XSF Discussion - 2018-11-22


  1. MattJ

    Sorry, not sure I'll be able to actively participate in a meeting (if there is one today)

  2. nyco

    there should be one... ok, thx for telling

  3. nyco

    aaaaand... time!

  4. Guus

    Peekaboo

  5. Guus

    ralphm, are you here too?

  6. Guus

    it'd be kind of a shame to let our last one slide ...

  7. nyco

    anway, we are "fired" tonight... 😉

  8. Guus

    I'm very likely to miss tonights election meeting, sadly

  9. nyco

    I will miss it too

  10. ralphm

    I am

  11. ralphm bangs gavel

  12. nyco

    cool

  13. ralphm

    0. Welcome + Agenda

  14. ralphm

    Welcome to the last meeting of this term.

  15. ralphm

    Topics?

  16. Guus

    various, see trello

  17. nyco

    possible agenda item: clean up the Trello board for the next members 😉

  18. Guus

    I actually added a couple, primarily triggered by Jonas

  19. ralphm set the topic to

    XSF Board Meeting | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  20. ralphm

    I'll add him

  21. Guus

    wfm, and takes care of item 1 🙂

  22. ralphm

    Right

  23. ralphm

    Ok

  24. ralphm

    1. Meeting with Peter

  25. ralphm

    We almost scheduled a meeting, but I then I didn't.

  26. ralphm

    If I'm reelected, I will follow up right after

  27. Guus

    If you're not, I will. If we're both not, nyco must have been, so I'm volunteering him then 😃

  28. ralphm

    Haha

  29. nyco

    not possible that two of you are not

  30. ralphm

    2. GSoC 2019

  31. ralphm

    I think as an organisation, we'd like to participate, *when* there is somebody who'll take the lead on getting it done.

  32. ralphm

    If there are any takers present, please let yourselves known. Otherwise, we should put out a request for it.

  33. Guus

    So, we'll first have to find a volunteer

  34. nyco

    so who "volunteers" who, this time? 😉

  35. Guus

    Kev did it before, so it'd make sense to name-drop him...

  36. nyco

    what is the workload?

  37. Guus

    nyco: it's not neglectible

  38. nyco

    I understand mostly paperwork, reminders, being organised

  39. Guus

    I think we're basically looking for someone who would be organisation admin, in gsoc terms

  40. Guus

    there's a lot to be done for that (to much to sum up here, but look at the GSOC website, there's loads of information there)

  41. nyco

    so we send a call for volunteer on the ML ?

  42. Guus

    Sounds good to me

  43. ralphm

    3. Summit / FOSDEM

  44. ralphm

    I have still not seen any announcement on stands

  45. Ge0rG

    there is also a desire to do an XMPP Sprint around FOSDEM/Summit.

  46. Ge0rG

    I think daniel is involved with planning that.

  47. nyco

    isn't that too much?

  48. nyco

    oh, great then

  49. nyco

    when?

  50. Ge0rG

    wed/sat or wed/sun are *possible* options

  51. ralphm

    I think we also have access to more space this time, so we can probably do breakouts

  52. ralphm

    (at Cisco)

  53. ralphm

    anyway, that's for SCAM, not in this meeting

  54. Guus

    I'd be nice to keep the gang together during the summit, I think?

  55. Guus

    but, what he said

  56. Guus

    also, I love the idea of doing sprints

  57. nyco

    one summit to bind them all

  58. nyco

    indeed

  59. ralphm

    I don't think there's anything else to report on this

  60. Guus

    I've enquired for a Master of Ceremony, which tentatively agreed to be one.

  61. Guus

    but other than that, no, nothing to report

  62. ralphm

    4. XEP-0001 Proposed->Experimental transition

  63. Guus

    I've read up on the request, which in itself made sense to me

  64. ralphm

    I'm +1 on this request

  65. Guus

    I was wondering if that omission was there by design though

  66. ralphm

    We can change the design

  67. Guus

    or if it is simply something that was missed

  68. Guus

    well, if it was there by design, then it must've had some reasoning behind it

  69. ralphm

    Well, fortunately the Approving Body makes the final decision on taking this new transition, so I think that's good enough.

