j.r has joined

  163. Str4tocaster has left

  164. Str4tocaster has joined

  165. Str4tocaster has left

  166. Str4tocaster has joined

  167. labdsf has joined

  168. Str4tocaster has left

  169. Str4tocaster has joined

  170. Str4tocaster has left

  171. Str4tocaster has joined

  172. Str4tocaster has left

  173. Str4tocaster has joined

  174. Str4tocaster has left

  175. Str4tocaster has joined

  176. Str4tocaster has left

  177. Str4tocaster has joined

  178. guusdk has left

  179. guusdk has joined

  180. Str4tocaster has left

  181. j.r has joined

  182. andrey.g has joined

  183. Str4tocaster has joined

  184. Str4tocaster has left

  185. Str4tocaster has joined

  186. Holger has left

  187. lovetox has left

  188. APach has left

  189. lorddavidiii has left

  190. Nekit has joined

  191. vanitasvitae has left

  192. vanitasvitae has joined

  193. lorddavidiii has joined

  194. mimi89999 has joined

  195. lorddavidiii has left

  196. ThibG has joined

  197. lorddavidiii has joined

  198. ThibG has joined

  199. Ge0rG has joined

  200. Alex has left

  201. j.r has joined

  202. Nekit has left

  203. daniel has left

  204. Alex has joined

  205. efrit has joined

  206. daniel has left

  207. Nekit has joined

  208. vinx55 has joined

  209. j.r has joined

  210. Zash has joined

  211. vinx55 has left

  212. vinx55 has joined

  213. vanitasvitae has left

  214. vanitasvitae has joined

  215. Holger has left

  216. efrit has left

  217. guusdk has left

  218. guusdk has joined

  219. alexde has joined

  220. Holger has left

  221. efrit has joined

  222. vinx55 has left

  223. Str4tocaster has left

  224. Str4tocaster has joined

  225. moparisthebest has joined

  226. ThibG has joined

  227. j.r has joined

  228. Yagiza has left

  229. Yagiza has joined

  230. Str4tocaster has left

  231. Str4tocaster has joined

  232. Str4tocaster has left

  233. Str4tocaster has joined

  234. Str4tocaster has left

  235. Str4tocaster has joined

  236. 404.city has joined

  237. daniel has left

  238. j.r has joined

  239. Str4tocaster has left

  240. Str4tocaster has joined

  241. Str4tocaster has left

  242. Str4tocaster has joined

  243. matlag has left

  244. APach has left

  245. Str4tocaster has left

  246. efrit has left

  247. Alex has left

  248. Str4tocaster has joined

  249. APach has left

  250. Str4tocaster has left

  251. Str4tocaster has joined

  252. j.r has joined

  253. Str4tocaster has left

  254. Str4tocaster has joined

  255. Str4tocaster has left

  256. Str4tocaster has joined

  257. moparisthebest has joined

  258. l has joined

  259. l has joined

  260. moparisthebest has joined

  261. lovetox has joined

  262. Str4tocaster has left

  263. Str4tocaster has joined

  264. Str4tocaster has left

  265. Str4tocaster has joined

  266. Nekit has left

  267. Str4tocaster has left

  268. j.r has joined

  269. Str4tocaster has joined

  270. ThibG has left

  271. Str4tocaster has left

  272. ThibG has joined

  273. Str4tocaster has joined

  274. genofire has left

  275. Str4tocaster has left

  276. Str4tocaster has joined

  277. Nekit has joined

  278. blabla has joined

  279. Str4tocaster has left

  280. Str4tocaster has joined

  281. Str4tocaster has left

  282. Str4tocaster has joined

  283. blabla has left

  284. Str4tocaster has left

  285. matlag has left

  286. Str4tocaster has joined

  287. Str4tocaster has left

  288. Str4tocaster has joined

  289. winfried has left

  290. winfried has joined

  291. Str4tocaster has left

  292. Str4tocaster has joined

  293. lskdjf has left

  294. Alex has joined

  295. Str4tocaster has left

  296. efrit has joined

  297. Str4tocaster has joined

  298. Str4tocaster has left

  299. Str4tocaster has joined

  300. SamWhited has left

  301. SamWhited has joined

  302. matlag has left

  303. ThibG has left

  304. ThibG has joined

  305. Zash has left

  306. Yagiza has left

  307. Yagiza has joined

  308. Str4tocaster has left

  309. Str4tocaster has joined

  310. blabla has joined

  311. Str4tocaster has left

  312. moparisthebest has joined

  313. MattJ has joined

  314. moparisthebest has joined

  315. MattJ has left

  316. 404.city has left

  317. MattJ has left

  318. MattJ

    Sorry, not sure I'll be able to actively participate in a meeting (if there is one today)

  319. Andrew Nenakhov has left

  320. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  321. nyco

    there should be one... ok, thx for telling

  322. 404.city has joined

  323. nyco

    aaaaand... time!

