XSF Discussion - 2018-11-28

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  404. Maranda I thought igniterealtime.org had IBR open
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  419. jonas’ the XMPP logo, what are the conditions for use?
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  426. edhelas by the way for the upcoming XMPP newsletter, is it possible to add the release of Movim 0.14 ?
  427. Seve edhelas: yes
  428. edhelas https://nl.movim.eu/?node/pubsub.movim.eu/Movim/movim-0-14-scotty-anniversary-edition-J8qk3N
  429. edhelas :)
  430. edhelas 0.14.1 will follow soon I think
  431. jonas’ Seve, I’d like to append that Muclumbus now lives on the search.jabber.network domain and has seen some minor extensions, such as [software version and service type statistics](https://search.jabber.network/stats)
  432. Seve You got it, jonas’
  433. Ge0rG when is newsletter day again?
  434. jonas’ Seve, I’d like to append that the [Public Chat Room search Muclumbus](https://search.jabber.network/) now lives on the search.jabber.network domain and has seen some minor extensions, such as [software version and service type statistics](https://search.jabber.network/stats)
  435. jonas’ Ge0rG, 1st of month
  436. Ge0rG Damn, I wanted to write a yaxim 0.9.3 release announcement
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  439. Seve Still in time :P
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  441. Ge0rG Seve: but I don't have the time to write it.
  442. Ge0rG maybe tomorrow on the train, unless I take the automobile.
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  448. moparisthebest jonas’: is there a way to search which domains are running which software listed on there
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  450. jonas’ moparisthebest, not from the webinterface
  451. jonas’ the database has the information though
  452. moparisthebest Ah bummer, thanks
  453. jonas’ moparisthebest, anything in particular you want to know?
  454. moparisthebest The echo services
  455. jonas’ ah
  456. jonas’ they’re echo.some.domain typically; I heard that some ejabberd versions had those enabled by default
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  458. moparisthebest so I wrote https://github.com/moparisthebest/xmpp-echo-self and host it at echo.burtrum.org but didn't know anything else remotely similar existed
  459. moparisthebest was curious what they did and if I could maybe use them instead :)
  460. jonas’ apparently, they’re open to the world ;-)
  461. jonas’ but I wouldn’t rely on the service.
  462. moparisthebest well I meant in a 'something else had already been written' sense
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  481. daniel Why aren't mam messages type=headline?
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  484. Ge0rG Yes.
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  487. Ge0rG I think this is due to most XEP authors not explicitly thinking about message type.
  488. Ge0rG And around a year ago, I came to the realization that type=headline would be the best for MAM with RFC6120 routing rules
  489. daniel Well I'm glad we talked about it
  490. MattJ PRs welcome :)
  491. daniel MattJ: to the xep?
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  493. daniel I'm happy to do that
  494. MattJ Does it currently recommend a message type? or does it just not mention it?
  495. jonas’ inb4 the examples are just type-less (i.e. normal)
  496. jonas’ yupp
  497. daniel So we can change it without a ns bump?
  498. Zash How do you like having MAM results in MAM?
  499. daniel Lol
  500. Zash and carbons?
  501. daniel Yes that's the reason for making it headline
  502. MattJ One reason
  503. Ge0rG Can I have Carbons of MAM results please?
  504. daniel Mam + carbons are two reason 😊
  505. Ge0rG headline is not immune to Carbons.
  506. MattJ I'm curious if any clients check the message type though
  507. Ge0rG the actual reason I see is message re-routing when the receiving client disconnects
  508. Zash We almost need a type that's explicitly for non-message data
  509. Ge0rG Zash: except we can't.
  510. Zash XMPP 2.0!
  511. Zash Anyways, this ties into the Carbons / MAM rule of normal messages IFF they have <body>
  512. daniel but headlines are already ignored by mam and carbon, aren’t they?