  70. ralphm

    Guus: well, we've changed the transitions before. It is ok, really.

  71. Guus

    I'm not saying we can't change it 🙂

  72. ralphm

    If you want additional blessing, bring it up when we talk to stpeter.

  73. Guus

    I'm just wondering why it's missing in the first place 🙂

  74. ralphm

    Probably because it didn't come up.

  75. ralphm

    (I don't recall it coming up in my 8 terms)

  76. ralphm

    nyco?

  77. Guus

    ok, I'll bring it up in the talk with Peter, for my ease of mind 🙂

  78. ralphm

    Guus: are you voting anyway?

  79. nyco

    following discussion, not disagreeing 😉

  80. Guus

    no, I'll wait for Peter's feedback.

  81. Guus

    which makes this a matter for next board... I guess?

  82. ralphm

    Ok. Let the records note that we carry this over to (a) next meeting of the Board.

  83. ralphm

    5. AOB?

  84. nyco

    nope

  85. Guus

    your quick reaction to my idea of launching some kind of IOS contest, perhaps?

  86. Guus

    did you guys catch that?

  87. nyco

    what?

  88. ralphm

    ?

  89. Guus

    basically: I'm toying with an idea to have the XSF organize some kind of XPrize-style prize for development of something that we're sorely missing today, an ios-client being an obvious, but perhaps not only, choice.

  90. Guus

    this was discussed in this MUC a couple of days ago, wondered if you guys caught it.

  91. nyco

    I missed it

  92. nyco

    makes sense

  93. Guus

    the idea is to stimulate development, to make the XMPP ecosystem more complete.

  94. nyco

    I fear difficulty may appear on the money front, but to be proven

  95. Guus

    at this stage, I primarily would like to know if the idea is worth exploring, according to you

  96. nyco

    I strongly support an attempt

  97. ralphm

    Not against the idea, but needs more detail.

  98. Guus

    k, tx

  99. ralphm

    6. Date of Next

  100. nyco

    nope

  101. nyco

    😉

  102. nyco

    we let "them" decide

  103. ralphm

    As a handover, I suggest holding a meeting a week from now again.

  104. nyco

    ah, ok, then I'm in, +1W

  105. ralphm

    Even if I'd not be elected, I'd still be chair, so that's ok for me to schedule :-D

  106. Guus

    one of the board candidates is from the US, which might not be up by then. 🙂

  107. ralphm

    So penciling it in.

  108. ralphm

    7.

  109. ralphm

    Close

  110. nyco

    bye, team 😉

  111. ralphm

    I'd like to thank everyone on the 2018/2019 Board and Council for past year's effords. Curious about the election results.

  112. ralphm

    Cheers!

  113. Guus

    likewise

  114. nyco

    yeah, merci beaucoup

  115. ralphm bangs gavel

  116. nyco

    aaaaand, who sends the minutes?

  117. ralphm set the topic to

    XSF Discussion | Logs: http://logs.xmpp.org/xsf/ | Agenda https://trello.com/b/Dn6IQOu0/board-meetings

  118. ralphm

    nyco: I think you just volunteered.

  119. ralphm

    Guus: a word popped up in my mind earlier today: swag.

  120. Guus

    I'm fresh out, and meaning to order

  121. Guus

    but I only have design for stickers, I think

  122. Guus

    so, if you have more ideas/designs... by all means.

  123. Ge0rG

    I want a Jabber™ hoodie.

  124. Guus

    look, a volunteer for making a design 🙂

  125. Guus

    are we selling swag again, or just having giveaways this year?

  126. Guus

    as I think most, if not all, of our inventory has been sold in last years?

  127. nyco

    I have a preference for selling, but needs effort

  128. Guus

    oh, yeah, maybe you guys should all sign up for joining in our wiki 🙂

  129. ralphm

    We have no inventory left

  130. Ge0rG

    the wiki doesn't work well on mobile.

  131. Guus

    https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/FOSDEM_2019 https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Summit_23

  132. Guus

    hattip to Seve for creating those pages

  133. ralphm

    Ge0rG: It is highly unlikely that we will have Jabber™ hoodies made.

  134. Guus

    can we, license wise?