  324. Guus

    Peekaboo

  325. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  326. Guus

    ralphm, are you here too?

  327. Guus

    it'd be kind of a shame to let our last one slide ...

  328. nyco

    anway, we are "fired" tonight... 😉

  329. Andrew Nenakhov has joined

  330. Guus

    I'm very likely to miss tonights election meeting, sadly

  331. nyco

    I will miss it too

  332. ralphm

    I am

  333. ralphm bangs gavel

  334. nyco

    cool

  335. Yagiza has left

  336. ralphm

    0. Welcome + Agenda

  337. ralphm

    Welcome to the last meeting of this term.

  338. moparisthebest has left

  339. ralphm

    Topics?

  340. Guus

    various, see trello

  341. nyco

    possible agenda item: clean up the Trello board for the next members 😉

  342. Guus

    I actually added a couple, primarily triggered by Jonas

  343. moparisthebest has joined

  344. ralphm set the topic to

    XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  345. ralphm

    I'll add him

  346. !xsf_martin has joined

  347. Yagiza has joined

  348. Guus

    wfm, and takes care of item 1 🙂

  349. ralphm

    Right

  350. ralphm

    Ok

  351. ralphm

    1. Meeting with Peter

  352. ralphm

    We almost scheduled a meeting, but I then I didn't.

  353. ralphm

    If I'm reelected, I will follow up right after

  354. Guus

    If you're not, I will. If we're both not, nyco must have been, so I'm volunteering him then 😃

  355. ralphm

    Haha

  356. nyco

    not possible that two of you are not

  357. ralphm

    2. GSoC 2019

  358. ralphm

    I think as an organisation, we'd like to participate, *when* there is somebody who'll take the lead on getting it done.

  359. andy has left

  360. ralphm

    If there are any takers present, please let yourselves known. Otherwise, we should put out a request for it.

  361. Guus

    So, we'll first have to find a volunteer

  362. nyco

    so who "volunteers" who, this time? 😉

  363. Guus

    Kev did it before, so it'd make sense to name-drop him...

  364. nyco

    what is the workload?

  365. Guus

    nyco: it's not neglectible

  366. nyco

    I understand mostly paperwork, reminders, being organised

  367. Guus

    I think we're basically looking for someone who would be organisation admin, in gsoc terms

  368. Guus

    there's a lot to be done for that (to much to sum up here, but look at the GSOC website, there's loads of information there)

  369. nyco

    so we send a call for volunteer on the ML ?

  370. Guus

    Sounds good to me

  371. j.r has joined

  372. ralphm

    3. Summit / FOSDEM

  373. ralphm

    I have still not seen any announcement on stands

  374. APach has left

  375. !xsf_martin has left

  376. Ge0rG

    there is also a desire to do an XMPP Sprint around FOSDEM/Summit.

  377. Ge0rG

    I think daniel is involved with planning that.

  378. nyco

    isn't that too much?

  379. nyco

    oh, great then

  380. nyco

    when?

  381. Ge0rG

    wed/sat or wed/sun are *possible* options

  382. ralphm

    I think we also have access to more space this time, so we can probably do breakouts

  383. ralphm

    (at Cisco)

  384. ralphm

    anyway, that's for SCAM, not in this meeting

  385. Guus

    I'd be nice to keep the gang together during the summit, I think?

  386. Guus

    but, what he said

  387. Guus

    also, I love the idea of doing sprints

  388. nyco

    one summit to bind them all

  389. nyco

    indeed

  390. ralphm

    I don't think there's anything else to report on this

  391. Guus

    I've enquired for a Master of Ceremony, which tentatively agreed to be one.

  392. Guus

    but other than that, no, nothing to report

  393. ralphm

    4. XEP-0001 Proposed->Experimental transition

  394. Guus

    I've read up on the request, which in itself made sense to me

  395. ralphm

    I'm +1 on this request

  396. Guus

    I was wondering if that omission was there by design though

  397. ralphm

    We can change the design

  398. Guus

    or if it is simply something that was missed

  399. Guus

    well, if it was there by design, then it must've had some reasoning behind it

  400. ralphm

    Well, fortunately the Approving Body makes the final decision on taking this new transition, so I think that's good enough.

  401. ralphm

    Guus: well, we've changed the transitions before. It is ok, really.

  402. Guus

    I'm not saying we can't change it 🙂

  403. ralphm

    If you want additional blessing, bring it up when we talk to stpeter.

  404. Guus

    I'm just wondering why it's missing in the first place 🙂

  405. ralphm

    Probably because it didn't come up.

  406. ralphm

    (I don't recall it coming up in my 8 terms)

  407. ralphm

    nyco?

  408. Guus

    ok, I'll bring it up in the talk with Peter, for my ease of mind 🙂

  409. ralphm

    Guus: are you voting anyway?

  410. nyco

    following discussion, not disagreeing 😉

  411. Guus

    no, I'll wait for Peter's feedback.