  513. Zash daniel: What if I want MAM of pubsub events?
  514. daniel i think what we really need is a matrix like blockchain of messages
  515. Ge0rG 0280 doesn't even mention headline.
  516. Zash It's not a chat system, it's a real time distributed graph database
  517. Ge0rG Is anybody using headline for anything?
  518. Zash Ge0rG: Notifications mostly
  519. jonas’ pubsub is using headline I thin
  520. Zash I've got server notifications as headline
  521. Zash some are pubsub
  522. jonas’ spammers use headline, too
  523. jonas’ cf. https://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/17237
  524. jonas’ see https://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/17237
  525. Ge0rG Zash: server notifications for you to read or for pubsub stuff?
  526. Zash Ge0rG: Stuff like s2s cert failures. Pubsub stuff include a RSS/Atom feed.
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  528. Ge0rG is that a yes or no?
  529. Zash Ge0rG: I don't understand the question
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  531. Zash I'm using headline messages for things. Poezio does a very good job with showing them.
  532. Ge0rG Zash: so your headline messages have a body.
  533. Zash Correct
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  564. ralphm Pubsub doesn't require headline, but usually people choose that to make the notifications transient/volatile. E.g. prevent storage in MAM.
  565. ralphm Body elements in them are nice for having a fallback payload.
  566. ralphm So that clients can still display something
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  574. daniel yeah i think that mid term you might want the pubsub notifications that generated automatically (like pep sending it on every login) to be headline. and 'proper' pubsub notifications to be type=normal and land in mam
  575. Zash There's a configuration option for that.
  576. Zash PubSub has everything!
  577. daniel Cool
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  584. Ge0rG In theory, Carbons should be headline as well by that logic.
  585. MattJ Pubsub has everything, and MUC has everything else
  586. MattJ and it's still not enough
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  607. ralphm That's why we're doing MIX, right?
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  625. Ge0rG Because it combines the complexity of pubsub with the bad design of muc?
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  631. ralphm I don't agree that a) pubsub is complex, b) MIX is badly designed. So, no.
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  634. rion is eating popcorn and waiting when mix becomes draft standard
  635. moparisthebest that might end up being a LOT of popcorn
  636. ralphm Well, that might take a while, indeed. Multiple implementations might help. My team is working on this and I intend to relay some (more) feedback.
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  640. Ge0rG ralphm: that would be awesome indeed. I'd like to be proven wrong.
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  643. rion btw does anyone have a voice messages xep in mind? I know Conversation implements something, but I'd like to pass some metadata with the message like amplitude histogram for example.
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  646. ralphm Oh, interesting. I'd suggest looking at the SIMS spec, and adding something analogous to thumbnails.
  647. ralphm https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html
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  651. rion I guess I have to implement xep-0385 for Psi-2.0 and propose a change to the xep afterwards :)
  652. rion let be so
  653. ralphm I don't think adding a histogram requires changing XEP-0385. That said, the specification should be worked out a bit better.
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  657. rion "Table 2: Mandated encoding and in-line display support." -> Format/Container -> mpeg4 Hm I implemented my voice messages with Matroska..
  658. Ge0rG You can also add inline image thumbnails. There is https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0264.html and I think some other spec
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  660. ralphm Yeah, the reference to that is missing, but the example shows that spec used for thumbnails.
  661. ralphm rion: the reason for this is extensive OS support in mobile
  662. rion I see
  663. ralphm Then again, this spec is a work in progress (please provide feedback) and it says "SHOULD".
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  666. rion anyway I'll try to change that.
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  721. lovetox what was the intention on putting the timezone in another tag
  722. lovetox https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0202.html#protocol
  723. lovetox to use this xep you need a dateTime profile parser
  724. lovetox if you have that parser you can handle all timezones already
  725. lovetox in the dateTime profile string
  726. lovetox why put it into another tag
  727. lovetox just so it gets harder to parse?