  135. ralphm

    There've also been requests last year to have other things than hoodies. Kev and dwd might have ideas.

  136. ralphm

    Guus: yes

  137. moparisthebest

    did memberbot go down?

  138. ralphm

    Alex ^

  139. ralphm

    (it is up for me, I think)

  140. Ge0rG

    memberbot works for me as well

  141. Guus

    memberbot is up and responsive to me

  142. moparisthebest

    yep working again, though I just got on gajim and it has an angry face and under construction emoji as a name has that always been there?

  143. Guus

    haven't noticed, but that doesn't say much.

  144. moparisthebest

    for the second time it froze after I cast my first vote for board...

  145. Ge0rG

    maybe Gajim froze?

  146. moparisthebest

    maybe I'm breaking it somehow, first time I was using conversations, now gajim

  147. Guus

    I've had zero problems with Converse, and Conversations a few elections back.

  148. moparisthebest

    neither have I

  149. ralphm

    moparisthebest: those are User Activity and User Mood icons.

  150. moparisthebest

    does it normally have those? :)

  151. ralphm

    Well, has had them for a long time

  152. moparisthebest

    ‎[10:15:55 AM] ‎SleekXMPP got into trouble.

  153. moparisthebest

    there finally got an error to show up in gajim

  154. moparisthebest

    that's after I cast my first vote for board

  155. ralphm

    moparisthebest: the User Mood is 'serious' and the Activity is 'working'

  156. moparisthebest

    if it resets and responds to me again I can try to capture some XML, but uh, who can check up on it? :/

  157. ralphm

    Alex

  158. jonas’

    moparisthebest, you can also vote in the meeting later at 19:00Z

  159. jonas’

    so if memberbot hates you for some reason...

  160. Ge0rG

    I always missed the live meetings.

  161. jonas’

    anyone from jabber.de who sent me a subscritpion request?

  162. moparisthebest

    jonas’: Thanksgiving in US today so will be eating then :)

  163. jonas’

    moparisthebest, hah, right

  164. jonas’

    moparisthebest, I pinged him out-of-band, maybe that helps.

  165. moparisthebest

    I emailed my votes to him and he responded so I'm fine

  166. jonas’

    ah ok

  167. moparisthebest

    Memberbot crashing is another story :)

  168. jonas’

    woah

  169. jonas’

    git merge silently puts a revision block added in one branch of the xeps repo below revision blocks which were added later on

  170. jonas’

    that’s... something to be aware of

  171. ralphm

    What does that mean?

  172. jonas’

    practically, it means that editors must be extremely cautious when merging multiple branches affecting the same XEP

  173. jonas’

    example: https://github.com/xsf/xeps/commit/945652bf33b9c98ec7b8670cad7766669a91cebf

  174. jonas’

    this should’ve been a conflict, because the original commit (which was being merged here, see <https://github.com/xsf/xeps/commit/cd8d05a6605ed742419a036c185ada9d174ba5fe>) added the 1.15.3 block to the top of the list (where other blocks have been added in the meantime)

  175. jonas’

    I don’t see how this is *not* a conflict

  176. jonas’

    but instead, git silently merged that by ordering the "new" revision block below the existing ones

  177. ralphm

    Well, fuzziness is always tricky. In this case it just looked at the bottom of the patch chunk

  178. ralphm

    Found a match

  179. jonas’

    I don’t think that’s a valid thing to do in the general case

  180. ralphm

    And cleanly applied

  181. jonas’

    ignore the top part entirely

  182. jonas’

    it’s clear what techincally happened, but I don’t think this is correct behaviour

  183. ralphm

    So I guess there could be a script to test for such inconsistencies

  184. jonas’

    yes, I think we might need that

  185. ralphm

    Which would let you know before the merge

  186. Alex

    he guys, I think its member meeting time ;-)

  187. jonas’ is here

  188. ralphm waves

  189. Zash

    \o/

  190. Alex

    okay, lets kick it off

  191. ralphm bangs the gavel for Alex

  192. Alex

    (Y)

  193. Alex

    here is our Agenda for today: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-11-22

  194. Alex

    1) Call for Quorum

  195. jonas’

    wait, top four candidates for board?