  412. Guus

    which makes this a matter for next board... I guess?

  413. ralphm

    Ok. Let the records note that we carry this over to (a) next meeting of the Board.

  414. waqas has joined

  415. ralphm

    5. AOB?

  416. nyco

    nope

  417. Guus

    your quick reaction to my idea of launching some kind of IOS contest, perhaps?

  418. Guus

    did you guys catch that?

  419. nyco

    what?

  420. ralphm

    ?

  421. Guus

    basically: I'm toying with an idea to have the XSF organize some kind of XPrize-style prize for development of something that we're sorely missing today, an ios-client being an obvious, but perhaps not only, choice.

  422. Guus

    this was discussed in this MUC a couple of days ago, wondered if you guys caught it.

  423. nyco

    I missed it

  424. nyco

    makes sense

  425. Guus

    the idea is to stimulate development, to make the XMPP ecosystem more complete.

  426. nyco

    I fear difficulty may appear on the money front, but to be proven

  427. Guus

    at this stage, I primarily would like to know if the idea is worth exploring, according to you

  428. nyco

    I strongly support an attempt

  429. ralphm

    Not against the idea, but needs more detail.

  430. Guus

    k, tx

  431. ralphm

    6. Date of Next

  432. nyco

    nope

  433. nyco

    😉

  434. nyco

    we let "them" decide

  435. ralphm

    As a handover, I suggest holding a meeting a week from now again.

  436. nyco

    ah, ok, then I'm in, +1W

  437. ralphm

    Even if I'd not be elected, I'd still be chair, so that's ok for me to schedule :-D

  438. Guus

    one of the board candidates is from the US, which might not be up by then. 🙂

  439. ralphm

    So penciling it in.

  440. ralphm

    7.

  441. ralphm

    Close

  442. nyco

    bye, team 😉

  443. ralphm

    I'd like to thank everyone on the 2018/2019 Board and Council for past year's effords. Curious about the election results.

  444. ralphm

    Cheers!

  445. Guus

    likewise

  446. nyco

    yeah, merci beaucoup

  447. ralphm bangs gavel

  448. nyco

    aaaaand, who sends the minutes?

  449. ralphm set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  450. ralphm

    nyco: I think you just volunteered.

  451. efrit has left

  452. efrit has joined

  453. ralphm

    Guus: a word popped up in my mind earlier today: swag.

  454. efrit has joined

  455. Guus

    I'm fresh out, and meaning to order

  456. Guus

    but I only have design for stickers, I think

  457. Guus

    so, if you have more ideas/designs... by all means.

  458. Ge0rG

    I want a Jabber™ hoodie.

  459. Guus

    look, a volunteer for making a design 🙂

  460. Guus

    are we selling swag again, or just having giveaways this year?

  461. Guus

    as I think most, if not all, of our inventory has been sold in last years?

  462. nyco

    I have a preference for selling, but needs effort

  463. vanitasvitae has left

  464. Guus

    oh, yeah, maybe you guys should all sign up for joining in our wiki 🙂

  465. ralphm

    We have no inventory left

  466. Nekit has left

  467. Ge0rG

    the wiki doesn't work well on mobile.

  468. Guus

    https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/FOSDEM_2019 https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_23

  469. Guus

    hattip to Seve for creating those pages

  470. ralphm

    Ge0rG: It is highly unlikely that we will have Jabber™ hoodies made.

  471. Guus

    can we, license wise?

  472. ralphm

    There've also been requests last year to have other things than hoodies. Kev and dwd might have ideas.

  473. ralphm

    Guus: yes

  474. moparisthebest

    did memberbot go down?

  475. nyco has left

  476. ralphm

    Alex ^

  477. ralphm

    (it is up for me, I think)

  478. Ge0rG

    memberbot works for me as well

  479. Guus

    memberbot is up and responsive to me

  480. Nekit has joined

  481. jjrh has left

  482. moparisthebest

    yep working again, though I just got on gajim and it has an angry face and under construction emoji as a name has that always been there?

  483. efrit has left

  484. Yagiza has left

  485. Guus

    haven't noticed, but that doesn't say much.

  486. moparisthebest

    for the second time it froze after I cast my first vote for board...

  487. Ge0rG

    maybe Gajim froze?

  488. moparisthebest

    maybe I'm breaking it somehow, first time I was using conversations, now gajim

  489. Yagiza has joined

  490. Guus

    I've had zero problems with Converse, and Conversations a few elections back.

  491. moparisthebest

    neither have I

  492. ralphm

    moparisthebest: those are User Activity and User Mood icons.

  493. moparisthebest

    does it normally have those? :)

  494. ralphm

    Well, has had them for a long time

  495. moparisthebest has left

  496. ralphm has left

  497. moparisthebest

    ‎[10:15:55 AM] ‎SleekXMPP got into trouble.