  728. lovetox additionally it adds confusen
  729. lovetox because first instinct of any sane person is that i dont end the utc timestamp with a Z
  730. lovetox because its in a <utc> tag
  731. lovetox it redundant
  732. lovetox but then the xep says it MUST be conform to the dateTime profile, and the dateTime profile says it is mandatory to have a timezone
  733. Zash I think there was a reason but I'm not sure I remember it well enough to describe it
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  735. lovetox Then you end up with situations like <time xmlns='urn:xmpp:time'> <tzo>Z</tzo> <utc>2006-12-19T17:58:35Z</utc> </time>
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  737. Zash Fun fact: Prosodys timestamp lib doesn't preserve the timezone from the timestamp.
  738. Zash Nor can it generate timestamps with anything but Z as timezone
  739. lovetox what do you mean with preserve
  740. lovetox what is the source?
  741. lovetox i hope you dont mean it alters the timestamp the users sends
  742. Zash I think the reason for the separate tags was something like the timestamp being just a timestamp and the timezone in it doesn't mean anything
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  744. Zash Prosody doesn't touch urn:xmpp:time
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  747. lovetox then what time does it not preserve, in what situation does prosody need to generate a timestamp with a timezone?
  748. Zash How do you search for previous discussions on this topic when every page like http://logs.xmpp.org/summit/2013-01-28/ has "show time in local time, rather than in UTC"
  749. lovetox the only reason i see for this is, so a client does not have to calculate UTC
  750. lovetox but then again he has to calculate local time instead
  751. lovetox ..
  752. lovetox you need all your datetime lib stuff to use this xep
  753. lovetox showing the utc+tz to the user seems useless
  754. lovetox so you have to calculate it to the localtime of the contact
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  756. Zash lovetox: how about https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/peptzo.html
  757. lovetox thats most of the time the point, where you depend on a thirdparty lib, because datetime stuff is just crazy
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  759. Zash if parsing the timestamp gives you an integer, then you want to offset separate
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  762. daniel > lovetox: how about https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/peptzo.html Oh that's actually cool
  763. lovetox this is rightfully never advanced
  764. lovetox i dont see the use for this at all
  765. lovetox should i really subscribe to that, then i get it on each connect from all of my contacts
  766. daniel Because people ask me to display the time zone of a contact - which I get because you want to know if your buddy slash coworker is awake
  767. daniel But doing the IQ request you have to update that again and again
  768. lovetox and entity time does provide it since 10 years
  769. lovetox how often do you change timezones?
  770. lovetox that you need live updates on it the second it happens
  771. daniel You don't know. That's the point
  772. daniel You don't know how often you need to update it
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  774. lovetox thats not a reason why i want constantly updates
  775. lovetox 99% useless
  776. lovetox show the timezone in the details page, and do a query if someone access it
  777. lovetox does the job fine
  778. daniel I imagine a UI where it warns you a bit more prominently if the time zone a) diverges a lot from yours and b) it is night time at your contacts
  779. daniel Can only be a small icon
  780. daniel But I don't want to hide it in an extra page
  781. daniel Like turn the send button into a some sort of 😴 symbol
  782. daniel Something not intrusive
  783. lovetox i think there will be a point in the future where we have to cut back on these subscriptions
  784. daniel But I nice nudge not to annoy your international fiends
  785. SamWhited That is the feature I miss most about Google Talk; it had the little red phone icon when people were likely to be asleep.
