Seve, I’d like to append that Muclumbus now lives on the search.jabber.network domain and has seen some minor extensions, such as [software version and service type statistics](https://search.jabber.network/stats)✎
Seve
You got it, jonas’
Ge0rG
when is newsletter day again?
jonas’
Seve, I’d like to append that the [Public Chat Room search Muclumbus](https://search.jabber.network/) now lives on the search.jabber.network domain and has seen some minor extensions, such as [software version and service type statistics](https://search.jabber.network/stats) ✏
jonas’
Ge0rG, 1st of month
Ge0rG
Damn, I wanted to write a yaxim 0.9.3 release announcement
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Seve
Still in time :P
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Ge0rG
Seve: but I don't have the time to write it.
Ge0rG
maybe tomorrow on the train, unless I take the automobile.
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moparisthebest
jonas’: is there a way to search which domains are running which software listed on there
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jonas’
moparisthebest, not from the webinterface
jonas’
the database has the information though
moparisthebest
Ah bummer, thanks
jonas’
moparisthebest, anything in particular you want to know?
moparisthebest
The echo services
jonas’
ah
jonas’
they’re echo.some.domain typically; I heard that some ejabberd versions had those enabled by default
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moparisthebest
so I wrote https://github.com/moparisthebest/xmpp-echo-self and host it at echo.burtrum.org but didn't know anything else remotely similar existed
moparisthebest
was curious what they did and if I could maybe use them instead :)
jonas’
apparently, they’re open to the world ;-)
jonas’
but I wouldn’t rely on the service.
moparisthebest
well I meant in a 'something else had already been written' sense
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daniel
Why aren't mam messages type=headline?
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Ge0rG
Yes.
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Ge0rG
I think this is due to most XEP authors not explicitly thinking about message type.
Ge0rG
And around a year ago, I came to the realization that type=headline would be the best for MAM with RFC6120 routing rules
daniel
Well I'm glad we talked about it
MattJ
PRs welcome :)
daniel
MattJ: to the xep?
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daniel
I'm happy to do that
MattJ
Does it currently recommend a message type? or does it just not mention it?
jonas’
inb4 the examples are just type-less (i.e. normal)
jonas’
yupp
daniel
So we can change it without a ns bump?
Zash
How do you like having MAM results in MAM?
daniel
Lol
Zash
and carbons?
daniel
Yes that's the reason for making it headline
MattJ
One reason
Ge0rG
Can I have Carbons of MAM results please?
daniel
Mam + carbons are two reason 😊
Ge0rG
headline is not immune to Carbons.
MattJ
I'm curious if any clients check the message type though
Ge0rG
the actual reason I see is message re-routing when the receiving client disconnects
Zash
We almost need a type that's explicitly for non-message data
Ge0rG
Zash: except we can't.
Zash
XMPP 2.0!
Zash
Anyways, this ties into the Carbons / MAM rule of normal messages IFF they have <body>
daniel
but headlines are already ignored by mam and carbon, aren’t they?
Zash
daniel: What if I want MAM of pubsub events?
daniel
i think what we really need is a matrix like blockchain of messages
Ge0rG
0280 doesn't even mention headline.
Zash
It's not a chat system, it's a real time distributed graph database
Zash: server notifications for you to read or for pubsub stuff?
Zash
Ge0rG: Stuff like s2s cert failures. Pubsub stuff include a RSS/Atom feed.
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Ge0rG
is that a yes or no?
Zash
Ge0rG: I don't understand the question
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Zash
I'm using headline messages for things. Poezio does a very good job with showing them.
Ge0rG
Zash: so your headline messages have a body.
Zash
Correct
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ralphm
Pubsub doesn't require headline, but usually people choose that to make the notifications transient/volatile. E.g. prevent storage in MAM.
ralphm
Body elements in them are nice for having a fallback payload.
ralphm
So that clients can still display something
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daniel
yeah i think that mid term you might want the pubsub notifications that generated automatically (like pep sending it on every login) to be headline. and 'proper' pubsub notifications to be type=normal and land in mam
Zash
There's a configuration option for that.
Zash
PubSub has everything!
daniel
Cool
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Ge0rG
In theory, Carbons should be headline as well by that logic.
MattJ
Pubsub has everything, and MUC has everything else
MattJ
and it's still not enough
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ralphm
That's why we're doing MIX, right?
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Ge0rG
Because it combines the complexity of pubsub with the bad design of muc?
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ralphm
I don't agree that a) pubsub is complex, b) MIX is badly designed. So, no.
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rionis eating popcorn and waiting when mix becomes draft standard
moparisthebest
that might end up being a LOT of popcorn
ralphm
Well, that might take a while, indeed. Multiple implementations might help. My team is working on this and I intend to relay some (more) feedback.