  498. moparisthebest

    there finally got an error to show up in gajim

  499. moparisthebest

    that's after I cast my first vote for board

  500. ralphm

    moparisthebest: the User Mood is 'serious' and the Activity is 'working'

  501. moparisthebest

    if it resets and responds to me again I can try to capture some XML, but uh, who can check up on it? :/

  502. nyco has left

  503. jjrh has left

  504. ralphm

    Alex

  505. Nekit has left

  506. Nekit has joined

  507. jjrh has left

  508. j.r has joined

  509. l has left

  510. l has left

  511. lnj has joined

  512. lovetox has left

  513. ThibG has joined

  514. blabla has joined

  515. Guus has left

  516. efrit has joined

  517. l has left

  518. guusdk has left

  519. guusdk has joined

  520. waqas has left

  521. waqas has joined

  522. guusdk has left

  523. nyco has left

  524. Holger has left

  525. efrit has left

  526. vanitasvitae has left

  527. guusdk has left

  528. guusdk has joined

  529. Maranda has joined

  530. jjrh has left

  531. genofire has left

  532. !xsf_martin has joined

  533. jjrh has left

  534. moparisthebest has joined

  535. !xsf_martin has left

  536. labdsf has left

  537. !xsf_martin has joined

  538. jonas’

    moparisthebest, you can also vote in the meeting later at 19:00Z

  539. jonas’

    so if memberbot hates you for some reason...

  540. Ge0rG

    I always missed the live meetings.

  541. blabla has joined

  542. vanitasvitae has left

  543. j.r has joined

  544. Steve Kille has left

  545. Steve Kille has left

  546. jonas’

    anyone from jabber.de who sent me a subscritpion request?

  547. !xsf_martin has left

  548. !xsf_martin has joined

  549. genofire has left

  550. Alex has left

  551. jjrh has left

  552. blabla has joined

  553. moparisthebest

    jonas’: Thanksgiving in US today so will be eating then :)

  554. jjrh has left

  555. jonas’

    moparisthebest, hah, right

  556. jonas’

    moparisthebest, I pinged him out-of-band, maybe that helps.

  557. moparisthebest

    I emailed my votes to him and he responded so I'm fine

  558. jonas’

    ah ok

  559. moparisthebest

    Memberbot crashing is another story :)

  560. jonas’

    woah

  561. Alex has left

  562. jonas’

    git merge silently puts a revision block added in one branch of the xeps repo below revision blocks which were added later on

  563. jonas’

    that’s... something to be aware of

  564. APach has left

  565. vanitasvitae has joined

  566. labdsf has joined

  567. lskdjf has left

  568. Steve Kille has joined

  569. guusdk has left

  570. guusdk has joined

  571. matlag has left

  572. Zash has left

  573. matlag has left

  574. jjrh has left

  575. marc has joined

  576. !xsf_martin has left

  577. tux has left

  578. lskdjf has left

  579. j.r has left

  580. Steve Kille has left

  581. lskdjf has joined

  582. ta has left

  583. ta has joined

  584. j.r has joined

  585. lskdjf has joined

  586. lskdjf has left

  587. lskdjf has joined

  588. ThibG has joined

  589. ralphm

    What does that mean?

  590. jonas’

    practically, it means that editors must be extremely cautious when merging multiple branches affecting the same XEP

  591. jonas’

    example: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/commit/945652bf33b9c98ec7b8670cad7766669a91cebf

  592. jonas’

    this should’ve been a conflict, because the original commit (which was being merged here, see <https://github.com/xsf/xeps/commit/cd8d05a6605ed742419a036c185ada9d174ba5fe>) added the 1.15.3 block to the top of the list (where other blocks have been added in the meantime)

  593. jonas’

    I don’t see how this is *not* a conflict

  594. jonas’

    but instead, git silently merged that by ordering the "new" revision block below the existing ones

  595. ralphm

    Well, fuzziness is always tricky. In this case it just looked at the bottom of the patch chunk

  596. ralphm

    Found a match

  597. jonas’

    I don’t think that’s a valid thing to do in the general case

  598. ralphm

    And cleanly applied

  599. jonas’

    ignore the top part entirely

  600. labdsf has left

  601. labdsf has joined

  602. lskdjf has joined

  603. jonas’

    it’s clear what techincally happened, but I don’t think this is correct behaviour

  604. ralphm

    So I guess there could be a script to test for such inconsistencies

  605. jonas’

    yes, I think we might need that

  606. ralphm

    Which would let you know before the merge

  607. labdsf has left

  608. labdsf has joined

  609. lovetox has joined

  610. lskdjf has joined

  611. Alex has joined

  612. 404.city has left

  613. 404.city has joined

  614. marc has left

  615. lumi has joined

  616. moparisthebest has left

  617. moparisthebest has joined

  618. marc has joined

  619. lskdjf has joined

  620. vanitasvitae has left

  621. vanitasvitae has left

  622. Nekit has left

  623. Nekit has joined

  624. guusdk has left

  625. Alex

    he guys, I think its member meeting time ;-)

  626. jonas’ is here

  627. guusdk has joined

  628. ralphm waves

  629. Zash

    \o/

  630. Alex

    okay, lets kick it off

  631. ralphm bangs the gavel for Alex

  632. Alex

    (Y)

  633. Alex

    here is our Agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-11-22

  634. Alex

    1) Call for Quorum

  635. jonas’

    wait, top four candidates for board?