  196. jonas’

    why not five?

  197. Alex

    as you can see 35 members vote via proxy, memberbot and email

  198. jonas’

    > The top 4 candidates will comprise the Board for 2017-2018. There is a tie for position #5 which will be resolvde after the meeting using random selection as defined n RFC 3797. (also the year number is off; sorry to interrupt you)

  199. Alex

    sorry, copy and paste error ;-)

  200. Alex

    its corrected now

  201. Alex

    don't know the results yet ;-)

  202. Alex

    2) Items Subject to a Vote

  203. Alex

    board and council elections, you can see all the applicants here: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Board_and_Council_Elections_2018

  204. Alex

    3) Opportunity for XSF members to Vote in the Meeting

  205. Alex

    anyone here who has not vited yet and wants to do so now?

  206. Alex

    otherwise I shutdown memberbot

  207. Alex

    3

  208. Alex

    2

  209. Alex

    1

  210. Alex

    nobody

  211. Alex

    shutting down the bot and start counting

  212. Zash

    Begin drumroll!

  213. ralphm

    Drrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

  214. Guus

    Rollllll

  215. ralphm

    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

  216. ralphm

    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

  217. ralphm

    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

  218. waqas

    umm

  219. Guus

    Now you're just purring...

  220. ralphm

    It's a roll people.

  221. ralphm

    rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

  222. Ge0rG

    A people roll?

  223. Ge0rG

    I'm so excited!

  224. Alex

    4) Announcement of Voting Results

  225. Alex

    when you reload the page you can see the results:

  226. Alex

    https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Meeting-Minutes-2018-11-22#Announcement_of_Voting_Results

  227. ralphm

    https://upload.ik.nu/upload/sWP4vkMui9-SV4PJ/3dob7HDPRR-q_18Bl63t-g.jpg

  228. jonas’

    congrats to the (other) elected folks :)

  229. Zash

    Grats

  230. Alex

    Top 5 board: Ralph Meijer Matthew Wild Guus der Kinderen Severino Ferrer de la Peñita Nicolas Vérité

  231. ralphm

    🎉

  232. Alex

    and council is easy this time ;-)

  233. Alex

    Dave Cridland Georg Lukas Emmanuel Gil Peyrot Kevin Smith Jonas Schäfer

  234. ralphm

    🎉

  235. Ge0rG

    😍

  236. jonas’

    🎉

  237. Alex

    congrats to everyone, and thank for applying

  238. Ge0rG

    🥂

  239. Ge0rG

    Thanks Alex

  240. ralphm

    Thanks Alex!

  241. jonas’

    Alex, thanks for chairing this meeting and doing all the work :-)

  242. Alex

    you#re welcome

  243. Alex

    5) Any other Business?

  244. j.r

    Georg Lukas is this a bad joke?

  245. jonas’

    j.r, no, that’s Ge0rG’s full legal name AFAIK

  246. jonas’

    j.r, that’s Ge0rG’s full legal name AFAIK

  247. jonas’

    (that doesn’t preclude that it’s a bad joke made by his parents though)

  248. Ge0rG

    My legal name is a bad joke. Yay.

  249. Ge0rG

    jonas’: the opinions vary on that.

  250. jonas’

    I like it :)

  251. ralphm

    Alex: I think we're good.

  252. Alex

    6) Formal Adjournment

  253. j.r

    Ge0rG: Not so bad at all

  254. Alex

    I motion that we adjourn

  255. jonas’

    fine with me, Alex

  256. ralphm bangs gavel

  257. Alex

    thanks (Y)

  258. Guus

    Thanks Alex!

  259. jonas’

    \o/

  260. Ge0rG

    How many members do we have, by the way? Isn't membership election due soon?

  261. Zash

    Thanks Alex

  262. jonas’

    Ge0rG, 49

  263. jonas’

    > The XSF has 49 elected members as of this date.

  264. jonas’

    (quoting the minutes)

  265. jonas’

    Ge0rG, and, yes: The XSF has 49 elected members as of this date.

  266. jonas’

    Ge0rG, and, yes: https://wiki.xmpp.org/web/Membership_Applications_Q4_2018

  267. Ge0rG

    So 71% participation in the vote, that's great.