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Ge0rG
ralphm: that would be awesome indeed. I'd like to be proven wrong.
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rion
btw does anyone have a voice messages xep in mind? I know Conversation implements something, but I'd like to pass some metadata with the message like amplitude histogram for example.
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ralphm
Oh, interesting. I'd suggest looking at the SIMS spec, and adding something analogous to thumbnails.
ralphm
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0385.html
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rion
I guess I have to implement xep-0385 for Psi-2.0 and propose a change to the xep afterwards :)
rion
let be so
ralphm
I don't think adding a histogram requires changing XEP-0385. That said, the specification should be worked out a bit better.
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rion
"Table 2: Mandated encoding and in-line display support." -> Format/Container -> mpeg4
Hm I implemented my voice messages with Matroska..
Ge0rG
You can also add inline image thumbnails. There is https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0264.html and I think some other spec
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ralphm
Yeah, the reference to that is missing, but the example shows that spec used for thumbnails.
ralphm
rion: the reason for this is extensive OS support in mobile
rion
I see
ralphm
Then again, this spec is a work in progress (please provide feedback) and it says "SHOULD".
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rion
anyway I'll try to change that.
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lovetox
what was the intention on putting the timezone in another tag
to use this xep you need a dateTime profile parser
lovetox
if you have that parser you can handle all timezones already
lovetox
in the dateTime profile string
lovetox
why put it into another tag
lovetox
just so it gets harder to parse?
lovetox
additionally it adds confusen
lovetox
because first instinct of any sane person is that i dont end the utc timestamp with a Z
lovetox
because its in a <utc> tag
lovetox
it redundant
lovetox
but then the xep says it MUST be conform to the dateTime profile, and the dateTime profile says it is mandatory to have a timezone
Zash
I think there was a reason but I'm not sure I remember it well enough to describe it
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lovetox
Then you end up with situations like
<time xmlns='urn:xmpp:time'>
<tzo>Z</tzo>
<utc>2006-12-19T17:58:35Z</utc>
</time>
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Zash
Fun fact: Prosodys timestamp lib doesn't preserve the timezone from the timestamp.
Zash
Nor can it generate timestamps with anything but Z as timezone
lovetox
what do you mean with preserve
lovetox
what is the source?
lovetox
i hope you dont mean it alters the timestamp the users sends
Zash
I think the reason for the separate tags was something like the timestamp being just a timestamp and the timezone in it doesn't mean anything
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Zash
Prosody doesn't touch urn:xmpp:time
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lovetox
then what time does it not preserve, in what situation does prosody need to generate a timestamp with a timezone?
Zash
How do you search for previous discussions on this topic when every page like http://logs.xmpp.org/summit/2013-01-28/ has "show time in local time, rather than in UTC"
lovetox
the only reason i see for this is, so a client does not have to calculate UTC
lovetox
but then again he has to calculate local time instead
lovetox
..
lovetox
you need all your datetime lib stuff to use this xep
lovetox
showing the utc+tz to the user seems useless
lovetox
so you have to calculate it to the localtime of the contact
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Zash
lovetox: how about https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/peptzo.html
lovetox
thats most of the time the point, where you depend on a thirdparty lib, because datetime stuff is just crazy
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Zash
if parsing the timestamp gives you an integer, then you want to offset separate
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daniel
> lovetox: how about https://xmpp.org/extensions/inbox/peptzo.html
Oh that's actually cool
lovetox
this is rightfully never advanced
lovetox
i dont see the use for this at all
lovetox
should i really subscribe to that, then i get it on each connect from all of my contacts
daniel
Because people ask me to display the time zone of a contact - which I get because you want to know if your buddy slash coworker is awake
daniel
But doing the IQ request you have to update that again and again
lovetox
and entity time does provide it since 10 years
lovetox
how often do you change timezones?
lovetox
that you need live updates on it the second it happens
daniel
You don't know. That's the point
daniel
You don't know how often you need to update it
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lovetox
thats not a reason why i want constantly updates
lovetox
99% useless
lovetox
show the timezone in the details page, and do a query if someone access it
lovetox
does the job fine
daniel
I imagine a UI where it warns you a bit more prominently if the time zone a) diverges a lot from yours and b) it is night time at your contacts
daniel
Can only be a small icon
daniel
But I don't want to hide it in an extra page
daniel
Like turn the send button into a some sort of 😴 symbol
daniel
Something not intrusive
lovetox
i think there will be a point in the future where we have to cut back on these subscriptions
daniel
But I nice nudge not to annoy your international fiends
SamWhited
That is the feature I miss most about Google Talk; it had the little red phone icon when people were likely to be asleep.