  636. jonas’

    why not five?

  637. Alex

    as you can see 35 members vote via proxy, memberbot and email

  638. jonas’

    > The top 4 candidates will comprise the Board for 2017-2018. There is a tie for position #5 which will be resolvde after the meeting using random selection as defined n RFC 3797. (also the year number is off; sorry to interrupt you)

  639. labdsf has left

  640. Alex

    sorry, copy and paste error ;-)

  641. Alex

    its corrected now

  642. Maranda has joined

  643. Alex

    don't know the results yet ;-)

  644. Alex

    2) Items Subject to a Vote

  645. !xsf_martin has joined

  646. Alex

    board and council elections, you can see all the applicants here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2018

  647. Alex

    3) Opportunity for XSF members to Vote in the Meeting

  648. Alex

    anyone here who has not vited yet and wants to do so now?

  649. Alex

    otherwise I shutdown memberbot

  650. Alex

    3

  651. Alex

    2

  652. Alex

    1

  653. Alex

    nobody

  654. Alex

    shutting down the bot and start counting

  655. Zash

    Begin drumroll!

  656. ralphm

    Drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

  657. Guus

    Rollllll

  658. ralphm

    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

  659. ralphm

    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

  660. ralphm

    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

  661. waqas

    umm

  662. Guus

    Now you're just purring...

  663. ralphm

    It's a roll people.

  664. labdsf has joined

  665. ralphm

    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

  666. Ge0rG

    A people roll?

  667. Ge0rG

    I'm so excited!

  668. Alex

    4) Announcement of Voting Results

  669. Alex

    when you reload the page you can see the results:

  670. Alex

    https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-11-22#Announcement_of_Voting_Results

  671. ralphm

    https://upload.ik.nu/upload/sWP4vkMui9-SV4PJ/3dob7HDPRR-q_18Bl63t-g.jpg

  672. lskdjf has joined

  673. jonas’

    congrats to the (other) elected folks :)

  674. Zash

    Grats

  675. Alex

    Top 5 board: Ralph Meijer Matthew Wild Guus der Kinderen Severino Ferrer de la Peñita Nicolas Vérité

  676. ralphm

    🎉

  677. Alex

    and council is easy this time ;-)

  678. Tobias has joined

  679. Alex

    Dave Cridland Georg Lukas Emmanuel Gil Peyrot Kevin Smith Jonas Schäfer

  680. ralphm

    🎉

  681. Ge0rG

    😍

  682. jonas’

    🎉

  683. Alex

    congrats to everyone, and thank for applying

  684. Ge0rG

    🥂

  685. Ge0rG

    Thanks Alex

  686. ralphm

    Thanks Alex!

  687. jonas’

    Alex, thanks for chairing this meeting and doing all the work :-)

  688. Alex

    you#re welcome

  689. Alex

    5) Any other Business?

  690. j.r

    Georg Lukas is this a bad joke?

  691. jonas’

    j.r, no, that’s Ge0rG’s full legal name AFAIK

  692. jonas’

    j.r, that’s Ge0rG’s full legal name AFAIK

  693. jonas’

    (that doesn’t preclude that it’s a bad joke made by his parents though)

  694. Ge0rG

    My legal name is a bad joke. Yay.

  695. Ge0rG

    jonas’: the opinions vary on that.

  696. jonas’

    I like it :)

  697. ralphm

    Alex: I think we're good.

  698. Alex

    6) Formal Adjournment

  699. j.r

    Ge0rG: Not so bad at all

  700. Alex

    I motion that we adjourn

  701. jonas’

    fine with me, Alex

  702. ralphm bangs gavel

  703. Alex

    thanks (Y)

  704. Guus

    Thanks Alex!

  705. jonas’

    \o/

  706. Ge0rG

    How many members do we have, by the way? Isn't membership election due soon?

  707. Zash

    Thanks Alex

  708. jonas’

    Ge0rG, 49

  709. jonas’

    > The XSF has 49 elected members as of this date.

  710. jonas’

    (quoting the minutes)

  711. jonas’

    Ge0rG, and, yes: The XSF has 49 elected members as of this date.

  712. jonas’

    Ge0rG, and, yes: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q4_2018

  713. Ge0rG

    So 71% participation in the vote, that's great.

  714. Alex

    December 2nd

  715. Alex

    will send out some reminders soon

  716. Ge0rG

    Somehow I anticipated us being larger

  717. jonas’

    somehow I anticipated the participation to be worse

  718. ralphm

    FWIW: I was actually sitting behind my drums (picture) and have a gavel and gong.