  268. Alex

    December 2nd

  269. Alex

    will send out some reminders soon

  270. Ge0rG

    Somehow I anticipated us being larger

  271. jonas’

    somehow I anticipated the participation to be worse

  272. ralphm

    FWIW: I was actually sitting behind my drums (picture) and have a gavel and gong.

  273. Alex

    looked at the records today, many members did not reapply in the last 12 month

  274. jonas’

    ralphm, next time I expect a livestream.

  275. ralphm

    https://upload.ik.nu/upload/893VhXpFBrmNbaaf/GrnORgQQT8egDKItfT2V1w.jpg

  276. jonas’

    :)

  277. Zash

    Nice

  278. Ge0rG

    ralphm: so you are making a *badumtss* on every bad joke?

  279. ralphm

    Yes

  280. Ge0rG

    Like when somebody mentions my full name? 😢

  281. ralphm

    Nah

  282. daniel

    I’m starting the thing that an xml notation for message styling / markup wouldn’t be the worst idea. but i don’t want the full feature set of xhtml-im. It can borrow html5 vocabulary but i want the feature set to be limited to something that message styling and message markup offer. so probably something like <strong>, <em>, <pre>

  283. daniel

    *think

  284. jonas’

    this is going to re-invent the XHTML-IM wheel.

  285. daniel

    maybe. but if it is limited to 5 elements w/o any attributes people might not attempt to reuse browser renderers

  286. jonas’

    people will always attempt stupid things

  287. daniel

    xhml is just soo complicated. i don’t think anyone but Link Mauve ever wrote a renderer for it

  288. daniel

    and that one probably isn’t even complete

  289. jonas’

    how about re-defining the XHTML subset used by XHTML-IM?

  290. Zash

    Didn't it have profiles already?

  291. jonas’

    it used XHTML profiles I think

  292. daniel

    i mean it has freaking css in it

  293. Link Mauve

    daniel, uh, a lot of people have.

  294. Link Mauve

    There are in all of the 2000s clients.

  295. jonas’

    libpurple probably has one with an RCE even.

  296. Link Mauve

    And the CSS parts it has are very small, nothing like CSS level 2.

  297. daniel

    putting css in there breaks with the whole let's use xml idea

  298. jonas’

    ah, yes

  299. Link Mauve

    It’s also optional.

  300. daniel

    it doesn’t make sense to use css

  301. Zash

    strip the CSS then

  302. jonas’

    that’s a good point

  303. jonas’

    more like 90ies HTML with stuff like <font color="xyz"/>

  304. Zash

    The mod_xhtml I made for Prosody can do that

  305. Zash

    jonas’: Like how SVG works now? :)

  306. Link Mauve

    “23:02:20 jonas’> it used XHTML profiles I think”, no, it defines profiles of XHTML, which is very different.

  307. jonas’

    Link Mauve, ah right

  308. daniel

    also if it is called xhtml-*IM* why does it have shit like headline

  309. jonas’

    Zash, pretty much

  310. daniel

    i understand the use for blogs and stuff

  311. daniel

    but IM?

  312. jonas’

    daniel, rich text bots

  313. Zash

    daniel: Throw it out!

  314. daniel

    who’s going to put headlines in messages

  315. Zash

    µblogging

  316. jonas’

    daniel, one of the reasons the company I work for swtiched away from XMPP was that they wanted fancy alert messages

  317. Zash

    daniel: People write forum posts in messages sometimes

  318. jonas’

    ... but clients lacked proper support for that

  319. jonas’

    or maybe I should’ve tried more

  320. Link Mauve

    daniel, again, nothing forces you to implement the entire list of profiles defined in XHTML-IM.

  321. jonas’

    whatever

  322. Link Mauve

    Nothing will break if you don’t render a <h1/> a bit bigger than normal text.

  323. ralphm

    I think the biggest concern with XHTML-IM is that people just throw it at their favorite HTML renderer, opening up all kinds of security issues. No matter what subset.

  324. Zash

    jonas’: I'm not sure fancy notifications should require all of XHTML. Eg Slack doesn't do that .. does it?