daniel
> i think there will be a point in the future where we have to cut back on these subscriptions
Yes. But that is independent of that
SamWhited
It was fantastic when traveling
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Zash
Receiving the same updates over and over is a problem in itself that we'll probably want to fix at some point
lovetox
of course notification is always better than poll
Zash
Eg look at "pubsub since" and the like
daniel
Those omemo keys make more traffic than a little tzo
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daniel
And yes that is something we at some point need to think about
lovetox
i also get a little, mood, activity, location, usernickname, useravatar
Zash
https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0312.html
daniel
But that doesn't excuse switching to poll
Zash
Not sure I like relative time tho
lovetox
but how do you want to tacle that
lovetox
it would mean clients have to store the state localy over restarts
lovetox
if the server only sends new stuff
daniel
I'm already doing that for a lot of things
daniel
Avatar, omemo device ids
lovetox
yes, although, for device ids only because of bad server implementations
daniel
Yes and the avater for the Same reason
daniel
But the point is that storing ain't no rocket science
lovetox
really? avatar has to be cached because otherwise it would be a waste
lovetox
its a different node we have to poll
lovetox
and we save that when we cache
lovetox
yes im not saying storing that info is bad, of course its not hard
lovetox
but then we would need some switch, that says, give me from all of my clients the current state
lovetox
when im losing this store
lovetox
*contacts not clients
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daniel
Yeah I might revitalize the tzo pep xeo
daniel
*xep
daniel
I mean as you've guess from my elaborate explanation I have the UI all worked out
daniel
Just the poll problem bothered me
Zash
I don't have any state: <presence><{caps}c .../></p>
I have cached state from 1h ago: <presence><{caps}c .../><ago xmlns='urn:xmpp:ago:0' secs='86400'/></p>
Zash
But as I said, I don't like relative times like that
Zash
Not that exact timestamps are perfect either
Zash
Something that identifies the last id of every pubsub event you've seen wouldn't really work either
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Zash
However, MattJs magic device tracking might save us?
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MattJ
As always
ralphm
One thing I like about Slack is when you do an @channel it says how many people in how many timezones will get a notification. Are you sure?
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Zash
Does it? Haven't noticed
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edhelas
Can someone enlighten me on this comment? https://github.com/movim/movim/issues/711#issuecomment-418456713
edhelas
To me it seems that the XMPP MUC services are filtering content of presences, is my assumption right?
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Zash
MUC should filter out MUC-related namespaces that it didn't add itself. Caps and stuff should not be touched.
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Link Mauve
rion, oh, I missed this table in SIMS, mandating AAC and H.264 in XMPP sets a very nasty precedent wrt patents.
Link Mauve
It means you can’t support that without paying the MPEG-LA.
Link Mauve
I’d like XMPP to stay possible to implement without having to pay anything.
rion
and I'm fighting all the evening to write aac from Qt. no luck.. :(
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Link Mauve
Opus is definitely superior, both in quality of compression and because it doesn’t require you to be subject to patents.
Link Mauve
I’d recommend using this codec.
rion
opus works for me. but still in mp4 container?
Link Mauve
Ogg is generally used for it.
rion
good. I like opus. I use it for audio calls in Psi.
Link Mauve
Yeah, it’s the current best codec for voice.
rion
so if it will be used for audio messages. then I need less binaries =)
rion
So I guess opus has to be mentioned in 385
Link Mauve
rion, do you implement the various WebRTC mandatory specifications for audio calls? I’m currently working on Jingle in another client and I’d like to do interoperability tests.
Link Mauve
rion, yes, you can start a discussion on standards@ maybe.
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rion
Link Mauve: it's jingle in Psi.
Link Mauve
Having a codec which is patent-encumbered in most parts of the world in a XEP is a very bad idea.
Link Mauve
rion, I know, but do you also implement e.g. XEP-0339, XEP-0338, XEP-0294, etc.?
Link Mauve
XEP-0320 is also pretty important.
rion
I'd like to. I do my bests but my spare time is quite limited :(
Link Mauve
Ok.
Link Mauve
Do you support ICE btw?
rion
yes
Link Mauve
Nice.
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rion
Audio calls in Psi was initially implemented by Justin Kerneges. I did just a few changes to ICE and rewrote media library to be compatible with gstreamer-1.0. That was many years ago. So many new audio calls related xeps are not supported.
Link Mauve
Ok, makes sense.
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Link Mauve
I’ve had to learn a bunch of that recently for this project, so if you ever come around to implement them you can ask me anything you don’t understand.