  719. Alex

    looked at the records today, many members did not reapply in the last 12 month

  720. jonas’

    ralphm, next time I expect a livestream.

  721. ralphm

    https://upload.ik.nu/upload/893VhXpFBrmNbaaf/GrnORgQQT8egDKItfT2V1w.jpg

  722. jonas’

    :)

  723. Zash

    Nice

  724. Ge0rG

    ralphm: so you are making a *badumtss* on every bad joke?

  725. ralphm

    Yes

  726. Ge0rG

    Like when somebody mentions my full name? 😢

  727. Zash has left

  728. Yagiza has left

  729. Yagiza has joined

  730. guusdk has left

  731. guusdk has joined

  732. Alex has left

  733. Alex has joined

  734. Alex has left

  735. ralphm

    Nah

  736. rion has joined

  737. vanitasvitae has left

  738. vanitasvitae has joined

  739. thorsten has joined

  740. Neustradamus has left

  741. Alex has joined

  742. waqas has left

  743. guusdk has left

  744. guusdk has joined

  745. guusdk has left

  746. guusdk has joined

  747. pep. has left

  748. !xsf_martin has left

  749. Alex has left

  750. Alex has joined

  751. goffi has joined

  752. Alex has left

  753. lovetox has left

  754. lumi has left

  755. vanitasvitae has left

  756. vanitasvitae has joined

  757. guusdk has left

  758. Holger has left

  759. ThibG has left

  760. 404.city has left

  761. 404.city has joined

  762. ThibG has joined

  763. goffi has joined

  764. rion has left

  765. vinx55 has joined

  766. vanitasvitae has left

  767. Yagiza has left

  768. vanitasvitae has joined

  769. 404.city has left

  770. l has joined

  771. lskdjf has joined

  772. !xsf_martin has joined

  773. marc has left

  774. matlag has left

  775. goffi has joined

  776. Nekit has joined

  777. lnj has left

  778. vinx55 has left

  779. ralphm has joined

  780. genofire has joined

  781. l has joined

  782. lskdjf has joined

  783. rion has joined

  784. krauq has left

  785. alexde has left

  786. tux has left

  787. daniel

    I’m starting the thing that an xml notation for message styling / markup wouldn’t be the worst idea. but i don’t want the full feature set of xhtml-im. It can borrow html5 vocabulary but i want the feature set to be limited to something that message styling and message markup offer. so probably something like <strong>, <em>, <pre>

  788. daniel

    *think

  789. jonas’

    this is going to re-invent the XHTML-IM wheel.

  790. daniel

    maybe. but if it is limited to 5 elements w/o any attributes people might not attempt to reuse browser renderers

  791. jonas’

    people will always attempt stupid things

  792. daniel

    xhml is just soo complicated. i don’t think anyone but Link Mauve ever wrote a renderer for it

  793. daniel

    and that one probably isn’t even complete

  794. jonas’

    how about re-defining the XHTML subset used by XHTML-IM?

  795. Zash

    Didn't it have profiles already?

  796. jonas’

    it used XHTML profiles I think

  797. daniel

    i mean it has freaking css in it

  798. Link Mauve

    daniel, uh, a lot of people have.

  799. Link Mauve

    There are in all of the 2000s clients.

  800. jonas’

    libpurple probably has one with an RCE even.

  801. Link Mauve

    And the CSS parts it has are very small, nothing like CSS level 2.

  802. daniel

    putting css in there breaks with the whole let's use xml idea

  803. jonas’

    ah, yes

  804. Link Mauve

    It’s also optional.

  805. daniel

    it doesn’t make sense to use css

  806. Zash

    strip the CSS then

  807. jonas’

    that’s a good point

  808. jonas’

    more like 90ies HTML with stuff like <font color="xyz"/>

  809. Zash

    The mod_xhtml I made for Prosody can do that

  810. Zash

    jonas’: Like how SVG works now? :)

  811. Link Mauve

    “23:02:20 jonas’> it used XHTML profiles I think”, no, it defines profiles of XHTML, which is very different.

  812. jonas’

    Link Mauve, ah right

  813. daniel

    also if it is called xhtml-*IM* why does it have shit like headline

  814. jonas’

    Zash, pretty much

  815. daniel

    i understand the use for blogs and stuff

  816. daniel

    but IM?

  817. jonas’

    daniel, rich text bots

  818. Zash

    daniel: Throw it out!

  819. daniel

    who’s going to put headlines in messages

  820. Zash

    µblogging

  821. jonas’

    daniel, one of the reasons the company I work for swtiched away from XMPP was that they wanted fancy alert messages

  822. Zash

    daniel: People write forum posts in messages sometimes

  823. jonas’

    ... but clients lacked proper support for that

  824. jonas’

    or maybe I should’ve tried more

  825. Link Mauve

    daniel, again, nothing forces you to implement the entire list of profiles defined in XHTML-IM.