  786. daniel > i think there will be a point in the future where we have to cut back on these subscriptions Yes. But that is independent of that
  787. SamWhited It was fantastic when traveling
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  789. Zash Receiving the same updates over and over is a problem in itself that we'll probably want to fix at some point
  790. lovetox of course notification is always better than poll
  791. Zash Eg look at "pubsub since" and the like
  792. daniel Those omemo keys make more traffic than a little tzo
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  794. daniel And yes that is something we at some point need to think about
  795. lovetox i also get a little, mood, activity, location, usernickname, useravatar
  796. Zash https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0312.html
  797. daniel But that doesn't excuse switching to poll
  798. Zash Not sure I like relative time tho
  799. lovetox but how do you want to tacle that
  800. lovetox it would mean clients have to store the state localy over restarts
  801. lovetox if the server only sends new stuff
  802. daniel I'm already doing that for a lot of things
  803. daniel Avatar, omemo device ids
  804. lovetox yes, although, for device ids only because of bad server implementations
  805. daniel Yes and the avater for the Same reason
  806. daniel But the point is that storing ain't no rocket science
  807. lovetox really? avatar has to be cached because otherwise it would be a waste
  808. lovetox its a different node we have to poll
  809. lovetox and we save that when we cache
  810. lovetox yes im not saying storing that info is bad, of course its not hard
  811. lovetox but then we would need some switch, that says, give me from all of my clients the current state
  812. lovetox when im losing this store
  813. lovetox *contacts not clients
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  815. daniel Yeah I might revitalize the tzo pep xeo
  816. daniel *xep
  817. daniel I mean as you've guess from my elaborate explanation I have the UI all worked out
  818. daniel Just the poll problem bothered me
  819. Zash I don't have any state: <presence><{caps}c .../></p> I have cached state from 1h ago: <presence><{caps}c .../><ago xmlns='urn:xmpp:ago:0' secs='86400'/></p>
  820. Zash But as I said, I don't like relative times like that
  821. Zash Not that exact timestamps are perfect either
  822. Zash Something that identifies the last id of every pubsub event you've seen wouldn't really work either
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  824. Zash However, MattJs magic device tracking might save us?
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  833. MattJ As always
  834. ralphm One thing I like about Slack is when you do an @channel it says how many people in how many timezones will get a notification. Are you sure?
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  837. Zash Does it? Haven't noticed
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  846. edhelas Can someone enlighten me on this comment? https://github.com/movim/movim/issues/711#issuecomment-418456713
  847. edhelas To me it seems that the XMPP MUC services are filtering content of presences, is my assumption right?
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  850. Zash MUC should filter out MUC-related namespaces that it didn't add itself. Caps and stuff should not be touched.
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  857. Link Mauve rion, oh, I missed this table in SIMS, mandating AAC and H.264 in XMPP sets a very nasty precedent wrt patents.
  858. Link Mauve It means you can’t support that without paying the MPEG-LA.
  859. Link Mauve I’d like XMPP to stay possible to implement without having to pay anything.
  860. rion and I'm fighting all the evening to write aac from Qt. no luck.. :(
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  862. Link Mauve Opus is definitely superior, both in quality of compression and because it doesn’t require you to be subject to patents.
  863. Link Mauve I’d recommend using this codec.
  864. rion opus works for me. but still in mp4 container?
  865. Link Mauve Ogg is generally used for it.
  866. rion good. I like opus. I use it for audio calls in Psi.
  867. Link Mauve Yeah, it’s the current best codec for voice.
  868. rion so if it will be used for audio messages. then I need less binaries =)
  869. rion So I guess opus has to be mentioned in 385
  870. Link Mauve rion, do you implement the various WebRTC mandatory specifications for audio calls? I’m currently working on Jingle in another client and I’d like to do interoperability tests.
  871. Link Mauve rion, yes, you can start a discussion on standards@ maybe.
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  873. rion Link Mauve: it's jingle in Psi.
  874. Link Mauve Having a codec which is patent-encumbered in most parts of the world in a XEP is a very bad idea.
  875. Link Mauve rion, I know, but do you also implement e.g. XEP-0339, XEP-0338, XEP-0294, etc.?
  876. Link Mauve XEP-0320 is also pretty important.
  877. rion I'd like to. I do my bests but my spare time is quite limited :(
  878. Link Mauve Ok.
  879. Link Mauve Do you support ICE btw?
  880. rion yes
  881. Link Mauve Nice.
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  883. rion Audio calls in Psi was initially implemented by Justin Kerneges. I did just a few changes to ICE and rewrote media library to be compatible with gstreamer-1.0. That was many years ago. So many new audio calls related xeps are not supported.
  884. Link Mauve Ok, makes sense.
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  887. Link Mauve I’ve had to learn a bunch of that recently for this project, so if you ever come around to implement them you can ask me anything you don’t understand.
  888. rion Link Mauve: thanks
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