  325. Zash

    Fancier than plain text messages, sure

  326. Link Mauve

    ralphm, people will do that, no matter what the input format.

  327. Link Mauve

    I’ve seen more RCE using User Nickname in the wild.

  328. Link Mauve

    Simply because “it’s a nickname, so plain text, what could possibly happen if I use innerHTML?”

  329. jonas’

    Zash, I’ve seen headings and other markdown-like formatting

  330. jonas’

    ralphm, we had that discussion for a month or so a year back

  331. ralphm

    As for what Slack does, I think that's mostly XEP-393.

  332. ralphm

    I know this

  333. ralphm

    I didn't restart it today

  334. Zash

    jonas’: `<subject>` :)

  335. jonas’

    Zash, subheadings

  336. Zash

    jonas’: nyeh

  337. Link Mauve

    Headings used to make more sense with the email-like UI of normal messages in the likes of Psi and Gajim.

  338. daniel

    well i like 0393 as an input format and i think it is enough for a feature set

  339. Link Mauve

    Where you may have wanted full formatting.

  340. jonas’

    daniel, I agree with you for non-automated beings :)

  341. jonas’

    daniel, I agree with you for non-automated beings in the IM use-case :)

  342. Link Mauve

    daniel, yup, no issue with that.

  343. ralphm

    daniel: indeed

  344. daniel

    but I think it might make sense to transmit the feature set of 393 as xml

  345. ralphm

    Why?

  346. Link Mauve

    ralphm, interoperability with other input markups.

  347. jonas’

    daniel, tbh, I’d prefer if we could re-vive XHTML-IM instead of inventing our own vocabulary.

  348. daniel

    ralphm, by transfering the input format you can never really remove the formatting because the client doesn’t know if it is formatting

  349. jonas’

    (and define a subset which is equivalent to 393)

  350. daniel

    parsing the input format to xml and using that could solve that

  351. jonas’

    also, this is what I told you folks a year ago already >.>

  352. jonas’

    if we’re going to define our own vocabulary, people will still come up with unsafe hacks to put it into an XHTML renderer directly

  353. daniel

    jonas’, well the vocabulary i suggested was html5 which for those cases should be the same as xhtml

  354. jonas’

    indeed

  355. Zash

    The un-safety was always in having a renderer that also executes arbitrary code, not the wire format.

  356. daniel

    well i can get on board with an xhtml-im-light that is limited to what 0393 can input

  357. ralphm

    So what Slack *actually* does, I think, is parsing the plaintext server side as per 393, and then send a marked up message back, including references.

  358. Link Mauve

    daniel, XHTML-IM is already that, tbh.

  359. daniel

    if you want to do that in the same xep or not i don’t care

  360. Link Mauve

    Except it doesn’t have disco#info features telling others what you actually do support.

  361. ralphm

    That's why Flow came up with https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/bmh.html, no?

  362. Link Mauve

    https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0071.html#profile-summary the current recommended set is a bit bigger than what you suggest, but I don’t see much to remove from it.

  363. jonas’

    Link Mauve, for starters, @style should go out of the window.

  364. Link Mauve

    It mostly just adds lists, images, links and CSS.

  365. Link Mauve

    Oh, and quotes.

  366. jonas’

    (393 has quotes)

  367. jonas’

    that profile lacks code though

  368. Link Mauve

    Indeed, that would be an useful addition.

  369. Link Mauve

    Indeed, that would be a useful addition.

  370. jonas’

    now, if we had namespaced attributes...

  371. Link Mauve

    There is one, just in this list. :p

  372. jonas’

    (thinking of stuff like <code xhtml-im:language="c"/>)

  373. jonas’

    yeah, xml:lang doesn’t count

  374. Link Mauve

    I’ve used a @class hack for that in the past.

  375. ralphm

    I'd like bold, italic, strike, literal inline, literal block, bullet list and quotes.

  376. Link Mauve

    Strike requires CSS if we keep it to XHTML-IM.

  377. Zash

    ralphm: "literal inline" ?

  378. ralphm

    No color, I think, no font choices, so I guess no css.

  379. ralphm

    Yes, like `this`.

  380. Zash

    ralphm: So <code>-ish?