  826. jonas’

    whatever

  827. Link Mauve

    Nothing will break if you don’t render a <h1/> a bit bigger than normal text.

  828. lnj has left

  829. ralphm

    I think the biggest concern with XHTML-IM is that people just throw it at their favorite HTML renderer, opening up all kinds of security issues. No matter what subset.

  830. Zash

    jonas’: I'm not sure fancy notifications should require all of XHTML. Eg Slack doesn't do that .. does it?

  831. Zash

    Fancier than plain text messages, sure

  832. Link Mauve

    ralphm, people will do that, no matter what the input format.

  833. Link Mauve

    I’ve seen more RCE using User Nickname in the wild.

  834. Link Mauve

    Simply because “it’s a nickname, so plain text, what could possibly happen if I use innerHTML?”

  835. jonas’

    Zash, I’ve seen headings and other markdown-like formatting

  836. jonas’

    ralphm, we had that discussion for a month or so a year back

  837. ralphm

    As for what Slack does, I think that's mostly XEP-393.

  838. ralphm

    I know this

  839. ralphm

    I didn't restart it today

  840. Zash

    jonas’: `<subject>` :)

  841. jonas’

    Zash, subheadings

  842. Zash

    jonas’: nyeh

  843. Link Mauve

    Headings used to make more sense with the email-like UI of normal messages in the likes of Psi and Gajim.

  844. daniel

    well i like 0393 as an input format and i think it is enough for a feature set

  845. Link Mauve

    Where you may have wanted full formatting.

  846. jonas’

    daniel, I agree with you for non-automated beings :)

  847. jonas’

    daniel, I agree with you for non-automated beings in the IM use-case :)

  848. Link Mauve

    daniel, yup, no issue with that.

  849. ralphm

    daniel: indeed

  850. daniel

    but I think it might make sense to transmit the feature set of 393 as xml

  851. ralphm

    Why?

  852. Link Mauve

    ralphm, interoperability with other input markups.

  853. jonas’

    daniel, tbh, I’d prefer if we could re-vive XHTML-IM instead of inventing our own vocabulary.

  854. daniel

    ralphm, by transfering the input format you can never really remove the formatting because the client doesn’t know if it is formatting

  855. jonas’

    (and define a subset which is equivalent to 393)

  856. Maranda has left

  857. Alex has joined

  858. daniel

    parsing the input format to xml and using that could solve that

  859. jonas’

    also, this is what I told you folks a year ago already >.>

  860. jonas’

    if we’re going to define our own vocabulary, people will still come up with unsafe hacks to put it into an XHTML renderer directly

  861. daniel

    jonas’, well the vocabulary i suggested was html5 which for those cases should be the same as xhtml

  862. jonas’

    indeed

  863. Zash

    The un-safety was always in having a renderer that also executes arbitrary code, not the wire format.

  864. daniel

    well i can get on board with an xhtml-im-light that is limited to what 0393 can input

  865. ralphm

    So what Slack *actually* does, I think, is parsing the plaintext server side as per 393, and then send a marked up message back, including references.

  866. Link Mauve

    daniel, XHTML-IM is already that, tbh.

  867. daniel

    if you want to do that in the same xep or not i don’t care

  868. Link Mauve

    Except it doesn’t have disco#info features telling others what you actually do support.

  869. ralphm

    That's why Flow came up with https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/bmh.html, no?

  870. Link Mauve

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0071.html#profile-summary the current recommended set is a bit bigger than what you suggest, but I don’t see much to remove from it.

  871. jonas’

    Link Mauve, for starters, @style should go out of the window.

  872. Link Mauve

    It mostly just adds lists, images, links and CSS.

  873. Link Mauve

    Oh, and quotes.

  874. jonas’

    (393 has quotes)

  875. jonas’

    that profile lacks code though

  876. Link Mauve

    Indeed, that would be an useful addition.

  877. Link Mauve

    Indeed, that would be a useful addition.

  878. jonas’

    now, if we had namespaced attributes...

  879. Link Mauve

    There is one, just in this list. :p

  880. jonas’

    (thinking of stuff like <code xhtml-im:language="c"/>)

  881. jonas’

    yeah, xml:lang doesn’t count

  882. Link Mauve

    I’ve used a @class hack for that in the past.

  883. ralphm

    I'd like bold, italic, strike, literal inline, literal block, bullet list and quotes.

  884. Link Mauve

    Strike requires CSS if we keep it to XHTML-IM.

  885. Zash

    ralphm: "literal inline" ?

  886. ralphm

    No color, I think, no font choices, so I guess no css.

  887. ralphm

    Yes, like `this`.

  888. Zash

    ralphm: So <code>-ish?

  889. jonas’

    Link Mauve, <del/>?

  890. Link Mauve

    Isn’t that <code/>?

  891. ralphm

    Versus: ``` Block of literal. ```.

  892. Link Mauve

    jonas’, oh, indeed.

  893. Link Mauve

    ralphm, <pre><code/></pre>.

  894. jonas’

    Link Mauve, although I’m not 100% convinced that <del/> has the right s emantics

  895. Alex

    we need a markdown extension ;-)

  896. Link Mauve

    “The HTML <del> element represents a range of text that has been deleted from a document. This can be used when rendering "track changes" or source code diff information, for example.”

  897. ralphm

    Yeah, one block, one inline. That's the HTML terminology.

  898. Zash

    Alex: Bother your client about markdown to xhtml-im support? :)

  899. Link Mauve

    Alex, no, we need to allow clients to use Markdown as an input format, and transmit it in some standard way (*hint* XHTML-IM) over the wire.

  900. Zash

    <code xml:lang="c">int main (void) { }</code> mouhahhaaha

  901. jonas’

    Zash, that hurt me a little.

  902. ralphm

    Markdown is like RSS. There are many dialects and bad interop.

  903. Link Mauve

    That’s something which can’t be done using XEP-0393 due to incompatibilities in the markup used.

  904. ralphm

    That's why Slack says they don't support it.

  905. Link Mauve

    ralphm, hence why clients should be able to pick the one they like, and convert it to XHTML-IM.

  906. Alex

    what I do not like in HTML-IM is that you need to validate for allowed tags and scripts

  907. jonas’

    fun fact: with namespaced attributes we could get references right

  908. Zash

    jonas’: We need to get computer languages their own language tags!

  909. Alex

    otherwise clients are volnerable

  910. ralphm

    Alex: you need to validate any format

  911. Link Mauve

    Alex, no, you need to pick a subset and convert it to whichever rendering library you’re using.

  912. Zash

    Alex: And you are aware that Markdown allows HTML pass-through?

  913. Link Mauve

    That’s very different from validation.

  914. jonas’

    Alex, not really. only if you pass the XHTML-IM 1:1 to the (code executing) renderer. If you did what you would do for any other format (parse and re-emit as HTML), it would be fine.

  915. ralphm

    Zash: and that

  916. Link Mauve

    jonas’, let’s just use namespaced attributes, and see what breaks!

  917. Link Mauve

    I’d bet on not much, if anything.

  918. Zash

    The real problem is the distinct lackof a renderer without mandatory JS support and remote content fetching

  919. jonas’

    (thinking of <body xmlns="xhtml" xmlns:xhtml-im="..."><span xhtml-im:id="abc">@Link Mauve</span></body><references><ref id="abc"><jid>linkmauve@...</jid></ref></references>)

  920. jonas’

    although that could probably also be solved with some href actually

  921. jonas’

    but you get the idea

  922. jonas’

    (same for blockquotes for example)

  923. Link Mauve

    jonas’, looks very nice, but @id already exists in XHTML, we could just add it to the profile.

  924. jonas’

    Link Mauve, @id is even in XML and has some semantics I’m afraid

  925. Link Mauve

    @xml:id is different from @xhtml:id in semantics.

  926. Link Mauve

    Here, you create a new XHTML document in each message (possibly more than one even, with @xml:lang).

  927. jonas’

    right

  928. jonas’

    that could actually work

  929. Link Mauve

    So you could perfectly use @xhtml:id.

  930. jonas’

    and the @xhtml:id needs to be unique anyways for references to work... or does it?

  931. Link Mauve

    Let’s keep it simple. :)

  932. jonas’

    ok :)

  933. Alex

    which client are you working on?

  934. Link Mauve

    Personally, at the moment mostly Converse (when I’ll stop being ill), but I don’t have a fixed client to work on, I just do what I feel is useful.

  935. Zash

    I should submit the XEP for the thing I did with JabberCat at some point

  936. mightyBroccoli has left

  937. mightyBroccoli has joined

  938. jonas’

    alright, heading to bed, tele-type to you later ;-)

  939. 404.city has joined

  940. lorddavidiii has left

  941. lorddavidiii has joined

  942. Link Mauve

    Zash, what did you do?

  943. !xsf_martin has left

  944. Zash

    Link Mauve: BUTTON!

  945. matlag has left

  946. Link Mauve

    !

  947. daniel has left

  948. matlag has left

  949. lorddavidiii has left

  950. lskdjf has left

  951. valo has left

  952. valo has joined

  953. Alex has left

  954. moparisthebest has joined

  955. moparisthebest has joined

  956. Alex has joined

  957. genofire has left

  958. genofire has joined

  959. lskdjf has left

  960. 404.city has left

  961. lskdjf has left

  962. lskdjf has left

  963. rion has left

  964. guusdk has left

  965. guusdk has joined

  966. lskdjf has left

  967. SamWhited has left

  968. lskdjf has joined

  969. lskdjf has left

  970. jjrh has left

  971. lskdjf has left

  972. moparisthebest has left

  973. moparisthebest has joined