  381. jonas’

    Link Mauve, <del/>?

  382. Link Mauve

    Isn’t that <code/>?

  383. ralphm

    Versus: ``` Block of literal. ```.

  384. Link Mauve

    jonas’, oh, indeed.

  385. Link Mauve

    ralphm, <pre><code/></pre>.

  386. jonas’

    Link Mauve, although I’m not 100% convinced that <del/> has the right s emantics

  387. Alex

    we need a markdown extension ;-)

  388. Link Mauve

    “The HTML <del> element represents a range of text that has been deleted from a document. This can be used when rendering "track changes" or source code diff information, for example.”

  389. ralphm

    Yeah, one block, one inline. That's the HTML terminology.

  390. Zash

    Alex: Bother your client about markdown to xhtml-im support? :)

  391. Link Mauve

    Alex, no, we need to allow clients to use Markdown as an input format, and transmit it in some standard way (*hint* XHTML-IM) over the wire.

  392. Zash

    <code xml:lang="c">int main (void) { }</code> mouhahhaaha

  393. jonas’

    Zash, that hurt me a little.

  394. ralphm

    Markdown is like RSS. There are many dialects and bad interop.

  395. Link Mauve

    That’s something which can’t be done using XEP-0393 due to incompatibilities in the markup used.

  396. ralphm

    That's why Slack says they don't support it.

  397. Link Mauve

    ralphm, hence why clients should be able to pick the one they like, and convert it to XHTML-IM.

  398. Alex

    what I do not like in HTML-IM is that you need to validate for allowed tags and scripts

  399. jonas’

    fun fact: with namespaced attributes we could get references right

  400. Zash

    jonas’: We need to get computer languages their own language tags!

  401. Alex

    otherwise clients are volnerable

  402. ralphm

    Alex: you need to validate any format

  403. Link Mauve

    Alex, no, you need to pick a subset and convert it to whichever rendering library you’re using.

  404. Zash

    Alex: And you are aware that Markdown allows HTML pass-through?

  405. Link Mauve

    That’s very different from validation.

  406. jonas’

    Alex, not really. only if you pass the XHTML-IM 1:1 to the (code executing) renderer. If you did what you would do for any other format (parse and re-emit as HTML), it would be fine.

  407. ralphm

    Zash: and that

  408. Link Mauve

    jonas’, let’s just use namespaced attributes, and see what breaks!

  409. Link Mauve

    I’d bet on not much, if anything.

  410. Zash

    The real problem is the distinct lackof a renderer without mandatory JS support and remote content fetching

  411. jonas’

    (thinking of <body xmlns="xhtml" xmlns:xhtml-im="..."><span xhtml-im:id="abc">@Link Mauve</span></body><references><ref id="abc"><jid>linkmauve@...</jid></ref></references>)

  412. jonas’

    although that could probably also be solved with some href actually

  413. jonas’

    but you get the idea

  414. jonas’

    (same for blockquotes for example)

  415. Link Mauve

    jonas’, looks very nice, but @id already exists in XHTML, we could just add it to the profile.

  416. jonas’

    Link Mauve, @id is even in XML and has some semantics I’m afraid

  417. Link Mauve

    @xml:id is different from @xhtml:id in semantics.

  418. Link Mauve

    Here, you create a new XHTML document in each message (possibly more than one even, with @xml:lang).

  419. jonas’

    right

  420. jonas’

    that could actually work

  421. Link Mauve

    So you could perfectly use @xhtml:id.

  422. jonas’

    and the @xhtml:id needs to be unique anyways for references to work... or does it?

  423. Link Mauve

    Let’s keep it simple. :)

  424. jonas’

    ok :)

  425. Alex

    which client are you working on?

  426. Link Mauve

    Personally, at the moment mostly Converse (when I’ll stop being ill), but I don’t have a fixed client to work on, I just do what I feel is useful.

  427. Zash

    I should submit the XEP for the thing I did with JabberCat at some point

  428. jonas’

    alright, heading to bed, tele-type to you later ;-)

  429. Link Mauve

    Zash, what did you do?

  430. Zash

    Link Mauve: BUTTON!

  431. Link Mauve

    !